World of Warcraft Loses 1.3 Million Subscribers in 3 Months

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I smell a new expansion pack on the horizon!

The game has been around for so long I do wonder if many "new" things in the game feel rehashed from the old ones. Aside from boss mechanics have they really made anything different? Trash mecyanics or minigames. I hate the comparison, but The Old Republic did introduce treasure hunting to find unique items.

DugMachine:

tl;dr Talents were changed for the better.

No, they really weren't. They were dumbed down and, maybe it's because I've sicne played better games but when I went back to wow for a short stint the talent system just screamed: "LOOK AT ME ! YOU DON'T NEED BRAINS TO FIGURE ME OUT!!!!"

Kahani:

Wait, we're talking about a game, right? As in something fun to do in your spare time? What other reason could anyone possibly have for playing it?

You haven't seriously raided or PvPed in WoW before, have you?

I'm the first person to champion "playing games for entertainment", but if you want to be (I shudder to use the term) "competitive" in WoW you can't just bumble through without knowing what you're doing. It's the same sort of mentality you have to adopt for something like League of Legends or DotA - If you're holding everyone else back, you're going to have a team of angry people bitching you out in likely very awful and demeaning ways.

Kahani:

Waaghpowa:
Incoming doomsayers who think WoW is dying.

WoW is dying. See the quotes from Bobby Kotick in this very article. Note in particular how he says they believe in the franchise, not the specific game. It's certainly not going to suddenly collapse and disappear overnight, but there's a steady flow of people leaving and each new content release gets less of them to come back for less time. It's dying a slow death from old age and it's going to take at least a few more years before it's done, but it's still dying.

Saying that a game is slowly dying is stating the obvious. No game, no matter how good, can maintain such a high player base forever. Even Counter Strike, arguably the most popular FPS of all time has a player base that's considerably smaller and dwindling.

It's incredibly obnoxious to hear people shout "dying" the moment any news of declining subscriptions are posted. Thank you for stating the obvious in the natural life of ANY online game. Although I don't think "News Flash: people getting tired of a nearly 10 year old game" gets as many hits as "WOW SUBS DECLINING! END OF THE WORLD".

People have been talking about WoW's inevitable death for years, can we give it a rest already?

NortherWolf:

DugMachine:

tl;dr Talents were changed for the better.

No, they really weren't. They were dumbed down and, maybe it's because I've sicne played better games but when I went back to wow for a short stint the talent system just screamed: "LOOK AT ME ! YOU DON'T NEED BRAINS TO FIGURE ME OUT!!!!"

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=wow+paladin+ret+spec&aq=f&oq=wow+paladin+ret+spec&aqs=chrome.0.57j0l3.5268j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

There we go, that's how you found out your talent spec now and then, lots of brainpower needed there. Some people crunched the numbers and said what the best spec was in order to perform your job, you would look it up and copy it. Aside from 1 or two points, you didn't deviate because it would gimp your performance. Sure there were lots of places to click, but in the end you had no choice but to choose the same spec as everyone else in order to perform properly.

World of Warcraft is almost 10 years old. That's practically a lifetime in this industry.

I'm sure Blizzard-Activision have a follow-up in preproduction phase, but I do hope they make Warcraft 4 to bridge the two games (please?)

They can have my sub if they provide legacy servers for previous expansions and vanilla.

Until DayZ Standalone/World of Darkness/Star Citizen anyway.

Eh, even though this probably isn't a sign of WOW dying, as someone who has stopped playing, I have to say that I can think of a few good things happening if WOW wasn't the leader of the MMO pack anymore. It's mostly about the possible advancement. A TON of advancement in the general standard of MMOs.

Seriously, the battle system is horribly outdated compared to some of the newer MMOs. The graphics are kind of...bad, compared to some of the newer ones. And a ton of other stuff. Yet WOW is still the leading MMO, and probably will be for a while.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate WOW. I actually rather like it still. I can see the charm in it, I played for three years, and I still get the urge to start up another character sometimes. There is something there that is keeping these people.

shrekfan246:

Lunar Templar:

Waaghpowa:
Incoming doomsayers who think WoW is dying.

