Electronic Arts VP Says Sexism Complaints Are "Misguided"

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Crono1973:

Varitel:

Gearhead mk2:
From what I can tell, there aren't really too many women on game design courses or in game studios, just from personal choice.

I think that the so-called personal choice may actually stem from inherently sexist social pressures. This is the same for almost all of the tech fields. There is this norm that dictates that women don't write code or build things or whatever, that those are "guy" things. There isn't a good reason for it, but such pressures do exist and are also a problem. I spent 4 years pursuing a B.S. in Electrical Engineering, and if you add up all of the women who were ever in any of my engineering classes, you'd get maybe 12. If that many men are "choosing" to go into engineering and that few women, there must be some externalities at work.

Yes, like women making different choices. I just love how women can't even be responsible for their own choices, there is always a man to blame for everything.

That's not at all what I meant. I meant to argue that everyone's choices, men's and women's, are influenced to some degree by societal pressures. It's not about placing blame on one gender or another, and of course other factors come into play as well. This is actually related to one of the oldest debates in psychology, "nature vs. nurture". They are both factors in how we develop as individuals, but no one has yet to agree on which is more powerful. I worded it a bit more strongly that perhaps I should have, thank you for bringing light to that.

Varitel:

Crono1973:

Varitel:

I think that the so-called personal choice may actually stem from inherently sexist social pressures. This is the same for almost all of the tech fields. There is this norm that dictates that women don't write code or build things or whatever, that those are "guy" things. There isn't a good reason for it, but such pressures do exist and are also a problem. I spent 4 years pursuing a B.S. in Electrical Engineering, and if you add up all of the women who were ever in any of my engineering classes, you'd get maybe 12. If that many men are "choosing" to go into engineering and that few women, there must be some externalities at work.

Yes, like women making different choices. I just love how women can't even be responsible for their own choices, there is always a man to blame for everything.

That's not at all what I meant. I meant to argue that everyone's choices, men's and women's, are influenced to some degree by societal pressures. It's not about placing blame on one gender or another, and of course other factors come into play as well. This is actually related to one of the oldest debates in psychology, "nature vs. nurture". They are both factors in how we develop as individuals, but no one has yet to agree on which is more powerful. I worded it a bit more strongly that perhaps I should have, thank you for bringing light to that.

I agree that society influences everyone but I don't think it's fair that it only counts when it affects women negatively. I really wasn't talking to you specifically with that last sentence from my first post, it was more a general criticism to how these conversations go.

I think people need to start thinking more equal minded (like you are) instead of just saying man = oppressor, woman = victim.

I wholeheartedly hope she is right (regarding the presumed absence of sexism), and that her message encouraging women to take a more firm foothold in the industry is heard and takes root.

Darken12:
I wholeheartedly hope she is right (regarding the presumed absence of sexism), and that her message encouraging women to take a more firm foothold in the industry is heard and takes root.

I don't think she was claiming an absence just not a stark difference from any other industry/business these days. Which I think is a very reasonable conclusion to come to. I for one plan on taking her up on the offer in a few years, assuming everything goes super well.

Also... am I the only one who finds Mr. Chalk to be a poor journalist? I mean he writes well and it's not like he's got uninformed opinions, but the guy doesn't seem to know/care a damn thing about the way journalism is suppose to work. Nearly all his articles are just leading towards conclusions and not really the most informative. I understand your suppose to be selling a product of sorts but just tell the story and leave out the editorializing. We aren't here for your opinions on the matter Mr. Chalk.

th3dark3rsh33p:
I don't think she was claiming an absence just not a stark difference from any other industry/business these days. Which I think is a very reasonable conclusion to come to. I for one plan on taking her up on the offer in a few years, assuming everything goes super well.

I meant sexism in excess of the norm. One would think that with the treatment of women in videogames and the whole Sarkeesian disaster, that the industry would be similar (I mean, look at the Dead Island: Riptide severed bust. I wonder if some of the developers were women, and whether they thought that might be in poor taste).

I find it depressing that this opinion is only considered valid because it was a woman who has it. When earlier sentiments have been expressed by men they have been shot down, ignored or simply mocked.

There is not some magical restriction in the game industry that states "you must have these genitals to ride". The reason there are less women in the gaming industry is because less are interested in the gaming industry because of some self fulfilling prophecy stating that the industry is sexist and the number of women not in the industry proves it! Talk about circular causality.

