Australian Parliament Subpoenas Microsoft, Apple on Price Hikes

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MagunBFP:
Snip

rapidoud:
Snip

This post is aimed at but not limited to anyone who responded to Therumancer, I would like to thank you for being right and let you know your posts are appreciated.

You are right, Therumancer is wrong. This person is either a troll or a bit dim. Everything they say is inflammatory and designed for a reaction. They will never respond to a legitimate counter argument. In their mind they are right and you are wrong.

I see many people trying to have a debate with this person and there is no point, they could be in a room with people telling them they are wrong but in their mind they would be right and it would be everyone else that was wrong, even if presented with evidence (as seen in this post).

So, be happy that everyone else agrees with you, I certainly do, along with everyone else responding to this troll. Don't bother feeding it any more, it cannot have a coherent argument (ie only picking out 1 point in your riposte and ignoring the rest of it, and usually a point that has little or nothing to do with the debate at hand).

Aardvaarkman:

Evil Smurf:
that's why I use steam and eBay for games. Fuck spending $90 for a Wii game. I can buy two nice bottles of burboun for that, or 5/6 of a concert ticket

$45 for a decent bottle of bourbon? You obviously don't live in Australia. A good bottle of spirits is going to cost you at least $60. A great bottle of spirits is going to cost around $90 to $150+. The game will give you many more hours of entertainment, too.

Okay, what bottle do you buy then? and Where? I suggest buying at Dan Murphy's or BWS.

Therumancer:

At the end of the day the bottom line is nobody wants to accept that there is a lot of truth in what I'm saying, and might even be predicting the outcome correctly (though with Adobe backing down it seems unlikely), as a result nobody wants to see the facts involved, and isn't going to bother to do the research. As a result it really doesn't matter if I was to take the time and load up hundreds of referances, because people would STILL argue with me and deny it because it isn't what they want to hear.

Case in point, you more or less conceded the sources, but in order to argue with me your pretty much saying that the entire breadty of news information I could probably have when it comes to business in Austalia is wrong and biased simply because it contridicts what you want right now. I mean think about exactly what your premptively dismissing on a subject like this and exactly how that makes you sound. "well yeah, a ton of published experts probably agree with you, and not many with me, but that just makes them biased". If it was a more politically charged issue like gay rights or something that kind of arguement might actually hold weight since it enters into an entirely differant arena, but business news and comments on markets and such tend to be pretty striaghtforward.

Are you still beating this dead horse? Let me make this crystal clear. No, there is no truth to what you are saying. Several posters (read: Australians) have told you that you are wrong in all your assumptions about Australia. Case closed.

If you are seriously wondering why people have responded with such umbrage, let me explain how you keep coming across. "All those people who live in Australia are just biased because they want to pay less! They won't accept the fact that their first-hand experience and knowledge of life in their country might not be as credible a source of information as my ability to follow the American media and glean knowledge from playing WoW with a few Australians!"

ResonanceSD:

Also apparently Therumancer has seen Crocodile Dundee recently and thinks that's how we all live here.

You mean we don't all have a backyard like this? I'm the only one?

Come to think of it, no wonder it costs so much to ship a game out here. They have to hire mercenaries to fight off the crocs as they approach the Gulf of Carpinteria.

MagunBFP:

Little Gray:

The thing is though that information is not really accurate. The average wage in the US is massively skewed because of the 1% in the US. If you eliminate them from both countries you will find that that average skyrockets. Hell your minimum wage is two to three times higher then that of the US. The reason you pay more for goods in Australia is because you make more. Its as simple at that. Its the same reason that a game in China or Russia does not cost the same as in the US. Different countries get different prices based on their situations.

So because I'm Australian that makes it alright to charge me more? Just because I'm richer then you? So if a guy walks into a store looking like a bum and buys a cheeseburger, then a guy in an expensive suit walks in and buys a cheeseburger it would be fine to double the price just because the suit has more money?

Did this guy even read what he was replying to? He goes and says this point about the wage in australia being higher as though we didn't think of it, even though the posts he was replying to not only said a) that we have heard this point, but more importantly b) that NZ has worse GDP than US and much worse than australia yet we're saddled with australian prices. Obviously there's more going on here than "they have more money so we'll charge them more."

Therumancer:

EvilRoy:
[

If you can't be bothered to make a real effort in a discussion, then do not bother posting.

Not quite, the point is that everything is out there, it's not like I'm bringing up some kind of obscure information from a secret website hidden behind 12 firewalls run by The Australian Illuminati or anything. It's all mainstream news, general information type stuff, combined with things that people have been saying continuously for years before it becomes inconveinent.

See, if it was down to having gotten information from just one or two people I played an MMO with, in most cases I wouldn't bother to mention it. This is more than that, being the analysis of trends and a lot of claims over a period of time, combined with very basic common knowlege stuff.

Case in point, you more or less conceded the sources, but in order to argue with me your pretty much saying that the entire breadty of news information I could probably have when it comes to business in Austalia is wrong and biased simply because it contridicts what you want right now. I mean think about exactly what your premptively dismissing on a subject like this and exactly how that makes you sound. "well yeah, a ton of published experts probably agree with you, and not many with me, but that just makes them biased". If it was a more politically charged issue like gay rights or something that kind of arguement might actually hold weight since it enters into an entirely differant arena, but business news and comments on markets and such tend to be pretty striaghtforward.

In the end we're not going to resolve it here. We'll see where it stands in a few weeks anyway. As I said, I could be wrong, and that wouldn't be a bad thing. But I still think there is a good chance my analysis of the situation will be pretty close in how it's going to play out.

Your response is pretty interesting in that it responds to a bunch of stuff that wasn't in my post. I can't tell if you're blithely trying to avoid the actual content and intention of what I said, if you're arguing with an imaginary opponent, or I was painfully indecipherable in my writing and that's why you're so confused. If the most former was the case then I will try to avoid it happening again by being as clear as possible.

I've not said anything with regards to the debate as to which side I agree with, beyond pointing out that as of yet you are 0 for 3 in terms of factual correctness in this thread so far. I've clipped out everything in your post that doesn't seem to apply to mine.

The problem I have with the first and second paragraph can basically be summed up with the question "what general information/common knowledge?" You reference it, but never describe it. Its as though you're saying the only possible logical conclusion that could come from this information is yours (more on that later) and we therefore don't need to see the information. You mention a long term analysis of business news, trends (trends of what?) and claims (claims by who? and about what?), but I can't find a single article that underlines or illustrates the conclusions you're drawing or the themes you talk about.

Paragraph 3:
I do not understand what you mean by "conceded the sources". Normally that would mean that I initially resisted the validity of your sources but eventually accepted them, but no where in my post was that the case. I never denied that Newsweek, television and your friends exist, I noted that without actually providing the topics, stories, whatever you are referring to we have no way of telling whether or not the things you attribute to those sources are true, or can be logically interpreted from the information presented.

To put it rather bluntly, I'm not questioning the existence or validity of the Newsweek, television news or your friends, I'm questioning your ability to accurately and logically interpret the information that you attribute to them, and whether or not that information exists.

I'm sorry but I found the rest of paragraph 3 to be indecipherable.

In the end we're not going to resolve it here. We'll see where it stands in a few weeks anyway. As I said, I could be wrong, and that wouldn't be a bad thing. But I still think there is a good chance my analysis of the situation will be pretty close in how it's going to play out.

