Portal Creator Sees End to Industry Sexism in 20 Years

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Andy of Comix Inc:

Smeatza:
You have bought into a media narrative that does not accurately represent the culture or those within it.
It's sensationalism, nothing short of it.

I must be a sensationalist then because I'm speaking only from personal experience. The more I interact with people who are "in the culture" - especially in person - the less inclined I am to want to be apart of it. I've met nice people too! No doubt! But so many people who associate as "nerds" and "geeks" are racist, sexist homophobes. I speak only from evidence presented to me by my own eyes - I was of this opinion before "the media" told me I should have it.

The only "feminists" I've met have been opinionated man-haters who think females are superior to males and that we should act accordingly. All the evidence that has been presented to my own eyes points to this.
However I have taken the time to research feminism, I've taken the time to discover that those I've spoken to are extremists within the feminist community.
The same applies to you, you are allowing a vocal minority to represent the majority.
No doubt the media bias has helped solidify your discriminative opinion.

Smeatza:

Andy of Comix Inc:

Smeatza:
You have bought into a media narrative that does not accurately represent the culture or those within it.
It's sensationalism, nothing short of it.

I must be a sensationalist then because I'm speaking only from personal experience. The more I interact with people who are "in the culture" - especially in person - the less inclined I am to want to be apart of it. I've met nice people too! No doubt! But so many people who associate as "nerds" and "geeks" are racist, sexist homophobes. I speak only from evidence presented to me by my own eyes - I was of this opinion before "the media" told me I should have it.

The only "feminists" I've met have been opinionated man-haters who think females are superior to males and that we should act accordingly. All the evidence that has been presented to my own eyes points to this.
However I have taken the time to research feminism, I've taken the time to discover that those I've spoken to are extremists within the feminist community.
The same applies to you, you are allowing a vocal minority to represent the majority.
No doubt the media bias has helped solidify your discriminative opinion.

I never said they were a majority. I just they're making me less inclined to join in with them. I feel like I have to separate myself from the community to avoid looking like one of them; I'm sure "proper" feminists feel the same way about the more extreme, outspoken ones.

May I ask what you mean by "media," by the way? Do you mean the media? Or just popular opinion as reported on by media outlets? Or any site that blogs news articles and presents opinions? How... how can I be brainwashed by the media when I disregard so many sources of "the media" while consuming from conflicting, contrasting sources? Where are you drawing the line?

Moonlight Butterfly:
Just look at this thread and see how many people haven't heard of Kim Swift. She was the lead on PORTAL ffs one of the lead games of this generation and no one has heard of her? That makes you think there is nothing wrong does it?

Actually there is absolutely nothing wrong with no one knowing her name, because she really isn't a big public figure head. She isn't a Gabe Newell, or a Cliffy B nor a Miamoto. Hell can you name any of the lead designers from the last 10 games, I sure as shit can't. Hell I probably can't name a single one from the last 50 games I played. People rarely if ever pay attention to who makes games. The people that are known in the industry are usually figureheads/legends that have built up a reputation (for better or worse) over years. She hasn't exactly been in the public eye that long, yes she's been in the industry for a while but it's not like we've seen her in articles across the board.

Speaking of Portal, hell I know Glados's voice actor because she's out there, I've seen her do a bunch of things, she pops up in a lot of discussions.

There are less female programmers / software engineers than male ones so maybe thats why the industry employs more men rather than because it is sexist for the fun of it . . . .

Blind Sight:
Problem #1 is reversing the trend of women getting less technical and computer science degrees.

thats not actually a problem. Thats like saying, problem #1 is reversing this trend of women being kept out of the glamour job of being a rubbish truck driver.

Let me make this clear folks: Absense is not a synonym for exclusion.

Has it occured to people that there are less women in that industry due primarily to a lack of drive by women in general to be in that industry? I mean this is the same paradigm that convinces women sitting at home to complain about there not being enough women in an industry & then when you ask them "if you feel so strongly about it, why don't you study for 6 years racking up thousands of dollars worth of debt, to enter the highly competitive field" & they look at you like you just offered to have sexy wioth an infant, while eating a kitten sammich.

