Dragon Age Writer Calls BioWare Forums "Toxic"

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cynicalsaint1:
Say what you will but the man is right.

Grey Carter:
"I imagine that can happen to any online community," he continues. "Eventually the polite, reasonable folks stop feeling like it's a group of people they want to hang around. So they leave, and those who remain start to see only those who agree with them- and, because that's all they see, they think that's all there is. Everyone feels as they do, according to them. Once the tipping point is passed, you're left with the extremes... those who hate, and those who dislike the haters enough to endure the toxic atmosphere to try and combat them. Each clash between those groups drives more of the others away."

I can attest to this personally, in fact the BSN forums are how I found the Escapist, thanks to someone posting a link to one of their March developer-battles.

I actually used to like hanging out there but eventually I got sick of all the bitching and fighting that when down in that place. It ceased to be a place to talk about games I liked a more a place for people to piss and moan about whatever stupid ass problem ruined their "favorite" game forever. And so I left.

Its not that people hate BioWare its that people don't are at least willing to have a rational intelligent conversation about things are sick of dealing with mouthy haters who talk about every little problem they have with a game like its the end of the fucking world. Combine that with the fact that for some reason something about being on the internet has a tendency to make people feel the need shout their opinions from the top of the nearest mountain, and refuse to consider other points of view ... and well, yeah.

This happened in a manga forum I was following. The shipping wars got really bad and then one character that people were shipping hard on did something derpy and the whole forum was at war. It got so bad most of the normal people left and the hardcore haters stayed and made an echo chamber of hate and bile. It was like the ME3 crap where the internet was like in giant echo chamber of anger and hate. I left and fond a similar forum that still discussed the manga in a civil fashion, but that website got threatened with a lawsuit by the manga publishers so they stopped hosting chapters. The forums were alive but that's all, most the people left and the haters stayed. then the first forum, the one I left calmed down a bit, new people showed up, and the normal people came back, the hard core hatters did much the same thing I did they left and found a new echo chamber, the forum I had escaped to to get away from these assholes in the first place. so I had to emigrate back over. that place is still a hive of bile and hate directed at the 2 main characters. They have been bitching for the manga to end since the 130th chapter it's in the 270s now

Here's the conundrum - Gaider's not wrong, but he's not exactly right either. The people batting around this "Bioware forums have always been garbage, hur hur" opinions are woefully ignorant of the site's history and how it changed over the last short while.

The BSN, as we know it now, is completely different than what it was even a year ago. I can say this since I was (and still am) a user on the site since 2009. The "toxicity" of the forums (especially Mass Effect) was borne out of the overzealous and entirely hamfisted way the moderators ran the boards. Even the most controversial BW game up to that point (Dragon Age II) got nowhere near the amount of hate that the site in general garnered post-ME3. The "hate topics" were still mostly reasonable, with the scant few vocal dissenters being drowned out by fans who wouldn't listen to anyone criticizing the franchise. That, and the DA dev team publicly apologized for their product about a month after that outrage, with most of the vocal dissent dying off immediately after.

Hell, the backlash over ME2's "Arrival" DLC (which was, at that point, looked at by most as the worst DLC in the franchise) was mostly relegated to a bunch of supertopics discussing what they liked and didn't like about the product.

While there were a lot of questionable decisions made by the moderators, it was never as prevalent or widespread as it was over the last year. Off the top of my head, there were:

- moderators telling users they won't comment on speculation or answer anything on the boards, then choosing to release it on Twitter instead (which had nowhere near the amount of users on their accounts, as opposed to the actual forum)
- people asking direct questions, and the mods either choosing to deflect it or leaving the topic
- topics getting locked for no reason (the most recent of which being the Indoctrination Theory supertopic)
- mods telling users (both in private messages and posts directed at media outlets) that the fanbase didn't "get" their product
- one moderator (the community manager) writing what amounted to glorified fanwanking on her social media accounts, then asking fans to accept it as absolute truth
- mods screwing with fans either by fueling speculation, or dismissing commonly-discussed problems with backhanded responses (for instance, the whole "play multiplayer to get the best ending" controversy was finally addressed months later in a random forum post, where one of the mods fessed up to it and flippantly said, "There - we cool now?", prompting a wave of criticism)

Coupled with the already-existing controversies, it was a recipe for disaster.

The forums, as it currently stand, are a wasteland. Most of the long-time users (fans and critics alike) have fled, and the only people left are a few diehard fans who will defend the company to the death, and a ton of others who are just getting into the different franchises and are complaining as well. The last time I checked, the user traffic on the site was a small fraction of where it was pre-ME3. It's not so much toxic as it is near-barren.

You think it's bad now?

Wait till they finally dare to announce that DA3 will be multiplayer only because EA doesnt want singleplayers anymore.

Legion:
He makes a very valid point, and he actually brings up the reasons for why I stopped visiting them. If you praise Bioware in any shape or form you are a sheeple or a biodrone. If you dislike anything at all then you are a hater or a troll. It's almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the forums.

Same here - I liked Mass Effect (all three of them) but was one of the many left disappointed by the ending. I was in the "keep calm or we wont be taken seriously!" camp, for the record. Well...until someone pointed me at Angry Joe, anyway!

I was pretty satisfied with the Extended Cut - sure it wasn't perfect but it was made at warp speed and I saw it as a torn-off shirt sleeve wrapped around a bullet hole in a leg, as opposed to full-on field surgery. I agree with Angry Joe when he said that if we had the EC endings to begin with then the shit-storm wouldn't have been anywhere near as epic.

However, according to many, I was wrong - WRONG, DO YOU HEAR?!? - and BioWare and EA should all be sacked and if you disagree then you ovbiously are a troll or a BioWare / EA employee in disguise! I was also WRONG and STUPID because I liked the Mako...I would have been better off saying I liked raping puppies! In the end I just began responding: "Well it's not MY fault that YOU sucked at driving it!"

I loved the Mass Effect trilogy and I loved the Universe they created. I got a couple of the novels for Chrsitmas and I am looking forward to getting stuck into them...and The Art of Mass Effect...Oh. My. God. It could not have been more sweet unless it came with a free living, breathing Liara T'Soni.

Normally I can gloss over small flaws and enjoy the whole package but I got so fed up with the torches and pitchforks brigade on the forums who seemed determined to hate everything EA / BioWare made, regardless of quality, that I just stayed away.

I don't miss it.

Legion:

That said:

Grey Carter:

"Perhaps there is also something to be said about whether the games BioWare makes still satisfy our core fans."

This is also a very good point, and it is also where a lot of the hate comes from. Bioware do not seem to be trying to make games that appeal to the "core fans" even by their own admission. To them they want to appeal to as many people as possible, but the way they go about it seems to be to take all the unique things that stand out about their previous titles and try and appeal to the lowest common denominator.

I would agree.

I can only speak for Mass Effect as it's the only range of games from the company I own or have played but ME1 and (to a lesser degree) ME2 were not really for your everyman gamer. Without wishing to sound elitist, you had to like the sort of game Mass Effect was in order to get the best out of it. If not then there was always something else...

