Tomb Raider's Writer Gives #1ReasonToBe In Gaming Industry

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Tomb Raider's Writer Gives #1ReasonToBe In Gaming Industry

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Rhianna Pratchett thinks emphasizing the positives about being a games industry professional is as important as being honest about the negatives.

"For many years I steered clear of 'women in games' issues," says Rhianna Pratchett, writer of Tomb Raider. "I felt that the best thing I could do for women in games was just be one and do my job to the best of my ability." However she decided to go one step further, because she realized it was important that other women thinking about entering the industry see their peers talking about these issues. That's why Pratchett created the Twitter hashtag #1reasontobe, a means by which female developers were encouraged to share why they're in games and what they get from it. She does think that the games industry is in desperate need of a shake-up, and hopes this will start improving conditions for everyone, males and females alike.

"We need to place stronger emphasis on improving working conditions, burnout rate and industry awareness," says Pratchett. "Ultimately, that's what will improve the quality of the games and the lives of those who create them." She wants to emphasize the positives, as well as talk about the negatives. The best way to reduce sexism in the industry, Pratchett feels, is to get more skilled women working in games, but poor work-life balance does huge damage to creatives, which in turn increases burnout and has a negative impact on the business as a whole. If people aren't aware of the opportunities out there, they'll get discouraged and quit; hence the need for a voice that reminds them there's a reason to be in the industry.

If there's one thing Pratchett hopes will come of this, it's that talking about issues in the industry might encourage more real-world efforts to change things. "Words are great, but it's action that really matters," says Pratchett.

Source: Rock Paper Shotgun

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The best way to reduce sexism in the industry, Pratchett feels, is to get more skilled women working in games

Makes sense to me, at least it isnt the usual "hire more women for a magical 50/50 ratio" shit that comes out of nowhere in these forums sometimes. Devs should hire people that are competent at their jobs, the gender doesnt matter and the fact is that there are more males into game design then females (just look at any game design class, its like a sausage fest) so its not suprising that there are more males fitted for game design then females.

Its just a matter of getting them interested in the idea of following that career choice

josemlopes:

The best way to reduce sexism in the industry, Pratchett feels, is to get more skilled women working in games

Makes sense to me, at least it isnt the usual "hire more women for a magical 50/50 ratio" shit that comes out of nowhere in these forums sometimes. Devs should hire people that are competent at their jobs, the gender doesnt matter and the fact is that there are more males into game design then females (just look at any game design class, its like a sausage fest) so its not suprising that there are more males fitted for game design then females.

Its just a matter of getting them interested in the idea of following that career choice

Indeed, women think they aren't supposed to be game designers because that's always been a dude thing. Girls aren't supposed to play videogames, they're supposed to braid each-other's hair, paint their nails and talk about boys.

Ladies please! Do what you WANT to do! You can now.

I think she makes a very good point about the need to emphasise he positives as well as being honest about the negatives. If there are to be more women (as well as more people in general) interested in creating games, telling them all of the problems involved is not going to encourage them, it's just going to cripple the amount of people showing interest.

Especially as working in the gaming industry is not something you tend to see encouraged to people still in school in the first place. So those involved in it need to put some extra effort to get people interested. Personally I don't think I'd want to, but I haven't seen many decent reasons to choose it as a career. From what I have heard you can get around three times the pay with the required skills in other industries, than if you used those same skills creating games.

The sad thing is that topics such as this one, that actually discuss the topic properly, end up getting around thirty responses maximum; whereas the ones that are just an excuse to sling passive aggressive insults at each other, while contributing nothing to the real issues of sexism, end up with several hundred.

EDIT: Point proven. Barely 20 posts in and it's already dragged off topic into a "Women have it bad!", "Nuh Uh!" pissing contest.

Stay classy Escapist forums.

This is the first time ive agreed with something that deals with the 'women in gaming' issue just because of how it isnt 'JUST PUT MOOR WOMEN IN GAMES 50/50" (I am exaggerating, but sometimes it feels like it). She actually shows that there are bigger issues in this industry than most people see, where women in gaming is muchhhhh lower down on the list (And can be affected by taking on the big issues first).

