Serious Sam Studio Exec Joins Anti-Windows 8 Chorus

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Serious Sam Studio Exec Joins Anti-Windows 8 Chorus

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Gabe Newell isn't the only one who thinks Windows 8 is a catastrophe.

You know who Gabe Newell is. You know who Notch is. You may not know who Alen Ladavac is, but as the chief technology officer of Serious Sam studio Croteam, it's fair to say that he knows a thing or two about making games, too. And he recently added his concerns to those already expressed by Notch and Newell that Windows 8 could be very bad news indeed for PC gaming.

"Gabe Newel did not overreact," Ladavac wrote in a message on Steam. "What you don't see here is that, under the hood, the new tiled UI is a means for Microsoft to lock Windows applications into a walled garden, much like the one on iOS. There is this 'small detail' that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation: One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!"

"I cannot even begin to stress out just how horrible this idea is! There is no side-loading, except for corporate use inside one company, and that works only on the enterprise edition of Windows 8," he continued. "Do we all understand what that means? You cannot download an application from the Internet and run it on your computer. You have to get it from Microsoft's store. Even if it is a free app!"

That in itself isn't necessarily a problem, he said, noting that it might actually be nice to have a "common hub" from which to download software. The problem is that anything wanting space on that hub will have to be certified by Microsoft, which means a mandatory adherence to whatever requirements Microsoft wishes to impose. And while desktop applications are "theoretically" exempt, as he put it, he said the system "looks more and more like just a foot-in-the-door technique."

"A large number of developers have expressed their concern with possibility that, probably in Windows 9 or something like that, the ability to get even desktop apps in any other way than through Windows app store may very well be removed," he wrote. "When that happens it will be too late."

"Certification is a broken concept and should be abolished," he stated. "Now, while in current state Windows 8 do look like they support plain desktop apps seamlessly, the removal of start menu and use of 'charms' even on the desktop looks like a pretty blunt attempt to force users to 'get used' to the tiled UI. It would be fine by me if it wasn't for the aforementioned certification issue."

I'm not technically savvy enough to express any kind of confident opinion about what Windows 8 will or won't do to the PC gaming space, but I do know that Microsoft will go where the money is, and both Apple and Valve have demonstrated the value in controlling access to software. And when Gabe Newell, Notch and the Serious Sam guy all express the same deeply-rooted concerns about the future of Windows as a gaming platform, I can't help but think that maybe there's a good reason to worry.

Source: Steam Forums

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So, Steam Apps won't run if I launch them through steam?

Oh, they will? Right then, yet another game developer to flatly ignore.

Oh hey. Guess what my windows 8 does.

It runs any game.

Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.

Have these developers even really done any research? Are they really that mad that not having access to the app store is going to ruin their day? I mean, it forces you to install games just like you would on any other windows os! HORRIBLE.

Not to mention that you can again pin it to the start program so that way when the computer starts up you can instantly jump to it.

I have all of my games on tiles. Even Fighting is Magic. Seriously windows 8 isn't bad at all. I love it and I find nothing wrong so far

He Anti-Win8 because something Microsoft could, but most likely will never do in the future?
Really not because the OS itself?

taciturnCandid:
Oh hey. Guess what my windows 8 does.

It runs any game.

Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.

Have these developers even really done any research? Are they really that mad that not having access to the app store is going to ruin their day? I mean, it forces you to install games just like you would on any other windows os! HORRIBLE.

Not to mention that you can again pin it to the start program so that way when the computer starts up you can instantly jump to it.

I have all of my games on tiles. Even Fighting is Magic. Seriously windows 8 isn't bad at all. I love it and I find nothing wrong so far

The issue developers seem to be having is with certification. I personally dont know what about the W8 certification has them in an uproar like this, but if it goes along the tune of what we hear about XBL certification then its going to become a very big problem for developers in very short order.

Though as i say, i only hear of theese problems, and have yet to confirm any.