However in Mass Effect 3 there were the three options designed to make the game appeal to everyone. There was the "Classic" option for all of us who started from the beginning and know what we're doing; the "Shooter" option for those with a monysyllabic volcabulary and the I.Q of a fifty-pence-peice; and then the "Dialogue only - no nasty shooty bits!" option, presumably for vegetarians or something. This option, to me, was the daftest of all considering that ME3 saw the war for the galaxy begin. Call me a stuffy old traditionalist but I thought that most wars do tend to feature a lot of gunplay!

Before this, though, came the DLC for ME2 that allowed you to make the key decisions we had to make in ME1 without the hassle of actually playing it.

Sorry but certain decisions we had to make drastically changed the game, for better or worse, and for some of us it took several playthroughs before we learned our lesson. We bought the game (with MONEY!) and played it like good little consumer whores. So when I heard that there was a DLC for ME2 that allowed new players to effectively "tick boxes" I felt a little miffed. I also felt dirty because I don't usually like elitism and I was getting dangerously close, which made me a hypocrite...and I don't like those either!

Still - I saw it for what it was - a way of getting more new players into the franchise so that when ME3 came out they would maximuse their sales. New players I have nothing wrong with - giving them a leg up simply for the sake of profit, I do. Also, if they missed the first game then they've missed a hell of a lot of important stuff, not that the bean-counters care!

I am not going to bring up the ending or anything like that, but can anybody really say that they liked the lines Shepard gave at the beginning of Mass Effect 3?

Legion:

"We fight or we die! That's the plan!"
"This isn't about strategy or tactics. It's about survival!"

It's like a cheesy action movie one-liner but it doesn't even make any sense.

I mean seriously, who did they expect to hear that dialogue and think anything else other than "What the fuck?"

To be fair he really didn't have time to sit down and bash out a speech in iambic pentameter...

That and all the best writers were busy with Wrex and Garrus' dialogue!

Knight Templar:

Staal:
Maybe it has something to do with how BioWare has set itself up as preaching liberals wanting to enforce their world views on everyone else.

That is absurdly incorrect. How exactly is Bioware trying to force their views on every other human? By having some characters in their games be bi? Is that it?

The game design is not preachy, the response to legitimate complaints were. They are free to make whatever they want but if a section of the community goes "where is my white human romance option" it is a valid complaint since there wasn't one. They do not deserve to be dismissed as bigots. The portion of the community that would prefer that option is the majority or the most sizable section however you look at it.

Knight Templar:

Staal:
Just take the whole debacle around Dragon Age 2 and the bi-sexuality of characters. They deliberately under served their biggest demographic.

If you take offence at a character being Bi then I doubt you are the biggest demographic. Bigots tend not to be a big market. And yes I'm going to say bigots because not only would you need metagaming to know half the characters are bi, but the romances are not the same for both genders. So that leaves the issue being with just them being Bi.
Or is there some other reason that their sexuality is relevant?

The bi-issue like I said was kind of pointless. It was just lazy characterization. If they want to cater to a group then write something for them, don't just give every character the bi-brush. It feels rushed and fake. But that seems to be a complaint about many of their other stories as well.

As an example I can take my own reaction. I noticed it and it felt tacky and stupid. I wasn't offended and probably wouldn't have thought much of it. It was the smug "eat your spinach" reaction in the aftermath that made me notice. Now I can't help but think BioWare not including at least one white human romance was agenda driven. Can't be sure but it sure sounds preachy to me.

People are perfectly within their rights to say they did not like the design and that they did not get the options they wanted. That is not entitlement. It is not bigotry. They paid for the product and were disappointed. The company can react to that and change design or not, entirely their right, but it has nothing to do with bigotry.

Or are we bigots purely by being white and straight and preferring options that reflect ourselves? It sure seems that is what you are saying.

Calling bigotry is just a way to close down discussion with an emotional label rather than look at the shoddy writing/characters that were created. But that is the modern liberal way.

Knight Templar:

Staal:
hen people complained BioWare and David Gaider in true liberal-tyranny style of the modern day castigated those people by alluding to them being x, y, z.

It was the logical result of what was being complained about. Being offended that a game doesn't cater exactly to your sexual tastes and demanding that it do so is more than a little silly. Calling somebody out on such foolishness is hardly tyranny.

Really because it seems to be black people complain that there aren't enough black people in the game and gay people that they didn't have a gay option. Are they also bigots? Or is it just bigotry when a straight white guy prefers a straight white girl? Ok dude.

It is funny how the people throwing the term bigot around turns out to be the biggest and most insidious of them all.

Staal:

But if a section of the community goes "where is my white human romance option" it is a valid complaint since there wasn't one.

How is that a valid complaint?
Honestly that's borderline racist. You need to have a white person to romance, and if one isn't there is a problem with the game? This isn't just saying you want it to be there, this is saying that its wrong the game didn't have it. That is not a valid complaint.

They do not deserve to be dismissed as bigots.

Then they need to better express themselves, because the things they say do mark them as such.

The bi-issue like I said was kind of pointless.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up.

It was just lazy characterization.

How? And the problem expressed was not with poor characterisation, but with them being bi at all.

If they want to cater to a group then write something for them, don't just give every character the bi-brush.

We already know they do not write characters to cater to groups like this. That was clearly not the motivating factor behind this choice.

It feels rushed and fake.

How does it feel like either of those things? As already noted, the romances are not copy and paste.

I noticed it, and it felt tacky and stupid.

How did you notice it? And for which character?

What got me very upset was how everyone that thinks that is attacked with grossly inappropriate language, just like you are doing now.

As I have already explained, it is a result of their own arguments that they are shown to be these things.
If they are not prejudiced in the way they seem, then they should better explain themselves.

The term bigot is used out of context.

No it isn't, the context is very clear, you clearly understood my use of it and thus the context. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

People are perfectly within their rights to say this design is stupid and is not what they were expecting.

They can say that, but depending on the why they can with just as much if not more validity be called bigoted, or rather that what they have said and expressed as their opinion is bigoted.

That is not entitlement.

No but expecting a game to cater exactly to your sexual tastes and attempting to take the creators to task when this doesn't happen, kinda is.

It is not bigotry.

As I have explained, it can be. And it evidently was.

It is this is what I like and since we are the most it should be in.

No it is demanding that it be put in, and saying the game was wrong for having something else. They are very different things.

The fact that they just broadly made most characters swing both ways is what made it not only look lazy/cheap but made it stand out.

They are not even half of your companions, nevermind other characters. And again them being bi is not in and of itself lazy. Your insistence that this is the case is utterly unfounded.

Calling bigotry is just a way to close down discussion with an emotional label rather than look at the shoddy writing/characters that were created.

If people wish to take issue with characters or writing they can, but we are talking about people who chose to take issue with characters being bi, and not seeing anyone they wanted to fuck. Even you are stepping into those ground, the characters are poorly written because they are bi? Not really an argument, just a collection of unfortunate implications for you.

But that is the modern liberal way.

Interesting that you complain so much about people being what is in your mind attacked, but here you are attacking an entire group of people you disagree with politically. You're a bit of a hypocrite.

So all black people that complain that there aren't enough black people in the game are also bigots?

That really depends on what exactly their argument is. But since that's not even the same kind of argument as this one, it doesn't matter to our discussion.