1/10 the player base isn't anything to over look, and while I will throw a fucking party celebrating the death of this over glorified bore feast when it's LONG over due death finally comes.

1/10 the player base isn't really a sign of 'end times', it's just a trend to keep an eye on and see if it gets worse

now :D it that number was 50% of subs, oh hell the fuck yes, I'd be rocken a sandwich board that says 'the end of WoW is neigh!!'

Do you play World of Warcraft?

Are the only MMOs you do play "WoW-clones"?

No?

Then why so much vitriol for a game that doesn't impact you in any way?

Desert Punk:

Because too many people have been trying to copy it, and it eats up a large portion of the market share, meaning if a big bland game dies other smaller projects will likely see an increase in players/sales

This is relevant too -

If WoW dies, people aren't going to stop trying to copy WoW. It has been the biggest success in MMO history for over a decade. You really think people aren't going to try capturing that lightning in their own bottles, especially when the titan of the MMO section has finally fallen?

Economics, how do?

Also, more and more games that aren't "WoW-clones" have been coming out lately. Maybe just look for them instead of painting everything with the same brush. Oh, wait, right, this is the same community that thinks the only big titles currently being released in the industry are shooters.

RedLister:
I gave the Panda exp pack a go when it came out and ended up quitting again after a month. Hated what they did with talents. They made it so damn simple into a you can select 1 talent per every 15 levels and alot of the old talents from the old talent trees were baseline when you chose your spec. It was a major killer for me since i enjoyed watching my toon grow in power and i had to think on what talents i wanted since to gain one talent i would have to forfeit another etc.

Ghostcrawler said he changed the talent system to this oversimplified mess because the old system was too cookie cutter, where everyone was the same spec. Ghostcrawler is speaking out of his arse. Its even more cookie cutter and everyone was the same (example being a massive number of warriors chose shockwave and avatar)

No.

I'm sorry, but no.

The talent system now has different abilities that are good for different encounters. There are ones that are certainly "better" overall, but it encourages far more flexibility than pre-Mists. Because pre-Mists, if you wanted to raid or PvP and wanted to not be laughed out of any group you joined, you had to pick exactly the same talents that everyone else was picking, with leeway for maybe one or two skills. That is what "cookie cutter" means. It was all extremely pointless, useless bloat of "[Spell/Ability] deals 5/10/15% more damage". It wasn't "thinking" on what talents you had to get, unless you were only going to be playing for kicks and giggles.

For most of the classes now, though? You actually have talents that have different utilities. So instead of picking something just because you have to get further down your talent tree, you can pick something because it will be more handy during an encounter or because it'll give you more survivability. It's more dynamic, it doesn't encourage everyone looking at the best player of their class and copying their spec.

ok i admit i somewhat went off on one there and should of worded it alot better and less aggresively. I put my hands up and admit that. I never had problem with cookie cutting spec personally(I now admit you presented evidence that it was there, i mainly kept to a small group of friends when i played) Reason i didn't have problems was i was stubborn and refused to do the mainstream specs. Back in TBC i leveled as protection with warrior and did regular pvp with it too, it worked out well because they didn't have much experience fighting such a spec. At level 70 i went arms...biggest mistake i ever made. Although i refused to follow the norm and i managed to get an arms spec which let me keep my concussion blow but had to sacrifice something else. I just love the experimenting outside the norm. the new tree took that away from me somewhat and probably explains why i pretty much ranted and spoke out of my arse.

Hmm when i think about it more. I don't outright hate the new spec system. I like having say shockwave without having to be full on prot. Just maybe could use the ability to giving players a chance to choose more frequently then every 15 levels.

Too long to read? Should of worded better and less aggressively and i was way to biased. You and DugMachine gave good arguments for me to think on. Put my hands up and admit that.

