CliffyB: Microtransaction is Not a Dirty Word, EA is Not The Bad Guy

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CriticKitten:
So your proof that Dead Space 3 will eventually go Free-to-Play....is a completely different game in a completely different franchise?

It's not a "guess", it's a logical conclusion based on the facts. Dead Space 3 cost EA far too much money for them to release it as Free-to-Play. Keep in mind that they said it had to sell 5 million copies to be viable in the market.

The Old Republic MMO cost a hell of a lot more than Dead Space 3 to make and it went free to play in well under a year. And it has Dead Space 3 going F2P is not something you can predict, so its silly to even set the precedence that you've come to a logical conclusion based on "facts". Especially when your "facts" have no bearing on the next 5 or the next 10 years of Dead Space 3's life as a game. It JUST came out. You're asking an unanswerable question here. What's worse is you're trying to belittle their point because they can't tell you the future.

You want to know if Dead Space 3 is going to go F2P ask Nostradamus or Miss Cleo, because that's about as likely of a 100% sure answer as you're going to get.

Akalabeth:

But I'm sorry, this IS an evasion. Because you're trying to dispute what I'm saying, by opening up another line of reasoning but you're still NOT disputing what I'm saying.

In order to play Team Fortress 2 at launch, you had to pay full price. This is fact.

I'm not evading any more than you are trying to deliberately misinterpret the facts.

You're trying to say;

TF2 = $60
DS3 = $60

Therefore, TF2 = DS3

And that is simply not true.

While TF2 did cost $60, it came with four other games. So the real equation should look like this;

TF2 + four other games = $60
DS3 on it's own = $60

Therefore, TF2 =/= DS3

But you don't like that, so you call it an evasion. Until you include the rest of The Orange Box in your reasoning, you're deliberately twisting the facts to suit your agenda.

Akalabeth:

See that's evading the point. You're introducing a new point, which does not directly dispute the old point, yet you're claiming that it does even though your really talking about something entirely different.

Nope. I am disputing the original point. You said:

Akalabeth:

It was available for 60 bucks, full priced game.

Attempting to deliberately make it sound as though TF2 cost $60 on its own. How you can call a $60 box of five games "full price" boggles the mind.

Akalabeth:

It's about being specific. The same way you use blanket terms like "5 Games in Orange box" as if the 5 games are equal in value to Deadspace when two of them are old and four of them are not full games

The sum of the five games far exceeds the value of Dead Space 3, both in length of play time and in quality (awards/critical acclaim). Whether or not they are "old" (EP1 was one year old, HL2 was two) and that others are "not full games" does not change the fact that you have at least one "full game" by your own definition, one "MP-only" game and three "small games" (or whatever diminutive term you want to use for revolutionary titles like those) does not change the fact that they exist, and that their sum is greater than that of one "full game".

On top of that, you give no consideration to the fact that you could gift extra copies of HL2/EP1 to friends, if you already owned them.

Akalabeth:

And let's not forget the fact that those users, who were expecting a 20 dollar Episode 2 instead were required to buy a 60 dollar package with A - two games they already had B - two games they may or may not have cared about. The fact that the episodes were later released as a bundle doesn't change the fact that some people may have ended up paying for stuff they didn't want to. That's great value, right? Being forced to buy games you don't want.

I can agree that people who wanted only Episode 2 and didn't enjoy the other games got a bad deal.

But it still wasn't that bad. EP2 was six hours long, and the other games in The Orange Box were all exceptional titles. It's still a better deal than buying the latest Call of Duty game, for instance.

Plus they could have gifted or (eventually) traded those extra copies of HL2 and EP1 if they had them already. Something which I think you're forgetting.

Akalabeth:
Just like you're forced to install Steam with any game you buy in order to play it.

Sounds a lot like Origin, except for the fact that Steam's not shit.

AzrealMaximillion:

Rachmaninov:

I notice you're still avoiding their point.

When with DEAD SPACE THREE be F2P?

Not BF1942, that's always been free.

To my knowledge EA have never turned a game F2P, besides ones that started F2P and failing MMOs. Never have they made a game even remotely like DS3 F2P.

And TF2 didn't include MTs for the first three years, a key difference you're just glossing over.

He's not avoiding their point. This whole post is invalidated by the fact that Battlefield 1942 was a full priced retail game when it came out and went free 10 years later. You just said to your knowledge that EA has never turned a full priced game into a F2P game. Turns out you now have proof stating exactly that.

Oh, true. I forgot they used to sell BF1942. So I suppose there is precedence, although it's still not of quite the same nature as DS3.

AzrealMaximillion:

Also The Old Republic MMO went F2P after being full priced.

You saw the part, in the quote you quoted, where I said "besides failing MMOs" right?

Yes, SWTOR went F2P. All failing MMOs do, these days. It's the norm. And it's by no means evidence of wanting to follow in Valve's footsteps with TF2.

Rachmaninov:

Akalabeth:

But I'm sorry, this IS an evasion. Because you're trying to dispute what I'm saying, by opening up another line of reasoning but you're still NOT disputing what I'm saying.

In order to play Team Fortress 2 at launch, you had to pay full price. This is fact.

I'm not evading any more than you are trying to deliberately misinterpret the facts.

You're trying to say;

TF2 = $60
DS3 = $60

Therefore, TF2 = DS3

And that is simply not true.

Oh what, so someone bought TF2 for 12 dollars at launch? Right, no wait everyone paid FULL PRICE to play it.

And no DS3 is not equal to TF2, DS3 is a 60 dollar game, TF2 is a 20 dollar multiplayer game. Just like EA's Battlefield 1943 which is a 15 dollar XBL MP only game.