Blind Sight:
In 1984 37% of computer science degrees were given to women, by 2007 it's at 22% (figures from Jolie O'Dell). To be completely frank, there simply isn't enough competent female tech professionals to create gender duality in the tech industry in general, much less the video games industry. Aiming for the younger generation is the best plan so far, much better then unrealistic expectations of the gender gap closing anytime in the near future.

Best plan for what? Having more women in the industry doesn't fix a problem, since no problem existed to start with, since absence is not the same thing as exclusion. In fact women bring nothing to the industry except womeness. An since womeness is not actually a technical trait, women bring nothing new to the table. Being a woman is not a unique view, or even a different view. An it does nothing to change the games being made, since the technical crew rarely if ever has anything to do with the design choices or story direction that the company heads decide on.

Whats more women aren't a hive mind, so more women in an industry does not equate to any particular womans ideas being focused on.

So what exactly do we think more women in technical fields within the gaming industry is going to do exactly? An how is it not happening sexism exactly?

This man helped make Portal. Who are we to argue?

Jokes aside, I don't really ever see sexism leaving anything, ever. Because there will always be someone, some person ruining it for all. But it may be shrunk, but I don't think it'll ever go completely. It's a shame but it's true. :/

Patrick Buck:
This man helped make Portal. Who are we to argue?

um, i can only speak for me... Who am i to argue? I'm someone who understands that appeal to false authority is a logical fallacy. I mean if this guy told us that the world was flat & was sitting atop four elephents, standding on the back of a giant turtle, he would be likewise wrong.

An please don't do the "i was kidding" thing... How does that old saying go about the things we say in jest.

What I want to know is WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE FISH CAN PLAY VIDEO GAMES? Heh, now that's an issue to be raised I tell ye!

matthew_lane:

Patrick Buck:
This man helped make Portal. Who are we to argue?

um, i can only speak for me... Who am i to argue? I'm someone who understands that appeal to false authority is a logical fallacy. I mean if this guy told us that the world was flat & was sitting atop four elephents, standding on the back of a giant turtle, he would be likewise wrong.

An please don't do the "i was kidding" thing... How does that old saying go about the things we say in jest.

I hate to go against you... but if you actually read the rest of my post, it was pretty clear I was being sarcastic. The "Jokes aside" as the next line might have clued you in a bit, but I couldn't expect you to read two sentences of writing could I?

Just kidding mate. ;)

Hixy:
There are less female programmers / software engineers than male ones so maybe thats why the industry employs more men rather than because it is sexist for the fun of it . . . .

Shit, that's true... Like in engineering everyone jokes about "there're no girls in Engineering Campus" and the there's all the macho jokes and stuff that are basically male stupidity and that makes all of us (men) to have a good time because we probably DO have some screws lose). But you don't hear that kind of joke coming from a Lawschool or a Medical student, because, well, there are many girls in those colleges (my Lawschool class had many more women than men).
So yeah, maybe it is somehow as you said, the fact of a male dominated professional area (programming/software engineering) might impact on the audience that gets the game.

On a side note, there's also the audience that WANTS the game, if once it was determined that the main audience is a male audience, games will attend to that public's expectations and realizations, which brings me to question: is it a sexism in video games thing? Or more likely a sexism in CULTURE thing? Would you open a whole branch of barbecue stores serving cow meat in India? No, you wouldn't. You won't m ake games for girls if they don't want to play them either.
BUT, times have changed, if we get pressed about sexism is either because: a) good option: women are now into the gamer demographic in a considerable number, and are pressing for changes, those changes must be met because they are now part of the target audience; b) bad option: women are still not interested in games, but developers want to sell more games so they want to to force them into liking games, and they'll do it by getting rid of "sexism", and by that understand anything at all that doesn't appeal to women.

The (many) women I know who enjoy games already enjoy them and have NEVER raised any comments or complaints about sexism in games, they might eventually roll their eyes to one thing or another, but never in the rage filled angst.