So good on you, Ms. Pratchett, I fully support your views.

josemlopes:

The best way to reduce sexism in the industry, Pratchett feels, is to get more skilled women working in games

Makes sense to me, at least it isnt the usual "hire more women for a magical 50/50 ratio" shit that comes out of nowhere in these forums sometimes. Devs should hire people that are competent at their jobs, the gender doesnt matter and the fact is that there are more males into game design then females (just look at any game design class, its like a sausage fest) so its not suprising that there are more males fitted for game design then females.

Its just a matter of getting them interested in the idea of following that career choice

thethird0611:
This is the first time ive agreed with something that deals with the 'women in gaming' issue just because of how it isnt 'JUST PUT MOOR WOMEN IN GAMES 50/50" (I am exaggerating, but sometimes it feels like it). She actually shows that there are bigger issues in this industry than most people see, where women in gaming is muchhhhh lower down on the list (And can be affected by taking on the big issues first).

So good on you, Ms. Pratchett, I fully support your views.

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

DVS BSTrD:
[quote="josemlopes" post="7.407351.16989972"]Indeed, women think they aren't supposed to be game designers because that's always been a dude thing. Girls aren't supposed to play videogames, they're supposed to braid each-other's hair, paint their nails and talk about boys.

Ladies please! Do what you WANT to do! You can now.

They are "doing what they want", and for the most part it's not designing games or Information Technology in general. Not even Pratchett is really "working in the games industry". She's a writer and largely came to fame because of the writing career of her father.

There's not going to be an "even split" in the game industry, people need to cope with that and deal with it.



I think it's a great initiative.

Stories of success and achievement, even if there are hardships, are great motivators. My hopes for a more varied future of video games lies in inspiring young people who've yet to choose a career so that when their time comes chances are that much greater of them choosing a career in game design.

Worgen:
[quote="josemlopes" post="7.407351.16989972"]
Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

It's a logical fallacy of relevance in regard to composition of demographics. You see it with people made uncomfortable by having their authority questioned, who set up the 50/50 'straw man' as a result.

By claiming an imaginary pursuit of 'perfect balance' exists, and then mocking it, they are able to deflect from the reality of the shockingly small minority of women who manage to gain access to aggressively-male dominated fields. It suggests that the parity is 'close enough', without stating such.

See also: the 'I found this woman who doesn't think it's wrong, so there's no problem' fallacy, or the 'women don't have a problem with sexism in video games, because just as many play' fallacy. The latter deliberately distorts and/or conceals the problem by interchanging social gaming for video gaming. Which is like saying there's no danger in playing football, because nobody ever gets hurt playing golf. Then there's the 'why don't you just do it' fallacy, which completely ignores the significant forces at work preventing many women from gaining ground, despite equal or better creativity and qualifications.

Only by confronting micro-level problems such as sexist development in gaming will we be able to chip away at the broad sociological problem that exists in society as a whole.

Pink Apocalypse:

Worgen:
[quote="josemlopes" post="7.407351.16989972"]
Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

It's a logical fallacy of relevance in regard to composition of demographics. You see it with people made uncomfortable by having their authority questioned, who set up the 50/50 'straw man' as a result.

By claiming an imaginary pursuit of 'perfect balance' exists, and then mocking it, they are able to deflect from the reality of the shockingly small minority of women who manage to gain access to aggressively-male dominated fields. It suggests that the parity is 'close enough', without stating such.

See also: the 'I found this woman who doesn't think it's wrong, so there's no problem' fallacy, or the 'women don't have a problem with sexism in video games, because just as many play' fallacy. The latter deliberately distorts and/or conceals the problem by interchanging social gaming for video gaming. Which is like saying there's no danger in playing football, because nobody ever gets hurt playing golf. Then there's the 'why don't you just do it' fallacy, which completely ignores the significant forces at work preventing many women from gaining ground, despite equal or better creativity and qualifications.

Only by confronting micro-level problems such as sexist development in gaming will we be able to chip away at the broad sociological problem that exists in society as a whole.

I know its a straw man they are putting together, that's why I'm calling them for sources. I want them to realize they are full of shit and someone will call them out on it even if they aren't willing to admit it to other people.

women making games? actions are more important than words??? THATS WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING!And people be like: "naw man we can totally piss and moan the sexism out of gaming." :)

defskyoen:
*snip*

A big thank you for showing these links. A very interesting documentary, I must say.

Worgen:

Pink Apocalypse:

Worgen:
[quote="josemlopes" post="7.407351.16989972"]
Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

It's a logical fallacy of relevance in regard to composition of demographics. You see it with people made uncomfortable by having their authority questioned, who set up the 50/50 'straw man' as a result.