90% of this forum is expecting WoW to die at any time in the near future and that is Un-freaking-likely. The number of current players is so overwhelmingly higher than any other current MMO, that they can loose 4/5 of subscribers and still remain profitable. I expect this MMO is still going to be thriving for another five years.

Mahoshonen:
World of Warcraft is almost 10 years old. That's practically a lifetime in this industry.

I'm sure Blizzard-Activision have a follow-up in preproduction phase, but I do hope they make Warcraft 4 to bridge the two games (please?)

I second the call for a Warcarft 4. It would be epic to return to a strategy game format, burning and trouncing villages and cities your pc previously visited and quested in.

elvor0:

NortherWolf:

DugMachine:

tl;dr Talents were changed for the better.

No, they really weren't. They were dumbed down and, maybe it's because I've sicne played better games but when I went back to wow for a short stint the talent system just screamed: "LOOK AT ME ! YOU DON'T NEED BRAINS TO FIGURE ME OUT!!!!"

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=wow+paladin+ret+spec&aq=f&oq=wow+paladin+ret+spec&aqs=chrome.0.57j0l3.5268j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

There we go, that's how you found out your talent spec now and then, lots of brainpower needed there. Some people crunched the numbers and said what the best spec was in order to perform your job, you would look it up and copy it. Aside from 1 or two points, you didn't deviate because it would gimp your performance. Sure there were lots of places to click, but in the end you had no choice but to choose the same spec as everyone else in order to perform properly.

So? 60 points(or 30 after Cata) was still more chances to make something interesting than 6x3. And you could really make a stinks-to-high-heaven build before. Rather than;
"CHOOSE OPTION A, B OR C!"

Duder Dudeson:

StewShearer:
World of Warcraft Loses 1.3 Million Subscribers in 3 Months

Activision Blizzard isn't worried despite a significant decline in subscriptions between the months of March and June.

I think your months are off a bit unless time travel was involved. I think one of the biggest mistakes was removing the old world. I miss old unfinished zones to explore.

What they really got wrong was not mentioning that most of the loss was in the East.

These losses aren't because of some sudden drop in wow quality. The market in China and its neighbors is saturated to near boiling point with F2P games.

Their drops in the west are considerably smaller. But that headline/news post would not be as exciting I guess.

Thoric485:
They can have my sub if they provide legacy servers for previous expansions and vanilla.

Until DayZ Standalone/World of Darkness/Star Citizen anyway.

IIRC Catacylsm was as a result of them no longer having any of the original code. They couldn't make improvements to the vanilla content as it was so they decided to have a big event to explain redoing it all.

At least I vaguely recall that being the cause.

NortherWolf:

elvor0:

NortherWolf:

No, they really weren't. They were dumbed down and, maybe it's because I've sicne played better games but when I went back to wow for a short stint the talent system just screamed: "LOOK AT ME ! YOU DON'T NEED BRAINS TO FIGURE ME OUT!!!!"

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=wow+paladin+ret+spec&aq=f&oq=wow+paladin+ret+spec&aqs=chrome.0.57j0l3.5268j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

There we go, that's how you found out your talent spec now and then, lots of brainpower needed there. Some people crunched the numbers and said what the best spec was in order to perform your job, you would look it up and copy it. Aside from 1 or two points, you didn't deviate because it would gimp your performance. Sure there were lots of places to click, but in the end you had no choice but to choose the same spec as everyone else in order to perform properly.

So? 60 points(or 30 after Cata) was still more chances to make something interesting than 6x3. And you could really make a stinks-to-high-heaven build before. Rather than;
"CHOOSE OPTION A, B OR C!"

And nobody chose the "stinks to high heaven" talent builds because they didn't work. You would severely gimp yourself if you put points in every single talent tree.

NortherWolf:

DugMachine:

tl;dr Talents were changed for the better.

No, they really weren't. They were dumbed down and, maybe it's because I've sicne played better games but when I went back to wow for a short stint the talent system just screamed: "LOOK AT ME ! YOU DON'T NEED BRAINS TO FIGURE ME OUT!!!!"