All gay people that didn't have a gay option are also bigots?

This looks like two questions that you turned into one by mistake.
You'll need to rephrase that.

Honestly, no company can claim the dissapointment of years of build up of emotional attachment to a series to kick you in the balls and take your wallet right at the climax like ME did. If they did not want the flak, they should of never of made the ending to begin with.

I loved ME3 as a game, but I've never felt insulted so badly by a video game ever like I did at the end. I admit to getting emotionally involved in the series, but the end left me with a dissapointed scowl by mocking that. I still like Bioware, but not nearly as much as I used to.

crazyrabbits:
Here's the conundrum - Gaider's not wrong, but he's not exactly right either. The people batting around this "Bioware forums have always been garbage, hur hur" opinions are woefully ignorant of the site's history and how it changed over the last short while.

The BSN, as we know it now, is completely different than what it was even a year ago. I can say this since I was (and still am) a user on the site since 2009. The "toxicity" of the forums (especially Mass Effect) was borne out of the overzealous and entirely hamfisted way the moderators ran the boards. Even the most controversial BW game up to that point (Dragon Age II) got nowhere near the amount of hate that the site in general garnered post-ME3. The "hate topics" were still mostly reasonable, with the scant few vocal dissenters being drowned out by fans who wouldn't listen to anyone criticizing the franchise. That, and the DA dev team publicly apologized for their product about a month after that outrage, with most of the vocal dissent dying off immediately after.

Hell, the backlash over ME2's "Arrival" DLC (which was, at that point, looked at by most as the worst DLC in the franchise) was mostly relegated to a bunch of supertopics discussing what they liked and didn't like about the product.

While there were a lot of questionable decisions made by the moderators, it was never as prevalent or widespread as it was over the last year. Off the top of my head, there were:

- moderators telling users they won't comment on speculation or answer anything on the boards, then choosing to release it on Twitter instead (which had nowhere near the amount of users on their accounts, as opposed to the actual forum)
- people asking direct questions, and the mods either choosing to deflect it or leaving the topic
- topics getting locked for no reason (the most recent of which being the Indoctrination Theory supertopic)
- mods telling users (both in private messages and posts directed at media outlets) that the fanbase didn't "get" their product
- one moderator (the community manager) writing what amounted to glorified fanwanking on her social media accounts, then asking fans to accept it as absolute truth
- mods screwing with fans either by fueling speculation, or dismissing commonly-discussed problems with backhanded responses (for instance, the whole "play multiplayer to get the best ending" controversy was finally addressed months later in a random forum post, where one of the mods fessed up to it and flippantly said, "There - we cool now?", prompting a wave of criticism)

Coupled with the already-existing controversies, it was a recipe for disaster.

The forums, as it currently stand, are a wasteland. Most of the long-time users (fans and critics alike) have fled, and the only people left are a few diehard fans who will defend the company to the death, and a ton of others who are just getting into the different franchises and are complaining as well. The last time I checked, the user traffic on the site was a small fraction of where it was pre-ME3. It's not so much toxic as it is near-barren.

While my memory's a bit hazy, what I do recall was a very different set of boards when I was actually active (around 2003-2005), before EA wandered in, and the whole BSN thing. The forums were generally pretty good back then, some genuine discussion, some actually helpful posters, some intelligent back and forth... I'm sure there were 4chan rejects wandering around saying stupid things, and idiotic posts from people affiliated with the company, but there were actual discussions, and actual debate.

I'm sure it wasn't quite as good as I'm remembering, but at the same time, even looking at BSN back in 2009, it was almost unrecognizable.

Ascarus:

Scyla:
Maybe they should start to make decent games....

:P

yep. while two of their last three games have been commercial successes (DA2 and ME3) the quality has dropped considerably. ME3 was 90% good so i don't knock it too hard, but DA2 was an absolute shit storm of crap, problems and repetition. I never played SW:TOR but given how quickly subs ran away and they went to a free MMO service speaks volumes to its longevity.

The one thing ME3 did do was sour customers. I mean, we've got the whole backlash of people who outright hated it to the point of mailing cupcakes to Canada, but, at the same time we've got a slightly bigger problem, people who won't pick up the next game. Which may have honestly been one of TOR's major problems (I don't know, but it's plausible), they alienated a chunk of their fanbase with that move.

Thing is, even if the ending isn't 90% of the game, it is the last impression the game leaves with you on the way out. So, while you can say, empirically, that it's still a good game because only the last fifteen minutes sucked, there's still the problem that your consumer's lasting impression is going to be of that last fifteen minutes. When Bioware releases a new product down the line, a lot of consumers who managed to get to the ending will evaluate it in that light. (Not all, but a lot.)

Honestly, with a piece of entertainment, the place to suck, if you have control over that, is in the middle. It doesn't sour the first impression, and it isn't what players/readers/viewers will take with them when they're done.

DA2's a bit more complicated, but, that's the ME3 thing. I don't know that it influenced TOR's sales, but it's a reasonable interpertation, if you're familiar with the market and the fans.

Maybe a little late, but...

votemarvel:

Legion:
"We fight or we die! That's the plan!"

I thought that line really suited the trailer for the game but when you see it in context in the scene it was written for, then it does raise the question of "that's the best they could come up with?"

I'm not reading through this entire thread, so I'm not sure if anyone already told you this, but that line was not in the game. It was in the trailer and the leaked beta. People complained about that line, so they changed it.

The line in the game is "The only thing we can, we fight or we die."

And yes, that line sucks as well, especially because it's a military commander who says this after being summoned to give advice on how to beat the Reapers.

Knight Templar:

Staal:
Maybe it has something to do with how BioWare has set itself up as preaching liberals wanting to enforce their world views on everyone else.

That is absurdly incorrect. How exactly is Bioware trying to force their views on every other human? By having some characters in their games be bi? Is that it?

Much as I don't want to agree with Staal on, well, anything. He's almost got a point here. Media, and this isn't Bioware itself, but, films, TV, books, and, in general, entertainment media as a whole do influence cultural norms over time. And I don't mean this in the conspiracy theory "the illuminati is mind controlling us" way, but simply, when something is presented as socially acceptable in media it becomes more socially acceptable in culture as a whole.

One of the least controversial ways you can see this in action (though, not one of the most accurate ways) is by following cigarette consumption in the United States from 1940-2000, and cross reference that with the quantity of tobacco products used in entertainment media.

As a whole, it can be a pretty fascinating field, or it can make you sound like you're wearing a tin foil hat... either way.

EDIT: I probably should point out that when it does come to sexuality, media influence tends to be more about mitigating xenophobia, rather than actually altering someone's sexuality.

I wonder if the toxicity has something to do with being told "MASS EFFECT 3 IS GOOD, EVERYONE SAYS SO, YOU JUST DON'T GET HOW GOOD IT IS, SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT ALREADY." pretty much over and over by BioWare and EA representatives, regardless of it probably being the most spectacularly stupid death of one of the most promising sci-fi franchises in recent video game history.

I mean that could have something to do with it.