By claiming an imaginary pursuit of 'perfect balance' exists, and then mocking it, they are able to deflect from the reality of the shockingly small minority of women who manage to gain access to aggressively-male dominated fields. It suggests that the parity is 'close enough', without stating such.

See also: the 'I found this woman who doesn't think it's wrong, so there's no problem' fallacy, or the 'women don't have a problem with sexism in video games, because just as many play' fallacy. The latter deliberately distorts and/or conceals the problem by interchanging social gaming for video gaming. Which is like saying there's no danger in playing football, because nobody ever gets hurt playing golf. Then there's the 'why don't you just do it' fallacy, which completely ignores the significant forces at work preventing many women from gaining ground, despite equal or better creativity and qualifications.

Only by confronting micro-level problems such as sexist development in gaming will we be able to chip away at the broad sociological problem that exists in society as a whole.

I know its a straw man they are putting together, that's why I'm calling them for sources. I want them to realize they are full of shit and someone will call them out on it even if they aren't willing to admit it to other people.

Its a straw man, but here is the thing, instead of going to the end of the road and seeing a shit load of dudes and barely woman why dont you go to the start of that road and try to understand why mostly dudes choose to walk that road? What matters is how many females actually choose the gaming industry as their career choice.

You can check in schools and you can check in indie sites like Indiedb.com, that is where most of them start, at schools or by learning at home and putting their work as a proof of their knowladge. That is where you have to ask "Why arent there more women here?" because if they arent here how can they even get to the end of the road.

And we are not in the 30's where everyone thinks its foolish for a woman to work anywhere that isnt a kitchen.

josemlopes:
Its a straw man, but here is the thing, instead of going to the end of the road and seeing a shit load of dudes and barely woman why dont you go to the start of that road and try to understand why mostly dudes choose to walk that road? What matters is how many females actually choose the gaming industry as their career choice.

You can check in schools and you can check in indie sites like Indiedb.com, that is where most of them start, at schools or by learning at home and putting their work as a proof of their knowladge. That is where you have to ask "Why arent there more women here?" because if they arent here how can they even get to the end of the road.

And we are not in the 30's where everyone thinks its foolish for a woman to work anywhere that isnt a kitchen.

A lot of women choose not to join male-dominated industries because they know they're going to be facing discrimination and harassment for their entire careers. Do you think any women saw what happened to Jennifer Hepler and thought, "Yeah, I want to be a part of that?" As long as there is still a widespread sexism problem in the industry, not a lot of young women are going to go into game design. If you want to see more gender equality in the games industry, we have to simultaneously deal with the start and end of the road. And a good place to start is consistently reminding our peers that harassing women on the Internet who disagree with them is not okay.

blalien:

josemlopes:
Its a straw man, but here is the thing, instead of going to the end of the road and seeing a shit load of dudes and barely woman why dont you go to the start of that road and try to understand why mostly dudes choose to walk that road? What matters is how many females actually choose the gaming industry as their career choice.

You can check in schools and you can check in indie sites like Indiedb.com, that is where most of them start, at schools or by learning at home and putting their work as a proof of their knowladge. That is where you have to ask "Why arent there more women here?" because if they arent here how can they even get to the end of the road.

And we are not in the 30's where everyone thinks its foolish for a woman to work anywhere that isnt a kitchen.

A lot of women choose not to join male-dominated industries because they know they're going to be facing discrimination and harassment for their entire careers. Do you think any women saw what happened to Jennifer Hepler and thought, "Yeah, I want to be a part of that?" As long as there is still a widespread sexism problem in the industry, not a lot of young women are going to go into game design. If you want to see more gender equality in the games industry, we have to simultaneously deal with the start and end of the road. And a good place to start is consistently reminding our peers that harassing women on the Internet who disagree with them is not okay.

Jennifer Hepler? She could have been the most manly man out there that the same shit would have happened, saying things like "Playing games is my least favourite thing" and how games should have a skip button? A lot of male developers got shit thrown at them for a lot less.

Its not about "OMG the writter is a woman", its more about "I didnt enjoyed the game and since this is game related I am going to insult the living shit of whoever did this".

How many people insulted Tanya Jessen over Bulletstorm?