I also like how you ignored the rest of my post. y'know about how I change my talents constantly for PvP depending on team comps. From what I remember I maybe changed talents 2 times in wrath. I got the cookie cutter dps spec and the cookie cutter tank build and never changed them. Because to be viable in endgame PvP or PvE you had to follow the strict builds.

Vhite:
Do we really need a new thread every time WoW subscriber base fluctuates? Number of subscribers is a sine curve with new content patch at every second π. It has large player base so fluctuation is also large, this isn't any major drop, most of them will come back next patch, probably even more so since it's going to be summer by then.

Why are you using a radian scale for this sine wave? Radians suck.

Whatislove:
Bring back burning crusade.. that's where WoW peaked.

This stupid, mind-numbingly simple makeover they have given wow with the talents and gear is just so boring - it's as if blizzard wanted to expand their player base to people without higher brain function.

BC wasn't a high water point. Stop drinking the koolaid.

And the idea that an MMO almost a decade old that hasn't undergone any major change to it's core game play, is losing it's player base is not at all surprising. It's unusual in the modern game market of proverbial "fuck n' chuck" games for sales, let alone subscriptions, to stay stable for the first year, let alone looking 5, 6, 7 years out.

WoWs numbers have always been a lie.
how many of those "subs" are actually Asian timecards with partially unused credit ?
go ask them that.

in reality the game has around 1-2 million subscribers in both the EU and US tops.
a figure which in no way marks them out as an untouchable behemoth.
the Asian markets (where most of the numbers are) mean next to nothing except to external marketing.

it's an "also ran" there to domestic products most people in the west have never heard of and disparity in the economic environment (and the fact the game is run by 3rd parties there) means the returns to blizzard from those numbers are practically nothing compared to that from the western regions where the game is hemorrhaging its most financially valuable players badly and has been for some considerable time.

it's actually in serious trouble...as is the rest of blizzards future business plan/release schedule...

as for WoW in general...

when i think back to my time in WoW i always get a feeling of deep sadness...

its kind of hard to encapsulate exactly why...but i remember being highly impressed (having some game making experience) with being able traverse an entire world (ok, ok continent) without a single loading screen and that it was a beautifully constructed "living breathing world" where i'd run into and interact with many other occupants in it doing exactly the same as i went along.

my favourite moments from my WoW past are simply not what the company or supposedly elite and srs gamers tell me what they are supposed to be...

from co-questing at length with a Tauren at like 4am in the morning...while playing Alliance and neither of us being able to communicate except via emotes and "body language"...to killing The Lich King NOT because i got a website ranking or an achievement or even phat loots (i quit the game almost straight after that) but rather because i had come to the game of the back of Warcraft 3, had always hated him and late one night (again) when i was milling around in game and seriously thinking about quitting (mostly over the fisher price sci-fi of TBC and the disappointment over the unhindered lying the company had started causally undertaking about "the lore" to people who didn't know any better) i ran into Pamela Redpath in The Plaguelands...and ended up weeping irl and swearing an oath to a fictional character in a video game...

then there's the insane fun that was AV when you knew almost every person you were fighting and the battles (yes "battles" ie not small map team deathmatch) lasted days and were server events almost all by themselves...i even had a personal nemesis (the UD Rogue foil to my Human Shadow Priest).

i have always kinda felt deep in my gut they didn't know what they had and the game was more than its individually over analysed parts...

they had made a "a living breathing world" and it was a world that i (and a great many others) truly loved.

and i was there right at the start...before the trend followers and "srs" gamers and PK seeking locusts turned up to inspect and critique a game that we had made a success big enough to capture their attention.

now ? "the world" bit is almost an afterthought, its little more than mostly abandoned lobby for self styled "power gamers" desperate for their next skinner box fix and a themepark based on it's former self.