Andy of Comix Inc:
I never said they were a majority. I just they're making me less inclined to join in with them. I feel like I have to separate myself from the community to avoid looking like one of them; I'm sure "proper" feminists feel the same way about the more extreme, outspoken ones.

So you realise they are a minority, you realise they do not accurately represent the culture as a whole, yet you shun the entire culture for their actions? That seems counter-intuitive to me.
It's like a German shunning their nationality so as not to seem like a Nazi.

May I ask what you mean by "media," by the way? Do you mean the media? Or just popular opinion as reported on by media outlets? Or any site that blogs news articles and presents opinions? How... how can I be brainwashed by the media when I disregard so many sources of "the media" while consuming from conflicting, contrasting sources? Where are you drawing the line?[/quote]

Perhaps mass media, or mainstream media would be better terms. News outlets are usually the main culprits but the trends tend to apply to all media that measures it success by the number of people consuming it.
I wouldn't use the term brainwash.
And perhaps I was wrong, I tend to assume at first that most sensationalism is the fault of the media, because, well it almost always is. I do tend to forget that an audience with a taste for sensationalism is required as well.

However the (news/factual - I still can't decide on a term) media as a whole, whether liberal or conservative, trustworthy or not, tends to be sensationalist. For example, "Mass Effect responsible for Sandy Hook shooting" is sensationalist. "Gun nuts try to take away our freedoms in response to Sandy Hook shooting" is also sensationalist.

Basically I would say news media that does not try to take a sensationalist standpoint in order to sell more papers, get more viewers is very rare.

Milanezi:

Hixy:
There are less female programmers / software engineers than male ones so maybe thats why the industry employs more men rather than because it is sexist for the fun of it . . . .

Shit, that's true... Like in engineering everyone jokes about "there're no girls in Engineering Campus" and the there's all the macho jokes and stuff that are basically male stupidity and that makes all of us (men) to have a good time because we probably DO have some screws lose). But you don't hear that kind of joke coming from a Lawschool or a Medical student, because, well, there are many girls in those colleges (my Lawschool class had many more women than men).
So yeah, maybe it is somehow as you said, the fact of a male dominated professional area (programming/software engineering) might impact on the audience that gets the game.

On a side note, there's also the audience that WANTS the game, if once it was determined that the main audience is a male audience, games will attend to that public's expectations and realizations, which brings me to question: is it a sexism in video games thing? Or more likely a sexism in CULTURE thing? Would you open a whole branch of barbecue stores serving cow meat in India? No, you wouldn't. You won't m ake games for girls if they don't want to play them either.
BUT, times have changed, if we get pressed about sexism is either because: a) good option: women are now into the gamer demographic in a considerable number, and are pressing for changes, those changes must be met because they are now part of the target audience; b) bad option: women are still not interested in games, but developers want to sell more games so they want to to force them into liking games, and they'll do it by getting rid of "sexism", and by that understand anything at all that doesn't appeal to women.

The (many) women I know who enjoy games already enjoy them and have NEVER raised any comments or complaints about sexism in games, they might eventually roll their eyes to one thing or another, but never in the rage filled angst.

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not :) Well I will be honest I think the whole sexism in gaming thing is overblown to a MASSIVE degree particularly around here I dare say. Thats my opinion on it and I have been downright abused for it before. I was talking about the professional side of the industry rather than the consumer side and with regards to the former I think someone talented and driven will succeed from either gender, men just hold the majority on the relevant interests and qualifications.

Hixy:

Milanezi:

Hixy:
There are less female programmers / software engineers than male ones so maybe thats why the industry employs more men rather than because it is sexist for the fun of it . . . .

Shit, that's true... Like in engineering everyone jokes about "there're no girls in Engineering Campus" and the there's all the macho jokes and stuff that are basically male stupidity and that makes all of us (men) to have a good time because we probably DO have some screws lose). But you don't hear that kind of joke coming from a Lawschool or a Medical student, because, well, there are many girls in those colleges (my Lawschool class had many more women than men).
So yeah, maybe it is somehow as you said, the fact of a male dominated professional area (programming/software engineering) might impact on the audience that gets the game.