Yeah... people dont care about the gender.

josemlopes:
Jennifer Hepler? She could have been the most manly man out there that the same shit would have happened, saying things like "Playing games is my least favourite thing" and how games should have a skip button? A lot of male developers got shit thrown at them for a lot less.

Its not about "OMG the writter is a woman", its more about "I didnt enjoyed the game and since this is game related I am going to insult the living shit of whoever did this".

How many people insulted Tanya Jessen over Bulletstorm?

Yeah... people dont care about the gender.

It's not just her. There's Anita Sarkeesian, Jessica Chobot, Adria Richards, Rebecca Watson, etc. They all did something to piss off the Internet nerd community, merited or not, and in each case the response was insanely disproportionate. Yeah, Jennifer Hepler probably would have still taken a bunch of crap if she were a man, but there would have been a lot fewer rape threats. Whenever the neckbeards get pissed at somebody, their response is always worse if it's a woman.

Worgen:
(...) I know its a straw man they are putting together, that's why I'm calling them for sources. I want them to realize they are full of shit and someone will call them out on it even if they aren't willing to admit it to other people.

+1

I'm following such matters with interest, and I have never heard anything calling for a 50/50 gender ratio either.

josemlopes:
Yeah... people dont care about the gender.

I'm afraid that's not the reality in the gaming community.

blalien:
It's not just her. There's Anita Sarkeesian, Jessica Chobot, Adria Richards, Rebecca Watson, etc. (...)

Absolutely right. And this "etc" is a long list, including probably every female journalist and commenter who ever said anything critical about any gender-related issue in games.

blalien:

josemlopes:
Jennifer Hepler? She could have been the most manly man out there that the same shit would have happened, saying things like "Playing games is my least favourite thing" and how games should have a skip button? A lot of male developers got shit thrown at them for a lot less.

Its not about "OMG the writter is a woman", its more about "I didnt enjoyed the game and since this is game related I am going to insult the living shit of whoever did this".

How many people insulted Tanya Jessen over Bulletstorm?

Yeah... people dont care about the gender.

It's not just her. There's Anita Sarkeesian, Jessica Chobot, Adria Richards, Rebecca Watson, etc. They all did something to piss off the Internet nerd community, merited or not, and in each case the response was insanely disproportionate. Yeah, Jennifer Hepler probably would have still taken a bunch of crap if she were a man, but there would have been a lot fewer rape threats. Whenever the neckbeards get pissed at somebody, their response is always worse if it's a woman.

Jessica Chobot's thing didnt have anything to do with her being a woman but with her being a game journalist that was involved in the development of Mass Effect (the issue being game journalism integrity), was Geoff Keighley a woman when he got the shitstorm about the Doritos. Adria Richards? She was an idiot, some guys were privatly saying sex jokes to each other, not even sexist jokes but just sex jokes.

Rebecca Watson, what the fuck does she have to do with video games?

Only the case with Anita Sarkeesian had her gender play an important role in the shitstorm that happened and even then if she was a guy there would still be a shitstorm because any discussion about sexism becomes one. Even this one.

Most of these cases where women were involved in some "game scandal" fucking wasnt because they were women (Rebecca Watson's case was but that case isnt part of sexism in the game industry but part of sexism in whatever she is in), there are also a lot of "game scandals" that involve guys and you see that shitstorms also happen to them.

Adam Orth was an idiot and because of what he said he got a shitstorm around him, Adria Richards was an idiot too and because of what she said she also got one. Its about what you do and say, not about who you are

josemlopes:

Jessica Chobot's thing didnt have anything to do with her being a woman but with her being a game journalist that was involved in the development of Mass Effect (the issue being game journalism integrity), was Geoff Keighley a woman when he got the shitstorm about the Doritos. Adria Richards? She was an idiot, some guys were privatly saying sex jokes to each other, not even sexist jokes but just sex jokes.

Rebecca Watson, what the fuck does she have to do with video games?

Only the case with Anita Sarkeesian had her gender play an important role in the shitstorm that happened and even then if she was a guy there would still be a shitstorm because any discussion about sexism becomes one. Even this one.

Most of these cases where women were involved in some "game scandal" fucking wasnt because they were women (Rebecca Watson's case was but that case isnt part of sexism in the game industry but part of sexism in whatever she is in), there are also a lot of "game scandals" that involve guys and you see that shitstorms also happen to them.