Serious Sam 3:
Butt
Fuck
Enterprise edition

gigastar:

The issue developers seem to be having is with certification. I personally dont know what about the W8 certification has them in an uproar like this, but if it goes along the tune of what we hear about XBL certification then its going to become a very big problem for developers in very short order.

Though as i say, i only hear of these problems, and have yet to confirm any.

For one the certification costs buckets of money for Microsoft to even look at it, then and here is the kicker. Your code must have NO software errors. None. Nadda. 0. Yeah thats right. Windows 8 certification wont allow any game more advanced than Pong to run on it!

There is some more but those two are the big uns.

That face looks very familiar.

As for reaction to Windows 8 "foot in door tactics."

Regardless of what M$ does or doesn't plan to do to developers in the long run I won't be using this shitbox OS. I'll be waiting till Win 9 when they come back to their damn senses and releases a worthy OS.

What an idiot.

Lets have a look at a portion of my Windows 8 Start screen shall we?

Microsoft have their store to host WinRT apps that follow their design language and technical requirements in order to provide a consistent experience for specific devices. They also want the interface to be unified across all devices to help with having a consistent experience. The Microsoft store allows the same apps to be available on multiple platforms therefore helping the unified interface succeed. The open nature on Windows 8 is still there. It just has an additional environment alongside it.

SpAc3man:
What an idiot.

Lets have a look at a portion of my Windows 8 Start screen shall we?

Microsoft have their store to host WinRT apps that follow their design language and technical requirements in order to provide a consistent experience for specific devices. They also want the interface to be unified across all devices to help with having a consistent experience. The Microsoft store allows the same apps to be available on multiple platforms therefore helping the unified interface succeed. The open nature on Windows 8 is still there. It just has an additional environment alongside it.

Let's see anything Unity engine based & I'll consider your argument

Zombie_Moogle:

Let's see anything Unity engine based & I'll consider your argument

What has the Unity engine got to do with it?

This the forth brain hemorrhage I've seen from MS today. I just need to go to sleep it seems...

DVS BSTrD:
Serious Sam 3:
Butt
Fuck
Enterprise edition

I remember when you had good puns. :-(

SpAc3man:
What an idiot.

Lets have a look at a portion of my Windows 8 Start screen shall we?

Microsoft have their store to host WinRT apps that follow their design language and technical requirements in order to provide a consistent experience for specific devices. They also want the interface to be unified across all devices to help with having a consistent experience. The Microsoft store allows the same apps to be available on multiple platforms therefore helping the unified interface succeed. The open nature on Windows 8 is still there. It just has an additional environment alongside it.

He's worried about the fact that MS is going to pull an Apple and start closing down the OS. That would be a real shame as MS knew how to make products that were technically closed, but still open enough to develop for without issues (sans licensing).

taciturnCandid:
Oh hey. Guess what my windows 8 does.

It runs any game.

Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.

Have these developers even really done any research? Are they really that mad that not having access to the app store is going to ruin their day? I mean, it forces you to install games just like you would on any other windows os! HORRIBLE.

Not to mention that you can again pin it to the start program so that way when the computer starts up you can instantly jump to it.

I have all of my games on tiles. Even Fighting is Magic. Seriously windows 8 isn't bad at all. I love it and I find nothing wrong so far

The OS itself is pretty damned sweet and worth the upgrade from XP[1] or Vista [3]. It's the implications of what MS wants to do in the future that's worrying people, specifically the developers.

OT- My issue with Windows 8 is Secure Boot, which is a whole 'nother issue. For gaming, Win8 is perfectly fine, even better as Win8 uses less RAM then 7 (we're factoring in the link that's in footnote 2).

Once again, 70 USD to get up to speed on the latest OS (Pro edition to boot!), that happens to be where most games are played, isn't that much; if anything, it is a damned fine good deal.

EDIT- 70 USD is for Windows 8 Professional. Makes it a much better deal.

