Ubisoft Says Complex Gameplay "Holds Back" Splinter Cell

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 NEXT
 

MrHide-Patten:
Whilst I'm not a fan of the series, isn't this the train of thought that plagues games like Deus Ex Human: Revolution, Dishonored and Metal Gear Rising. Why should I go the hard way when it is easier to just go mental with rocket launchers?

It makes Mark of the Ninja look like a real oddity now days, a stealth game where when you are spotted, you're fucked.

Playing Deus Ex: Human Revolution on "Give Me Deus Ex" basically forces you into stealth (and admittedly subsequently hamstrings you on the boss-fights) because you die extremely quickly. And Metal Gear Rising, while having the Metal Gear name, isn't a stealth game. It's got light stealth elements in parts, sure, but the AI is dumb as a box of rocks.

OT: So long as they keep in the harder difficulties that don't do anything for you, I don't see what the big issue should be. It's basically just an extended easy mode, so long as it's optional.

Chaos Marine:
Awwww. Is making good games too hard Ubisoft? Awwww. Poor baby.

Making good games isn't, making games is.

MrHide-Patten:
Whilst I'm not a fan of the series, isn't this the train of thought that plagues games like Deus Ex Human: Revolution, Dishonored and Metal Gear Rising. Why should I go the hard way when it is easier to just go mental with rocket launchers?

It makes Mark of the Ninja look like a real oddity now days, a stealth game where when you are spotted, you're fucked.

Dues Ex: Human Revolution definitely suffers from it, Dishonoured suffers from this too, but much less, blink, for example, should have needed more mana. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (still a better title than "Warface") is an action game (although it was originally meant to be an attempt to blend a melee combat system with MGS style stealth, which is one of the reasons it has stealth in it, but the focus is on action), combat is also more like Ninja Gaiden than CoD.

This is why we cant have nice things.

"You can climb up, do 3D navigation and jump over things without thinking too much or pressing buttons," Raytmond said. "Sam does it automatically. The Killing in Motion, being able to Mark and Execute while moving through the map, makes it much more accessible to more of an action gamer."

oh god no, thats just so bad! how is it an action game if it requires no action?

i just.. i dont know what to think anymore, just keep buying Dark Souls and Xcom and hope for the best i guess

...

Dear Ubisoft,

Making hardcore stealth games is easier than you would think. You should make Splinter Cell a stealth game, then give the player weapons. Players can make their own difficulty in stealth games. While I do love your three variations of 'Action', 'Stealth', and 'Stealth Action', you need to understand that players can make their own difficulty.

Think about the Thief games. Players can challenge themselves with killing or not killing. Collecting Everything or just going mission objectives only. For stealth games, let the player mold the playstyle to what they want.

Doom972:
It sounds like the game is going to play itself.

Fappy:
The Splinter Cell games haven't been good since Chaos Theory. I didn't think anything would have changed with this new title.

I feel the same way. Double Agent had a nice concept, but a very poor and buggy execution, and I didn't even bother with Conviction because they over-simplified it.

I'm guessing you played Double Agent for PS3/360/PC. If that's the case, I recommend you look into Double Agent for PS2 or the original Xbox. It was made by the same team that did Chaos Theory, where as the Shanghai team did the newer gen one. If you have a friend to play coop with, you get about 15 missions (actual Chaos Theory style story missions, rather than the versus training missions you get from the newer version).

So splinter cell bad, but dishonored very very good? It seems to me, that splinter cell doesn't need to be dumber, just throw in blink and devouring swarm. :-D No I'm kidding, what it needs is atmosphere :-), I mean, what is rewarding about easy stealth?

Tohron:
Someone clearly needs to watch the latest Jimquisition...

I just quote this. Everybody has to read this article & watch the Jimquisition.

I don't even know what to say anymore. Maybe those things are the main reason i basically buy no games anymore. I just noticed a few weeks ago, that i'm recycling the same games since nearly 10 years (+ pickin' the good ones like Portal out).
I'm glad there are games like DotA/LoL so i'm not influenced by the whole gaming-mess we currently have.

MrHide-Patten:
Whilst I'm not a fan of the series, isn't this the train of thought that plagues games like Deus Ex Human: Revolution, Dishonored and Metal Gear Rising.

Well the Deus Ex series was always about choosing your own play style so I don't see how DE:HR is same as what's going on with SC:BL. As for Metal Gear Rising...stealth has nothing to do with Rising, because its a hack n' slash game. Plus the game was just a chance for Kojima productions to try something new with the Metal Gear franchise, but its not like Rising's gameplay is going to be the standard for future Metal Gear games. Never played Dishonored so I can't comment.