Adam Orth was an idiot and because of what he said he got a shitstorm around him, Adria Richards was an idiot too and because of what she said she also got one. Its about what you do and say, not about who you are

I included Rebecca Watson because she took a lot of shit on video game forums. But by picking apart the details you are completely missing my point. My point is that when a woman gets a shitstorm, it's almost always far worse in proportion to what she did to deserve it. Each one of those women I mentioned had their web-sites DDOS'd, their personal information leaked online, and were inundated with rape and death threats. Men can get shitstorms too, but they're never nearly as bad and usually they have to say something pretty bad to deserve it.

Man says something terrible: Internet bitches about it for a few days
Woman disagrees with general consensus of Internet: Internet makes it their mission to ruin her life

I've seen it happen to a friend of mine. It's pretty fucking bad. She took it all pretty well until they started threatening her family. If you don't think the Internet treats women absolutely terribly, then you are not paying attention.

josemlopes:
Adam Orth was an idiot and because of what he said he got a shitstorm around him, Adria Richards was an idiot too and because of what she said she also got one. Its about what you do and say, not about who you are

But at least he didn't have to endure countless gendered slurs, like those women had to.

The tone matters too.

Edit: +1 to everything that blelian said.

CloudAtlas:

josemlopes:
Adam Orth was an idiot and because of what he said he got a shitstorm around him, Adria Richards was an idiot too and because of what she said she also got one. Its about what you do and say, not about who you are

But at least he didn't have to endure countless gendered slurs, like those women had to.

The tone matters too.

Edit: +1 to everything that blelian said.

That is pretty nasty. Still, I think it's just because such insults are available when addressing the opposite sex. Is there an insult in existence that a straight man can hurl at another man that is just as bad as a rape threat? If there was, I think we'd hear it, but no such insult comes to mind. When certain fanboys rage, it's pretty scary (and pitiful) what they come up with.

Worgen:

josemlopes:

The best way to reduce sexism in the industry, Pratchett feels, is to get more skilled women working in games

Makes sense to me, at least it isnt the usual "hire more women for a magical 50/50 ratio" shit that comes out of nowhere in these forums sometimes. Devs should hire people that are competent at their jobs, the gender doesnt matter and the fact is that there are more males into game design then females (just look at any game design class, its like a sausage fest) so its not suprising that there are more males fitted for game design then females.

Its just a matter of getting them interested in the idea of following that career choice

thethird0611:
This is the first time ive agreed with something that deals with the 'women in gaming' issue just because of how it isnt 'JUST PUT MOOR WOMEN IN GAMES 50/50" (I am exaggerating, but sometimes it feels like it). She actually shows that there are bigger issues in this industry than most people see, where women in gaming is muchhhhh lower down on the list (And can be affected by taking on the big issues first).

So good on you, Ms. Pratchett, I fully support your views.

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

Well if you look at women in science reports by the EU (example here:http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-303_en.htm ) you will find complaints that the women in high levels of academia are underrepresented with statistics but they don't really say what the statistics should be, so its somewhat the assumption politicians should keep throwing stuff at it until it's 50/50.

blalien:

I included Rebecca Watson because she took a lot of shit on video game forums. But by picking apart the details you are completely missing my point. My point is that when a woman gets a shitstorm, it's almost always far worse in proportion to what she did to deserve it. Each one of those women I mentioned had their web-sites DDOS'd, their personal information leaked online, and were inundated with rape and death threats. Men can get shitstorms too, but they're never nearly as bad and usually they have to say something pretty bad to deserve it.

Man says something terrible: Internet bitches about it for a few days
Woman disagrees with general consensus of Internet: Internet makes it their mission to ruin her life

I've seen it happen to a friend of mine. It's pretty fucking bad. She took it all pretty well until they started threatening her family. If you don't think the Internet treats women absolutely terribly, then you are not paying attention.

Dont forget that if the subject of discussion has something remotly related to women it takes probably less then 10 comments for the subject to change from whatever it was into a sexism debate on the internet, and a sexism debate in the internet gets a lot more attention then whatever the first subject of discussion was (it gets a lot more heated too).