storytelling and world building context is treated with near derision and lets not even get me started on how far up the their own beloved (supposed) creations arses the developers are...Deathwing (and Cata) managed to destroy or partially destroy the majority of Alliance towns and cities while at the same time redecorating almost the entirety the Horde...i almost completely lost it when metzen said flat out at blizzcon "we don't know how to make The Alliance cool"...well feck you metzen...if you can't you should be fired...whatever happened to "concentrated coolness"...isn't that supposed to be the Blizzard motto and to be applied to everything ?

blizzard captured lightning in a bottle but at the end of the day i think the really didn't know what they had or how they almost accidentally did it.

they very conspicuously began to believe their own marketing/investor hype about how awesome they were to the point of assuming a mantle of near omniscience when it came to all things MMO.

and yet since then their development focuses and decisions have been all over the place ("we're going to make heroic Deadmines and SFK because they're awesome" \o/ "so we've changed them completely" ... \o excuse me, WTF !?) and the vast majority of the best stuff added to the game have actually been cynical lifts from emerging competitors.

i can't stand many, many decisions they have taken over the direction of the game.

i can't stand the "fans" who know nothing about what lies outside it and so, for example, have no idea how much of the supposed innovation they queue up to suck blizzcock over is actually flat out stolen from other competitors and then passed off to the fans as blizzards (quest tracking came from LOTRO, in world BG and dungeon queuing came from WAR and so on and so on...and lets not even mention customisable appearance, bloody pet battling, farmville and even plants Vs feckin zombies...).

in short "it couldn't happen to a nicer guy" -.-

that's how i feel about WoW/Blizzard now.

in the final analysis they killed the world of warcraft. no one else.
not time or age or anything like that ("loyalty" to prior MMOs is famously long lived).

just really bad decisions made by the developer driven by arrogance, marketing and the quest for a rate of more, more, more that was always unsustainable when they should have been going for building and rewarding player loyalty and playing the long game.

and Cata ? Cata was hilarious; they tried to address the serious underlying problem they have with player retention (the stated aim of that whole idea/expansion) by basically wiping out vast chunks of a world that the players who had actually stuck around intimately loved...

there is a part of me that is dying to see blizz fall flat on its face with "titan" (which ofc will probably reduce WoW to F2P fodder upon release) i won't deny it.

an "original property" from a company that basically doesn't do originality (as opposed to polish) and with metzen "universe building" when he's clearly well past his "one good book" phase and tigole as lead...well...i wouldn't put money on it...but then i'll feely admit my views on the subject and company are coloured to say the least...

deep sadness mixed with anger...so many missed opporchanceities to do better than you did...lost love and visceral disappointment...that's WoW means to me now...i wouldn't even play it if it was free...

VladG:
[quote="kajinking" post="7.407571.17006824"]
Say what you will about WoW, it's still pretty much the best MMO on the market.

...
Presenting opinions as fact.

Seems legit.

OT: "I'm so surprised!" said no one, even diehard fans are going to start getting burnt out by now, its an old game and the cracks are turning into huge gaping holes that have tentacles and pandas in them.

piinyouri:
Seeing Bobby Kotick speak for Blizzard reminds of just where this company is now.

Made me feel a touch ill in my stomach honestly.

Anywho, this game will come to an end, someday.
I'm not in any hurry to see it, it will come in it's own time, which will probably not be any time in the foreseeable future. (Despite this recent dip in subscriptions)

I'm more surprised that Kotick hasn't said remotely controversial in a loooooooong while. Probably the PR has been working hard in the last few years.

OT: Yeah, it was going to see a big decline at some point. Besides, how old is this MMO again? People have been calling the next MMORPG-to-be "the WoW killer". The only thing that will kill WoW is itself.

MetalMonkey74:
Other pay monthly MMOs dont even have 1.5 million subscribers, so its not such a big deal for Blizzard.

The game IS nearly 10 years old now!

People who log on to an internet cafe were counted as subscribers.

Zac Jovanovic:
They are still running on the good faith Blizzard has accumulated over the years.
When I tell someone playing WoW Activision's running things now they are usually like "Holy crap, that explains everything!"

Props to them for not placing the Activision logo on anything WoW related, that was very well played.