MrHide-Patten:
Why should I go the hard way when it is easier to just go mental with rocket launchers?

Because for some people its not about which choice is the easiest. Some people like a challenge even if it isn't forced upon them.

Anyway, this news is disheartening to say the least. I actually enjoyed Conviction even though I thought it wasn't as good as SC 1-3, but it looks like BL is gonna further dilute the gameplay. I'll probably rent it, but I'm sure as hell not gonna buy it.

Its horrible but if they give the game different modes that lock out the help from the start they maybe it wont be totally horrible, still though i'm with Yahtzee, stealth isnt all about killing...

And to top it all off they even got rid of the classic camera detection alarm sound from the old games, Madness

They have basically said they want the gameplay to be simpler so that people won't have to put as much thought or effort in to be good at it. Apparently, you can play the difficult way if you like, but if you don't want to that's fine, you won't be punished for screwing up. I am not an elitist dick when I fear it happening to a series I like, especially when that series' appeal hinges partly on its demanding gameplay, and fans of a series shouldn't have to maintain the experience themselves by limiting their own options while the game caters to other demographics.

Kathinka:
gif is relevant!

image

and as usual when something bad happens in gaming, i blame consoles. <.<

Aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnddddddddd..... onto the ignore list you go.

All you guys fellating Chaos Theory, when is the last time you actually played it?

It hasn't aged very well.

Acton Hank:

Kathinka:
gif is relevant!

image

and as usual when something bad happens in gaming, i blame consoles. <.<

Aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnddddddddd..... onto the ignore list you go.

All you guys fellating Chaos Theory, when is the last time you actually played it?

It hasn't aged very well.

don't be so touchy, bro ;)

i'm currently playing chaos theory coop with a friend, and i'm actually amazed how good games once were..i don't care much for graphics, but the mechanics and complexity alone are what does it for me. hell, anything that isn't a corridor-shooter nowadays deserves at least an acknowledging nod..

zelda2fanboy:
April Fools! *Checks date.* Oh. Didn't Conviction sell way less than other Splinter Cell games for precisely this reason? I could be wrong, but it seems like they don't really agree with why I ever liked this series to begin with. It's kind of like what happened with Assassin's Creed. Oh well. I can always go back and play the old games. I haven't bought one of these since Pandora Tomorrow anyways, when it seemed like they got all multiplayer centric.

I don't understand why people seem to think that Conviction failed commercially.
As far as I know Conviction sold 2 million, just under Chaos Theory.

If anyone wishes to correct me with their own sources please do.

Dr. McD:

Chaos Marine:
Awwww. Is making good games too hard Ubisoft? Awwww. Poor baby.

Making good games isn't, making games is.

MrHide-Patten:
Whilst I'm not a fan of the series, isn't this the train of thought that plagues games like Deus Ex Human: Revolution, Dishonored and Metal Gear Rising. Why should I go the hard way when it is easier to just go mental with rocket launchers?

It makes Mark of the Ninja look like a real oddity now days, a stealth game where when you are spotted, you're fucked.

Dues Ex: Human Revolution definitely suffers from it, Dishonoured suffers from this too, but much less, blink, for example, should have needed more mana. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (still a better title than "Warface") is an action game (although it was originally meant to be an attempt to blend a melee combat system with MGS style stealth, which is one of the reasons it has stealth in it, but the focus is on action), combat is also more like Ninja Gaiden than CoD.

Because Human Revolution and Dishonored make it more satisfying and rewarding when you take the stealth route.
Hitman is also a stealth game that did this kind of thing pretty well.
If you force stealth down a game's throat with no alternative other than a game over screen, then a game often becomes a tedious exercise in trial and error.

Acton Hank:
[quote="Kathinka" post="7.406467.16919114"]gif is relevant!

image

and as usual when something bad happens in gaming, i blame consoles. <.<

They actually did a stealth play through however it doesn't seem to be the main focus, just there to please us.

funksobeefy:
"You can climb up, do 3D navigation and jump over things without thinking too much or pressing buttons," Raytmond said. "Sam does it automatically. The Killing in Motion, being able to Mark and Execute while moving through the map, makes it much more accessible to more of an action gamer."

oh god no, thats just so bad! how is it an action game if it requires no action?

Yeah, the really weird thing is that that statement doesn't even make sense. Surely an action gamer, of all people, would want to be doing the aiming themselves? If an action gamer isn't keen on doing the shooting for themselves then what makes them an action gamer?