Dragon Crowns thing that has been going on also had a lot of heat around it and if Im correct that was a dude, but since the topic was about sexism it generated a lot more attention. You get a lot more to talk if you can talk about what happened and then wander off to a sexism debate. (Like in here)

wizzy555:

Worgen:

josemlopes:

Makes sense to me, at least it isnt the usual "hire more women for a magical 50/50 ratio" shit that comes out of nowhere in these forums sometimes. Devs should hire people that are competent at their jobs, the gender doesnt matter and the fact is that there are more males into game design then females (just look at any game design class, its like a sausage fest) so its not suprising that there are more males fitted for game design then females.

Its just a matter of getting them interested in the idea of following that career choice

thethird0611:
This is the first time ive agreed with something that deals with the 'women in gaming' issue just because of how it isnt 'JUST PUT MOOR WOMEN IN GAMES 50/50" (I am exaggerating, but sometimes it feels like it). She actually shows that there are bigger issues in this industry than most people see, where women in gaming is muchhhhh lower down on the list (And can be affected by taking on the big issues first).

So good on you, Ms. Pratchett, I fully support your views.

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

Well if you look at women in science reports by the EU (example here:http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-303_en.htm ) you will find complaints that the women in high levels of academia are underrepresented with statistics but they don't really say what the statistics should be, so its somewhat the assumption politicians should keep throwing stuff at it until it's 50/50.

Seems like getting the 50/50 representation from that is only something someone would do if they wanted to able a jerk about things.

Worgen:

Seems like getting the 50/50 representation from that is only something someone would do if they wanted to able a jerk about things.

What do you mean?

Well tell me, if you have statistics at hand, how do you decide if something needs to be done or everything is fine and you can pay attention to other problems.

defskyoen:
snip

Yyyeeeeaaa... Ima call shenanigans on that documentary. The guy doesn't know what he is talking about. At all. He, and a lot of the people he chooses to interview forget to take into account history, psychology, societies impact on the brain, and numerous other more detailed factors that I was able to think up off the top of my head. So. Shenanigans.

Terramax:

A big thank you for showing these links. A very interesting documentary, I must say.

Don't fall for it.

dragonswarrior:

defskyoen:
snip

Yyyeeeeaaa... Ima call shenanigans on that documentary. The guy doesn't know what he is talking about. At all. He, and a lot of the people he chooses to interview forget to take into account history, psychology, societies impact on the brain, and numerous other more detailed factors that I was able to think up off the top of my head. So. Shenanigans.

Terramax:

A big thank you for showing these links. A very interesting documentary, I must say.

Don't fall for it.

Eh, he specifically talks to researchers doing experiments on babies to discount (most if not all) effects of society. Simon Baron-Cohen is a very respected researcher.

Worgen:

wizzy555:

Worgen:

Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

Well if you look at women in science reports by the EU (example here:http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-303_en.htm ) you will find complaints that the women in high levels of academia are underrepresented with statistics but they don't really say what the statistics should be, so its somewhat the assumption politicians should keep throwing stuff at it until it's 50/50.

Seems like getting the 50/50 representation from that is only something someone would do if they wanted to able a jerk about things.

Not really, look at it from the other direction.

[Made up conversation to express the difficulty in drawing a line].
------
"With women comprising 35% of research positions currently available, we feel women are adequately represented in the sciences."

"No they're not, that isn't enough."

"How much more do you need then?"

"Until men are no longer over-represented."

"How much is over-represented?"
------

So the automatic assumption is that people who claim under/over representation must be striving for a 50/50 situation, because if the natural state of the system isn't a proper representation, then we need a distribution that makes sense.

The equation would be % men = 100/(# groups) * (modifier for the gender-applicability of the job). So since [# of groups] is always 2 (two genders) and modern sensibilities tell us that the modifier should be 1 (women and men are equally equipped to do jobs), it breaks down to % men = 100/2 * 1 = 50. Always.

EvilRoy:

Worgen:

wizzy555:

Well if you look at women in science reports by the EU (example here:http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-13-303_en.htm ) you will find complaints that the women in high levels of academia are underrepresented with statistics but they don't really say what the statistics should be, so its somewhat the assumption politicians should keep throwing stuff at it until it's 50/50.

Seems like getting the 50/50 representation from that is only something someone would do if they wanted to able a jerk about things.

Not really, look at it from the other direction.

[Made up conversation to express the difficulty in drawing a line].
------
"With women comprising 35% of research positions currently available, we feel women are adequately represented in the sciences."

"No they're not, that isn't enough."

"How much more do you need then?"

"Until men are no longer over-represented."