Alright! New plan! Grab John Riccitello, throw him out on his arse (or demote him at the very least) and put this woman in his place! Dunno how she'd do, but lord knows I'm willing to take a chance on this one!

Darken12:

th3dark3rsh33p:
I don't think she was claiming an absence just not a stark difference from any other industry/business these days. Which I think is a very reasonable conclusion to come to. I for one plan on taking her up on the offer in a few years, assuming everything goes super well.

I meant sexism in excess of the norm. One would think that with the treatment of women in videogames and the whole Sarkeesian disaster, that the industry would be similar (I mean, look at the Dead Island: Riptide severed bust. I wonder if some of the developers were women, and whether they thought that might be in poor taste).

I think its a misconception of joining the industry itself with the community that has congregated around it. I'd agree with you that the gaming community itself is probably more sexist/homophobic on a percentage level then the average populace, but you have to divorce the community from the professional industry that has to deal with legal matters, corporate oversight and lets face it just benign self interest. I'm just GLAD to not be surprised on this matter and to see that it's a rather level headed place in the industry itself. Well... I'm glad that one piece of evidence supports the claim at least.

Gearhead mk2:
I think there is some truth to this. From what I can tell, there aren't really too many women on game design courses or in game studios, just from personal choice. That said, sexism in the industry and the community is still an issue, and we do need to talk about it and try to weed it out.

On the flipside, there are fewer women in general in technical fields and women tend to perform worse at math and science.

We can believe that women just aren't good at math and science and the like, or look to external issues.

So yeah, there may be a grain of truth, but I think it's coated in a big wad of something else.

It's a valid point. I'm in an electronics engineering course, which is a "stereotypical male career". We don't have any problem with women, it's just that only TWO applied, and then one dropped out because of constant illness.

So we have one girl in a class of twenty. Because we're so sexist, right? No, because women may apply, but they just aren't.

It's reversed in the nursing industry. I recently visited my sister in the hospital, and there was not a male nurse to be seen. Because sexism? No, because men don't often apply to nursing. I know some do (I even know a guy who has), but they're so rare right now that we'll have to wait for things to balance out naturally. Even if we only accepted male nursing applications starting tomorrow, we still wouldn't have an influx of male nurses for another six or seven years...

Zachary Amaranth:

Gearhead mk2:
I think there is some truth to this. From what I can tell, there aren't really too many women on game design courses or in game studios, just from personal choice. That said, sexism in the industry and the community is still an issue, and we do need to talk about it and try to weed it out.

On the flipside, there are fewer women in general in technical fields and women tend to perform worse at math and science.

We can believe that women just aren't good at math and science and the like, or look to external issues.

So yeah, there may be a grain of truth, but I think it's coated in a big wad of something else.

I don't think the lady was denying that there was sexism in the industry. She was just saying that it wasn't anymore prevalent in the games industry then any other technical field. The gaming industry itself isn't an anomaly of antiquated 50's sexism. It's got problems but nothing more then the general cultural problem we have regarding the subject.

th3dark3rsh33p:
I think its a misconception of joining the industry itself with the community that has congregated around it. I'd agree with you that the gaming community itself is probably more sexist/homophobic on a percentage level then the average populace, but you have to divorce the community from the professional industry that has to deal with legal matters, corporate oversight and lets face it just benign self interest. I'm just GLAD to not be surprised on this matter and to see that it's a rather level headed place in the industry itself. Well... I'm glad that one piece of evidence supports the claim at least.

I think you make a fairly good point, as the community doesn't have to abide by any discrimination laws or fear any lawsuits. However, that doesn't mean that the mentality isn't the same. Just because your coworkers treat you politely doesn't mean they don't think you're just a piece of meat. Again, I point out the portrayal of women in videogames, relegated to secondary roles (usually as victims, supporting cast, prizes to fight over or sources of motivation for male heroes), their chainmail bikinis and revealing outfits, their general objectification and so on. It's hard to tell if game developers are genuinely that juvenile and inadvertently sexist/homophobic/etc or if they are aware of the horrible things they put out (like the DI:R bust) and do it because they think that's what they need to do to stay in business.

Zachary Amaranth:

Gearhead mk2:
I think there is some truth to this. From what I can tell, there aren't really too many women on game design courses or in game studios, just from personal choice. That said, sexism in the industry and the community is still an issue, and we do need to talk about it and try to weed it out.

On the flipside, there are fewer women in general in technical fields and women tend to perform worse at math and science.