No, it won't be resolved here indeed. I actually have to agree that your analysis will be pretty close to how the situation pans out, because your analysis basically states "because of vague reasons, the Aussie Govt will buckle" and since the only two options are [Govt buckles] and [Govt doesn't buckle] you have a 50% chance of being right.

Shamanic Rhythm:

ResonanceSD:

Also apparently Therumancer has seen Crocodile Dundee recently and thinks that's how we all live here.

You mean we don't all have a backyard like this? I'm the only one?

Come to think of it, no wonder it costs so much to ship a game out here. They have to hire mercenaries to fight off the crocs as they approach the Gulf of Carpinteria.

And the knives they have to buy those croc-hunters are huge too.

EvilRoy:
[
Your response is pretty interesting in that it responds to a bunch of stuff that wasn't in my post. I can't tell if you're blithely trying to avoid the actual content and intention of what I said, if you're arguing with an imaginary opponent, or I was painfully indecipherable in my writing and that's why you're so confused. If the most former was the case then I will try to avoid it happening again by being as clear as possible.

I've not said anything with regards to the debate as to which side I agree with, beyond pointing out that as of yet you are 0 for 3 in terms of factual correctness in this thread so far. I've clipped out everything in your post that doesn't seem to apply to mine.

.

I have gotten into the habit of simply omitting the irrelvent of things that I've already covered. I'm basically not going to get into "is so, is not, is so!" five year old shouting matches on the internet. If I've already stated something I know to be correct, and the issue is a matter of you not having done the research, or trying to dispute something simply because you don't like it, I'm not going to sink to that level and will simply focus on what's
relevent to move the discussion forward.

Case in point, the second paragraph I actually posted above, your making self-justified assersions that there were "0 out of 3 factual statements" which is simply hyperbole on your part and pretty much taints the validity of anything you have to say, especially when I'm this confident in my own information.

I'm not the best typist, but the bottom line is that the arguements I'm generally dealing with are akin to "Well you don't know any australians for this information" I point out that I do then it's like "well, those Australians don't count!". I point to the fact that a lot of my positions are based on what mainstream business sources have been saying on the subject, but "that doesn't count because they are all biased". Your basic arguement is tantamount to a bunch of people who are cheering for the possibility of getting cheaper goods, wanting to dismiss any implication, by anyone, that maybe, just maybe, the reasons for their high prices aren't as straightforward as they would like to believe.

Followed of course by a couple of people more or less on your side insinuating that because I don't agree with you, and am not going to dismiss what amounts to a lot of well entrenched information (that is acknowleged to exist no less) on the say so of a bunch of people on The Internet.

I mean it's fine that you disagree with me, your entitled to do so. I stated my opinion on the article we're talking about, you disagree with it, and that's fine. We're not going to agree. But constantly attacking me, my information, the media, and really a whole heck of a lot of stuff, is pretty out there, and yeah... I generally haven't been stooping to that level. There is no point in argueing specific points with you, when you've pretty much alreay said that any source I could produce would inherantly be biased simply because it disagrees with you. If your that insanely convinced of your own righteousness, and really there were saints with less faith apparently, WTF am I supposed to say to you when I disagree? Why even bother... and that my friend is why I have been trying to leave it at "agree to disagree" and withdraw from the conversation, because really, nothing good is going to come of it, you have by definition declared anything that disagrees with you entirely irrelevent, there are some subjects where admittedly that can apply, but this is not one of them. To put it frankly if Australia was so unapproachable and the rest of the world so ignorant involving it, it's affairs, and trade with it, right down to the businessmen occasionally talking about the market (from the perspective of making money, not from politics), we wouldn't be in a position where trade got to the point where we're down to bickering about the price of first world luxury goods and conveinence devices which in the big picture are about as irrelevent as something can be.

triorph:

MagunBFP:

Little Gray:

The thing is though that information is not really accurate. The average wage in the US is massively skewed because of the 1% in the US. If you eliminate them from both countries you will find that that average skyrockets. Hell your minimum wage is two to three times higher then that of the US. The reason you pay more for goods in Australia is because you make more. Its as simple at that. Its the same reason that a game in China or Russia does not cost the same as in the US. Different countries get different prices based on their situations.

So because I'm Australian that makes it alright to charge me more? Just because I'm richer then you? So if a guy walks into a store looking like a bum and buys a cheeseburger, then a guy in an expensive suit walks in and buys a cheeseburger it would be fine to double the price just because the suit has more money?

Did this guy even read what he was replying to? He goes and says this point about the wage in australia being higher as though we didn't think of it, even though the posts he was replying to not only said a) that we have heard this point, but more importantly b) that NZ has worse GDP than US and much worse than australia yet we're saddled with australian prices. Obviously there's more going on here than "they have more money so we'll charge them more."

I did read the post I was replying to... and in my understanding it pretty much says that because Australians make more then Americans (on average) we should be chaged more... and I quote

The reason you pay more for goods in Australia is because you make more. Its as simple at that.

So because I make more money (read: am richer) I should be charged more?

As far as NZ being charged more I'm pretty sure the minimum wage in NZ in alot higher then the US minimum wage, so although the NZ dollar is weaker you're still making more money individually the Americans, which was the reason given for people being charged more. That being said if the minimum wage in NZ isn't that much higher then I have no idea what justification they use to rip you off unless they just think you're as rich as Australia without doiong any research just like Therumancer has been.

Therumancer:
This is like watching a slow motion train wreck to be honest. The stupdity of American goverment and guys like Obama boggles me until I watch some other goverments in action. Given the censorship garbage, and their general lack of a grasp on technology and trade I think the Australian goverment should refrain on trying to make desicians on anything involving technology more advanced than a sharp stick.... I know some will be apaled by an outsider saying this, but I've heard other Aussies say the same thing on related subjects over the years.

The basic gist of the situation is this. I'm sympathetic to people who want cheaper luxuries, especially things I also enjoy like video games. A lot of the people in my WoW raiding guild were Aussies or Kiwis, from whom I grabbed a lot of my insights into the situation fro a number of angles. But to be brutally honest the "Continent Down Under" is still fairly isolated globally (there is no magical cure for geography until we have matter transporters), and a lot of the region's charm and what people want to preserve are the anti-thesis of technological development and a lot of the things that would make arguements like the one the goverment is going to raise meaningfully.

The bottom line is this, when it comes to physical products being shipped to Australia, you still need to load them onto a boat or a plane and bring them there. There is more to it than a simple question of the relative value of currency. The price of fuel, wages for crewmen, etc... all contribute, and like it or not with shipping companies (plane and boat) having problems, the rising cost of fuel, etc... combined with the weakened US economy and shifts in priorities makes bringing goods to The Land Down Under even more of a pain, and more expensive, than ever before. On some levels Australians are getting foreign goods incredibly cheaply due to positive global relations, given the
expense involved in physical trade.

When it comes to issues like digital good and the like, understand that it's not magic, all of that takes technology. You need a telecommunications infrastructure to upload, download, and distribute files. By many accounts Austrlia's internet sucks balls to put it bluntly, which makes it a pain for people doing telecommunications stuff to deal with. The goverment has little interest in improving it apparently, and given the desire to leave large parts of Austrlia with it's rustic, undevleoped charm, it means that it's a pain for private carriers to build and maintain things like wireless towers. If I've heard correctly the conditions in the major cities are far differant from the majority of the country and how it functions technologically when it comes to things like the functionality of internet and wireless services.