Oh, what's that, Ubisoft? I couldn't hear you clearly because I was replaying Pandora Tomorrow, and I think I'll sneak in a little Chaos Theory sometime later. Oh, you think the games were too complex...Uh, OK then, I guess I'll just have to figure out how my mind ever managed to wrap around this overly complex game with a, what was it, two minute learning curve. In the meantime, I'll continue playing these games while I ignore Blacklist, and you can release Blacklist to the fans you apparently think are stupid. You see, everyone is happy!

Joking aside, this is one reason why I have a massive aversion to Ubisoft games. It isn't because they don't make fun games, it's because they seem to categorize their audience in two ways: the pirates and the idiots. EA might have bad business practices and PR, but they really don't go out of their way to openly insult their fans. Ubisoft just doesn't seem to care, but at least I can appreciate their honesty.

You know what's one thing I liked about Chaos Theory?

That game let you 'go loud' and let you bring a shotgun attachment, or a high-powered sniper rifle and a whole bunch of grenades and bullets if you wanted to. You could go through a level shooting everyone to death with a shotgun if you wanted to.

But... it still felt like being a Splinter Cell. You still had to be smart about attacking others with loud weapons, due to the fact that you could just as easily be killed.

In other words, you couldn't do shit like this.

Kathinka:
gif is relevant!

*gif snip*

If you tried charging around like that while getting shot at by guards, you'd be fucking dead. I mean, just look at that. Sam breaking down doors whilst sprinting full speed, bullets flying everywhere, windows and shit breaking left and right. What the fuck is this?

Andy Chalk:
the default mode will provide a more "fluid, modern play-style" that won't demand nearly as much from players.

"You can climb up, do 3D navigation and jump over things without thinking too much or pressing buttons," Raytmond said. "Sam does it automatically. The Killing in Motion, being able to Mark and Execute while moving through the map, makes it much more accessible to more of an action gamer."

"modern play-style that won't demand nearly as much from players."
"without thinking too much or pressing buttons" (oh god)
"more accessible to more of an action gamer."

And that's my problem with this game. To see it lose it's identity for the sake of broader-appeal, for it to go the way of Dead Space.

This game is trying to reach out to a different audience, and I'm not a part of that audience.

Before everyone gets mad about the continuing dumbification of videogames, remember that nobody is being forced to play in a "modern" style, it's just an option for newcomers to the franchise who'd rather shoot dudes than dance around them. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, as long as Ubi can pull it off without compromising the elements that originally made Splinter Cell great.

If other dudes don't want to 'dance around' guards, then they can play any other game. I don't barge into genres and long-running franchises I'm a stranger to and demand it cater to my inexperience. As far as I'm concerned, everything that made Splinter Cell great to me is already gone.

I cannot possibly be any less interested in this game. Shame too, because there was a time when I could call this franchise one of my favorites. Oh well.

1337mokro:

BECAUSE GAMERS ARE MORONS! It worked so well for Dragon Age 2, a game that sold such incredible numbers that they cancelled the DLC for it because no store on earth actually wanted to sell it... Yeahhhh...

Huh? What canceled DLC?

On March 2011, I got my pre-ordered signature edition with "The Exiled Prince" DLC included.

Then on the 26th of July, 2011, they released the "Legacy" DLC and I bought it.

And finally on the 11th of October, 2011, they released the "Mark of the Assassin" DLC which introduced a new useable party member, Tallis, a redheaded elf rogue voiced by Felicia Day, and I also bought it.

I played all of it and loved it. As far as I remember, Mark of the Assassin was on purpose going to be the last DLC, because they were then going to work on DA3.

Andy Chalk:

"You can climb up, do 3D navigation and jump over things without thinking too much or pressing buttons," Raytmond said. "Sam does it automatically. The Killing in Motion, being able to Mark and Execute while moving through the map, makes it much more accessible to more of an action gamer."

As much as I normally like your games Ubisoft, I did not like the whole, "one button does 50 things" that you've begun introducing. I honestly did not mind having to hold 2 buttons to run and climb in Assassin's Creed 1, 2, Brotherhood and Revelations, if anything it made navigation easier as I knew I would only jump if I clicked the button. This is streamlining at it's worst, not best (in my opinion), and personally I get bored much more quickly when I'm clicking/holding one button.