We can believe that women just aren't good at math and science and the like, or look to external issues.

So yeah, there may be a grain of truth, but I think it's coated in a big wad of something else.

Keep in mind that testosterone/estrogen may cause brains to work differently based on how much is present. Some stereotypes exist for a reason.

(I'm not saying which ones because I don't presume to know which are accurate, so don't feel the need to viciously attack me for being open to unpopular possibilities.)

She's right of course, but the fact remains. It's still sexism that makes a great deal of women feel that way. It is changing though; slowly. It's good to see. :D

Abomination:
I find it depressing that this opinion is only considered valid because it was a woman who has it. When earlier sentiments have been expressed by men they have been shot down, ignored or simply mocked.

To be fair, it's an issue where a woman's opinion carries far more weight than a man's. A woman can speak far more authoritatively on whether a workplace is hostile to women, because she's speaking from first-hand experience.

That isn't to say a man's opinion should be ignored or ridiculed, but it can be hard to tell whether he has any idea what he's talking about, especially since men by and large don't experience sexism at all.

Darken12:

th3dark3rsh33p:
I think its a misconception of joining the industry itself with the community that has congregated around it. I'd agree with you that the gaming community itself is probably more sexist/homophobic on a percentage level then the average populace, but you have to divorce the community from the professional industry that has to deal with legal matters, corporate oversight and lets face it just benign self interest. I'm just GLAD to not be surprised on this matter and to see that it's a rather level headed place in the industry itself. Well... I'm glad that one piece of evidence supports the claim at least.

I think you make a fairly good point, as the community doesn't have to abide by any discrimination laws or fear any lawsuits. However, that doesn't mean that the mentality isn't the same. Just because your coworkers treat you politely doesn't mean they don't think you're just a piece of meat. Again, I point out the portrayal of women in videogames, relegated to secondary roles (usually as victims, supporting cast, prizes to fight over or sources of motivation for male heroes), their chainmail bikinis and revealing outfits, their general objectification and so on. It's hard to tell if game developers are genuinely that juvenile and inadvertently sexist/homophobic/etc or if they are aware of the horrible things they put out (like the DI:R bust) and do it because they think that's what they need to do to stay in business.

I think many... many of the slip ups that happen are a case of just not thinking things through and the lack of a substantial female perspective in the industry as a whole. That is an effect of things, not a cause however. I'll admit the riptide thing as really gross, and unappealing (sexist? ehh maybe... it's just really fucking gross man does have to be anything more then that.) but that doesn't make chain mail bikinis or scantily clad women BAD, it just means you have to take it for what it is. Hell some of my favorite deviant art artists(all women), do a lot of scantily clad women drawings just because that's what they like to draw. It's there thing, they're good at it. They don't see putting the female form on a pedestal of idealism as something bad. Sexism is when that is the ONLY option or a forced option in which it is the ONLY way a female can succeed. I agree with the sentiment that it's still not where it needs to be, it's far from where it needs to be but that stuff existing is not inherently bad/sexist/evil.

Darken12:

th3dark3rsh33p:
I think its a misconception of joining the industry itself with the community that has congregated around it. I'd agree with you that the gaming community itself is probably more sexist/homophobic on a percentage level then the average populace, but you have to divorce the community from the professional industry that has to deal with legal matters, corporate oversight and lets face it just benign self interest. I'm just GLAD to not be surprised on this matter and to see that it's a rather level headed place in the industry itself. Well... I'm glad that one piece of evidence supports the claim at least.

I think you make a fairly good point, as the community doesn't have to abide by any discrimination laws or fear any lawsuits. However, that doesn't mean that the mentality isn't the same. Just because your coworkers treat you politely doesn't mean they don't think you're just a piece of meat. Again, I point out the portrayal of women in videogames, relegated to secondary roles (usually as victims, supporting cast, prizes to fight over or sources of motivation for male heroes), their chainmail bikinis and revealing outfits, their general objectification and so on. It's hard to tell if game developers are genuinely that juvenile and inadvertently sexist/homophobic/etc or if they are aware of the horrible things they put out (like the DI:R bust) and do it because they think that's what they need to do to stay in business.

I'm actually going to take umbrage with this.

I haven't seen the "stereotypical secondary chunk-of-meat" female character in... a LONG time, now. Maybe it's just the games I play?