All of this means that people have to work harder, and spend more money and effort, to bring these kinds of goods and services to Australia. A goverment that (again if I heard correctly) that has no desire to prioritize investing in it's telecommunications and internet, has no business complaining to IT companies when their own pain in the arse policies lead to high prices.

When it comes to games and such there is also a flip side to this as well. Aussies, like people from Europe and such, seem to like to go off about their general lack of anti-piracy enforcement and the insanity of the idea of people going to jail for "stealing" a video game or whatever. I don't know how this works in actual legal terms, but I'm guessing there is some actually on-the-books precedent or protections here that lead to such confidence. Needless to say game producers probably aren't lining up to make their products and IPS availible in a country that pretty much gives free reign to steal what they bring over. That kind of thing probably does influance even digital prices, and if you were on the business side of things you'd probably think the same way.

The end result here is that I'll be very surprised if this ends well. People would like to view this as a powerful goverment calling a bunch of naughty, corperate, children to task and forcing them to change their behavior and be more generous. Sadly I think there is enough legitimacy here (even going by the aussies I've talked to, and their criticisms of goverment policy and electronic infrastructure) that there is no good way it's going to end. The big IT companies are not going to lower their prices under the current situation, and I can't see Australia actually investing in the kinds of infrastructure australian gamers and tech users have wanted for a long time, nor is Australia going to offer to pick up part of the tab as far as transport costs for the physical goods. Given what a pain it all is, if Australia puts it's foot down too hard it might just render itself too much of a pain for any potential profits that could be reaped. I see more potential for these companies to say "F@ck it, your not worth the trouble" and just refuse to do business under these circumstances, than any kind of massive lowering of prices on their good without major compromises from Australia. The most LIKELY actual outcome of this is going to be Australia making a big scene, nothing of note changing, but there being some bad blood that will come back to haunt everyone because at the end of the day big IT companies don't like being brought in for show trials, and being pissed off might very well come out in some "subtle" ways in their future trade.

I could be wrong, but that's my analysis of it. As I said, my initial impression is that like in most technology related issues, Australia's goverment(s) seems pretty bloody dumb and out of touch.

If Australia wants to do better here it needs to become more inviting. Pump up it's internet even to the rural regions, install far more cell and wireless towers to increase coverage along with the infrastructure to make maitnence less of a chore. Pass laws to protect foreign IPs and copyrights (even if it makes it so people go to jail), and perhaps cut some kind of a deal to cover part of shipping expenses for foreign trade. With the rising cost of fuel, filling up those planes and cargo boats is becoming even more expensive, is the Aussie goverment agreed to pay say half the fuel bill or whatever on incoming goods, it could then make a valid claim for those goods to be cheaper.

You're not entirely wrong about the points you've given, but there are a few things you need to get straightened out. First off, yeah Australian government isn't what I would like it to be. To be honest, they're kinda useless and have broken A LOT of their promises. Anyway...what you said about the cost of importing goods to Australia, yes it should bump up the price a bit, but in a study it was found that the increase from 60 to 100 dollars is roughly 30 dollars too much, especially when the Aussie dollar was well above the American dollar. So while I don't expect physical copies of products to be the exact same as Americas, it should be cheaper than what it currently is. As for the digital copies, there is absolutely NO reason for them to be marked up. While our internet speed is not great compared to other countries, it is definately not terrible. Onto what the government has done right is that they have set out this plan that has already started to replace all the cables with new and better cables that will make our internet speed and connection FAR FAR better. So yeah, it's not so much Australia having all these problems as it is Apple, Microsoft and Adobe being greedy and refusing to drop prices because they like the extra profit they get. I have no problem with companies making profit, but when they are specifically making it more expensive for certain countries regardless of their economic power, that is when I get pissed off.

I was hoping this would expand my faith in humanity, but of course these companies wouldn't have done jack shit on their own unless they'd been tied down & dragged through the muck in front of a crowd, & they'll probably slowly try to raise them again.

I do feel really happy for Aussies though.

I've clipped it with quote tags this time to make what I'm referring to more clear.

Therumancer:

EvilRoy:

Your response is pretty interesting in that it responds to a bunch of stuff that wasn't in my post. I can't tell if you're blithely trying to avoid the actual content and intention of what I said, if you're arguing with an imaginary opponent, or I was painfully indecipherable in my writing and that's why you're so confused. If the most former was the case then I will try to avoid it happening again by being as clear as possible.

I've not said anything with regards to the debate as to which side I agree with, beyond pointing out that as of yet you are 0 for 3 in terms of factual correctness in this thread so far. I've clipped out everything in your post that doesn't seem to apply to mine.

.

I have gotten into the habit of simply omitting the irrelvent of things that I've already covered. I'm basically not going to get into "is so, is not, is so!" five year old shouting matches on the internet. If I've already stated something I know to be correct, and the issue is a matter of you not having done the research, or trying to dispute something simply because you don't like it, I'm not going to sink to that level and will simply focus on what's
relevent to move the discussion forward.

Case in point, the second paragraph I actually posted above, your making self-justified assersions that there were "0 out of 3 factual statements" which is simply hyperbole on your part and pretty much taints the validity of anything you have to say, especially when I'm this confident in my own information.

Having re-read your earlier posts I suppose it would be more fair to say that you have made three factually incorrect inferences throughout the thread:

1. How Australian internet service works
2. That the reason retail items are often cheaper than digital copies because they are primarily bootleg
3. That legislation exists in order to prevent digitally sales from undercutting retail sales

In each case you were indisputably incorrect, I researched each point attempting to support your statements and found nothing. If you want to move on from these points, fine, but that is what I was referring to when I noted that you were "0 for 3".

Therumancer:

I mean it's fine that you disagree with me, your entitled to do so. I stated my opinion on the article we're talking about, you disagree with it, and that's fine. We're not going to agree. But constantly attacking me, my information, the media, and really a whole heck of a lot of stuff, is pretty out there, and yeah... I generally haven't been stooping to that level.

Honestly my posts have nothing to with the debate at hand, I simply couldn't believe

1) how unbelievably condescending the first post of yours I responded to was
2) that you would actually imply for a moment that because this is an internet debate there is no reason for you to source your claims

Therumancer:

There is no point in argueing specific points with you, when you've pretty much alreay said that any source I could produce would inherantly be biased simply because it disagrees with you.

I have never, ever said or implied that, in this thread, on this website, in my life.

Therumancer:

If your that insanely convinced of your own righteousness, and really there were saints with less faith apparently, WTF am I supposed to say to you when I disagree?

You are SUPPOSED to CITE a SOURCE.

Therumancer:

Why even bother... and that my friend is why I have been trying to leave it at "agree to disagree" and withdraw from the conversation, because really, nothing good is going to come of it, you have by definition declared anything that disagrees with you entirely irrelevent, there are some subjects where admittedly that can apply, but this is not one of them.

At this point I would like to demand that you show me specifically where I ever said or implied that I would not accept any source that disagrees with me. Because the claim does not exist. If the implication exists as you see it, then I will gladly apologize.