Look at what you're saying Raymond, "You can climb up, do 3D navigation and jump over things without thinking too much or pressing buttons" and now look at Fable 3. That game was considered to be quite poor as it was over simplified to the point where in which you couldn't even choose what interaction you would do with random folk, only whether it would be good or bad.

People who play games have brains too, don't be scared to try and get them to use it.

I don't mind dumbification, as long as there's an option to play the game in default mode. You know, somewhat like they did in Mass Effect 3 with Action and Story modes. That way I can completely ignore it. I also don't agree with there being no demand or market for hardcore stealth games. People are really interested in Thief 4 for example, and if they can bring back that old gameplay style they'll just take profits aways from Ubisoft, which in long term may not be that bad.

Sonic Doctor:

1337mokro:

BECAUSE GAMERS ARE MORONS! It worked so well for Dragon Age 2, a game that sold such incredible numbers that they cancelled the DLC for it because no store on earth actually wanted to sell it... Yeahhhh...

Huh? What canceled DLC?

On March 2011, I got my pre-ordered signature edition with "The Exiled Prince" DLC included.

Then on the 26th of July, 2011, they released the "Legacy" DLC and I bought it.

And finally on the 11th of October, 2011, they released the "Mark of the Assassin" DLC which introduced a new useable party member, Tallis, a redheaded elf rogue voiced by Felicia Day, and I also bought it.

I played all of it and loved it. As far as I remember, Mark of the Assassin was on purpose going to be the last DLC, because they were then going to work on DA3.

I was referring to this, if I am not mistaken it was supposed to be the same thing as Dragon Age Origins Awakening:

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Dragon-Age-2-Expansion-Cancelled-Team-Focusing-Next-Game-40604.html
http://pikigeek.com/2012/03/20/bioware-cancels-dragon-age-ii-expansion-asks-fans-for-advice/

and here is the same story on the escapist:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116413-BioWare-Slays-Dragon-Age-II-Expansion

Sure I should have called it an expansion pack but it was basically the same thing, you bought it in a online store and downloaded it. It was going to be DLC in all but name.

Oh great, so here comes Gears of Splinter Cell. I'm out.

Acton Hank:

Kathinka:
gif is relevant!

image

and as usual when something bad happens in gaming, i blame consoles. <.<

Aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnddddddddd..... onto the ignore list you go.

All you guys fellating Chaos Theory, when is the last time you actually played it?

It hasn't aged very well.

I played it last month during the great financial drought of march. In other words I was broke as shit and couldn't buy anymore games so I do what I always do, play an old game. It looks fine to me especially when comparing it to the crap box 360 :D

I jest, but seriously if you play games just for graphical quality I think you need to have a talk with Jim and his episode about David Cage. I still play Deus Ex from time to time and that game looks like pixelated vomit, sure it looks better with the HD texture packs but it still looks like crap. Guess what... the gameplay is good enough to over look it.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6945-Emotions-Polygons-and-Ellen-Page

EMOTIONS!!!

Well I wasn't going to get this piece of shit anyway, but I'm glad they're proving my decision right more and more with each new press release.

This is what happens when you take a quote out of context and sensationalize it. She's not saying that stealth holds Splinter Cell back in terms of gameplay, she's just explaining why it doesn't sell as much as the likes of Battlefield and Call of Duty. Good job dude *facepalm*.

Just watch the latest videos for Blacklist, and tell me that it's not satisfying in terms of stealth. This is coming from the first person to ghost Conviction (check out justanotheraccount's videos, that's me), and someone who's played every game in the franchise. Check out the official forums and you'll see what truly informed people think of the game (looks great so far, in terms of the stealth).

1337mokro:

Acton Hank:

Kathinka:
gif is relevant!

image

and as usual when something bad happens in gaming, i blame consoles. <.<

Aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnddddddddd..... onto the ignore list you go.

All you guys fellating Chaos Theory, when is the last time you actually played it?

It hasn't aged very well.

I played it last month during the great financial drought of march. In other words I was broke as shit and couldn't buy anymore games so I do what I always do, play an old game. It looks fine to me especially when comparing it to the crap box 360 :D

I jest, but seriously if you play games just for graphical quality I think you need to have a talk with Jim and his episode about David Cage. I still play Deus Ex from time to time and that game looks like pixelated vomit, sure it looks better with the HD texture packs but it still looks like crap. Guess what... the gameplay is good enough to over look it.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6945-Emotions-Polygons-and-Ellen-Page

EMOTIONS!!!

UGHHH!!!