Mirror's Edge is a good example. Faith is a cynical law-stretcher who's a hell of a better runner than you, her sister is a cop with a powerful sense of integrity, they act like sisters, and the game never treats them as anything else. Furthermore, Celeste is another ass-kicking runner... who is never really built up, but she's still not viewed as anything other than Faith's friend until (spoiler: PLAY THE GAME). In terms of sexuality, it's virtually non-existant. Faith and Celeste are in conservative tank-tops and baggy runner's pants because of what they do all the time, and Kate's in a conservative cop uniform. Even better, Faith absolutely hands people's asses to them, male AND female. Not much of a pretty face, is she?

In the Myst series, all the take-action characters are girls (except the villains). Yeesha actively defends herself against kidnappers, and then later in life, she restarts life in the entire cavern. Catherine starts out as a damsel in distress, but after she's freed, she promptly evacuates an entire civilization within an hour or so. That's damned impressive.

And that's OLD news, it hasn't gotten worse nowadays. In The Sims, women are statistically equal to men. Same with XCOM and Skyrim (in previous games, men and women were statistically equal, but different). Velvet Assassin was about a female spy. Lara Croft still kicks all the ass, and has had her infamous bust shrunk to almost realistic proportions over the last few games. Sexism in games themselves is nearly dead.

I haven't even seen the oh-so-sexist chainmail bikini in any non-Japanese game in... years.

lacktheknack:

(I'm not saying which ones because I don't presume to know which are accurate, so don't feel the need to viciously attack me for being open to unpopular possibilities.)

Maybe you should know what you're talking about before you say such things, rather than defensively posting that you're only affirming a possibility.

Especially since it IS tripe here.

Some stereotypes exist for no good reason.

Zachary Amaranth:

lacktheknack:

(I'm not saying which ones because I don't presume to know which are accurate, so don't feel the need to viciously attack me for being open to unpopular possibilities.)

Maybe you should know what you're talking about before you say such things, rather than defensively posting that you're only affirming a possibility.

Especially since it IS tripe here.

Some stereotypes exist for no good reason.

You're saying hormones don't affect brain patter-

lacktheknack, STAHP. You've been through this before. [shuffles off]

lacktheknack:

Zachary Amaranth:

Gearhead mk2:
I think there is some truth to this. From what I can tell, there aren't really too many women on game design courses or in game studios, just from personal choice. That said, sexism in the industry and the community is still an issue, and we do need to talk about it and try to weed it out.

On the flipside, there are fewer women in general in technical fields and women tend to perform worse at math and science.

We can believe that women just aren't good at math and science and the like, or look to external issues.

So yeah, there may be a grain of truth, but I think it's coated in a big wad of something else.

Keep in mind that testosterone/estrogen may cause brains to work differently based on how much is present. Some stereotypes exist for a reason.

(I'm not saying which ones because I don't presume to know which are accurate, so don't feel the need to viciously attack me for being open to unpopular possibilities.)

I've actually heard that genders remember things differently, things like shape and color as opposed to weather or not it was a threat. But the truth is you can't be sure how much of their behavior is due to preconceptions in society. Like you were saying about having only one woman in your engineering class: You could be the most welcoming profession in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that women simply aren't expected or encouraged to become engineers. Same goes for male nursing, and it's not as though there isn't still some stigma for those who try to go against gender roles.

The issue wouldn't sexism in an specific industry, it's sexism in general.

DVS BSTrD:

lacktheknack:

Zachary Amaranth:

On the flipside, there are fewer women in general in technical fields and women tend to perform worse at math and science.

We can believe that women just aren't good at math and science and the like, or look to external issues.

So yeah, there may be a grain of truth, but I think it's coated in a big wad of something else.

Keep in mind that testosterone/estrogen may cause brains to work differently based on how much is present. Some stereotypes exist for a reason.

(I'm not saying which ones because I don't presume to know which are accurate, so don't feel the need to viciously attack me for being open to unpopular possibilities.)

I've actually heard that genders remember things differently, things like shape and color as opposed to weather or not it was a threat. But the truth is you can't be sure how much of their behavior is due to preconceptions in society. Like you were saying about having only one woman in your engineering class: You could be the most welcoming profession in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that women simply aren't expected or encouraged to become engineers. Same goes for male nursing, and it's not as though there isn't still some stigma for those who try to go against gender roles.

The issue wouldn't sexism in an specific industry, it's sexism in general.

In that case, I don't see why the industry is expected to fix it if it's a society issue.