Rachmaninov:

But you don't like that, so you call it an evasion. Until you include the rest of The Orange Box in your reasoning, you're deliberately twisting the facts to suit your agenda.

Akalabeth:

It was available for 60 bucks, full priced game.

Attempting to deliberately make it sound as though TF2 cost $60 on its own. How you can call a $60 box of five games "full price" boggles the mind.

And what are you doing exactly?
I quote evidence, from Valve's own pricing model that the five games are not equal. And yet you still consistently lump them together. You also still consistently take for granted the fact that not everyone may want to play those games, and also that a lot of people may already own HL2 + E1.

And also you're trying to tell me that someone didn't pay full price because they got 0-4 extra games they didn't want. No they still paid full price.

Seriously, you can't dispute the facts so you twist logic to try and make things fit your ideas but I'm sorry they don't fit. No amount of rationalization will change the fact that TF2 was in a box that was full price at launch. And no amount of generalization will change the fact that even by Valve's own pricing model, Orange box for NEW BUYERS to the franchise has at most 2.3 games. And if you're not a new buyer and like most people already have HL2 and Ep1, then you're just getting the equivalent of 1 full game just like Deadspace 3, except unlike Dead space 3 that 1 full game in the orange box may be 1/3 or 2/3rds unwanted depending on your preferences because again, buying stuff you don't want.

Rachmaninov:

Sounds a lot like Origin, except for the fact that Steam's not shit.

Except again you conveniently ignore the fact that Origin just launched and that Steam at launch was equally shit so please, quit trying to manipulate the argument. I'm not fooled for a second.

I'll agree that microtransactions aren't an inherently bad thing, but the way EA has chosen to implement them so far leaves a lot to be desired. I feel like they see successful business models sprouting up, but completely miss the point of why these business models exist in the first place when they try to implement them. I don't necessarily belong to the "EA is evil" camp, but they definitely could have made better decisions in the last little bit.

Akalabeth:

Oh what, so someone bought TF2 for 12 dollars at launch? Right, no wait everyone paid FULL PRICE to play it.

Full price with FOUR FREE GAMES.

(DISCLAIMER: Three of the four free games only cost $20 to buy individually)

Akalabeth:

And no DS3 is not equal to TF2, DS3 is a 60 dollar game, TF2 is a 20 dollar multiplayer game. Just like EA's Battlefield 1943 which is a 15 dollar XBL MP only game.

Oh, I'm sorry, I clearly didn't make the equation quite wrong enough for your liking.

TF2 = $20
DS3 = $60

Therefore, DS3 > TF2?

Is that what you intend to say? Because, if it is, it's even more wrong than the first version I quoted you as saying.

If you're going to isolate TF2 as a "20 dollar multiplayer game" then the equation is (almost identical to how I wrote it the first time):

TF2 = $20
DS3 = $60

Therefore, TF2 =/= DS3.

Akalabeth:

I quote evidence, from Valve's own pricing model that the five games are not equal. And yet you still consistently lump them together.

Don't worry, as you can tell by the disclaimer above, I'll stop. I don't suppose you'll stop with the consistent "TF2 IS FULL PRICE ON ITS OWN!" implications, will you? Despite the fact I've proven it wrong, over and over?

Akalabeth:

You also still consistently take for granted the fact that not everyone may want to play those games, and also that a lot of people may already own HL2 + E1.

Here's me, doing exactly the opposite of what you just claimed I did:

Me:

I can agree that people who wanted only Episode 2 and didn't enjoy the other games got a bad deal.

But it still wasn't that bad. EP2 was six hours long, and the other games in The Orange Box were all exceptional titles. It's still a better deal than buying the latest Call of Duty game, for instance.

Plus they could have gifted or (eventually) traded those extra copies of HL2 and EP1 if they had them already. Something which I think you're forgetting.

Please pay more attention.

Akalabeth:

And also you're trying to tell me that someone didn't pay full price because they got 0-4 extra games they didn't want. No they still paid full price.

Paid full price, and got FOUR FREE GAMES.

(DISCLAIMER: Three of the four free games only cost $20 to buy individually)

Akalabeth:
No amount of rationalization will change the fact that TF2 was in a box that was full price at launch.

Full price, with FOUR FREE GAMES.

(DISCLAIMER: Three of the four free games only cost $20 to buy individually)

You're accusing me of trying to twist the truth, when in fact I'm presenting the truth. The Orange Box was five games (read the disclaimer) at $60. That's a bundle, not a "full priced game" like you're repeatedly trying to claim. A bundle.

It doesn't matter if you didn't like the free games, because they were free. If you divide them into their individual prices, you would get:

HL2 = $60
EP1 = $20
EP2 = $20
TF2 = $20
Portal = $20

Total = $140

So you either paid $60 and got $140's worth of game, or you paid $60 and got $80 worth of gifts to give or trade.

Akalabeth:
And if you're not a new buyer and like most people already have HL2 and Ep1, then you're just getting the equivalent of 1 full game just like Deadspace 3

Except you could gift of trade the games you didn't want. Meaning under those circumstances you just posed, where someone already owns HL2 and EP1 (I know I did) and bought The Orange Box, they got HL2 and EP1 to gift or trade. That's eighty dollars worth of gifts.

Akalabeth:

Rachmaninov:

Sounds a lot like Origin, except for the fact that Steam's not shit.

Except again you conveniently ignore the fact that Origin just launched and that Steam at launch was equally shit so please, quit trying to manipulate the argument. I'm not fooled for a second.

EA operated a DD service before Origin, and they had Steam as an example to learn from, so they've got no excuses.

And you're ragging on Steam, for being required to play Steam games, but not applying that same logic to Origin. Please, be less obviously biased.