MagunBFP:

Therumancer:

Snip because there are several posts where I have factual and practical evidence that you're wrong

Mate, I want to point out a few facts here, so you may want to skip my reply... especially seeing as you're convinced we're done because I disagreed with your opinion.

1. If your sample size of Aussies is less then 5,000 then its a small statistical sampling, and given that they were all gamers with most probably in a similiar socio-economic situation you are likely not getting the whole picture... and to infer the whole picture from say just the edge of the puzzle isn't going to give you much insight

2. The news programs in America aren't exactly know for hiding their bias, I've watch Jon Stewart and Colbert but that doesn't mean I know enough to comment on the idiocy of rejecting Obama Care (ie Mitt Romney swearing to repeal it in his first day in office)... well besides the fact that the US is the only first world country without universal health care, but thats a topic for a different thread. As a curiosity, who did you vote for in your election?

.

In general argueing banality doesn't make a point.

The bottom line is this, I know people from Austalia and have discussed issues like this with them before. I doubt either of us could produce 5,000 people as a sampling on pretty much any subject, and as clever as such a thing might make you feel in the short term, think about how stupid that really sounds. At the end of the day your big problem is that the information I've gotten is not something that supports what YOU want to think on this subject right now.

Basically you've got a few options here on the first point, one is that you can say I'm lying, I've never known people from Austalia, or that the subject of say discussing video game prices and the trade thereof has ever come up (as it might if you know, I was talking to gamers). The other is to imply that there is some conspiricy in place to try and convince people of things just so they would sound off with these positions on internet discussions.... neither of which is paticularly likely or rational.

As I've explained before, context matters. The discussions I've had on the subject were well before this current issue, and as such the information I'm using is more of the "general knowlege" variety rather than Aussies actually having the same exact opinion that I do on an issue that did not exist at the time we had this discussion. To be entirely honest the people I was talking to would fanatically agree with you, since they would also want cheaper software. Hence the point that was is said in general conversation and the information given, does not always work in favor of points people later want to make or what they want to believe. Your complaint one day, might very well wind up explaining why something else doesn't go your way on another, or why something you want isn't practical.

When it comes to US News Bias, in general it DOES have a left wing political bias, but at the same time we're not talking about TV news shows. We're talking about business information, every once in a while I'll sit down and read an article about business involving computers, technology, video games, and similar things. It's how I get a bit of my insights into the gaming industry (which people also hate), the rat race between microprocessor producers, and similar things. The issue of dealing with Australia in terms of shipping, Australian Infrastructure, actual product demand, the viability of manufacturing things down there, etc... does occasionally come up. It wasnt quite *that* long ago that Australian gamers were irritated about kind of getting shut out on the whole "plastic insturments" craze with the big band sets and such, Yahtzee even made some cracks about it during his reviews. I read quite a bit about how the business angles of that whole problem worked given the size of some of the packages combined with demand, shipping, etc... which all seemed pretty straightforward and reasonable as to why Australia was not exactly high on the priority list.

Now yes, if this was something on the TV news about a social issue, or some kind of serious goverment vs. goverment matter, then you could expect there to be a bias, albiet one you'd probably wind up agreeing with. In general when it comes to dicussions of business in print media and such, it's usually focused on the nuts and bolts of the whole thing with an eye towards what might be an investment oppertunity to potentially look forward to, and guesses as to how various "rounds" between chip manufacturers might play out given the marketplace and relative capabilities, and what kind of distribution deals seem to be in place.

Unless there is some kind of actual trade war on here that I somehow missed, there is no reason for any kind of bias. At the end of the day nobody involved in this gives a crap about anything except for money. What we're fundementally argueing about is whether a handfull of greedy big businesses, are intentionally trying to screw Austalia with high prices because they can, and whether a threat from the Australian goverment could actually get them to lower their prices to what they charge elsewhere. You apparently think so. I on the other hand believe there is probably more to it than simple "because we can" greed, simply because this isn't the MO of these paticular monsters, they WANT market penetration (as I explained before) if they could get the volume of sales needed to lower their prices they probably would have done so.

You, and a few others, seem to be on this huge kick where you think I'm trying to knock Australia, complete with accusations of bigotry, racism, and everything else, and I definatly get the impression that at least some people seem to think this is in some way a US Vs. Australia national conflict. In reality it's entirely a business matter, and if you bothered to read my posts, I don't paticularly suck up to either the gamin industry, or the companies involved in this incident, indeed I get griped at for taking my dislike of the business end of gaming in paticular to an extreme, as this arguement was going on I was in another little back and forth with a guy who thought I was being unfair on picking on game developers as much as I do the publishers (agree with me or not, I feel both share responsibility for conditions in the industry).

I mean I hate to break it the hard way, but at the end of the day I'm just giving an opinion on the situation, Australia is a nice country and I've had some internet friends there, but at the end of the day I'm just not involved with it enough one way or another to have a vested interested on either defaming it or lionizing it... I just really don't care enough to go to the lengths some people seem to be accusing me of.

MagunBFP:

Little Gray:

The thing is though that information is not really accurate. The average wage in the US is massively skewed because of the 1% in the US. If you eliminate them from both countries you will find that that average skyrockets. Hell your minimum wage is two to three times higher then that of the US. The reason you pay more for goods in Australia is because you make more. Its as simple at that. Its the same reason that a game in China or Russia does not cost the same as in the US. Different countries get different prices based on their situations.

So because I'm Australian that makes it alright to charge me more? Just because I'm richer then you? So if a guy walks into a store looking like a bum and buys a cheeseburger, then a guy in an expensive suit walks in and buys a cheeseburger it would be fine to double the price just because the suit has more money?

Why dont you try reading what I write before you reply.

Waaghpowa:

You must have missed someones earlier post where he states that shipping DVD/Games across the Atlantic/Pacific is only about 3 cents per. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.400827.16492879 . My post is based on the information he had given.

No shit going across the border is more expensive than mail, but I would think that crossing entire oceans would be more. If it only costs 3 cents to cross the Atlantic/Pacific, then what excuse is there for the charges cross border? If the costs he claims are true, then it very much is exploitative. They're charging hundreds, if not thousands, percent more than it actually costs.

So before calling people ignorant and fools, perhaps read other posts. I would also like to know what knowledge you have in shipping beyond general assumptions because at no point did I claim to know much about this.

I will start by saying I call bullshit on that three cents part. Its a random number that somebody pulled out of their ass with no proof.

The thing about shipping across the boarder is that there is paperwork to be filed for every item you are shipping. If you are going to be shipping 100,000 games to a warehouse or 1 game to an individual the paperwork is almost the exact same amount of work. This is why you pay more for shipping when you buy items across the boarder. This means its easier to ship large quantities of a product then individually.

As for my knowledge about shipping I used to work in distribution for a company when I first got out of highschool. I had to deal with a lot of cross boarder shipping between the US and Canada and learned about all the bullshit you had to deal with when shipping stuff across the boarder and some of the ridiculous taxes and regulations there was.

Therumancer:
snip

The thing about the 5,000 people was a point to indicate that your exposure to Australian opinions is basically a drop in the ocean, and given that all the Australian's you've spoken to have been gamers would suggest that their views are typically going to be similar. Quite specifically I know I have been exposed to 5,000 Australians and have heard their views on alot of things... I've even directly experienced Australia so have some practical knowledge to back me up. You haven't and infact you say that for the most part you've disregarded the opinions of the Australians you've spoken with and decided that they're wrong. So I'd actually say that the problem I have isn't that you don't agree with me... lots of people don't on lots of things, I'm a big boy I get over that, but that you're constant imagining on how things should be with not a single specific fact supporting you.