On a side note, there's also the audience that WANTS the game, if once it was determined that the main audience is a male audience, games will attend to that public's expectations and realizations, which brings me to question: is it a sexism in video games thing? Or more likely a sexism in CULTURE thing? Would you open a whole branch of barbecue stores serving cow meat in India? No, you wouldn't. You won't m ake games for girls if they don't want to play them either.
BUT, times have changed, if we get pressed about sexism is either because: a) good option: women are now into the gamer demographic in a considerable number, and are pressing for changes, those changes must be met because they are now part of the target audience; b) bad option: women are still not interested in games, but developers want to sell more games so they want to to force them into liking games, and they'll do it by getting rid of "sexism", and by that understand anything at all that doesn't appeal to women.

The (many) women I know who enjoy games already enjoy them and have NEVER raised any comments or complaints about sexism in games, they might eventually roll their eyes to one thing or another, but never in the rage filled angst.

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not :) Well I will be honest I think the whole sexism in gaming thing is overblown to a MASSIVE degree particularly around here I dare say. Thats my opinion on it and I have been downright abused for it before. I was talking about the professional side of the industry rather than the consumer side and with regards to the former I think someone talented and driven will succeed from either gender, men just hold the majority on the relevant interests and qualifications.

Just to make it clear lol, I was agreeing with you heheheh

matthew_lane:

Blind Sight:
Problem #1 is reversing the trend of women getting less technical and computer science degrees.

thats not actually a problem. Thats like saying, problem #1 is reversing this trend of women being kept out of the glamour job of being a rubbish truck driver.

Let me make this clear folks: Absense is not a synonym for exclusion.

Has it occured to people that there are less women in that industry due primarily to a lack of drive by women in general to be in that industry? I mean this is the same paradigm that convinces women sitting at home to complain about there not being enough women in an industry & then when you ask them "if you feel so strongly about it, why don't you study for 6 years racking up thousands of dollars worth of debt, to enter the highly competitive field" & they look at you like you just offered to have sexy wioth an infant, while eating a kitten sammich.

Blind Sight:
In 1984 37% of computer science degrees were given to women, by 2007 it's at 22% (figures from Jolie O'Dell). To be completely frank, there simply isn't enough competent female tech professionals to create gender duality in the tech industry in general, much less the video games industry. Aiming for the younger generation is the best plan so far, much better then unrealistic expectations of the gender gap closing anytime in the near future.

Best plan for what? Having more women in the industry doesn't fix a problem, since no problem existed to start with, since absence is not the same thing as exclusion. In fact women bring nothing to the industry except womeness. An since womeness is not actually a technical trait, women bring nothing new to the table. Being a woman is not a unique view, or even a different view. An it does nothing to change the games being made, since the technical crew rarely if ever has anything to do with the design choices or story direction that the company heads decide on.

Whats more women aren't a hive mind, so more women in an industry does not equate to any particular womans ideas being focused on.

So what exactly do we think more women in technical fields within the gaming industry is going to do exactly? An how is it not happening sexism exactly?

Really? The literal hundreds of complaints on twitter in the reasonswhy campaign shows there's plenty of sexism in the industry, and it's mainly directed at the belief that women are incapable in regards to technical skills. The absence of women in the industry is not due to exclusion, yes, but the TREATMENT of women within the industry clearly shows there is still a sexism problem. 'Since no problem existed to start with' is the most nonsensical denial of reality imaginable. If women want to be taken more seriously, simply having more of them actually on the technical side of the industry is a good start. You seem to think that I'm arguing my point just to get women in technical positions just because they're women. No, what I'm saying is that if women in the industry are in a position where they are seen as incapable, the best way to change that is to encourage women to take computer science degrees so you have a larger amount of competent, professional, female programmers, designers and developers available. Much better plan then touchy-feel good rhetoric.

Legion:
It's kind of sad but from my personal experience almost all of the sexism in regards to video games has come from women not men, anonymous internet not included. I only know of one woman (in my life at the moment) who does not think gaming is one of those "Sad things grown men do that are meant for little boys."