Far as how toxic it is, I wouldn't know, I apparently got banned from the BSN for reasons they have chosen not to disclose to me....and I didn't even find that out til I saw this article and went to check the BSN and apparently I've been banned for over eight months.

CrazyCapnMorgan:
I've been to the BioWare forums only once and I can say this:

I'm glad The Escapist has the rules set like they do. Hell, if The Escapist rules were in effect there, the mods would've had Hammer Streak-Banillionaires by now.

Which sounds sort of entertaining, actually! ^.^

The mods on the BioWare forums are very quick to ban people. For instance, there was a troll thread one day and someone in my friends list got permabanned for saying the OP was a troll.

Unfortunately they also ban people for criticizing EA. The same guy from the example above was later asked by EA to betatest one of their services and he posted a negative review in the off-topic forums, which resulted in a permaban of his second account. Another example: One of the BioWare moderators made a thread saying he never got his pre-order bonus for ordering Mass Effect 3 on the Origin website. Even though he said this in a polite manner, and it did turn out to be a common problem, he was stripped of his moderator status and banned from the forums.

I was once a member of a forum where you got banned for grammar errors. Forgot to capitalize the first word in a sentence? Banned for a day. I kinda liked those rules.

Starke:
Much as I don't want to agree with Staal on, well, anything.

While I agree completely what you say about media in the long run, that is not my point. Bi-sexuality is a complete non-issue in the grand scheme of things.

My problem/point is that complaints/opinions on certain topics are immediately met with unthinking aggression by a group in our society while they themselves are guilty of the exact same. It is the hypocrisy of it all that brings me to a boil.

BioWare has done the exact same thing as a cheap way to deflect criticism from their design failure. It must be a company culture of some sort and it is effecting the quality of their product. Somehow personal political agendas at that company is overshadowing the goal to make a good game. No wonder their forums are "toxic".

Ascarus:

Scyla:
Maybe they should start to make decent games....

:P

yep. while two of their last three games have been commercial successes (DA2 and ME3) the quality has dropped considerably. ME3 was 90% good so i don't knock it too hard, but DA2 was an absolute shit storm of crap, problems and repetition. I never played SW:TOR but given how quickly subs ran away and they went to a free MMO service speaks volumes to its longevity.

SWTOR is a good game, but it shares many design elements with their single player games. The problem with SWTOR is that it's not the kind of game that you keep playing, and that seems quite essential in a subscription based MMORPG.

And to respond to the other quote: I think BioWare still makes great games. The problem is that they have raised the bar in some of their past games that they couldn't meet it. Mass Effect 3 is a very good game, but it's clearly the weakest out of the three. I could quote mutliple reasons, none of them to do with the ending, but I don't want to go too far off-topic.

I've been following Gaider's posts for a while now and see what crap he has to put up with. I agree with him on this topic. The BSN forums are quite depressing.

Starke:

thanatos388:
I think you misunderstood. It was that people wanted a refusal ending that somehow ends with you winning against the reapers with your magical EMS. Yes the whole ending is bullshit, the whole game has a horrible plot. Why could't Shepard tell the kid to just leave? Hey your wrong the solution doesn't work so just turn off the reapers and go away. But no Bioware wanted a dark ending and people want to somehow just have a way of winning without starchild.

From what I saw it wasn't so much that people wanted to tell the Starchild to fuck off so much as just cutting the bastard, and giving some actual closure to the game, instead we got the extended cut which actually added more nauseating exposition... and the option to snuff the little bastard... so, I guess partial credit.

So far as a "dark ending." Bioware has gotten it in their heads that they're now mature adults writing for mature adults, and instead they've gone from writing "teen fantasy" to writing "angsty teen fantasy". In other words, Mass Effect was screwed.

EDIT: And yes, you're right, I did read what you said as, "all them whiners just wanted a happy ending", which, I've honestly seen off enough of Bioware's fans for it to start to blur together.

Yep i agree completely. The writers need to learn from this and maybe not write about sci-fi again for a while. The concepts in the ending were just too big for them to understand and write about. You'd think they've never seen 2001. And isn't all video game writing basically "angsty teen fantasy" now that every game has to be dark and gritty?

Staal:

You are a bigot dude.

For you to say this as a response, you must not properly understand the word. Perhaps you are the kind of fool who thinks noting bigotry is bigotry? Either way, you are vastly incorrect and I would say you know this and simply want to sing the word around in an empty attempt to make some point.

Wanting a romance option of your own race is completely natural.

So? That doesn't address the point.

You don't seem to have a problem that black people would require one of their race, in fact you seem support it.

I have said nothing to that effect, this is a red herring and a strawman.

If anyone is the racist, it is you.

This seems to be just like your failed use of the word "bigot" against me. Fort somebody who takes such, almost personal, offence to such words you don't seem to know how to use them correctly. I think that explains a lot.

People are entirely justified to not like the game

But to go beyond that and say it is wrong of the game? To demand that they get what they want? That is not ok, and that is what is the issue here, as you have been told many times.

But I doubt you troll their website going "racist, racist, bigot".

"their website" What website belonging to who?
And you're saying that I am simply trolling you here?

I have not called you a bigot a racist or a troll, you have called me all these things in a blatant attempt to offend me. You sir, are making an ass of yourself.

To be honest a lot of the people I saw posting back in 2009/2010 were expressing themselves just fine. I.e. I would like a white human female because that is my demographic, which also happens to be the majority.

That isn't what I saw. I saw very few people at all complaining that they didn't get their fetish met. But among those that did, many were bigoted.

hen hypocrites like you

How does that word apply to me?
Honestly, are you just throwing words I've used at me in the hope you'll use them correctly? Because you are not doing so.

climb into the debate of course and fling the term bigot around.

Only when the term can be applied. And even then I like to avoid it.

And you don't just use it for the tiny minority that don't want any mention of bi-sexuality in the game,

THose are not the only people who can be bigots. That you think they are is strange.

you use it to paint anyone that dares complain about anything.

This is a blatant lie (or prehaps you simply didn't read all I wrote), I have made clear people complaining about other topics are most definitely not bigots because of it.

[

Instead of admitting that yes the bi-option should've been done better

Thats not what the complaint was about, sothat would have been a strange reply.

which as I have clearly proven it was not.

You have utterly failed to do so, you have made numerous mentions of other different arguments many of which I agree are not bigoted, but this is in no way the same.

Unless of course you ready to admit that gay people asking for a gay option is also bigotry.

Thats not even the same situation.
See if there's no gay option at all, they have nobody to romance at all no matter tastes. But straight or gay, options are present here and thus such a consideration is no longer relevant as the issue is resolved. The situations are in some ways similar, but they are functionally different for the purposes of this conversation. Its not as if there was nobody for a straight person to romance, if there was nobody then perhaps this line of argument should be followed. But as it stands this is simply another indication you do not fully understand the topics at hand.

I see you still haven't responded to that.

So that what your mangled question at the end of your post was about. Well I didn't answer it then because you had phrased it in such a way I couldn't understand.
As you can see, now that you have properly expressed yourself, the question is answered.

I maintain almost no one would have noticed or said anything if BioWare had done it properly without smearing it into every nook and cranny.