I think it is good that the doors are open, officially at least. I'm a little too well-read to believe that the reality of an industry can be taken from the comments of one (possibly token) female VP who is no doubt herself under a great deal of - spoken or unspoken, direct or indirect - pressure to present a positive picture of the industry she's placed in and the company she represents. The roots of why society tends towards patriarchy are long and deep and - not to dishearten anyone fighting "the good fight" - they are not getting pulled up any time soon. Not without a full reorganization of human society. Being that we're rather stuck with an imperfect situation, making the best of it is about all we can do. I'd love to see my ladies in games - I'd love to see more people in games, of either gender, so long as they are passionate about what they do.

bananafishtoday:

Abomination:
I find it depressing that this opinion is only considered valid because it was a woman who has it. When earlier sentiments have been expressed by men they have been shot down, ignored or simply mocked.

To be fair, it's an issue where a woman's opinion carries far more weight than a man's. A woman can speak far more authoritatively on whether a workplace is hostile to women, because she's speaking from first-hand experience.

That isn't to say a man's opinion should be ignored or ridiculed, but it can be hard to tell whether he has any idea what he's talking about, especially since men by and large don't experience sexism at all.

Just because one doesn't have something happen to them directly does not mean they can not observe something happening or, in this case, not happening and comment on that.

It is just ironic that it takes sexism to clarify that no sexism is taking place in a particular industry.

I just hope there's not going to be a push for some kind of affirmative action to encourage women to enter the industry - not because I don't want women in the industry, I am entirely neutral on that subject - but because such incentives will likely be sexist in their application.

If an industry is dominated by a gender due to what the industry produces being marketed and consumed primarily (in currency figures, not capita) by that gender should we really complain when said gender is the dominant demographic? There doesn't need to be a 50/50 spilt everywhere - it honestly isn't worth the time, effort, resources, and interference in the industry to encourage or force such a situation. As long as there are no industry erected barriers to entry for either gender the situation should be ignored - something that is true in the video game industry, the nursing industry, accountancy, biology, chemistry, teaching... and so forth.

lacktheknack:

DVS BSTrD:

lacktheknack:

Keep in mind that testosterone/estrogen may cause brains to work differently based on how much is present. Some stereotypes exist for a reason.

(I'm not saying which ones because I don't presume to know which are accurate, so don't feel the need to viciously attack me for being open to unpopular possibilities.)

I've actually heard that genders remember things differently, things like shape and color as opposed to weather or not it was a threat. But the truth is you can't be sure how much of their behavior is due to preconceptions in society. Like you were saying about having only one woman in your engineering class: You could be the most welcoming profession in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that women simply aren't expected or encouraged to become engineers. Same goes for male nursing, and it's not as though there isn't still some stigma for those who try to go against gender roles.

The issue wouldn't sexism in an specific industry, it's sexism in general.

In that case, I don't see why the industry is expected to fix it if it's a society issue.

You're surprised videogames are being used as a scapegoat?

What! someone who works at EA said something I agree with?!?!?!?!?
It's a sign of the Apocalypse!!
(I always figured EA would be responsible for it, but not in this way)

Gearhead mk2:
I think there is some truth to this. From what I can tell, there aren't really too many women on game design courses or in game studios, just from personal choice. That said, sexism in the industry and the community is still an issue, and we do need to talk about it and try to weed it out.

I think that she has a point though because when you look at actual sexism its mostly just the cod crowd and when you compare that to the rest of us I feel its safe to say that most of us want more women. Hell the fact that everyone here is still having 24 page arguements on the matter is a case in point.

Also Sexism is kind of strong word when the worst offenses we tend to have are tits and one dimensional characters which is a bit too lazy in my book to count.(Just as many or more one dimensional male characters) Id say that laziness, pandering to certain demographics, and a trouble with writing women characters well when your a man are probably the main culprits none of which is defined as sexism to me.

I also think that these one dimensional characters are a biproduct of the medium where gameplay is first and characterization is often second. Add into that the view that the gaming hordes are all bad( I think this site is testament to the latter) and there you have the view that gamers are sexist pigs.(some certainly are though I wont argue that)

And sexism in videogames in my book is an active philosophy that women are less than you being intentionally expressed through videogames. Like when that one female boss in megaman took more hits per shot than any other megaman boss. That one counted in my mind. It takes more than a male expressing his natural desire through an interactive medium for me to cry sexism and all those isms.

All the complaints about tits seem to miss the point in my book. The fact that people like the girl who created skullgirls understands this too gives me confidence that my view is not ignorance.