Your second paragraph... WTF??? Suggesting arguements that I'm never made only to suggest that its rediculous for me to ever suggest them, really?

If the information you got about Australia was well before this then the information you have isn't "general knowledge" its "outdated knowledge" you would do well to either keep up to date or look things up before you decide what the right side of this debate is.

Regarding the US News bias... I may have only been exposed to limited news over there but to someone with views leaning more to the right anything thats to the left or center looks like a left wing bias, and anything to the right will naturally look unbiased because it agrees with your world view... I suggest that if you can't see a left AND right bias (based on the media company, not in the one paper or show) then you're probably just as bias. For you to say that "business news is unbiased" thats incredibly foolish of you, everyone has an angle... just look at how different organsiations praise/loathe MS/Apple/Google its very rarely balanced.

As you say no one gives a crap about anything here except for money... the point you often see in here at the moment is that the price difference made sense once... but now rather then see their profit margins shrink or stay the same the companies see Australia as a region where they can have higher prices because we've always paid them, but now that costs have come down this price difference just increases the profit margin.

Last 2 points... first one is that you seem to be fixed on us just wanting stuff for less. You're almost right, we don't want it for less just because we're cheap we want it for less because if these companies have a profit margin of lets say 50% in the US what possibly reason do they have to justify a profit margin of 100% (or more) in Australia? I'm not saying anything about costs, a company has to make money after all, but simply profits. If the companies being called to account for their pricing aren't gouging the consumer then nothings going to change, and nothing should, but from someone who has to pay almost twice as much as you do for hardware and software I don't see why they have to pay so much when it all comes from the same sweatshop.

As for your bigotry or racism, I've never said you are intentionally racist, I never said that you hate Australia, nor do I care if you do. The comments you particularly made at the beginning were still racist whether you meant to be or not. I don't say that all Americans are war-mongering, murdering, gun-nuts who won't stop fighting until everyone bows down before the good 'ol US of A, so suggesting that Australia is a backwards country where we're resisting technology and the American way of doing things is not going to be anything other then offensive.

Little Gray:
Why dont you try reading what I write before you reply.

Yeah someone else suggested that, you may have noticed it if you read more of the thread, my response is actually 5 above yours, here it is again though.

I did read your post... and in my understanding it pretty much says that because Australians make more then Americans (on average) we should be chaged more... and I quote

The reason you pay more for goods in Australia is because you make more. Its as simple at that.

So because I make more money (read: am richer) I should be charged more?

As far as NZ being charged more I'm pretty sure the minimum wage in NZ in alot higher then the US minimum wage, so although the NZ dollar is weaker you're still making more money individually then Americans, which was the reason given for people being charged more. That being said if the minimum wage in NZ isn't that much higher then I have no idea what justification they use to rip you off unless they just think you're as rich as Australia without doiong any research just like Therumancer has been.

If you disagree with what I've said I would be interested to know why, as opposed to just implying that I'm completely wrong.

Little Gray:
I will start by saying I call bullshit on that three cents part. Its a random number that somebody pulled out of their ass with no proof.

The perhaps you should ask the person who posted it instead of coming off as a jerk to everyone else and skipping over posts. I had already claimed to know nothing about it.

MagunBFP:

triorph:

MagunBFP:

So because I'm Australian that makes it alright to charge me more? Just because I'm richer then you? So if a guy walks into a store looking like a bum and buys a cheeseburger, then a guy in an expensive suit walks in and buys a cheeseburger it would be fine to double the price just because the suit has more money?

Did this guy even read what he was replying to? He goes and says this point about the wage in australia being higher as though we didn't think of it, even though the posts he was replying to not only said a) that we have heard this point, but more importantly b) that NZ has worse GDP than US and much worse than australia yet we're saddled with australian prices. Obviously there's more going on here than "they have more money so we'll charge them more."

I did read the post I was replying to... and in my understanding it pretty much says that because Australians make more then Americans (on average) we should be chaged more... and I quote

The reason you pay more for goods in Australia is because you make more. Its as simple at that.

So because I make more money (read: am richer) I should be charged more?

As far as NZ being charged more I'm pretty sure the minimum wage in NZ in alot higher then the US minimum wage, so although the NZ dollar is weaker you're still making more money individually the Americans, which was the reason given for people being charged more. That being said if the minimum wage in NZ isn't that much higher then I have no idea what justification they use to rip you off unless they just think you're as rich as Australia without doiong any research just like Therumancer has been.

Sorry mate. I was talking about the guy you were replying to. I'm completely on your side with this, although I'm very sure that our minimum wage compares pretty similarly to US (and our GDP is much much lower). We always get lumped with you guys. I doubt its lack of research and more that its just easier logistically to treat us the same, so I'm hopeful these inquiries will help us as much as it helps you.

Evil Smurf:

Aardvaarkman:

Evil Smurf:
that's why I use steam and eBay for games. Fuck spending $90 for a Wii game. I can buy two nice bottles of burboun for that, or 5/6 of a concert ticket

$45 for a decent bottle of bourbon? You obviously don't live in Australia. A good bottle of spirits is going to cost you at least $60. A great bottle of spirits is going to cost around $90 to $150+. The game will give you many more hours of entertainment, too.

Okay, what bottle do you buy then? and Where? I suggest buying at Dan Murphy's or BWS.

I'm not really a bourbon drinker - but I do shop at Dan Murphy's and 1st Choice Liquor. Last time I checked, a bottle of Maker's Mark is around $45, and that's a thoroughly middle-of-the-road mass-produced bourbon. And of the higher end stuff is going to be at least $60.

I prefer tequila myself, and you can't get a good tequila for under $100. It's similar with single-malt whiskeys. I guess it's a question of taste though, and I can't really argue that with someone whose drink of choice is bourbon. But anyway, just compare liquor prices in general with the US - what we pay $45 for is typically a $20 bottle in the US. If anything, the price discrepancy is far worse for liquor than it is for games. Even the cheapest vodkas here are in the $27-$30, and those are pretty damn ordinary - they would be around $8 in the US.

Aardvaarkman:
I'm not really a bourbon drinker - but I do shop at Dan Murphy's and 1st Choice Liquor. Last time I checked, a bottle of Maker's Mark is around $45, and that's a thoroughly middle-of-the-road mass-produced bourbon. And of the higher end stuff is going to be at least $60.

I prefer tequila myself, and you can't get a good tequila for under $100. It's similar with single-malt whiskeys. I guess it's a question of taste though, and I can't really argue that with someone whose drink of choice is bourbon. But anyway, just compare liquor prices in general with the US - what we pay $45 for is typically a $20 bottle in the US. If anything, the price discrepancy is far worse for liquor than it is for games. Even the cheapest vodkas here are in the $27-$30, and those are pretty damn ordinary - they would be around $8 in the US.

That's normally $40-$45

I can't stand Tequila though, I had too much at a party once. Never again.

Therumancer:

The media talking about global issues, wrong... Australian citizens and New Zealanders who say differantly... wrong too. All bad sources. Business news? Wrong, bad source.