If you are attempting to say that they did such with bisexuality, then you are clearly wrong. As already noted, for two romance options you would never even know they were bi without repeat playthroughs. If you cannot even tell the bi characters are bi, then that's hardly putting it everywhere.
Your paranoia is interesting however.

But what pray tell would you have done better? You have not said what Bioware has done wrong, other than have the characters be bi at all. So what is the issue you would correct?

Which is what makes me suspect in hindsight that they do have an agenda they are pushing.

You previously said they are not pushing one in their games, now you say they are.
Which is it?

Hmm... we do know this? Because they said so? Right.

Because we can read their design plans and thoughts, how they go look at writing.

But if you do not trust anything they say at all, then your entire argument falls into itself as nothing they say can be viewed to have any meaning, including the things you rest your argument on.

It is how it feels.

For gods sake I asked how does it feel that way. Is there anything to suggest that this feeling is accurate?
No offence but your "feelings" alone mean jack shit, and a circular argument certainly isn't one you should use.

I was really bothered.

You previously said you were not.

The overall feel.

Again this is not an argument, this is simply you repeating your opinion, with nothing to support it. And with nothing to support it, I can discard it with nothing.
This is how a discussion works.

Many people in the subsequent months expressed their disappointment in a much better way.

I have seen that and the way you describe them going is not what I viewed. There were still instances of demands and cries the game was worng for not scraching their sexual ich, and as already noted, that's not valid.

You are denying someone their right to identify with their own race

No I am not, for gods sake stop making stuff up about me.
Also, I find it very telling you think your race is "the core of your identity".

Someone that wants a white romance

Why do you persist in ignoring important details, it is not a simple want here, but also the demand and the cry that the game is wrong for not having it.

Besides all this bitching when there was a white person to romance in the bloody game. Not that physical appearance is the same as fucking gender. How you confuse the two I will never know.

Should I list the dozens, if not hundreds, of blogs and articles about women/blacks/gays etc complaining that they are not catered too? I don't think I will but we both now they are all over.

And utterly irrelevant. having a possible option and catering to your exact tastes is not the same thing, again, a very common mistake from you.

No, you have already indicated that anyone that is white and prefers a white romance option is racist.

No I have not, read every word I use next time.

Demand/request/complain is all semantics.

No it is not, there is a very clear and important differeance between saying you would like it if X happened, and demanding that others give you X.
This is so blindingly obvious I do not know how you wouldn't notice.

It appeared that way to me.

But since that is not how it is that appearance was not true. And this means nothing. This is why being able to have something other that feelings is important.

Many, many people shares this opinion.

This is yet another logical fallacy, one you have used many times but not so blatantly as now. Appeal to popularity.

How can the character be both straight and bi? You are either one or the other.

That doesn't follow as a response.

BioWare can have bi-characters but it makes no sense for them all to be bi.

They are not so no problem.

A minor issue but still it was a legitimate complaint and has nothing to do with bigotry.

It wasn't the complaint and isn't true if it was. So you are incorrect.

Since you cast the first stone with statements that white people are not allowed to prefer a white romance option or else they are racist the hypocrite tag is firmly on your forehead.

Except I never said that.
So quick to judge me when you know so little. And I'd said nothing to you.

It is exactly the same argument. How does it differ?

Because they are not demanding that more black people be put in, and they are also talking in general terms, not about their sexual tastes.

By your logic gay people are bigots for requesting a gay option in a game.

DA2 has straight options, thats the thing about bi characters they serve as both straight romance options and homosexual ones. You're not seriously trying to argue that it doesn't have anyone for a straight male to romance and this is the thrust of the argument are you? Because thats the only way half of what you say makes any sense, and its wrong.

No wonder you don't understand the words I use, you hardly seem to understand yourself.

EDIT:

Starke:
snip

I readily recognise this impact you speak of. However to have something in a work and for this impact to have some noticeable effect is not the same as anything being forced on anyone.
And when I asked that question my mind was framed in terms of the games, which Staal says he isn't talking about. He has since somewhat contradicted himself on that so I'm not longer sure even he knows what he meant.

Hey Gaider, I have song I'd like to play for you. It's a sad little melody played on the world's smallest violin.

You're an adult. Not only that, a content creator, fucking act like one.

Knight Templar:

Staal:

You are a bigot dude.

For you to say this as a response, you must not properly understand the word. Perhaps you are the kind of fool who thinks noting bigotry is bigotry? Either way, you are vastly incorrect and I would say you know this and simply want to sing the word around in an empty attempt to make some point.

Because you flatly stated that anyone that dares want a white romance is a racist.

Knight Templar:

You don't seem to have a problem that black people would require one of their race, in fact you seem support it.

I have said nothing to that effect, this is a red herring and a strawman.

It is not a strawman. You are in support of other groups having their preferred options/agendas realized but somehow if the "majority" is upset that theirs is not there you call them bigots.

Knight Templar:

If anyone is the racist, it is you.

This seems to be just like your failed use of the word "bigot" against me. Fort somebody who takes such, almost personal, offence to such words you don't seem to know how to use them correctly. I think that explains a lot.

I don't take offence to the game or any of that. Hypocrites offend me that sit there on their smug high horse calling people bigots when they actively reject a white person's right for a white romance.

Knight Templar:

People are entirely justified to not like the game

But to go beyond that and say it is wrong of the game? To demand that they get what they want? That is not ok, and that is what is the issue here, as you have been told many times.

Wrong/demand = semantics. Feminist groups get very shrill about no proper female characters. The delivery of ones opinion does not make you a bigot. It might make you a pain in the ass though.

Knight Templar:

But I doubt you troll their website going "racist, racist, bigot".

"their website" What website belonging to who?
And you're saying that I am simply trolling you here?

I have not called you a bigot a racist or a troll, you have called me all these things in a blatant attempt to offend me. You sir, are making an ass of yourself.

As in whichever website or forum they might express that opinion in. Just a general term. It might even have been on this one. I don't know, don't care. All I know is that you are a hypocrite for calling people bigots when you deny them their identity the very next breath.

Knight Templar:

To be honest a lot of the people I saw posting back in 2009/2010 were expressing themselves just fine. I.e. I would like a white human female because that is my demographic, which also happens to be the majority.

That isn't what I saw. I saw very few people at all complaining that they didn't get their fetish met. But among those that did, many were bigoted.

Fetish? A white guy that wants a white girl as a romance option is a fetish? On what planet do you live?

Knight Templar:

climb into the debate of course and fling the term bigot around.

Only when the term can be applied. And even then I like to avoid it.

I would never have guessed that.

Knight Templar:

And you don't just use it for the tiny minority that don't want any mention of bi-sexuality in the game,

THose are not the only people who can be bigots. That you think they are is strange.

I don't. You are one as well by holding that opinion the majority of the population must suppress a core aspect of their identity.

Knight Templar:

you use it to paint anyone that dares complain about anything.

This is a blatant lie (or prehaps you simply didn't read all I wrote), I have made clear people complaining about other topics are most definitely not bigots because of it.

By calling white guys that prefer white girl romances a racist is doing exactly that.

Knight Templar:
[

Instead of admitting that yes the bi-option should've been done better

Thats not what the complaint was about, sothat would have been a strange reply.