Anywho feel free to disagree Im in no real mood to discuss. :D lmao

DVS BSTrD:

lacktheknack:

DVS BSTrD:
I've actually heard that genders remember things differently, things like shape and color as opposed to weather or not it was a threat. But the truth is you can't be sure how much of their behavior is due to preconceptions in society. Like you were saying about having only one woman in your engineering class: You could be the most welcoming profession in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that women simply aren't expected or encouraged to become engineers. Same goes for male nursing, and it's not as though there isn't still some stigma for those who try to go against gender roles.

The issue wouldn't sexism in an specific industry, it's sexism in general.

In that case, I don't see why the industry is expected to fix it if it's a society issue.

You're surprised videogames are being used as a scapegoat?

Its generally known that the environment is the higher determinant but that nature plays a big part too depending on who you are. A study shown that in regard to spatial manipulation.(that thing that allows you to move your body and head at the same time in a fps) Men tend to be better than women. However enough time behind a controller allowed women to equal out in this regard. This might explain why drones of women tend to flock to story based games like mass effect rather than cod but one can really only speculate and question. As to whether its the vagina or the enviroment that these women are being brought up in that makes there spatial manipulation tend toward being less is unknown to me.

Id like to point out that there are things that women tend to be better at than men. you know just to balance out the whole table rather than focus on that one thing.

I mean....WOMENZ JUST AS GOOD AS TEH MENZ AT HALOZ!!!!! lol jk I know. :D

lacktheknack:

DVS BSTrD:

lacktheknack:

Keep in mind that testosterone/estrogen may cause brains to work differently based on how much is present. Some stereotypes exist for a reason.

(I'm not saying which ones because I don't presume to know which are accurate, so don't feel the need to viciously attack me for being open to unpopular possibilities.)

I've actually heard that genders remember things differently, things like shape and color as opposed to weather or not it was a threat. But the truth is you can't be sure how much of their behavior is due to preconceptions in society. Like you were saying about having only one woman in your engineering class: You could be the most welcoming profession in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that women simply aren't expected or encouraged to become engineers. Same goes for male nursing, and it's not as though there isn't still some stigma for those who try to go against gender roles.

The issue wouldn't sexism in an specific industry, it's sexism in general.

In that case, I don't see why the industry is expected to fix it if it's a society issue.

I dunno, it might be that some people want the industry to be a leader in this regard, and show society the way to go. You might not be responsible for a problem, but you can sure as hell help to solve it. :\

Abomination:

bananafishtoday:

Abomination:
I find it depressing that this opinion is only considered valid because it was a woman who has it. When earlier sentiments have been expressed by men they have been shot down, ignored or simply mocked.

To be fair, it's an issue where a woman's opinion carries far more weight than a man's. A woman can speak far more authoritatively on whether a workplace is hostile to women, because she's speaking from first-hand experience.

That isn't to say a man's opinion should be ignored or ridiculed, but it can be hard to tell whether he has any idea what he's talking about, especially since men by and large don't experience sexism at all.

Just because one doesn't have something happen to them directly does not mean they can not observe something happening or, in this case, not happening and comment on that.

It is just ironic that it takes sexism to clarify that no sexism is taking place in a particular industry.

I didn't say men couldn't comment on the topic. I said women's comments are more valuable in this context, because this is something only women have to deal with. If I wanted to know about baking, I'd trust a baker more than I'd trust a bakery observer.

Abomination:
If an industry is dominated by a gender due to what the industry produces being marketed and consumed primarily (in currency figures, not capita) by that gender should we really complain when said gender is the dominant demographic? There doesn't need to be a 50/50 spilt everywhere - it honestly isn't worth the time, effort, resources, and interference in the industry to encourage or force such a situation. As long as there are no industry erected barriers to entry for either gender the situation should be ignored - something that is true in the video game industry, the nursing industry, accountancy, biology, chemistry, teaching... and so forth.

I don't think it should be forced, but I do think it should be encouraged.

If one believes that games should be first and foremost a business, then yeah, who the hell cares, maximize profit and don't rock the boat. But if one believes, as I do, that games should be first and foremost an artistic medium, it's crucial to have a diversity of voices working in the medium.

I suggest that people watch the first episode of "Brainwashing Norway" It is about how as a society becomes more equal in opportunity the gender divides in industries become more pronounced. That is if you feel like reading a lot of subtitles but it is very good.

bananafishtoday:

Abomination:
Just because one doesn't have something happen to them directly does not mean they can not observe something happening or, in this case, not happening and comment on that.