Aha I was wondering when someone would point this out

matthew_lane:

Blind Sight:
Problem #1 is reversing the trend of women getting less technical and computer science degrees.

thats not actually a problem. Thats like saying, problem #1 is reversing this trend of women being kept out of the glamour job of being a rubbish truck driver.

Let me make this clear folks: Absense is not a synonym for exclusion.

Has it occured to people that there are less women in that industry due primarily to a lack of drive by women in general to be in that industry? I

Yes, obviously, but then the question should be 'why'?
What Kim Swift is saying is that she wants to inspire girls, to let them know they can pursue those areas.

As a kid, I always assumed it would have been pretty much impossible for me to become a game designer, because all the games were made in Japan.
Similarly, if a girl assumes all the technical people are male, it will be less likely she will seriously pursue math.

And are there less female rubbish truck drivers that are male? If that's the case, it would be worth wondering why. After all, possessing a vagina doesn't make you allergic to trash or anything.

defskyoen:

Zachery Gaskins:
It needs to go the same way that rampant racism/homophobia are heading, in that they are stigmatized rather than tolerated (if not condoned). And yes, it needs to start with young people who aren't being brainwashed by their parents.

It's obviously better to be brainwashed by homosexual lobbying groups than your own parents: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/

It's very difficult to answer the question of 'how many gay people there are?', because sexuality isn't a clear black-and-white issue. The majority of people probably are bisexual to some extent, but even if you have once fallen in love with someone of the same sex, you don't necessarily consider yourself gay.

Besides, it's not just 'homosexual lobbying groups' that can exaggerate how many gay people there are.

Quite a lot of homophobes like to think of themselves as a persecuted minority, and that the gay people are controlling the media and politics, and that legalising gay marriage would lead to no-one being heterosexual anymore.

No joke, I have heard numerous variations of the argument 'If we allow gays to marry, humanity will go extinct'...

Really, gay-rights shouldn't be an issue.

They just are an easy way to get votes. Fixing the economy is hard, but voting against gay-marriage is easy!

HyenaThePirate:
What a boringly safe prediction. Gee, I also predict in 50 years America will see it's first female or gay president, that Tigers in the wild will be extinct, that everybody reading this post will have had sex at least ONE time, and that water will still in all probability be describable as "wet."

See? I can make amazingly bold predictions of a mundane nature as well.

OMG NO WAI.

Here's my predictions: Country music will still suck in 2020 and I will still avoid television like the plague.

Fake gamer girls have infiltrated to a development level?!?

I had no idea it had gotten this bad... Time to fortify, boys!

Dogs rule!

[edit] aaaand that was my 200th post. I sure hope I'm as proud as I'm pretending to be.

what is she? a care bear? Don't get me wrong, sexism at all is wrong, but just like racism it wont ever "end". And also - while we get douchebags in the pro gaming circuit and there are sexualized women in video games, the industry as a whole isnt sexist. it CANT be. it would get its balls sued off.

there are douchebags in every walk of life, there are sexualized women (and men) in EVERY media. What would be nice is to see her aiming to get women to create games for the female demographic, because they are few and far between. But having a large variety of male focused video games is not sexist, its just devs catering to what they know.

Ladies and gentlemen, I direct your attention to the thread on sexism. Watch the arguments devolve. Watch them splinter and scatter as defense systems power up and people try hard to ignore or suppress the issue without actually addressing it. [/barker mode]

Here are the facts: Sexism exists. Period. Has done since the dawn of time and will do for quite some time to come.

Have things progressed towards equality a bit from then to now? Yes.
Have they progressed enough? No.
Will they progress enough in the fullness of time? Perhaps.

Now for some harder-to-take ones:

Is sexism more prevalent and visible in the gaming community than in other areas of culture? Yes.
Are other forms of bigotry more prevalent and visible in the gaming community than in other areas of culture? Yes.
Does the community need to quit downplaying the effect of such hatred and start making an effort to change itself? Yes.
Is Ms. Swift being optimistic? Yes.
Should she stop speaking or making an effort? No.

Whether you believe it or not, whether you accept it or not, whether you acknowledge it or not, this is our reality. We live and breathe in this world, trolls and saints, haters and hated, players and NPCs all.