If that's where you're getting all your information, then yes, they're wrong, therefore they're bad sources.

Therumancer:
The bottom line is this, I know people from Austalia and have discussed issues like this with them before. I doubt either of us could produce 5,000 people as a sampling on pretty much any subject, and as clever as such a thing might make you feel in the short term, think about how stupid that really sounds. At the end of the day your big problem is that the information I've gotten is not something that supports what YOU want to think on this subject right now.

Instead of all the blathering about Australians you supposedly know, how about addressing the facts?

When you were told that digital downloads are frequently more expensive that physical copies, you tried to claim that this was because the physical copies are counterfeit. This is INCORRECT. You seem to think that people are buying these from knock-off Asian market stalls or something. That's just so far from the truth, that it's not funny. As I already said, these are authentic products bought from large, multinational companies. You know, like Target and K-Mart. Those are companies you have in the US, right? I believe they are in fact headquartered in the USA.

Do you really believe that these companies are buying their console games from Asian bootleggers? That would be a pretty huge scandal, and those companies would be hit with massive fines if that were the case. Another company name you might recognise is E.B Games. We have them here, and their prices are typically $15-$20 (or more) above the prices at the big box retailers. Usually E.B Games' prices are about the same as a digital copy bought from the Playstation Store or Xbox Live. Yet, you claim the the price discrepancy has to do with the shipping of physical product or other delivery costs. If that's true, then why is the physical product I can buy at the shopping centre 5 minutes away, is significantly cheaper than the price I can buy it DIRECTLY FROM SONY, via digital download? Something that is $66 to $88 on a disc in a physical store is typically $90 to $120 for digital download. And there is NO LEGISLATION that mandates physical copies been cheaper than downloaded ones.

And make no mistake, the vast majority of game purchases are for console games (not PC). And the vast majority of console users do not bother with piracy. Australians buy these games in droves. If you go into any typical Australian teenager's home, you will almost definitely find a library of console game discs. Not counterfeit. Authentic copies their parents paid good money for. Piracy on the PC platform is a whole different issue, as is piracy of movies, music and TV shows. Console games are possibly the least-pirated media in this country. But the PC game market is pretty insignificant these days, so it's hardly worth counting.

So, we know prices don't have to be as insane as E.B Games or the online stores would have you believe. Because they are readily available much cheaper. We don't expect prices on parity with the US or other countries. We're happy to pay a modest premium because of the size of our market. We just don't want absolutely ridiculous gouging. The oddest thing is that Sony wasn't included in this investigation. In reality, Apple and Microsoft's pricing has gotten a lot more reasonable than it used to be, and there are much worse offenders out there.

Evil Smurf:

I can't stand Tequila though, I had too much at a party once. Never again.

Exactly. Very few Australians have had a good tequila in their lives. They typically buy the Jose Cuervo crap, and slam it down in shots. With a good tequila you take small sips and appreciate it like a fine whiskey. But good tequila barely exists in Australia, and when you can get it, expect to pay upwards of $100.

RicoADF:
I don't think you know what your talking about. people can buy games from the US or UK and ship them here cheaper, and that's for single items. Bulk shipments would cost less per item. its an artificial inflation, one that may be in breach of Australian laws. Secondly, you have no idea what your talking about regarding our internet, currently we have the NBN network rolling out which will have fibre connected to a majority of Australians, however regardless of that, charging MORE on steam for a game than the retail copy cannot be justified by that. Steam isn't our ISP, their just an online store, and discrimination pricing is immoral if not illegal.

Edit: After reading your above post its clear your not being a troll, just ignorant of the situation. Simply put, they charge such high prices because they can, its greed pure and simple. That's why the inquiry is in place, in Australia there are laws against price guaging, the gov has to investigate. Just a heads up, your first post came across as putting Australians and our country down in the first paragraph based on incorrect information. We don't have censorship and the government is updating the networks, sounds like your wow friends were complaining when in an annoyed mood, or don't know what their talking about.

Btw fun fact, the reason Australian net got this bad was that liberals decided to copy the US and privatise the networks, assuming that prices would drop with competition. instead they raise prices and neglect the network. Corporations only care about money and will charge an arm and a leg if they can. You hear Australians complain so much because were not the US and were use to getting a fair deal not ripped off. This the NBN starts, and it will finish. This isn't the first time they've had to do this.

... get out. Just get out.

OT: Sounds like a good move by the government... wow, I can't believe I just said that. What's the catch? How is this screwing over the middle class? There HAS to be a catch...

Aardvaarkman:

Therumancer:
The bottom line is this, I know people from Austalia and have discussed issues like this with them before. I doubt either of us could produce 5,000 people as a sampling on pretty much any subject, and as clever as such a thing might make you feel in the short term, think about how stupid that really sounds. At the end of the day your big problem is that the information I've gotten is not something that supports what YOU want to think on this subject right now.

Instead of all the blathering about Australians you supposedly know, how about addressing the facts?

.

See, there it goes again. An insult (blathering) for addressing a point (sources) people have complained about because you don't like it, combined with what amounts to 4 year old "nanananana I'm right, your wrong" since your by definition not engaging in a debate or discussion, merely trying to force a point of view that your convinced of. If I'm to accept that you believe you have all the facts, then why should I even bother talking to you when I disagree?

The bottom line comes down to this. I mention things like digital infrastructure affecting digital business, bootlegging, and other things and in some cases explain how it might work, and get endless crap for it. The bottom line is that my own hypothosis about the nuts and bolts of it was never paticularly relevent compared to businessmen who have flat out said things in articles about not wanting to run their digital businesses in Australia or finding it a pain in the butt because of the infrastructure. How the F@ck do I know what their reasons are. People scream "well the internet doesn't work that way", I provide a possible reason based on what other people have told me, people scream about that. Entirely missing the central point that it's not me your really argueing with, I'm just giving you the stated reasons, and given that so many businesses claim these things, and it's an ongoing problem, that maybe, just maybe, there are factors here you don't know, which is why there is a govermental inquiry to begin with. At the end of the day though while these businesses are greedy, they aren't generally the sort to try and exploit a market in the way being suggested. I've always acknowleged I could be wrong there, but simply started that I think when the discussions with the goverment happen there is a pretty damn good chance they are going to find there are a lot of valid reasons behind the way things are, because if these companies could cut their prices, and reach more people for market penetration they would.

There are also issues of feigned ignorance. Want me to spell that out for you.... let's take your entire arguement about bootlegging. You likely know better just by being on forums like this. While it was also hypothetical, consider that every point you raised about bootlegging is complete BS because of it wasn't there never would have been a problem. It's why we get shock exposes on it all the time.

At the end of the day what happens is that stores do not buy directly from the manufacturer, typically they do their business through distributors and middle men that buy the goods in bulk, and then sell a lot of differant products at once to the retailers. SOME retailers do deal directly with the manufacturers but that generally tends to be an exception rather than the rule.

The thing with Bootleggers is that they counterfeit goods, and also pretend to be the company in question when selling to a third party. What's more the middlemen oftentimes don't give a crap where their product comes from as long as they get paid and have plausible deniability. Given that internationally you have distributors selling to each other to transfer goods between regions, work out shipping, play games with taxes and tarrifs, etc... direct dealing with the manufacturer might not ever happen. You might say buy 500 iPhones from a warehouse that can make a profit by selling them to you, but not by selling them to retail in your area, but you might be able to make a profit by reselling them to retail.... all depending on the web of mazes and policies.