It is just ironic that it takes sexism to clarify that no sexism is taking place in a particular industry.

I didn't say men couldn't comment on the topic. I said women's comments are more valuable in this context, because this is something only women have to deal with. If I wanted to know about baking, I'd trust a baker more than I'd trust a bakery observer.

I didn't know being a woman was a "profession". But being in the video game industry certainly is one.

Abomination:
If an industry is dominated by a gender due to what the industry produces being marketed and consumed primarily (in currency figures, not capita) by that gender should we really complain when said gender is the dominant demographic? There doesn't need to be a 50/50 spilt everywhere - it honestly isn't worth the time, effort, resources, and interference in the industry to encourage or force such a situation. As long as there are no industry erected barriers to entry for either gender the situation should be ignored - something that is true in the video game industry, the nursing industry, accountancy, biology, chemistry, teaching... and so forth.

I don't think it should be forced, but I do think it should be encouraged.

If one believes that games should be first and foremost a business, then yeah, who the hell cares, maximize profit and don't rock the boat. But if one believes, as I do, that games should be first and foremost an artistic medium, it's crucial to have a diversity of voices working in the medium.

But how do you encourage it? If it really is art then it should occur organically without outside interference or urging. We are talking about a profession here and encouraging women into a profession will cost money - either by advertising or (heaven forbid) gender specific scholarships - money that doesn't need to be spent since if women want to design games they CAN design games.

i agree with what see says in some ways. i know a few "non scene" female gamers who have been so for a great many years and they don't identify as "gamers"...well not to you lot anyway :P

that said you know what else isn't limited to one sex ? the ability to spout positive sounding populist corporate bullshit...

th3dark3rsh33p:
I think many... many of the slip ups that happen are a case of just not thinking things through and the lack of a substantial female perspective in the industry as a whole. That is an effect of things, not a cause however. I'll admit the riptide thing as really gross, and unappealing (sexist? ehh maybe... it's just really fucking gross man does have to be anything more then that.) but that doesn't make chain mail bikinis or scantily clad women BAD, it just means you have to take it for what it is. Hell some of my favorite deviant art artists(all women), do a lot of scantily clad women drawings just because that's what they like to draw. It's there thing, they're good at it. They don't see putting the female form on a pedestal of idealism as something bad. Sexism is when that is the ONLY option or a forced option in which it is the ONLY way a female can succeed. I agree with the sentiment that it's still not where it needs to be, it's far from where it needs to be but that stuff existing is not inherently bad/sexist/evil.

I have nothing against fanservice, but it's the lack of egalitarian fanservice that hints at sexism. Why wasn't that torso something like this too? I mean, the intent of the torso is a horribly misguided idea to marry gore with fanservice (which only works for a minority of the population), but the idea that only female bodies are worth of objectification (regardless how horribly botched such objectification ends up being) means that, at the very nicest, the industry thinks only straight males play their games. Which isn't inherently sexist or homophobic, but misguided. When they know that such an assertion is false but insist on the traditional approach, it borders sexism and homophobia but can still be justified as the demographics not being commercially viable. When such demographics become commercially viable, any decision not to cater to them out of prejudice really does become sexist and homophobic.

lacktheknack:
*snip*

I'm going to do a retrospective from 2010 to 2012, using these three articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_in_video_gaming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_in_video_gaming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_in_video_gaming

And linking images to illustrate my point. 2010 gave us:

Bayonetta, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, No More Heroes 2, Dante's Inferno, Heavy Rain, God of War III, Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening, Mass Effect 2, Red Steel 2, Dead or Alive Paradise, Super Street Fighter IV, Red Dead Redemption, Heroes of Newerth (here's your revealing fantasy armour/chainmail bikini, merely 3 years ago, by a Western developer), Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty, Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light, Mafia II, Enslaved: Odyssey to the West, God of War: Ghost of Sparta and World of Warcraft: Cataclysm (which has always had bikini chainmail and never changed that fact).

2011 gave us:

Two Worlds II (more stripperrific fantasy armour), Dragon Age II, Yakuza 4, The Tomb Raider Trilogy, The Third Birthday (though I admit the cleavage is pretty tame), Dynasty Warriors 7, Brink (found an uncensored image that I cannot link), The Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings, Duke Nukem Forever (I am using the absolute tamest image that conveys my point), Hunted: The Demon's Forge, Call of Juarez: The Cartel, Shadows of the Damned, Catherine, No More Heroes: Heroes' Paradise, Dead Island, Rise of Nightmares, Gears of War 3 (though that's pretty tame), Dark Souls, Batman: Arkham City, House of the Dead: Overkill (there are a couple of images that are even worse), Saints Row: The Third and The King of Fighters XIII.