AzrealMaximillion:
I never said that "Free Players" get no drops. I said that the drops for Free Players happen an extreeeeeeemly lower frequency of those who have bought items or bought the game previous to the F2P Update. Free players get next to no drops until they pay.

1. You're going to need to back that up with evidence, because I can't find anything to suggest that other than the usual people who have had trouble with the drop system (F2P and Premium).

2. You're extending the goal post if you think it's a problem that they only get free stuff instead of "more free stuff."

AzrealMaximillion:

You could play for hours as a free player and only get one drop in a day of playing TF2, while the "Premium" player has received 3-4 crates and a weapon. And getting weapons is a much more rare occurence even for "Premium" players. So the chances of getting a weapon are extremely low for free players. This I think we all know from playing the game ourselves and just seeing people talking about drops or the lack there of in the chat section.

And this is just untrue. F2P players actually have a higher chance of getting weapons because their drops do not include rarer items such as hats. Simply put, the system is randomized except for the variable on what items they can receive.

Rachmaninov:

You're accusing me of trying to twist the truth, when in fact I'm presenting the truth. The Orange Box was five games (read the disclaimer) at $60. That's a bundle, not a "full priced game" like you're repeatedly trying to claim. A bundle.

It doesn't matter if you didn't like the free games, because they were free. If you divide them into their individual prices, you would get:

HL2 = $60
EP1 = $20
EP2 = $20
TF2 = $20
Portal = $20

Total = $140

Presenting the truth? Hahaha. Man alive!
You just presented a THREE YEAR OLD GAME as being worth FULL PRICE in the bundle.

(And no, the fact that MT weren't introduced at launch isn't analogous because most people paid the launch price.)

Rachmaninov:

Akalabeth:

And no DS3 is not equal to TF2, DS3 is a 60 dollar game, TF2 is a 20 dollar multiplayer game. Just like EA's Battlefield 1943 which is a 15 dollar XBL MP only game.

Oh, I'm sorry, I clearly didn't make the equation quite wrong enough for your liking.

TF2 = $20
DS3 = $60

Therefore, DS3 > TF2?

Is that what you intend to say? Because, if it is, it's even more wrong than the first version I quoted you as saying.

If you're going to isolate TF2 as a "20 dollar multiplayer game" then the equation is (almost identical to how I wrote it the first time):

TF2 = $20
DS3 = $60

Therefore, TF2 =/= DS3.

Do you understand the difference between VALUE and price? Team Fortress 2 is a 20 dollar value game. It was sold at 60 dollars with other games people may or may not have wanted.

Here's a very simple logic:

Dead Space 3: 60 Dollars
Orange Box: 60 Dollars

Now you think that Orange Box has better value, therefore MT in TF2 are less heinous.

So now, in order for your logic to match up the following assumptions need to be made:

1. The person buying Orange box doesn't already own Half Life 2 and HL2 Episode 1 (and no, I don't care about gifting)
2. The person buying Orange box is not just buying it for Team Fortress 2

And #2 is a biggie. Because if the person ONLY wants to pay Team Fortress 2, then they're paying 60 dollars, for a 20 dollar game (ie being ripped off) and later they're being dinged for micro transactions.

A lot of people don't play both single player and multiplayer, they focus on one, so there's a large group of people who are not getting value for their dollar. As for how it breaks down:

1. The MP only people are being ripped off completely. (60 dollars for 20 of content)
2. The SP people are being slightly less ripped off (60 dollars for 40 dollars of content) if they've bought HL2+E1 and
3. If they haven't bought HL2+E1 then they're getting at or around normal amount of value (60 dollars spent for 40 dollars of new game, plus roughly 20-30 dollars of old game).

It's only if you love both SP and MP, and haven't bought HL2 and E1 that you get full value of about 90 dollars (which includes the decrease value of HL2 and E1)

Selling people stuff they already own isn't value. Especially when they cannot RESELL the original product because it's tied to their Steam account.

Selling people stuff they don't WANT isn't value either.

Akalabeth:
And your proof is what? Your opinion? Your theory?
So I'm supposed accept your opinion as fact? No sorry, I cannot do that. You know why? Because it's YOUR OPINION. Get it?

You do realize that you're trying to dismiss my opinion with *your* opinion right?

Just want to establish how ridiculous that is for the folks at home.

Before I respond to the rest of your post, have you got evidence that TF2 was ever sold, on its own, for $20?

Akalabeth:

Presenting the truth? Hahaha. Man alive!
You just presented a THREE YEAR OLD GAME as being worth FULL PRICE in the bundle.

Decrease the price if you want, the result is the same.

HL2 = $1 (because it's soooo old)
EP1 = $20
EP2 = $20
TF2 = $20
Portal = $20

Total = $81

Oh, look at that. It's still more than $60, even with HL2 only costing a dollar! Even if you knocked EP1 down to one dollar, it's still more than $60.

[sarcasm]What a difference your point made.[/sarcasm]

Akalabeth:

(And no, the fact that MT weren't introduced at launch isn't analogous because most people paid the launch price.)

Got evidence? Because, if you don't, read this:

Shouldn't be making claims about things when you have no idea what the reality is, we already discussed that.

Akalabeth:

Now you think that Orange Box has better value, therefore MT in TF2 are less heinous.

Not the only reason. Not even the biggest reason.

The biggest reasons TF2's MTs are less heinous are because;

It didn't have MTs until three years after its release.
It went F2P a year later.
All the while, Valve gave out DLC for it for free.

So, even if I humour you, and accept the possibility that DS3 might go F2P in a year's time (like hell it will) that still doesn't put them on equal terms, because DS3 shipped with MTs as well as Day One DLC. And you won't be getting any free DLC for it, either.