[1] All you XP advocates either upgrade to Windows 7 or this, because the less bloated OS excuse doesn't work anymore.[2]
[3] You won't be shafted, but for 70 USD (talking Windows 8 Professional here), it's a damned fine deal.

thesilentman:
This the forth brain hemorrhage I've seen from MS today. I just need to go to sleep it seems...

DVS BSTrD:
Serious Sam 3:
Butt
Fuck
Enterprise edition

I remember when you had good puns. :-(

With all these hemorrhages you've been getting I'm surprised you remember anything -_^.
I didn't have much to go on here.

DVS BSTrD:

thesilentman:
This the forth brain hemorrhage I've seen from MS today. I just need to go to sleep it seems...

DVS BSTrD:
Serious Sam 3:
Butt
Fuck
Enterprise edition

I remember when you had good puns. :-(

With all these hemorrhages you've been getting I'm surprised you remember anything -_^.
I didn't have much to go on here.

As am I. I guess MS' stupidity affects my common sense and leaves my memories and intelligence intact. o.0
Wait, what?

Wait wait. People are calling this guy dumb for saying this? People were practically making flags and waving them out in their yards when Gabe Newell said the same damn thing. I don't get it. I guess if it's Valve, it must be a message from the gods or something.

Anyways, yah, Ladavac's a cool guy, he posted a lot on the Serious Sam boards before release, and Win8 doesn't seem to really be making any big splash in either direction so I guess it'll just be there, a few years later Win9 will come out and hopefully it'll make some decent improvements.

I'm all for developers speaking out against Windows 8! In fact, I think I'll just stick with 7 until Microsoft changes their practices.

thesilentman:
The OS itself is pretty damned sweet and worth the upgrade from XP[1] or Vista [3]. It's the implications of what MS wants to do in the future that's worrying people, specifically the developers.

OT- My issue with Windows 8 is Secure Boot, which is a whole 'nother issue. For gaming, Win8 is perfectly fine, even better as Win8 uses less RAM then 7 (we're factoring in the link that's in footnote 2).

Once again, 70 USD to get up to speed on the latest OS, that happens to be where most games are played, isn't that much; if anything, it is a damned fine good deal.

Actually it is 40 USD if you get it by march.

15 if you got a 7 pc recently

[1] All you XP advocates either upgrade to Windows 7 or this, because the less bloated OS excuse doesn't work anymore.[2]
[3] You won't be shafted, but for 70 USD, it's a damned fine deal.

Okay, I'm getting sick and tired of this. It's not going to hurt gaming. Windows 8 is going to do nothing to gaming. You can still run Steam and all of your other games through the desktop portion of Windows 8 and here's a picture of me doing so;
http://dewman001.tumblr.com/image/35185898481

Can we please stop bitching now that Windows 8 is out in the market?

taciturnCandid:

thesilentman:
The OS itself is pretty damned sweet and worth the upgrade from XP[1] or Vista [3]. It's the implications of what MS wants to do in the future that's worrying people, specifically the developers.

OT- My issue with Windows 8 is Secure Boot, which is a whole 'nother issue. For gaming, Win8 is perfectly fine, even better as Win8 uses less RAM then 7 (we're factoring in the link that's in footnote 2).

Once again, 70 USD to get up to speed on the latest OS, that happens to be where most games are played, isn't that much; if anything, it is a damned fine good deal.

Actually it is 40 USD if you get it by march January.

15 if you got a 7 pc recently

Fix'd for you. I also went by the volume (user disk, not OEM) license of Windows 8 Professional, something I should edit my post to say.

[1] All you XP advocates either upgrade to Windows 7 or this, because the less bloated OS excuse doesn't work anymore.[2]
[3] You won't be shafted, but for 70 USD, it's a damned fine deal.

thesilentman:

taciturnCandid:

thesilentman:
The OS itself is pretty damned sweet and worth the upgrade from XP[1] or Vista [3]. It's the implications of what MS wants to do in the future that's worrying people, specifically the developers.