You don't have to care about it.
You don't have to listen to people discuss the issues in it.
You don't have to do a damn thing.

But if you don't care and won't listen, would you kindly let those who do care, will listen, and actually want to change things do their work?

So, we have no more Ayla?

I shall enjoy the present even more.

defskyoen:

SNIP

So basically that whole rant of yours boils down to "hello everybody, I'm a complete transphobe. Fuck everyone that identifies outside of mainstream gender norms."

Blind Sight:
Really?

Yes, really.

Blind Sight:
The literal hundreds of complaints on twitter in the reasonswhy campaign shows there's plenty of sexism in the industry, and it's mainly directed at the belief that women are incapable in regards to technical skills.

/facepalm. It shows nothing of the sort. There were literally hundreds of thousands of people who declared the earth flat at one point, but it didn't make it so. The uninformed opinions of stupid people does not make something so... What you've just done is called appeal to majority & its a logical fallacy.

Lets not even mention that the majority of people who answered where not members of the industry.

Blind Sight:
The absence of women in the industry is not due to exclusion, yes, but the TREATMENT of women within the industry clearly shows there is still a sexism problem.

An again you'd be wrong: Women are treated no differently then anyone else in the industry.

Blind Sight:
'Since no problem existed to start with' is the most nonsensical denial of reality imaginable.

Not to steal Sam Harrises line but "that which can be stated without evidence, can be refuted without evidence."

An there is no evidence that women not being more common place in the industry is a problem, or that the reason for this lack is sexism. Presuppositional statements is not valid evidence to back the claim.

Blind Sight:
If women want to be taken more seriously, simply having more of them actually on the technical side of the industry is a good start.

No it wouldn't. Thats like saying if we want black people to be taken seriously, we need a black president. Quantity is not the same thing as quality. An again you've supplied no evidence that women are not taken seriously in the industry now.

Blind Sight:
You seem to think that I'm arguing my point just to get women in technical positions just because they're women.

Because you are. In exactly the same way that if you were arguing that the lack of black people in the industry was a problem that needs fixing, you'd have been arguing the point just to get black people in technical positions just because they're black.

Equality of outcome is not equality: Its just sexism that benefits someone else.

NightowlM:

defskyoen:

SNIP

So basically that whole rant of yours boils down to "hello everybody, I'm a complete transphobe. Fuck everyone that identifies outside of mainstream gender norms."

Um, not to be an arse about it, but there are only two gentic genders. Everything else is just genetic and/or developmental abnormalities in different areas: From 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, through 17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency & everything in between. From Androgen insensitivity syndrome through Congenital adrenal hyperplasia.

I didn't know the creator of Portal was female. Huh. You learn something new everyday.

So, I have a secret wish. Whenever I'm in the public eye, whether it's doing PR or giving a talk - and this is going to sound amazingly corny - I hope that there's a little girl out there that sees me and thinks to herself, "Oh look! Girls make games too."

Girls are weak-minded conformists who can't do anything until somebody nudges them along and rolls out the red carpet as the crowd cheers them on.

Does that sound sexist? Well, it's what she's actually saying, and what many others before her have said. According to these people, girls aren't strong and independent enough to do something just because they want to do it, and aren't naturally inclined to do things like game development without constant encouragement and validation.

When the game industry was being established, home computers were arcane and relatively rare devices, and a boy or man didn't become the toast of the town and the life of the party by spending hours every day learning programming (and even more hours playing other people's games). Being a computer nerd (or any other kind of nerd) has never been a path to social validation and a personal harem, but this multi-billion dollar industry exists because of all those computer nerds. They built it from nothing, and in the beginning there were no roadmaps to follow or role models to look up to.

Today, computers are ubituitous and easy to use, video games have been around for about four decades, tools and guides for all aspects of game development are easily available to anyone who wants them, and the Internet allows anyone to distribute their games however they see fit. The worst a girl can expect for being a computer nerd is the same treatment a boy would get, but even that is unlikely. But still we have people like Swift complaining that it's so hard for girls to get into computers and game development. She is saying that girls are much weaker than boys, and need extraordinary amounts of support before they can even get on the same level with them.