Ultimately it is what the complaint is about. It was so badly done and couple with the romance issue it is not surprising it caused a stir. For BioWare then to get all smug and condescending about it paints them in a very bad light as to their original motives. I.e. they wanted to thumb their noses at white males. Something you seem to enjoy doing to. Hence, you being a...

Knight Templar:

Unless of course you ready to admit that gay people asking for a gay option is also bigotry.

Thats not even the same situation.
See if there's no gay option at all, they have nobody to romance at all no matter tastes. But straight or gay, options are present here and thus such a consideration is no longer relevant as the issue is resolved. The situations are in some ways similar, but they are functionally different for the purposes of this conversation. Its not as if there was nobody for a straight person to romance, if there was nobody then perhaps this line of argument should be followed. But as it stands this is simply another indication you do not fully understand the topics at hand.

It is exactly the same situation. White guy wants white girl romance. Gay guy wants gay romance. And there certainly was no white human female to romance.

It can't get more clear cut than that. But since you deny a white male's identity and his desire to pursue it in the game I am not surprised you refuse to accept this fact.

Knight Templar:

I maintain almost no one would have noticed or said anything if BioWare had done it properly without smearing it into every nook and cranny.

If you are attempting to say that they did such with bisexuality, then you are clearly wrong. As already noted, for two romance options you would never even know they were bi without repeat playthroughs. If you cannot even tell the bi characters are bi, then that's hardly putting it everywhere.
Your paranoia is interesting however.

But what pray tell would you have done better? You have not said what Bioware has done wrong, other than have the characters be bi at all. So what is the issue you would correct?

I have no problem with their original design as I have said repeatedly, even if I thought it was lazy. What got to me was their pathetic disregard and smug contempt of the complaints that were made regarding the design and the lack of a white female romance option. They washed it away with "ah, you are just bigots". That is unacceptable as their design is lazy and they did not include a white female romance option.

The only thing that I would do different is if you are going to have a bi/gay character then make them so and not whichever the player wants to play it. It just doesn't sound right. And I noticed it on my first play through.

Knight Templar:

Which is what makes me suspect in hindsight that they do have an agenda they are pushing.

You previously said they are not pushing one in their games, now you say they are.
Which is it?

I have only begun to suspect that they are after their response to the complaints. When I first played the game I didn't think much of it at all because it was such a minor thing.

Knight Templar:

Hmm... we do know this? Because they said so? Right.

Because we can read their design plans and thoughts, how they go look at writing.

But if you do not trust anything they say at all, then your entire argument falls into itself as nothing they say can be viewed to have any meaning, including the things you rest your argument on.

Bleh can't be bothered to look up what my comment was in response to. I think we can safely say from their response to the complaints that some writers at least do harbour some agendas. The smugness definitely gives it away.

Knight Templar:

It is how it feels.

For gods sake I asked how does it feel that way. Is there anything to suggest that this feeling is accurate?
No offence but your "feelings" alone mean jack shit, and a circular argument certainly isn't one you should use.

Of course my feelings mean something. It is what I experience as I play the game. It is what makes it a good game to me. I am not a game designer or what have you so I am not really interested in analyzing exactly how they should do it differently. All I do know is that the generalized bi-status of characters was lazy. I admit it is a useful way to reduce development costs but that doesn't change the "feeling" I get when I play.

It didn't make me not like the game. And perhaps a request to do it differently is unreasonable due to development costs. But then that is the way BioWare should have framed their response. Not "get stuffed bigots". They are a major company and that response was ridiculous.

Knight Templar:

I was really bothered.

You previously said you were not.

Typo. "I was not really bothered". Sue me.

Knight Templar:

Many people in the subsequent months expressed their disappointment in a much better way.

I have seen that and the way you describe them going is not what I viewed. There were still instances of demands and cries the game was worng for not scraching their sexual ich, and as already noted, that's not valid.

The same way in which a gay man can legitimate complain he does not have a gay option in the game so can a white guy complain he does not have a white option. It is exactly the same.

Knight Templar:

You are denying someone their right to identify with their own race

No I am not, for gods sake stop making stuff up about me.
Also, I find it very telling you think your race is "the core of your identity".

It is one of your cores yes. As is your language, religion, nationality, hair colour etc. They all form part of your identity.

And you specifically stated that... it is borderline racist to want a white romance. You are exactly saying that someone should not be allowed to associated with their own race. That is racist.

Knight Templar:

Someone that wants a white romance

Why do you persist in ignoring important details, it is not a simple want here, but also the demand and the cry that the game is wrong for not having it.

Besides all this bitching when there was a white person to romance in the bloody game. Not that physical appearance is the same as fucking gender. How you confuse the two I will never know.

Because demand/want might be whiny but it does not justify you calling them a bigot. That is one of my major gripes here. The game itself is not at issue. It is your hypocritical attack on others.

Knight Templar:

Should I list the dozens, if not hundreds, of blogs and articles about women/blacks/gays etc complaining that they are not catered too? I don't think I will but we both now they are all over.

And utterly irrelevant. having a possible option and catering to your exact tastes is not the same thing, again, a very common mistake from you.

It is exactly the same thing because they are also asking to have their specific tastes catered to. And there is nothing wrong with that. You just seem to have double standards.

Knight Templar:

No, you have already indicated that anyone that is white and prefers a white romance option is racist.

No I have not, read every word I use next time.

Really...

Knight Templar:

Staal:

But if a section of the community goes "where is my white human romance option" it is a valid complaint since there wasn't one.

How is that a valid complaint?
Honestly that's borderline racist.

There it is, every word.

Knight Templar:

Demand/request/complain is all semantics.

No it is not, there is a very clear and important differeance between saying you would like it if X happened, and demanding that others give you X.
This is so blindingly obvious I do not know how you wouldn't notice.

Semantics. Demand/ask or whatever. Not justification to be calling people bigots.

Knight Templar:

It appeared that way to me.

But since that is not how it is that appearance was not true. And this means nothing. This is why being able to have something other that feelings is important.

Once again you are harping on the game. The game is a non-issue. The issue is you calling people with a legitimate complaint a bigot and BioWare trying to hide complaints about the game design behind petty insults.

Knight Templar:

Since you cast the first stone with statements that white people are not allowed to prefer a white romance option or else they are racist the hypocrite tag is firmly on your forehead.

Except I never said that.
So quick to judge me when you know so little. And I'd said nothing to you.

I quoted your exact words above. In black and white.

Knight Templar:

It is exactly the same argument. How does it differ?

Because they are not demanding that more black people be put in, and they are also talking in general terms, not about their sexual tastes.

Demand is just semantics. It does not justify your use of the word bigot. It is not in general terms. Female players want more strong female characters. Gay players want more gay characters. Black players want more black characters. They are all specific. There is no difference.

You are on a hiding to nothing I am afraid.

Knight Templar:

By your logic gay people are bigots for requesting a gay option in a game.

DA2 has straight options, thats the thing about bi characters they serve as both straight romance options and homosexual ones. You're not seriously trying to argue that it doesn't have anyone for a straight male to romance and this is the thrust of the argument are you? Because thats the only way half of what you say makes any sense, and its wrong.