OT- My issue with Windows 8 is Secure Boot, which is a whole 'nother issue. For gaming, Win8 is perfectly fine, even better as Win8 uses less RAM then 7 (we're factoring in the link that's in footnote 2).

Once again, 70 USD to get up to speed on the latest OS, that happens to be where most games are played, isn't that much; if anything, it is a damned fine good deal.

Actually it is 40 USD if you get it by march January.

15 if you got a 7 pc recently

Fix'd for you. I also went by the volume (user disk, not OEM) license of Windows 8 Professional, something I should edit my post to say.

As soon as Dreamscene works, I'm getting it =D

[1] All you XP advocates either upgrade to Windows 7 or this, because the less bloated OS excuse doesn't work anymore.[2]
[3] You won't be shafted, but for 70 USD, it's a damned fine deal.

DewMan001:
Okay, I'm getting sick and tired of this. It's not going to hurt gaming. Windows 8 is going to do nothing to gaming. You can still run Steam and all of your other games through the desktop portion of Windows 8 and here's a picture of me doing so;
http://dewman001.tumblr.com/image/35185898481

Can we please stop bitching now that Windows 8 is out in the market?

Implications, implications, implications! People don't want MS to become Apple in the next few years, hence mass panic from the gaming industry.

DewMan001:
Okay, I'm getting sick and tired of this. It's not going to hurt gaming. Windows 8 is going to do nothing to gaming. You can still run Steam and all of your other games through the desktop portion of Windows 8 and here's a picture of me doing so;
http://dewman001.tumblr.com/image/35185898481

I see destructoid favicons in your browser! <3

thesilentman:
Implications, implications, implications! People don't want MS to become Apple in the next few years, hence mass panic from the gaming industry.

Okay, instead of an anti-Win 8 campaign, how about an anti App Store campaign. Plus I'm fairly sure that Microsoft isn't in any sort of hurry to ditch the desktop area. To do so would not only cause mass outrage from the game industry but would also lead to a mass exodus from the enterprise and business world who need to use Windows to run their business programs.

I still don't get it... personally, I haven't used Win 8 and I'm really not interested in doing so, but my friend tells me that he can install and run each and every single game he has, Steam or not, so... I'm seriously confused, what's the big deal?, is it really necessary to go through the Windows Store to make any software for it?, can't I just install anythin I want and call it a day?, can't anyone just keep making software for Win 7 and add compatibility to Win 8 and bypass their store?...

So many questions and I'm still pretty confused...

DewMan001:

thesilentman:
Implications, implications, implications! People don't want MS to become Apple in the next few years, hence mass panic from the gaming industry.

Okay, instead of an anti-Win 8 campaign, how about an anti App Store campaign. Plus I'm fairly sure that Microsoft isn't in any sort of hurry to ditch the desktop area. To do so would not only cause mass outrage from the game industry but would also lead to a mass exodus from the enterprise and business world who need to use Windows to run their business programs.

The thing is, MS is going for an integration of mobile and desktop computing. The idea is going to take a while to kill in MS. The funny thing is that Linux has an app store too. But Linux's philosophy is 'make a personal system', whereas Windows' is 'the consumer should be able to use this thing without training.' Those two, rather famously, are NOT mutual.

SupahGamuh:
I still don't get it... personally, I haven't used Win 8 and I'm really not interested in doing so, but my friend tells me that he can install and run each and every single game he has, Steam or not, so... I'm seriously confused, what's the big deal?, is it really necessary to go through the Windows Store to make any software for it?, can't I just install anythin I want and call it a day?, can't anyone just keep making software for Win 7 and add compatibility to Win 8 and bypass their store?...

So many questions and I'm still pretty confused...

The only problem is that many people are having kneejerk reactions that MS is going down Apple's path. For the openness of Win8, it's there, but if you want to make apps that work on a Windows 8 tablet, be prepared to go through the Store. Everything else can be installed the way we're used to on Windows systems.