What's more there have even been articles (covered on The Escapist at one point even if I remember) about bootleggers going so far as to counterfeit entire stores. Basically creating an Apple store storefront, pretending they are Apple, and selling bootleg Apple products to customers.

With Apple in paticular there have been some pretty nasty fights with China because they went to China to do a lot of their manufacturing, China being China just took the patent and started running it's own factories, producing the same product. So Apple has it's factories, but a couple cities over there is another sweatshop producing the same product at a lower quality, stamping "Apple" on it and shipping it out. China basically stole huge amounts of proprietary Apple information when Apple went there and started bootlegging at the same time they manufactured for Apple.

The point here is that yes, your buying from a "legitimate retail store", and getting a "boxed product, right off the shelf, with all the company stickers", but guess what... that doesn't mean it's real.

Heck news magazines/TV programs have occasionally done episodes on it where for the purposes of sensationalism they would walk into one store or another that got caught, pull down a brand name product, open it up, say "this looks real, doesn't it" and then go on to explain it's actually a counterfiet and how it got there. While of course the store management insists they had no idea (which may or may not be true) and passes the buck up the chain to the distributor. Typically the news gets as far up the chain to pretty much show the chain going to China, or some third world South or Central American country (in the US) but for obvious reasons they can't follow it any further. Some stores try and make a big deal (especially after being caught) about all their products being genuine.... and really there would be no reason to specify "Genuine Brand Names" if there wasn't increasing suspicians that they weren't. It can actually sometimes be part of a pitch (if you look, or pay attention) that a store nowadays takes time to investigate who they are dealing with, or makes the claim to ONLY deal with the manufacturers directly (which is not always the case which is why it's pointed out). Of course even so a lot of what they say is a lie. At the end of the day a lot of regional managers and stuff know that if they get passable counterfeit products for half the price, most customers will never even suspect, and they can make twice the profit. How many people even remotely know how to tell if their "Sony" TV is really made by "Sony", or of their "i" product gets them online, lets them text, etc... or even care at the end of the day for that matter. It looks real, the code works (which could have been the result of a hacked keygen), beyond that how many people are looking at the product?

That's why I pointed out my copy of "Chinatown Wars"... this was a game that came in an authentic looking box, with all the proper markings. It's a perfect job except for one obvious screw up, and really these guys know their business so it's generally not going to be that obvious.

Australia (as has been pointed out here) is closer to China, manufacturing and bootlegging both happen in China. If your typical business is buying from a middleman/warehouse, or through a chain of them that go back to China, at the end of the day they really don't know what the hell they have, only what it looks like. As a result when businesses claim "bootlegging is part of the problem with doing business in Australia" it does seem plausible. When the goverment looks into it, it could be quite interesting if say Apple pulls out a list of huge numbers of Australian "i" devices registered with numbers that Apple knows it never actually created or manufactured. Does Australian have less enforcement or awareness of this? Well maybe.. if your genuinely ignorant of this, then it would go a long way to explaining the problem and why it might be a factor. Truthfully though I DO think your just argueing because your on forums like this one, which means your more interested in this kind of thing in general as a matter of course, especially when it applies to technology.

Oh and before the personal attacks roll in, I'm not saying "Aussies are too stupid to recognize the real thing" since people seem to be projecting heavily onto what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a global problem, these knockoffs fool just about everyone, and it's supposedly a bigger problem there than it is elsewhere, Australia being right there next to knockoff central. Argueing that it's cheaper to ship from China is a very double edged arguement, since your dealing with pretty much the ultimate robber economy. You have no idea what is actually in their warehouses, and they tend to be good at pretending to be the real manufacturers at times. The guy on the phone or visiting the warehouse or whatever just knows everything says "Apple" and looks and sounds legitimate. When your dealing with entire stores having been faked... I mean.. think about it. It's not like Apple for example has much motive to lie about it, ultimatly it comes down to demands that countries like the US stop it, largely because they WANT to be able to sell their products more cheaply in some markets and get genuine penetration by them, as opposed to having to compete with the goverment
approved (and yes, it is goverment approved, the occasional token crackdown for diplomatic reasons is pretty much meaningless... a dog and pony show) thieves in the next city over from their plant that claim to be them.

I'm sure you'll continue to want to fight with me, but I'm pretty much done with the thread (which I've said before). In the end we'll see what happens during this goverment inquiry, if we ever find out.

Therumancer:
Given that internationally you have distributors selling to each other to transfer goods between regions, work out shipping, play games with taxes and tarrifs, etc... direct dealing with the manufacturer might not ever happen. You might say buy 500 iPhones from a warehouse that can make a profit by selling them to you, but not by selling them to retail in your area, but you might be able to make a profit by reselling them to retail.... all depending on the web of mazes and policies..

Once again, you demonstrate your ignorance. Do you really believe iPhones being sold in Australia by major retailers are fakes? Apple doesn't use third-party distributors to sell iPhones here. They are sold to them by Apple's Australian division.

Same with the console games. If these retailers were selling fake Playstation games, do you really think Sony would allow them to continue selling PS3 consoles (or anything else made by Sony, for that matter)? You don't think Sony wouldn't notice that millions of counterfeit copies are being sold by retailers, and not showing up in sales figures?

Your argument is absurd, and you have no evidence for these companies selling counterfeit goods. If you did, as I said previously, it would be a major scandal and the news media would love to expose it. So... maybe you should get on to that. You seem to have no idea of how business operates in Australia. I'm not talking about some back-street store. I'm talking about MAJOR retail chains. You know, the ones with the huge shiny stores in shopping malls? If you're going to make ridiculous allegations, then give us some evidence!

Your "proximity to China" arguments are also ridiculous. You say that Australia is somehow "right next" China? That's complete BS. Look at a map. China is essentially the same distance away from the US as it is from Australia. For example, Sydney is only about 200km closer to Beijing than Los Angeles is. This is an insignificant difference, and the US has many more ships coming from China than we do. You seem to have a very odd conception of Australia, as if you think it's a backwoods nation overrun by Asian counterfeiters. Even if China was right next to us, do you think we don't have things like borders and laws?

You're clearly trolling. You don't get to write massive posts making outrageous allegations, and then say "I'm done with this thread" at your convenience when people point out the inaccuracies of what you are saying. Well, technically you can, but it reflects very poorly on you and shows weakness of character.

Aardvaarkman:

Your "proximity to China" arguments are also ridiculous. China is essentially the same distance away from the US as it is from Australia. For example, Sydney is only about 200km closer to Beijing than Los Angeles is. This is an insignificant difference, and the US has many more ships coming from China than we do. You seem to have a very odd conception of Australia, as if you think it's a backwoods nation overrun by Asian counterfeiters.

Two things... first off Sydney is one of the furthest Cities from China in Australia (Save Melbourne and Adelaide) while LA is one of the closest in the US. The second is that I introduced the distance arguement that Therumancer has decided to run with... although I find it amusing that he so happily uses it to point out that these big business counterfeiters ship so much here because its cheaper.... but has never actually modified his arguement that it would be cheaper to also ship the genuine items directly to Australia as well

Perhaps the minimum wage is the reason why the Australian games cost more.