If you must know what I meant when I said it hadn't aged well was that the game had clunky crappy controls (especially when it comes to climbing over stuff), had incredibly shitty AI (When it comes to both stealth and combat) and the level design (the game is actually pretty easy as there are generally only 2 or 3 enemies at any given time, the only challenge is when the game conveniently puts you in a series of corridors and small rooms).

Not once did I in any way mention graphics.

PS: If you're going to use childish terms like "crap box 360" then you are so far beneath me that I'm ending this conversation before I waste anymore of my time.

Acton Hank:

1337mokro:

Acton Hank:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnddddddddd..... onto the ignore list you go.

All you guys fellating Chaos Theory, when is the last time you actually played it?

It hasn't aged very well.

I played it last month during the great financial drought of march. In other words I was broke as shit and couldn't buy anymore games so I do what I always do, play an old game. It looks fine to me especially when comparing it to the crap box 360 :D

I jest, but seriously if you play games just for graphical quality I think you need to have a talk with Jim and his episode about David Cage. I still play Deus Ex from time to time and that game looks like pixelated vomit, sure it looks better with the HD texture packs but it still looks like crap. Guess what... the gameplay is good enough to over look it.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6945-Emotions-Polygons-and-Ellen-Page

EMOTIONS!!!

UGHHH!!!

If you must know what I meant when I said it hadn't aged well was that the game had clunky crappy controls (especially when it comes to climbing over stuff), had incredibly shitty AI (When it comes to both stealth and combat) and the level design (the game is actually pretty easy as there are generally only 2 or 3 enemies at any given time, the only challenge is when the game conveniently puts you in a series of corridors and small rooms).

Not once did I in any way mention graphics.

PS: If you're going to use childish terms like "crap box 360" then you are so far beneath me that I'm ending this conversation before I waste anymore of my time.

Apparently I am so far below your level that when I literally say "I am joking" it is still able to fly far over your head :)

Also clunky controls? I did not notice much a difference between sluggish steroid abusing Sam Fisher and stealthy ninja Sam Fisher. In fact the controls are better with the stealthy ninja than the sluggish steroid junky, which I think Yahtzee described as feeling as if you are riding on Sam Fishers shoulder not so much controlling him as slapping him against the back of the head as a suggestion of which direction to move in.

I don't think you should even start bringing in controls when Conviction has a Stand in this particular spot to Jump mechanic.

"without thinking too much or pressing buttons" ... wow. that statement definitely solidifies my perception of how I expect most boardmeetings go. Wow this industry is in a mess.

Looks like another ruined game I'll have to..

-Puts shades on.-

Blacklist.

Acton Hank:

Dr. McD:

Chaos Marine:
Awwww. Is making good games too hard Ubisoft? Awwww. Poor baby.

Making good games isn't, making games is.

MrHide-Patten:
Whilst I'm not a fan of the series, isn't this the train of thought that plagues games like Deus Ex Human: Revolution, Dishonored and Metal Gear Rising. Why should I go the hard way when it is easier to just go mental with rocket launchers?

It makes Mark of the Ninja look like a real oddity now days, a stealth game where when you are spotted, you're fucked.

Dues Ex: Human Revolution definitely suffers from it, Dishonoured suffers from this too, but much less, blink, for example, should have needed more mana. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (still a better title than "Warface") is an action game (although it was originally meant to be an attempt to blend a melee combat system with MGS style stealth, which is one of the reasons it has stealth in it, but the focus is on action), combat is also more like Ninja Gaiden than CoD.

Because Human Revolution and Dishonored make it more satisfying and rewarding when you take the stealth route.
Hitman is also a stealth game that did this kind of thing pretty well.
If you force stealth down a game's throat with no alternative other than a game over screen, then a game often becomes a tedious exercise in trial and error.

Here's the thing about forcing stealth down a stealth game's throat...

IT'S A STEALTH GAME.
IT'S ABOUT BEING STEALTHY.
There are so many other genres you can play if you don't want stealth.
There's only ONE genre you can play if you want stealth.
No, having action doesn't make a stealth game more satisfying, it just takes away development time and resources away from what should have been the main centerpiece of the game.
STEALTH.

The trail and error bit is in fact an important part of the game. It's about actually having to TRY and work at it until you get better. What's wrong with failing until you're good enough to pass it?

1337mokro:
button awesome

dear god now i have to leave this playing for four hours?
crap

Fappy:
The Splinter Cell games haven't been good since Chaos Theory. I didn't think anything would have changed with this new title.

My thoughts exactly.

Double Agent was the last SC title I bought and I have no reason to go back.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here