This sort of limp-wristed whining should be put into perspective by considering what Grace Hopper was able to accomplish before feminism was even a thing.

If you want diversity in gaming subjects, if you want the industry to just plain grow up, then we need to change the makeup of our industry, because games are a reflection of their creators.

What she means by "grown up" is probably a post-modern deconstruction of video games where a quantumqueer, transblack androfemme omnisexual and her underprivileged headmates are trying to prevent George W. Bush from killing the world's female population with an orbital weapons platform shaped like a penis. Strategy games, simulators and adventure games are never accepted as grown up enough, so I don't see what else she could be talking about.

matthew_lane:

NightowlM:

defskyoen:

SNIP

So basically that whole rant of yours boils down to "hello everybody, I'm a complete transphobe. Fuck everyone that identifies outside of mainstream gender norms."

Um, not to be an arse about it, but there are only two gentic genders. Everything else is just genetic and/or developmental abnormalities in different areas: From 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, through 17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase deficiency & everything in between. From Androgen insensitivity syndrome through Congenital adrenal hyperplasia.

Except that there's a difference between sex and gender. While I acknowledge that my genetic sex is male, that doesn't mean that that's the end-all-be-all of my gender identity. It's one thing to acknowledge biology, and another to be reductionist about it.

Cactus Frankie:

This sort of limp-wristed whining should be put into perspective by considering what Grace Hopper was able to accomplish before feminism was even a thing.

Ignoring all the other nonsense you spouted, I'll just focus on this. Your statement here is clearly false. Hence, you know nothing of feminism if you don't even know that feminism was a "thing" long before 1906, when this lady was born.

NightowlM:
Ignoring all the other nonsense you spouted, I'll just focus on this. Your statement here is clearly false. Hence, you know nothing of feminism if you don't even know that feminism was a "thing" long before 1906, when this lady was born.

No, it most certainly wasn't a thing at the time. It didn't take off until the 1960s. You are talking about the suffragettes, who weren't even called feminists until the 1970s.

NightowlM:
Except that there's a difference between sex and gender. While I acknowledge that my genetic sex is male, that doesn't mean that that's the end-all-be-all of my gender identity.

Actually it does. Gender identity beyond that is scientific hokum, a psychological shell game. There are also people who self identify as occasional furniture, but i can assure you if i go round telling people i'm a coffee table, i don't suddenly become a coffee table.

Mind is what brain does & brain is a biological device & we are back to there only being two genetic genders. Everything else is just genetic and/or developmental abnormalities in different areas, in this case in the brain.

At the end of the day, we are just very poorly constructed machines, designed by random happenstance & pure dumb luck.

Cactus Frankie:
No, it most certainly wasn't a thing at the time. It didn't take off until the 1960s. You are talking about the suffragettes, who weren't even called feminists until the 1970s.

God damn it man: Now you've put me in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with Nightowl. I don't like having to agree with Nightowl. However you've forced my hand by being so fractally wrong... Thats to say you are wrong across the scale, from the tiny, to the large.

While Suffragists were not feminists (i don't care what recreationist history spewing womens study professor says to the contrary, the two were not the same thing), first wave feminism started in the 1920's. The second wave didn't start until the 1960's.

matthew_lane:
God damn it man: Now you've put me in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with Nightowl. I don't like having to agree with Nightowl. However you've forced my hand by being so fractally wrong... Thats to say you are wrong across the scale, from the tiny, to the large.

People of a liberal persuasion tend to be very longwinded, dramatic and showy when they want to tell someone they're wrong. It's like they need all that posturing to cover up weaknesses or uncertainty in their arguments (assuming they even have any).

While Suffragists were not feminists (i don't care what recreationist history spewing womens study professor says to the contrary, the two were not the same thing), first wave feminism started in the 1920's. The second wave didn't start until the 1960's.

It wasn't the feminism we know and love today, or at the very least wasn't enough of a thing to have much meaning. Also, the problem with the history of feminism is that it's written by feminists. That is, any advocacy of equal legal rights and social status for women is counted as feminism, even though gender equality is not even a part of feminism.

matthew_lane:

NightowlM:
Except that there's a difference between sex and gender. While I acknowledge that my genetic sex is male, that doesn't mean that that's the end-all-be-all of my gender identity.