Akalabeth:

So now, in order for your logic to match up the following assumptions need to be made:

1. The person buying Orange box doesn't already own Half Life 2 and HL2 Episode 1 (and no, I don't care about gifting)

And the value doesn't care whether you personally care or not. Being given a copy of the game for gifting or trading is worth something to anyone so should not be so casually ignored.

Akalabeth:

And #2 is a biggie. Because if the person ONLY wants to pay Team Fortress 2, then they're paying 60 dollars, for a 20 dollar game (ie being ripped off) and later they're being dinged for micro transactions.

Now you're confusing price with value. TF2's value is entirely subjective. Some players would play it for longer, and enjoy it more than they'd enjoy DS3, which you make it as valuable or more, in their eyes. Others might play it and hate it. Critical acclaim suggests more of the former, than the latter, though.

If I buy a diamond, and then sell it for $1 it doesn't mean that diamond is worth $1. And if I buy a bag of horse manure and sell it for $1000 it doesn't mean it was worth $1000.

So there is no point debating subjective value. And whether or not TF2 is truly a "$20 dollar game" is subjective, despite Valve's pricing methods, because their choice of pricing would be based on a lot of factors other than just quality, and if Valve decided to sell a great game cheap, doesn't mean it's a bad game.

In fact, if you compare Metacritic scores between TF2 and DS3, TF2 scored 92/100 and DS3 only 79/100 (on the same platform).

Akalabeth:

A lot of people don't play both single player and multiplayer, they focus on one, so there's a large group of people who are not getting value for their dollar. As for how it breaks down:

1. The MP only people are being ripped off completely. (60 dollars for 20 of content)

A subjective $20 of content, plus four free games to gift or trade.

(DISCLAIMER: Three of the four free games only cost $20 to buy individually)

Akalabeth:

2. The SP people are being slightly less ripped off (60 dollars for 40 dollars of content) if they've bought HL2+E1

A subjective $40 of content, plus three free games to gift or trade.

(DISCLAIMER: Two of the three free games only cost $20 to buy individually)

Akalabeth:

3. If they haven't bought HL2+E1 then they're getting at or around normal amount of value (60 dollars spent for 40 dollars of new game, plus roughly 20-30 dollars of old game).

A subjective $40 plus a subjective $20-30, with a free copy of TF2 to gift or trade.

Akalabeth:

It's only if you love both SP and MP, and haven't bought HL2 and E1 that you get full value of about 90 dollars (which includes the decrease value of HL2 and E1)

Not true, since you can gift or trade whichever games you don't own, meaning you could always get the full value regardless of whether or not you owned other games, or did not want them.

Akalabeth:

Selling people stuff they already own isn't value. Especially when they cannot RESELL the original product because it's tied to their Steam account.

Selectively ignoring the part where I mention trading, I see. You actually can resell the original product through Steam, using the trading system. You'd just have to get your customer to send you money through PayPal or some such, while you sent the game over Steam... for instance, you could put the game on eBay.

Akalabeth:

Selling people stuff they don't WANT isn't value either.

I don't want another copy of BF3, but if DS3 had come with a free copy that I could gift to a friend, I'd be happy about that.

And if DS3 had been sold with a copy of BF3 that I could gift or trade, you might actually have a leg to stand on in your comparison between it and The Orange Box.

CriticKitten:

Akalabeth:
And your proof is what? Your opinion? Your theory?
So I'm supposed accept your opinion as fact? No sorry, I cannot do that. You know why? Because it's YOUR OPINION. Get it?

You do realize that you're trying to dismiss my opinion with *your* opinion right?

Just want to establish how ridiculous that is for the folks at home.

Let's re-cap shall we:
1. You ask me when Dead Space 3 will be free to play in an effort to prove a point
2. As the answer is obviously unknown, I declined to answer, full knowing your flawed line of argument
3. You present your real opinion, and effectively want to say it's fact and want me to agree.
4. I dismiss it as not fact and being nothing more than your opinion.
5. Now you're accusing me of saying my opinion is more valuable than yours?

No.
The answer is, there is no answer. You have a theory. I choose not to present a theory. Your theory is your theory, it's neither true nor provable and is essentially just your opinion and my opinion, is that your theory is an opinion, not a fact so I'm not going to agree with your opinion because you know what? My opinion is different.

Clear?

Probably not.
Either way, I'm interested in facts, not speculation and not manipulation of the facts.

The fact is Team Fortress 2 was only free to play four years after.
The fact is Team Fortress 2 is the only free to play Valve game. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Furthermore, another fact is that EA has a precedence for releasing free games.

So if this was 2007, and unlike EA, Valve had not released anything for free and someone asked you when TF2 was going to be free to play what would you say? You wouldn't have an answer.

So thank you for your theories. But you've said them four times already so unless you have some facts, respectfully, quit wasting your time.

Rachmaninov:

So there is no point debating subjective value. And whether or not TF2 is truly a "$20 dollar game" is subjective, despite Valve's pricing methods, because their choice of pricing would be based on a lot of factors other than just quality, and if Valve decided to sell a great game cheap, doesn't mean it's a bad game.

That's a funny thing to say because that's what the ENTIRETY of your argument hinges on. Subjective Value. Not retail value, you know, the retail value of 60 dollars that a player has to pay in order to play either TF2 or DS3. The fact that a person MAY or MAY NOT play the other games, and MAY or MAY NOT already own them doesn't change the fact they paid 60 dollars.

You've been arguing subjectively that the value of old games is the same as the value of new games, and then you argue that the value of old games is not the same as new games (when I bring up the C&C Bundle), then you argue that subjective X game is better because Y review says so, then you argue subjectively that X game is better because it has some free DLC 5 years after it's release date that's been paid for by Mann Co store, then you argue subjectively that DS3 deliberately cut content from the game to sell as DLC, but at the same time assume that TF2's free content was not likewise cut from the game, etcetera and so forth.