And 2012 brought us:

NeverDead, Amy, Soulcalibur V, Resident Evil: Revelations, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, The Darkness II, Shank 2, Mass Effect 3, Street Fighter X Tekken, I Am Alive, Ninja Gaiden 3, Risen 2: Dark Waters, Diablo III, Max Payne 3, Lollipop Chainsaw, Heroes of Ruin, Sleeping Dogs, Darksiders II, Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria, Torchlight II, Resident Evil 6, Hotline Miami, Halo 4, Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 and Tekken Tag Tournament 2.

And before anybody says anything, I urge you all to watch the latest episode of the Jimquisition, which addresses the proper way to respond when a game you like contains sexism/homophobia/racism and the like.

Darken12:

lacktheknack:
*snip*

I'm going to do a retrospective from 2010 to 2012, using these three articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_in_video_gaming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_in_video_gaming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_in_video_gaming

And linking images to illustrate my point. 2010 gave us:

Bayonetta, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, No More Heroes 2, Dante's Inferno, Heavy Rain, God of War III, Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening, Mass Effect 2, Red Steel 2, Dead or Alive Paradise, Super Street Fighter IV, Red Dead Redemption, Heroes of Newerth (here's your revealing fantasy armour/chainmail bikini, merely 3 years ago, by a Western developer), Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty, Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light, Mafia II, Enslaved: Odyssey to the West, God of War: Ghost of Sparta and World of Warcraft: Cataclysm (which has always had bikini chainmail and never changed that fact).

2011 gave us:

Two Worlds II (more stripperrific fantasy armour), Dragon Age II, Yakuza 4, The Tomb Raider Trilogy, The Third Birthday (though I admit the cleavage is pretty tame), Dynasty Warriors 7, Brink (found an uncensored image that I cannot link), The Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings, Duke Nukem Forever (I am using the absolute tamest image that conveys my point), Hunted: The Demon's Forge, Call of Juarez: The Cartel, Shadows of the Damned, Catherine, No More Heroes: Heroes' Paradise, Dead Island, Rise of Nightmares, Gears of War 3 (though that's pretty tame), Dark Souls, Batman: Arkham City, House of the Dead: Overkill (there are a couple of images that are even worse), Saints Row: The Third and The King of Fighters XIII.

And 2012 brought us:

NeverDead, Amy, Soulcalibur V, Resident Evil: Revelations, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, The Darkness II, Shank 2, Mass Effect 3, Street Fighter X Tekken, I Am Alive, Ninja Gaiden 3, Risen 2: Dark Waters, Diablo III, Max Payne 3, Lollipop Chainsaw, Heroes of Ruin, Sleeping Dogs, Darksiders II, Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria, Torchlight II, Resident Evil 6, Hotline Miami, Halo 4, Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 and Tekken Tag Tournament 2.

And before anybody says anything, I urge you all to watch the latest episode of the Jimquisition, which addresses the proper way to respond when a game you like contains sexism/homophobia/racism and the like.

You seem to have mistaken "Boobs Exist" with "I think women are of less value than men".

The Saints Row: The Third example, for instance, was a derp on my part... and yours. Shaundi is not a sexist portrayal, unless you're going to tell me that being aggressive and having boobs are incompatible. A better example would be mentioning every single female gang member wearing slinky getup (almost true), or the strippers in the hideouts.

Mentioning Catwoman, however, is entirely missing the point. As in, firing in entirely the wrong direction. Same with Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, Bayonetta, and even Lara Croft.

My original point was the lack of "stereotypical secondary chunk of meat", the vast majority of your examples are anything but. I admit there are examples in there I didn't think of (How did I forget Duke Nukem?) but the majority of your list was compiled with entirely the wrong idea in mind.

Also, I dislike Jimquisition and disagree with much of what he says. This week is included.

This is incredibly obvious to everyone who isnt a game journalist. why? because they took writing classes. In my programming classes (i took 6 before i quit) the averages was about 1 woman for every 5 men. in my 3d animation program, there were only 2 women in a class of 32. sexism would have a solid argument if this was not normal

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