So for gaming you'll be fine. Not unless MS follows Apple's thinking, which is very unlikely knowing MS' main target: the enterprise and business sector.

SupahGamuh:
can't anyone just keep making software for Win 7 and add compatibility to Win 8 and bypass their store?...

For now, yes. The concern is that Microsoft may one day break out the black turtle necks and put an end to Windows as an open platform.

thesilentman:
So for gaming you'll be fine. Not unless MS follows Apple's thinking, which is very unlikely knowing MS' main target: the enterprise and business sector.

That's an important thing to note - microsoft can only close off their OSes so far before it has a major deterimental effect on their core markets.

If too many productivity and business/enterprise software developers/publishers tell MS where to stick their certification they won't be able to fence off their OSes without taking a major hit in the markets they rely on. Hell, just getting into a pissing contest with Autodesk and Adobe alone could cost them their market share in several industries.

taciturnCandid:
Oh hey. Guess what my windows 8 does.

It runs any game.

Guess what else I can do? Pin any shortcut to the start screen. I can even pin shortcut to random files.

You know what i could do with windows 95? all the same you mentioned.

Windows 8 is an attempt to copy IOS, the worst OS for general usage.

Strazdas:
Windows 8 is an attempt to copy IOS, the worst OS for general usage.

The funny thing is, iOS is still shit when it comes to the functionality. Compare the iPad and a tablet running the full version of Windows 8. MS gets money for that alone, the ability to install applications not in the store and to productively work on it, something I've wanted for years.

jollybarracuda:
Wait wait. People are calling this guy dumb for saying this? People were practically making flags and waving them out in their yards when Gabe Newell said the same damn thing.

Funny how that works, eh?

And as Ladavac made clear, the problem isn't what Windows 8 is doing right now - it's what it or some successor might do in the future if Microsoft continues moving toward the "walled garden." Everyone calling him an idiot would do well to remember that he's not some random crank, and he's not alone.

I've got a free license from my college that I've been considering installing. From what I hear the transition is seamless and leaves everything intact. It would be a shame for me to lose the custom desktop I recently created...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e259/geneyusskev/Deusexdesktop.jpg?t=1352267906

I'm not one to jump on hate bandwagons, I'm just unsure of what surprises I will experience when I do upgrade.

I myself am using windows 8 and take I can safely say that it is actually BETTER for gaming! Better DirectX integration and optimization plus less OS overhead (It's well on the XP side of the vista/XP resource requirements divide) means more FPS on the same hardware! Plus the much better explorer, a built in shortcut to an elevated command prompt and a task manager that is actually USEFUL and you have yourself a brilliant operating system.

Also: My entire steam library runs happily on it.

Andy Chalk:

jollybarracuda:
Wait wait. People are calling this guy dumb for saying this? People were practically making flags and waving them out in their yards when Gabe Newell said the same damn thing.

Funny how that works, eh?

And as Ladavac made clear, the problem isn't what Windows 8 is doing right now - it's what it or some successor might do in the future if Microsoft continues moving toward the "walled garden."

Yes, exactly. Windows 8 itself isn't the problem (except certification), it's the possible trend it represents that has people concerned enough that they're speaking up now before a any possible closed system Windows is released as a fait accompli and it's too late to do anything about it. I like to think of it as preventative bitching.

OK, so if Windows is bad for the consumer or not is up to preference. Some of us are going to love what Windows 8 offers, some are going to hate it and some wont care that much.

Now few of us are actually making games here so we don't have to look too closely at how Windows 8 is from that point of view. Gabe Newell, Notch and this guy probably have looked over it in detail in order to see what OS they are supporting/not supporting and the conditions on it.

How call me a Windows 8 hater all you want (I am planning to upgrade 2 of my computers during Christmas to run it) if that's what you think I am, but when you say that Windows 8 wont be bad for gaming, did you consider the fact that they might lose support from some big names due to their policy good or bad?

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