Subjective, double-standard talk that ignores the base value of guess what, 60 dollars to play a game.
If I see two movies for the same price, and one has a short in front of it, and one does not, I'm still paying the same cost to see the movie.

Right, I'm done. For reals.
Because this is obviously pointless.

Akalabeth:
-snip-

No.

You originally said, in your own words, that Dead Space 3 and Team Fortress 2 were "very similar" and thus comparable.

You don't get to whine and complain when someone points out how they obviously differ.

Akalabeth:
-snip-

No, you paid 60 dollars for a collection of five games. Not for one specific game.

This isn't that hard to understand. You're only choosing not to understand it because you're irrationally hating on Valve, to the point where you perceive everyone who disagrees with you as a "Valve fanboy". Which I'm really not.

Given your extremely rude and condescending responses to others, it's clear you have nothing of value to contribute here, so perhaps it's best for you to move along.

Like seriously people, you argue for 5 pages on the premise that Valve is better than EA because Team Fortress 2 despite having microtransactions is free to play and you ignore the fact that Portal ISN'T Free to play, it ISN'T bundle with four other games and it has MT?!

I mean, that's some special kind of crazy to get into an argument like that. I don't follow Valve, so I don't know, and I don't read the other posts that aren't responding to mine, but yeah . . you guys? Seriously? That sort of thing you've got to work at.

How can you be arguing this shit knowing FULL WELL that Portal 2 is FULL PRICED and has MT?

Let me guess "oh it's just cosmetic social stuff, not like, game-changing". Bullshit man.

One excuse after another. Wow. Just wow. And seriously that takes a special kind of crazy, like, cult style of crazy, and this is offensive and I'm on probation but hey if this is the sort of people I'm talking to, the people that will say you don't have a grasp on reality and yet omit CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY damning evidence, shit man, what a waste of time.

CriticKitten:

Akalabeth:
-snip-

No, you paid 60 dollars for a collection of five games. Not for one specific game.

This isn't that hard to understand. You're only choosing not to understand it because you're irrationally hating on Valve, to the point where you perceive everyone who disagrees with you as a "Valve fanboy". Which I'm really not.

What about PORTAL 2 boy? FULL PRICED GAME? Micro transactions?

Explain that shit to me.

When's PORTAL 2 gonna be free to play?!?!

Akalabeth:
What about PORTAL 2 boy? FULL PRICED GAME? Micro transactions?

Explain that shit to me.

When's PORTAL 2 gonna be free to play?!?!

Interesting, I don't recall claiming that Portal 2 and Team Fortress 2 are "very similar" games.

Would you mind providing me with a link to where I made that claim?

CriticKitten:

Akalabeth:
What about PORTAL 2 boy? FULL PRICED GAME? Micro transactions?

Explain that shit to me.

When's PORTAL 2 gonna be free to play?!?!

Interesting, I don't recall claiming that Portal 2 and Team Fortress 2 are "very similar" games.

Would you mind providing me with a link to where I made that claim?

Hahaha.
Jink and weave buddy. Jink and weave. EVADE EVADE!
Don't want your delusional bubble love of Valve to burst do you?

In case you didn't know, this a question about Valve being as bad as EA. So if you're just here to make stupid little points in some effort to prove something, then like, stay away. Because no one cares, least of all me.

CriticKitten:

Akalabeth:
What about PORTAL 2 boy? FULL PRICED GAME? Micro transactions?

Explain that shit to me.

When's PORTAL 2 gonna be free to play?!?!

Interesting, I don't recall claiming that Portal 2 and Team Fortress 2 are "very similar" games.

Would you mind providing me with a link to where I made that claim?

And by the wya, if you're going to quote me, then QUOTE ME

CriticKitten:

Akalabeth:

The world: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2007/06/15/half-life-2-orange-box-release-date-set

60 bucks on consoles. 50 on PC. Full priced game.

Orange box had three new things.
short 2-3 hour Portal
short 4-6 hour Half Life 2 Episode
Team Fortress Multiplayer

Deadspace 3 has what, 14-20 hour campaign? And multiplayer?

So what's the difference between two short SP games and multiplayer, and one long SP game and multiplayer? Not very much.

Since there's not very much difference between the two, would you mind telling me when Dead Space 3 plans to go Free-To-Play?

So Orange Box (which by the way is not free to play) and Dead Space 3 are similar. Not DS3 and TF2 are similar.

GET IT RIGHT.

Akalabeth:
That's a funny thing to say because that's what the ENTIRETY of your argument hinges on. Subjective Value. Not retail value, you know, the retail value of 60 dollars that a player has to pay in order to play either TF2 or DS3.

You'd know this wasn't the truth if you'd been paying attention.

Yes, I argue that TF2's subjective value is as great as DS3's on its own. And that is my opinion, and you are free to disagree with.

I also argue that The Orange Box's objective value is greater than that of DS3, because The Orange Box is five games (albeit that two are episodic, one is what you call a "tech demo" and one is MP-only; the other is still a full game) and Dead Space 3 is only one game.

Akalabeth:

The fact that a person MAY or MAY NOT play the other games, and MAY or MAY NOT already own them doesn't change the fact they paid 60 dollars.

And whether or not they play the other games, they could still resell them, or gift them, or trade them. That means you are still getting more for your money.

Akalabeth:

You've been arguing subjectively that the value of old games is the same as the value of new games...

Yes.

Akalabeth:
...and then you argue that the value of old games is not the same as new games (when I bring up the C&C Bundle)

No.