"How much is over-represented?"
------

So the automatic assumption is that people who claim under/over representation must be striving for a 50/50 situation, because if the natural state of the system isn't a proper representation, then we need a distribution that makes sense.

The equation would be % men = 100/(# groups) * (modifier for the gender-applicability of the job). So since [# of groups] is always 2 (two genders) and modern sensibilities tell us that the modifier should be 1 (women and men are equally equipped to do jobs), it breaks down to % men = 100/2 * 1 = 50. Always.

Because these kind of conversations almost always end with me getting a warning or temp ban. I'm just going to respond with a picture of Rarity fighting a giant crab.
image

Worgen:
Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

This.

The only time I see this is when people strawman. Usually, when people (like me) suggest that more women would be good, I get angry responses about how 50/50 makes no sense. But I never said 50/50 - I said "more".

Worgen:

EvilRoy:

Worgen:

Seems like getting the 50/50 representation from that is only something someone would do if they wanted to able a jerk about things.

Not really, look at it from the other direction.

[Made up conversation to express the difficulty in drawing a line].
------
"With women comprising 35% of research positions currently available, we feel women are adequately represented in the sciences."

"No they're not, that isn't enough."

"How much more do you need then?"

"Until men are no longer over-represented."

"How much is over-represented?"
------

So the automatic assumption is that people who claim under/over representation must be striving for a 50/50 situation, because if the natural state of the system isn't a proper representation, then we need a distribution that makes sense.

The equation would be % men = 100/(# groups) * (modifier for the gender-applicability of the job). So since [# of groups] is always 2 (two genders) and modern sensibilities tell us that the modifier should be 1 (women and men are equally equipped to do jobs), it breaks down to % men = 100/2 * 1 = 50. Always.

Because these kind of conversations almost always end with me getting a warning or temp ban. I'm just going to respond with a picture of Rarity fighting a giant crab.
image

Fair enough. Never actually seen an episode of MLP, but its a well drawn picture.

Sound head on Ms. Pratchett's shoulders - considering we're talking about Discworld's heir appararent, makes a lot of sense + always good to see people thinking about the industry in more than just their own habitat.

image

Much respect for this lady. Instead of going on about perfect equality because reasons she is simply trying to make the industry better for everyone, without fuss or uproar.

Everyone seems to think this is a great idea. I don't trust it. No one EVER agrees on these things. There has got to be some hidden group on the internet violently opposed to it that is just waiting to surface.

I also think this is a great idea, while the one reason why stuff was trying to bring to light that there is a problem (unfortunately didn't really seem to succeed at all) I can see it more than anything giving women reasons not to enter the industry. Particularly with the negative response that comes whenever a women is "foolish" enough to criticize it. With any luck this will do the opposite and show that there is more than just that

Bara_no_Hime:

Worgen:
Who the hell is this mystical cabal that keeps saying 50/50? I've never heard anyone make a claim that the gender split needed to be 50/50, show me some sources here.

This.

The only time I see this is when people strawman. Usually, when people (like me) suggest that more women would be good, I get angry responses about how 50/50 makes no sense. But I never said 50/50 - I said "more".

When does "more" end?

Legion:
I think she makes a very good point about the need to emphasise he positives as well as being honest about the negatives. If there are to be more women (as well as more people in general) interested in creating games, telling them all of the problems involved is not going to encourage them, it's just going to cripple the amount of people showing interest.

Especially as working in the gaming industry is not something you tend to see encouraged to people still in school in the first place. So those involved in it need to put some extra effort to get people interested. Personally I don't think I'd want to, but I haven't seen many decent reasons to choose it as a career. From what I have heard you can get around three times the pay with the required skills in other industries, than if you used those same skills creating games.

The sad thing is that topics such as this one, that actually discuss the topic properly, end up getting around thirty responses maximum; whereas the ones that are just an excuse to sling passive aggressive insults at each other, while contributing nothing to the real issues of sexism, end up with several hundred.

EDIT: Point proven. Barely 20 posts in and it's already dragged off topic into a "Women have it bad!", "Nuh Uh!" pissing contest.

Stay classy Escapist forums.

To counter your passive aggressive "pissing contest" remark, what is your opinion on the 'root cause' of sexism and how would you fix it besides having more female-centric gaming studios (silicon sisters?) that appeal to more women, then just those that are already gamers.

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