No wonder you don't understand the words I use, you hardly seem to understand yourself.

That comment was referring to you stating that it is "borderline racist" to request a white female option if you are white. And I quoted you above on that, so you definitely said it.

The "bi" design option is a non-issue as I said time and time again. I don't care. Most people don't care. However, the first time I did play it I felt it was lazy and cheap. Yes, those are just "my feelings". I am entitled to them.

From that however flows the two main issues now;

(1) BioWare deflecting criticism of their design by accusing the complainers to be bigots. Pathetic.

(2) There was no white human female romance option and you calling anyone that wants one a racist. Want=demand=request, it doesn't matter how you dice the semantics.

Yeah, I have to agree. I was in favor of Mass Effect 3's ending change, but this didn't help.

What's more annoying than someone arguing against you? someone arguing the same point you are, for all the wrong reasons.

Starke:

Thing is, even if the ending isn't 90% of the game, it is the last impression the game leaves with you on the way out. So, while you can say, empirically, that it's still a good game because only the last fifteen minutes sucked, there's still the problem that your consumer's lasting impression is going to be of that last fifteen minutes. When Bioware releases a new product down the line, a lot of consumers who managed to get to the ending will evaluate it in that light. (Not all, but a lot.)

Honestly, with a piece of entertainment, the place to suck, if you have control over that, is in the middle. It doesn't sour the first impression, and it isn't what players/readers/viewers will take with them when they're done.

i completely agree with your assessment about the lasting impression of the final moments of a game impacting the player's overall view of the game. however in my experience as a gamer of decades, game endings are (almost) always sub-par to down right lazy. it's almost as if developers as a group believe the game is about the journey and not the ending. and while that may be true on some level, as a gamer i used to get very annoyed and let down at the lackluster reward for my efforts after finishing a game. now, given that i simply don't expect much, i am rarely terribly disappointed.

however ME3s ending was so terrible in so many ways that i found it very hard to let go of. it hasn't stopped me personally from being excited by upcoming bioware titles, but for me to stay a supporter bioware has a lot of ground to make up for given the embarrassing effort they put into DA2 and the train wreck ending they gave me for mass effect.

Knight Templar:

EDIT:

Starke:
snip

I readily recognise this impact you speak of. However to have something in a work and for this impact to have some noticeable effect is not the same as anything being forced on anyone.
And when I asked that question my mind was framed in terms of the games, which Staal says he isn't talking about. He has since somewhat contradicted himself on that so I'm not longer sure even he knows what he meant.

Yeah, the reason I singled out smoking, as opposed to interracial relationships or homosexuality isn't just because it's less controversial, but also because you can actually look at half a century of data for it, and, unfortunately, you need half a century of data to really see the pattern. Anything where your effect is fifteen years behind your cause will be an absolute pain to model.

But, you're also right, it's not forcing ideas on people, just adjusting norms, not brainwashing.

Staal:

Starke:
Much as I don't want to agree with Staal on, well, anything.

While I agree completely what you say about media in the long run, that is not my point. Bi-sexuality is a complete non-issue in the grand scheme of things.

My problem/point is that complaints/opinions on certain topics are immediately met with unthinking aggression by a group in our society while they themselves are guilty of the exact same. It is the hypocrisy of it all that brings me to a boil.

BioWare has done the exact same thing as a cheap way to deflect criticism from their design failure. It must be a company culture of some sort and it is effecting the quality of their product. Somehow personal political agendas at that company is overshadowing the goal to make a good game. No wonder their forums are "toxic".

To be fair, a lot of your posts read like "unthinking aggression", so there's a bit of a paradox here. And I'm not trying to be my normal abrasive jackass self here.

Though, you're actually bringing up two separate issues, a lot of mainstream media, at least in the US, has had an agenda of reducing xenophobia, and honestly, this has been going on for decades. It's been one of the most prominent focuses of science fiction since the genre's inception, and continues to be. I probably shouldn't call it an "agenda", but the senseless xenophobia in culture at large is something many writers have felt the need to speak out against, and because of cultural norms, they find themselves needing to speak out against it in an artificial context.

This gets into your comment about complaining about not having a romantic partner in Dragon Age 2 who is the same race as your protagonist... except, that's not true, there is one. Isabella. Because, skin color is incidental in DA2, for the game's context, the interracial relationship is with Merril or Fenris, because they're elves, and Hawke is human.

Where DA2 (and for that matter, Dragon Age Origins) talk about race and religion is through the use of fantasy races, the Qunari, the Elves, and the Dwarves, instead of through our preconceived notions of what race is or isn't.

As for BSN's toxicity, really it has more to do with EA forcing them to pump out titles before they're ready (I've seen unconfirmed reports that DA2 was actually still in an Alpha state when EA sent it out to die), and Bioware's really shitty response to their own communities grievances on the site. It's set up an environment where anything short of bloodcurdling rage is ignored out of hand by the devs, and bloodcurdling rage is responded to with smart ass blow offs. Their politics have almost nothing to do with it.

Ascarus:

Starke:

Thing is, even if the ending isn't 90% of the game, it is the last impression the game leaves with you on the way out. So, while you can say, empirically, that it's still a good game because only the last fifteen minutes sucked, there's still the problem that your consumer's lasting impression is going to be of that last fifteen minutes. When Bioware releases a new product down the line, a lot of consumers who managed to get to the ending will evaluate it in that light. (Not all, but a lot.)

Honestly, with a piece of entertainment, the place to suck, if you have control over that, is in the middle. It doesn't sour the first impression, and it isn't what players/readers/viewers will take with them when they're done.

i completely agree with your assessment about the lasting impression of the final moments of a game impacting the player's overall view of the game. however in my experience as a gamer of decades, game endings are (almost) always sub-par to down right lazy. it's almost as if developers as a group believe the game is about the journey and not the ending. and while that may be true on some level, as a gamer i used to get very annoyed and let down at the lackluster reward for my efforts after finishing a game. now, given that i simply don't expect much, i am rarely terribly disappointed.

however ME3s ending was so terrible in so many ways that i found it very hard to let go of. it hasn't stopped me personally from being excited by upcoming bioware titles, but for me to stay a supporter bioware has a lot of ground to make up for given the embarrassing effort they put into DA2 and the train wreck ending they gave me for mass effect.

I actually remember Crytek saying, basically, "we never expected anyone would get that far", when talking about the ending of Far Cry. It's certainly true that most players never see the ending of any given game, for whatever reason. I'm not sure if that usually filters back into this idea that the ending can suck, because no one will see it, or if it's something else. But, you're making a pretty valid argument there. Just looking at my favorates list on steam, the only games I see there with non-shitty endings are Spec Ops, Dawn of War II, and arguably Space Marine and The Darkness II. Well, and Civ V if I'm being a smartass.

I do know, with ME3, things were a bit different, because it was the ending of a trilogy, and because Bioware went out of their way to make sure everyone could get to the ending there were a lot of very unhappy players out there. Though, honestly, I'd say most of ME3's failing was more because Casey Hudson decided to sequester himself in a room to write up the ending. While most of the game's script went through a peer review process where the writers gleefully told each other "that was stupid, do better", the ending was produced in a vacuum... and, honestly, if as a writer, you ever find yourself writing in a vacuum, STOP, find someone else to look at your work, and tell you what does and doesn't work, or you too can produce the ending of ME3... or something.