I pointed out your hypocrisy in saying that "old games don't count" before showing me a deal made up of comparatively ancient games.

Akalabeth:
then you argue that subjective X game is better because Y review says so, then you argue subjectively that X game is better because it has some free DLC 5 years after it's release date that's been paid for by Mann Co store

You were talking about subjective value, and I was showing you that the critics as a whole subjectively valued TF2 higher. And you have no answer to it, except to tell me that I was doing it? Good job.

And that bit about the Mann Co store proves you don't know anything about TF2. They made more than six major updates between release and the introduction of the Mann Co store, and added plenty of content in total with those, and other smaller updates and inclusions. All free, and all before the Mann Co store was introduced.

Please, research the subject before you make claims like that.

Akalabeth:

then you argue subjectively that DS3 deliberately cut content from the game to sell as DLC

The evidence: Eleven pieces of Day One, on the disk DLC, which were technically part of the game, but had to be unlocked.

TF2 did not do that.

Akalabeth:

Subjective, double-standard talk that ignores the base value of guess what, 60 dollars to play a game.

I'm not ignoring the price. You're ignoring the fact that only one of those comes with four free games.

Akalabeth:

If I see two movies for the same price, and one has a short in front of it, and one does not, I'm still paying the same cost to see the movie.

Because getting Half Life 2/Episode One/Episode Two/Portal while paying for TF2 is really comparable to paying for a movie, and getting a short...

Seriously, are you even reading what you're typing?

Akalabeth:

Because this is obviously pointless.

Since you are completely incapable of letting EA take any of the blame for anything, I think you might actually be right, on this one.

Akalabeth:

So instead you fall on the "oh 5 games so they're 12.50 each"

No, you paid 60 dollars to play Team Fortress 2

And then you fall on "Oh but TF2 has free content"

But no, you paid 60 dollars to play a game, and it has MT.

But TF2 DOES have free content. There is no "But no" about that. And it only had MT three years after it came out and one year before it went F2P.

Akalabeth:
Tell me how the retail PRICE differs. I don't give a shit about what's in the box. Assume a person is only playing TF2, because, you know that's the only game that's relevant to this discussion.

The retail price doesn't differ, except that with one game you get four others free. You can resell/gift/trade if you don't want them, and then deduct the resell/gift/trade value from the original price, which would make it LOWER THAN $60.

Akalabeth:

So tell me again, how Valve is different from EA? Why is it that in all these discussions, not one of you preachers of the church of Valve has even thought to mention that.

I've told you how Valve is different from EA, but I'll tell you again, since you evidently covered your eyes the first time:

Did Valve buy up and crush beloved development studios? No? EA did.
Did Valve make fifty-eight games about football? No? EA did.
Does Valve cram anti-consumer DRM, Day One DLC, microtransactions AND paid DLC into EVERY PRODUCT? No? EA does.
Did Valve's big-wigs have a discussion about charging players for individual bullets? No? EA's did.

Do EA support indie games? No? Valve does.
Do EA offer free DLC for some of their games? No? Valve does.
Do EA offer massive sales on hundreds of products simultaneously? No? Valve does.
Do EA support the modding community? No? Valve does.

Akalabeth:

Fucking hell, I am SOOOOOOO done with all of you and your Valve fanboy arguments.

You call us fanboys, except you are the only one here who is completely incapable of level-headed thought. You haven't proportioned a single bit of blame towards EA throughout this whole discussion, and you have tried to pour it all on Valve.

I've told you what I like about EA and what I don't like about Valve.

And what've you offered in return? Absolutely nothing.

Evidently, you are the fanboy here, not us.

Rachmaninov:

You call us fanboys, except you are the only one here who is completely incapable of level-headed thought. You haven't proportioned a single bit of blame towards EA throughout this whole discussion, and you have tried to pour it all on Valve.

I've told you what I like about EA and what I don't like about Valve.

And what've you offered in return? Absolutely nothing.

Evidently, you are the fanboy here, not us.

Dude you wrote that whole long post and not ONE mention of Portal 2? NOT ONE MENTION.

WOW. You didn't even fucking quote it.

Did it register in your mind? Or did you erase it?

Do you know how IRRATIONAL it is, to argue for 5 pages about the differences between TF2 and DS3 regarding microtransactions and completely not even mention the fact that Portal 2 is just as bad as Dead Space 3? Like, does that register? Do you comprehend how absurd that is?

WOW. JUST WOW. This place is like crazy town.

You're back on the ignore list.

Akalabeth:
Hahaha.
Jink and weave buddy. Jink and weave. EVADE EVADE!
Don't want your delusional bubble love of Valve to burst do you?

In case you didn't know, this a question about Valve being as bad as EA. So if you're just here to make stupid little points in some effort to prove something, then like, stay away. Because no one cares, least of all me.

It's not evasion.

You're asserting that I said something that I clearly did not say, in a desperate attempt to throw my own argument back at me.

Except that it fails, because I never made the claim you did.

And I love how you keep falling back on the "Valve fanboy" excuse when I've never expressed any particular love of Valve. It pretty much throws the last dredges of legitimacy right out of your arguments when you have to resort to the "fanboy" excuse this early in a debate.

Oh, and: clearly you do care, or you'd have ignored my initial post entirely. But the fact that you responded, and that you keep responding to my posts, indicates to me that my posts obviously bother you enough to merit your continued attention.

Akalabeth:

CriticKitten:

Akalabeth:
-snip-

No, you paid 60 dollars for a collection of five games. Not for one specific game.

This isn't that hard to understand. You're only choosing not to understand it because you're irrationally hating on Valve, to the point where you perceive everyone who disagrees with you as a "Valve fanboy". Which I'm really not.

What about PORTAL 2 boy? FULL PRICED GAME? Micro transactions?