Actually it does. Gender identity beyond that is scientific hokum, a psychological shell game. There are also people who self identify as occasional furniture, but i can assure you if i go round telling people i'm a coffee table, i don't suddenly become a coffee table.

Mind is what brain does & brain is a biological device & we are back to there only being two genetic genders. Everything else is just genetic and/or developmental abnormalities in different areas, in this case in the brain.

At the end of the day, we are just very poorly constructed machines, designed by random happenstance & pure dumb luck.

Oh well. I guess my and any trans person's identity is nullified because the idea of gender identity is hokum. I guess we're equivalent to people arguing that they're furniture. Well, I guess a whole part of our core identities are nonsense. Well now that I know all that, it's off to try to kill myself again. And here I was thinking that my silly trans identity was making me a happier person and taking me away from suicidal depression. Oh well.

NightowlM:
Oh well. I guess my and any trans person's identity is nullified because the idea of gender identity is hokum.

/facepalm. Your understanding of science is really limited isn't it.

NightowlM:
I guess we're equivalent to people arguing that they're furniture.

Or Napolean.

Mind is what brain does. Now unless you just up & decided one day that your "gender identity" didn't match that of your body, in which case you could decide tomorrow to be somethig else, then what we are talking about is an issue of faulty brain chemistry. Faulty brain chemistry is a biological issue.

If i think i'm a coffee table, it doesn't mean i am a coffee table.

NightowlM:
Well now that I know all that, it's off to try to kill myself again. And here I was thinking that my silly trans identity was making me a happier person and taking me away from suicidal

What you just tried is a logical fallacy known as an appeal to consequence, where an argument is put forward that essentially says "if [prospect A] is right then the [unrelated bad thing A] will occour & we don't want that, so [prospect A] must be wrong, because we want to avoid [unrelated bad thing A]."

Demonstrable facts don't stop being either demonstrable or facts because we are unhappy about them.

matthew_lane:

NightowlM:
Oh well. I guess my and any trans person's identity is nullified because the idea of gender identity is hokum.

/facepalm. Your understanding of science is really limited isn't it.

NightowlM:
I guess we're equivalent to people arguing that they're furniture.

Or Napolean.

Mind is what brain does. Now unless you just up & decided one day that your "gender identity" didn't match that of your body, in which case you could decide tomorrow to be somethig else, then what we are talking about is an issue of faulty brain chemistry. Faulty brain chemistry is a biological issue.

If i think i'm a coffee table, it doesn't mean i am a coffee table.

NightowlM:
Well now that I know all that, it's off to try to kill myself again. And here I was thinking that my silly trans identity was making me a happier person and taking me away from suicidal

What you just tried is a logical fallacy known as an appeal to consequence, where an argument is put forward that essentially says "if [prospect A] is right then the [unrelated bad thing A] will occour & we don't want that, so [prospect A] must be wrong, because we want to avoid [unrelated bad thing A]."

Demonstrable facts don't stop being either demonstrable or facts because we are unhappy about them.

Nah. I didn't try anything. I just got really fucking upset that you were completely condemning trans people as essentially loonies as delusional as those experiencing psychotic thinking. Your dismissive attitude is the kind of thing that we deal with every fucking day. That got me to thinking of the times when I thought that the whole world thought I was nothing but a freak and a nut case for identifying the way I do. Then I thought of the insane percentage of suicide attempts among the trans population and my own attempts.

I hurriedly and angrily typed this up in my response almost the second I saw your initial response. But that was triggering so I had a good cry then and there and decided to leave the comp for a while and do something more pleasant to get my mind off of my morbid thoughts. Then I came back on and saw that you had responded.

None of that involved any attempts by me to use a fallacious argument, or really any argument. I just posted very reflexively.

Oh, and FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!!! Oh and in this case if I think you are an asshole then you very likely are a gigantic asshole. (If I get banned for this, then so be it).

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