The irony is, ME3 really benefited, most of it's writing was better than the previous two games. There was still some errant stupids, like Kai Leng, and Timmy, and as a trilogy it felt a lot more like part 2 than part 3, but, the idea that "hey, if we work together maybe it will be better" really paid off. And then... Shepard kills themselves. Whoo, go team.

Sorry, I'm ranting about something completely different now... >.<

Honestly, and I should probably sit this one up there, the ending of Mass Effect 3 isn't something that really bugs me. There's about twenty other things that filter up from earlier in the trilogy that really killed it for me, so by the time I actually got to the ending of ME3, I was actively in this kind of MST3K mode, and in that sense, the Starchild was freakin' gold. Not how Bioware intended the game to be played, but still.

Legion:

"We fight or we die! That's the plan!"
"This isn't about strategy or tactics. It's about survival!"

It's like a cheesy action movie one-liner but it doesn't even make any sense.

I mean seriously, who did they expect to hear that dialogue and think anything else other than "What the fuck?"

I think if I heard my commander say something like that I'd be thinking "This guy is an idiot and we're all going to die!"

I haven't played Mass Effect 3 so I can't comment on that, but if he is the one who took over control of Dragon Age then I think the fans might have something to gripe about because it was basically a roundhouse punch in the face of their nebulous "core fans" to whom they are so committed considering the repeating scenery and the ending which basically says "It doesn't fucking matter what you did in the game because it is all the same in the end" or at least that was what the storyteller implied in my ending.

maybe an entitled industry has bred entitled customers

Knight Templar is the most eloquent bastard that I had the pleasure of reading. I take my hat off for your very thorough smiting of forum goons.

The BSN has always been a pit of vitriol and unholy anger. I frequent that site quite often and it is less like a forum for open discussion and more like an angry circle-jerk, where the only goal of most threads seems to be "Remember how bad X is, lets repeat the same inept memes over and over." My faith in that site died when people started to phone in to one of the Dragon Age devs house and threatened to kill her over what she said in an interview years prior.

Compared to BWs original forums, BSN started off bad and has only become worse. I miss those forums.

Staal:
snip

Your inability you understand the basic meaning of words is making talking to you impossible. These are three issues you need to address.

1- "Boarderline racist" means it isn't actually racist. Since almost all your post is based of this colossal mistake, I see no need in responding since I will simply be repeating this point ad nauseum. You're commong off as a bloody "race realist" or white nationalist because of your error. This is why you cannot simply ignore what words mean. Which brings me...

2-You calling out "Semantics" when I use different words to describe different things is asinine. As I explained there is an operational difference between these different words, they cannot be used interchangeably, and pretending they can tells me you do not know what these words mean either. I mean do I really need to explain how sink colour and gender and entirely different in terms of romantic relationships? Nobody is "white-sexual" you know. Finally...

3- You fail to actually make any substantive argument. You still mistake the concept of "I feel x" as having any weight to it or being an accurate reflection of reality. You don't know what's wrong, but the only thing you have been able to single out as a problem in any way is characters being bi. Nothing else has been suggested to cause any problems. Do you see the problem with such an argument? Do you see why when the only things we get from you are "I feel this game sucks and its bad that it has bi people in it" being the only things you have paint an extremely poor picture of you?
You are either woefully incapable of expressing yourself, or you do not even understand your own opinions. Or perhaps, those unfortunate implications are more accurate than I thought.

So you need to correct these three big mistakes, because I do not want to spend the majority of a reply to you simply going over them again and again.

EDIT: You know, I'm starting to think there is zero point in trying to talk to you. I mean you think that calling someone a bigot is just a way to shut down conversations, I disagree but that's how it apparently works to your mind, but the moment you think you can use the word yourself you never stop using it.

Starke:
To be fair, a lot of your posts read like "unthinking aggression", so there's a bit of a paradox here. And I'm not trying to be my normal abrasive jackass self here.

I don't see where I have been unthinkingly aggressive. My stance is everyone is allowed to want themselves, their identity, represented in the game. Knight Templar's assertion that if a white person prefers a white romance option that they are racist qualifies quite clearly as "unthinking aggression" and bigotry.

I am merely holding up the mirror to those people who like to hold themselves up to be the enemy of bigotry all the while perpetuating a disdain for another group. I have adequately explained myself. If you refuse to accept the clear cut logical fallacy that Knight Templar is perpetuating well... I can't force you. But hopefully others that read this will think for themselves instead of jumping on the bandwagon.

Starke:

Though, you're actually bringing up two separate issues, a lot of mainstream media, at least in the US, has had an agenda of reducing xenophobia, and honestly, this has been going on for decades. It's been one of the most prominent focuses of science fiction since the genre's inception, and continues to be. I probably shouldn't call it an "agenda", but the senseless xenophobia in culture at large is something many writers have felt the need to speak out against, and because of cultural norms, they find themselves needing to speak out against it in an artificial context.

It still doesn't excuse BioWare's horrid response to legitimate complaints about their product.

Starke:

This gets into your comment about complaining about not having a romantic partner in Dragon Age 2 who is the same race as your protagonist... except, that's not true, there is one. Isabella. Because, skin color is incidental in DA2, for the game's context, the interracial relationship is with Merril or Fenris, because they're elves, and Hawke is human.

People still experience the game with their real life identity as a yardstick. It is exactly the same as saying a gay guy is not allowed to request a gay option in a game where there was none. For example, I saw on the Witcher 2 forum that someone asked whether a gay option would ever be included. Would it be ok to label him as a bigot? People identify with what they are themselves. That goes equally for skin/eye/hair colour, sexual orientation, religion, place of birth, shoe size etc. You cannot say one group can ask for their inclusion but another cannot. That is the hypocritical bigotry that I have just about enough of.

Starke:
Where DA2 (and for that matter, Dragon Age Origins) talk about race and religion is through the use of fantasy races, the Qunari, the Elves, and the Dwarves, instead of through our preconceived notions of what race is or isn't.

This is what I mean. Previous comment you say "skin colour is incidental". I don't agree but I am happy to accept it for arguments sake. But that leads us to the following... If skin colour in the game has no meaning because it is represented by Elves are you saying that it would be alright that all human characters in the game are white? And that if anyone complains about it they are bigots?

You can't butter your bread on both sides.

Staal:
Knight Templar's assertion that if a white person prefers a white romance option that they are racist

Read what I have actually said.

If you must intentionally and obviously lie about me to make any headway, then you need to stop and think if you have any ground to stand on at all.

Knight Templar:

Staal:
Knight Templar's assertion that if a white person prefers a white romance option that they are racist

Read what I have actually said.

If you must intentionally and obviously lie about me to make any headway, then you need to stop and think if you have any ground to stand on at all.

No. Your defense that you used the term "borderline racist" instead of "racist" doesn't wash. You know exactly the impact and meaning for most people that the use of the word racist has whether it has an descriptive element or not. Your are implying that a white guy that prefers a white girl is fundamentally wrong. That is where you and I are at odds.

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