Explain that shit to me.

When's PORTAL 2 gonna be free to play?!?!

You're the one evading.

You've found that a Valve game is full retail price and launched with MTs?

QUICK, DROP EVERYTHING ELSE AND POST OVER AND OVER ABOUT THAT! Never mind answering all the other shit. Let's pretend that shit doesn't exist, because you think you've got a chink in the armor here.

You don't.

Yes, Valve launched a full price retail game with MTs. Yes, that would be like EA launching a full price retail game with MTs.

But like I've been saying from the very start, MTs are Dead Space 3's most minor transgression.

Let me offer you a side by side comparison.

Portal 2
MTs at launch---Yes
Day One DLC-----No
Paid DLC--------No
Free DLC--------Yes

Dead Space 3
MTs at launch---Yes
Day One DLC-----Yes
Paid DLC--------Yes
Free DLC--------No

So go on, evade you way out of that. Go and dig through Valve's whole damn library, I can wait while you try to find another nugget to desperately cling to.

Akalabeth:

Rachmaninov:

You call us fanboys, except you are the only one here who is completely incapable of level-headed thought. You haven't proportioned a single bit of blame towards EA throughout this whole discussion, and you have tried to pour it all on Valve.

I've told you what I like about EA and what I don't like about Valve.

And what've you offered in return? Absolutely nothing.

Evidently, you are the fanboy here, not us.

Dude you wrote that whole long post and not ONE mention of Portal 2? NOT ONE MENTION.

WOW. You didn't even fucking quote it.

Did it register in your mind? Or did you erase it?

Do you know how IRRATIONAL it is, to argue for 5 pages about the differences between TF2 and DS3 regarding microtransactions and completely not even mention the fact that Portal 2 is just as bad as Dead Space 3? Like, does that register? Do you comprehend how absurd that is?

WOW. JUST WOW. This place is like crazy town.

You're back on the ignore list.

Oh, look who didn't have the patience to wait for me to post again, so he'd see I actually addressed, and in fact totally unwound his argument regarding Portal 2.

Guess if I'm on the ignore list, you'll never know how wrong you are?

And it's funny how you cherry picked that one missing piece, and didn't respond to any of my other arguments, because the fact was; you didn't have an answer.

I'm not crazy yet, but I think I might've gone crazy if I spent much longer trying to unwind the tangled spaghetti logic you had to resort to, to turn literally every spot of blame away from your beloved EA.

You know what's also irrational?

Trying to argue there's a difference between day 1 DLC and day 1 MTs like the portal 2 store, which is essentially cosmetic DLC at MT prices.

Akalabeth:
You know what's also irrational?

Trying to argue there's a difference between day 1 DLC and day 1 MTs like the portal 2 store, which is essentially cosmetic DLC at MT prices.

Off-topic; You know what's also irrational? Pretending you put someone on your ignore list, and then proving you didn't.

On-topic; I see the similarities, as it happens. So I agree, DS3's Day One DLC and Portal 2's MTs are very similar.

Portal 2 still has free DLC, though. Which still puts it ahead.

Joby Baumann:
Ahem,

Boner boner boner, boner boner. Boner boner $60, boner boner boner $20. Boner boner cost vs value, boner. Boner boner boner boner boner. Boner 5 games boner boner boner one game boner 4 free games boner. Unwanted boner. Boner boner boner. Boner. Boner boner boner boner boner. Microtransactions boner. Boner EA, boner Valve.

In conclusion: boner.

Yeah, or you could contribute. That'd be cool, too.

You're on my ignore list buddy. So is Rogue09. So is CritterKitten. So is someone from way back called Saintwaldo. You want a screenshot?

But there's a little option that say "click to show post". Notice how I didn't quote you?

So nice try. But, failed again. And calling me a liar to boot.

Regardless. This conversation has hi-lighted what an utter and complete waste of time it is to debate with people on these forums when you've got one side of the debate ignoring such completely damning evidence to their case. So I'll restrict my comments to FB threads only.

And for the last time, I don't give a shit about EA. I have five of their games, the newest being Dead Space 1 (not counting BF3 which I played for 3 hours and traded in) and the only one I'd play again being Mirror's Edge. If I'm a fan of anyone, again it's Ninja Theory, Eidos Montreal and Bethesda.

Akalabeth:
You're on my ignore list buddy. So is Rogue09. So is CritterKitten. So is someone from way back called Saintwaldo. You want a screenshot?

But there's a little option that say "click to show post". Notice how I didn't quote you?

So nice try. But, failed again. And calling me a liar to boot.

Oh, my bad. I've never felt the need to put anyone on my ignore list, so I had no idea it worked like that.

Akalabeth:

Regardless. This conversation has hi-lighted what an utter and complete waste of time it is to debate with people on these forums when you've got one side of the debate ignoring such completely damning evidence to their case.

No one ignored it, I responded and it wasn't damning. But you're just going to keep posting posts full of hostility, despite the fact that I actually part-way agreed with you in my last post, eh? Going to keep accusing me of ignoring evidence when I answered everything, yeah? And when I've got loads of arguments you never responded to, even on this one page alone?

Be like that, then.

Akalabeth:

And for the last time, I don't give a shit about EA. I have five of their games, the newest being Dead Space 1 (not counting BF3 which I played for 3 hours and traded in) and the only one I'd play again being Mirror's Edge. If I'm a fan of anyone, again it's Ninja Theory, Eidos Montreal and Bethesda.

Whether or not you play EA games, you just spent pages and pages of typing trying to deflect absolutely 100% of the blame away from EA in every situation, so it's pretty evident you do in fact "give a shit about EA", and that you in fact, give a lot of a shit.