Examine the correlation of the price of fast food in the continental US and compare the price of the same item in Australia with their respective wages. Perhaps an Australian can give us an idea of the price in Australian dollars of a Big Mac for instance.

Logically the retail lobby in Australia will be wiped out by the sale of digital games, so they would try to create artificial barriers to this. It may be buried in the regulatory organs for this price control.

Therumancer:
snip snip snipity snip... that was a long one

I'm going address your post in whatever order things come to me... you're really started to jump all over the place.

So... China, according to you it's a manufacturer. There are companies in China that make fake products, it's not like Apple goes to China and suddenly all the manufacturers in China have the designs. You are totally correct about the fake Apple stores in China selling fake equipment... but some smart cookie noticed there were no official Apple stores on the website and let Apple know.... I believe (see I can use unsubstantiated "fact"s as well) the once people weren't actually able to connect to iTune they might have noticed it was a fake.

Its remarkably obvious that you have no idea about how purchasing happens for businesses... I'll let you in on a secret the deal isn't sealed in one phone call. THere's the inital approach, and then any reputable business actually checks the potential supplier out, looks for complaints, praise, etc... and if someone goes to inspect a factory its not just the receptionist its that companies expert.

I'm not going to say bootlegging doesn't happen, but I am going to say that in a country that out-numbers us 10:1 there would numberically be more bootleggers in the US then in Australia, thus making it a bigger problem over there.

All I'm going to say about your digital infrastructure arguement is that you've just said its a problem because we don't have a US style system of consumer internet. You haven't actually said whats wrong with our infrastructure... or even why its the retailers problem?

Over the course of this thread you're gone from saying your sources are your Aussie and Kiwi guildies, to the news, to business articles, you have actually to name a single source to actually give yourself credibility, it might help.

Finally you argue that these business would all want to sell their products for as little as possible to get the greatest market penetration possible... one of the companies is Microsoft who is has penetrated probably close to 95% of the business market and a massive percentage of the consumer market, they already have significant market penetration. If that arguement isn't good enough for you then answer just this one question... Have there been companies that have had massive profit margins and still gotten an impressive market share? The answer in case you just skip over that is yes... one such example is Apple (another one of the companies Subpoenaed). The difference in price between the hardware they sell and similar spec equipment from other vendors is a good indicator of that and still people buy it "cause it just works*"

*actual functionality is subjective and in actual fact works just as well as any MS product

Jerram Fahey:

RicoADF:
I don't think you know what your talking about. people can buy games from the US or UK and ship them here cheaper, and that's for single items. Bulk shipments would cost less per item. its an artificial inflation, one that may be in breach of Australian laws. Secondly, you have no idea what your talking about regarding our internet, currently we have the NBN network rolling out which will have fibre connected to a majority of Australians, however regardless of that, charging MORE on steam for a game than the retail copy cannot be justified by that. Steam isn't our ISP, their just an online store, and discrimination pricing is immoral if not illegal.

Edit: After reading your above post its clear your not being a troll, just ignorant of the situation. Simply put, they charge such high prices because they can, its greed pure and simple. That's why the inquiry is in place, in Australia there are laws against price guaging, the gov has to investigate. Just a heads up, your first post came across as putting Australians and our country down in the first paragraph based on incorrect information. We don't have censorship and the government is updating the networks, sounds like your wow friends were complaining when in an annoyed mood, or don't know what their talking about.

Btw fun fact, the reason Australian net got this bad was that liberals decided to copy the US and privatise the networks, assuming that prices would drop with competition. instead they raise prices and neglect the network. Corporations only care about money and will charge an arm and a leg if they can. You hear Australians complain so much because were not the US and were use to getting a fair deal not ripped off. This the NBN starts, and it will finish. This isn't the first time they've had to do this.

... get out. Just get out.

OT: Sounds like a good move by the government... wow, I can't believe I just said that. What's the catch? How is this screwing over the middle class? There HAS to be a catch...

Err what? I ain't going anywhere. Be specific with issues or else others don't get the problem.

RicoADF:
Err what? I ain't going anywhere. Be specific with issues or else others don't get the problem.

You rustled his jimmies with your poor use of your/you're and their/there/they're.

Aardvaarkman:
snip

MagunBFP:
snip

EvilRoy:
snip

Shamanic Rhythm:
snip

If I could give you all a hug and a cookie apiece through the internet, I would.

Vuliev:

RicoADF:
Err what? I ain't going anywhere. Be specific with issues or else others don't get the problem.

You rustled his jimmies with your poor use of your/you're and their/there/they're.
.

Oh, sorry but smart phones have that tendency. Their auto correct really needs more work.

MagunBFP:
Two things... first off Sydney is one of the furthest Cities from China in Australia (Save Melbourne and Adelaide) while LA is one of the closest in the US.

Yeah, but most of the economic activity happens in Melbourne and Sydney. The population is heavily concentrated in the South-East. The North, and particularly North-West of Australia (the closest areas to China) are minimally populated. It doesn't make any sense to ship counterfeit discs there, and then cross deserts to get them to where the customers are.

I chose Los Angeles and Sydney because they are comparable as financial hubs. That's where the ships go. Of course, this is all moot, as Australia is surrounded by water, and not adjacent to China as Therumancer somehow believes. Of course, you already know that.

The second is that I introduced the distance arguement that Therumancer has decided to run with... although I find it amusing that he so happily uses it to point out that these big business counterfeiters ship so much here because its cheaper.... but has never actually modified his arguement that it would be cheaper to also ship the genuine items directly to Australia as well

Sorry, I missed that, possibly after collapsing in shock from the utter weirdness of his arguments.

One would think that if Australia was as rife with counterfeit physical goods from China as he seems to think, you'd expect that there would be at least one credible news report about it. After all, the Australian media loves that stuff. There are nightly "current affairs" shows on TV that love nothing better than to run stories about how ordinary Australians are being defrauded by businesses. Moms unknowingly paying good money for fake products is exactly the kind of thing they would run in a heartbeat. They'd probably even pay well for any informant who could testify to such a practice.

Aardvaarkman:

MagunBFP:

[quote]The second is that I introduced the distance arguement that Therumancer has decided to run with... although I find it amusing that he so happily uses it to point out that these big business counterfeiters ship so much here because its cheaper.... but has never actually modified his arguement that it would be cheaper to also ship the genuine items directly to Australia as well

Sorry, I missed that, possibly after collapsing in shock from the utter weirdness of his arguments.

One would think that if Australia was as rife with counterfeit physical goods from China as he seems to think, you'd expect that there would be at least one credible news report about it. After all, the Australian media loves that stuff. There are nightly "current affairs" shows on TV that love nothing better than to run stories about how ordinary Australians are being defrauded by businesses. Moms unknowingly paying good money for fake products is exactly the kind of thing they would run in a heartbeat. They'd probably even pay well for any informant who could testify to such a practice.

Well you'd also imagine that if Australia was such a paradise for bootleggers, pirates and counterfeiters that we wouldn't care about the markup on official stuff we'd just be getting it all cheap from Bootlegger Bobs because he can undercut everyone with all the "fell off the back of the truck" merch.

Instead we find ourselves in a position where we're getting charged more because who else are we going to get our MS Office, or our iPhones or photoshop from. They thought they had us over a barrel... and depending on how hard the government is going to crack down, they may have been mistaken

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