Akalabeth:
You're on my ignore list buddy. So is Rogue09. So is CritterKitten. So is someone from way back called Saintwaldo. You want a screenshot?

Can't provide a valid answer to a legitimate counterargument? Put the person on ignore!

Always a good decision that illustrates one's maturity.

It's clear you're not here to contribute, so please, go find another thread to post in. This one isn't for you.

Akalabeth:
You're on my ignore list buddy. So is Rogue09. So is CritterKitten. So is someone from way back called Saintwaldo. You want a screenshot?

But there's a little option that say "click to show post". Notice how I didn't quote you?

So nice try. But, failed again. And calling me a liar to boot.

Regardless. This conversation has hi-lighted what an utter and complete waste of time it is to debate with people on these forums when you've got one side of the debate ignoring such completely damning evidence to their case. So I'll restrict my comments to FB threads only.

And for the last time, I don't give a shit about EA. I have five of their games, the newest being Dead Space 1 (not counting BF3 which I played for 3 hours and traded in) and the only one I'd play again being Mirror's Edge. If I'm a fan of anyone, again it's Ninja Theory, Eidos Montreal and Bethesda.

Dude, let me put this in perspective.

You are trying to argue that Dead Space 3's microtransactions in a single player focused, action horror game, which include weapons and story content are the same thing as Team Fortress 2's and Portal 2's purely cosmetic DLC and microtransactions. Players who don't get the valve stuff only miss out on some stupid hats, while people who don't get EA's stuff miss out on weapons, missions, and content that actually has an impact on gameplay.

Honestly, I am 99% certain that you are either trolling, or possess a severe mental deficiency, as next to your ramblings cost vs value boner seems entirely rational.

The amount of butthurt in this thread is hilarious.

OT: He raises a good point, even if EA deserves the hatred. This generation of gamers is the most spoiled generation yet. We expect so much from new games, yet we aren't willing to pay for quality, we just want the cheapest games. If that means torrenting it, so be it. If it means buying used, why not? All the people raising the "TF2 is F2P" argument seem to forget that it wasn't originally Free. I paid for it, and I'm pissed that those fuckers at Valve are allowing people to just straight up buy better stuff. That's one of the reasons I stopped playing the game. People also complain about DLC being $15 for an extra two-three hours of content. Have you seen the price of weapons in the Mann Co store? I re-installed the game to fuck around with some friends, and for fun I looked at the price. Some of those weapons are running close to $10... I mean, really? How is THAT not Knickel and Diming the players? People expect that these extra things people are making for games (DLC) should be free. That's essentially the equivalent of buying a car and expecting the gas to come with it.

bl4ckh4wk64:
People expect that these extra things people are making for games (DLC) should be free. That's essentially the equivalent of buying a car and expecting the gas to come with it.

Umm I'm not sure where you buy your cars but mine came with gas... kinda hard to drive off the lot without it you know.

bl4ckh4wk64:
All the people raising the "TF2 is F2P" argument seem to forget that it wasn't originally Free.

Neither did it originally have the Mann Co store. But I've said this plenty of times over already, and I'm guessing you'll have read me saying it at least once.

But CliffyB even bringing TF2 into this is complete nonsense, because the microtransactions shitstorm is aimed at Dead Space 3 and EA. Both of which have a lot more going wrong than just this.

EA embrace every money-grubbing tactic they can see, and microtransactions are only the latest of these.

And Dead Space 3 is a perverse twisting of a successful niche game, in an attempt to make it appeal to broader audiences, by the way of more action, explosions and a more generic plot. It has microtransactions shoehorned in, to go along with Day One, on the disk DLC and likely full price paid DLC down the line. Not to mention a budget so bloated there it has absolutely no hope of even breaking even, since EA publicly dangled the guillotine over the franchise, telling us it needed five million units sold, to be viable. (I'd like to mention here, that I do own the game, and have played it to the end, and enjoyed it for what it is)

Microtransactions are just one little gripe which is getting a lot of attention. CliffyB wants to pretend this is all about microtransactions, but it isn't, at all.

bl4ckh4wk64:

I paid for it, and I'm pissed that those fuckers at Valve are allowing people to just straight up buy better stuff.

The microtransactions options offered by Valve are similar to those in Dead Space 3, in that they offer convenience.

Those people buying better stuff aren't getting something you can't get, they're just getting it sooner. In the same way that if you pay for resources on Dead Space 3, you can be more powerful there.

bl4ckh4wk64:

That's one of the reasons I stopped playing the game. People also complain about DLC being $15 for an extra two-three hours of content. Have you seen the price of weapons in the Mann Co store? I re-installed the game to fuck around with some friends, and for fun I looked at the price. Some of those weapons are running close to $10... I mean, really? How is THAT not Knickel and Diming the players? People expect that these extra things people are making for games (DLC) should be free. That's essentially the equivalent of buying a car and expecting the gas to come with it.

The DLC made for TF2 was all free. The DLC made for Portal 2 was all free. I believe Valve gave some DLC for free to L4D, too, in apology for making L4D2 too soon.

Free DLC isn't such an unrealistic expectation.

But in response to your comment about the DLC price, I actually think it's more like $20-25 rather than $15, for full priced DLC these days.

And in response to the weapons being as much as $10, that is not so unreasonable by comparison to other microtransaction systems. Dead Space 3, for instance, sells you a pack of in-game resources at $3 a time, and does not carry over those resources into any other mode besides "New Game Plus" meaning that any resources you buy are really only useful to one for one playthrough, if that, which is 17 hours (or was for me, taking it slow).

I know I could put in more than 17 hours into TF2, making use of a $10 gun. If you wanted to buy it, chances are it's the gun you'd use for a hundred hours, let alone seventeen.

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