Blizzard are no angels.

The Plunk:
It's worth noting that the majority of losses were from the East (especially China), so the complaints that you read on this thread and other English language message boards may not necessarily be representative of the real reason for the huge drop in subscribers.

That could mean anything like 649,000 west to 651,000 east subscribers. So we really need the proper numbers.

FreedomofInformation:

People who log on to an internet cafe were counted as subscribers.

I'm not sure I get your point, you can only log in in an internet cafe if you have an active account, in other words if you are a subscriber. If the internet cafe has an account it lets people log in to its still one subscriber.
Not that the numbers are not heavily bloated, by Recruit a Friend abuse like many other games.

FreedomofInformation:

Blizzard are no angels.

Compared to Activision they are:D

FreedomofInformation:

That could mean anything like 649,000 west to 651,000 east subscribers. So we really need the proper numbers.

Last time I played, majority of the subscribers WERE in the east, so it's only logical that majority of the lost players are in the east too. Still, to say there are no losses in the west would be ridiculous.
I played on EU servers, last time they spammed me with a free week I log in to see 2 real ID friends online at peak time, out of ~170.
I know 3 people IRL that play WoW today and I've known hundreds of them over the years.

Why do people want this game to die?

We humans crave destruction but if it died tommorow, more than half the doomsayers wouldn't notice.

Hell, I'm one of those few people that LIKE the Pandas! Shocking that I have an opinion!

Jimmy T. Malice:

Vhite:
Do we really need a new thread every time WoW subscriber base fluctuates? Number of subscribers is a sine curve with new content patch at every second π. It has large player base so fluctuation is also large, this isn't any major drop, most of them will come back next patch, probably even more so since it's going to be summer by then.

Why are you using a radian scale for this sine wave? Radians suck.

I don't know, that's what we use here for trigonometric functions. But at least I roughly know how much their values are for various angles without memorizing.

I hear everyone's switching over to that new MMO, Sim City.

Let's see if this trend continues downward..

Glaice:
Let's see if this trend continues downward..

It will. Because that's how trends work. And they tend to accelerate. Blizz-Act is basically paying the penalty for choosing to chase casual gamers as opposed to dedicated gamers. I mean seriously, the bigest thing aside from pandas (which in itself sorta shows how much WoW has abandoned it's own mythos, is freaking a pokemon mod.

They can stop it of course but it would mean basically trying to win back those millions that broke out of their lovely skinner box.

kajinking:
Didn't KOR lose that many in like two months after shipping?

I'm not gonna say WOW is dying or anything but releasing expansions seem to not being having as much effect as they used to. Eventually they're going to have to start work on WOW 2 or something similar and honestly I think that would be pretty damn cool since with all the expiernce they've gotten with MMOs imagine how good a WOW 2 could be.

I was going to say no, but after thinking about it a bit, I'd look forward to it if they tried. Since most new MMO keeps trying to copy WoW (at least in terms of end game content being focused on raiding), they're probably the only ones with enough security to make a drastically new game. At least then the world won't be filled with WoW clones (it'll be filled with WoW 2 clones).

Zac Jovanovic:
Last time I played, majority of the subscribers WERE in the east.

wow basically doesn't have subscribers "in the east".

"in the east" the game is mostly paid for by timecards and not the same kind of timecards you can buy in the US and EU that simply grant so many months worth of "subscription" but rather a different nature of timecard that ticks down in real time as you actually play the game and stops ticking down when you log out...much like phonecards (if you can remember those) or a "pay as you go" mobile phone.

any asian timecard sold with time still on it is counted as an active subscription by blizzard.

or to quote one of their numbers press releases:

World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules.

it's all smoke an mirrors...and that becomes increasingly blindingly obvious the more you learn disparate types of payment methods and how they all count towards supposed "subscription" numbers...

blizzard: where pay as you go is called a subscription...

the "Internet Game Room" thing mentioned is even "better"...an internet game room is a setup also used "in the east" where a location will pay for a special WoW license and then be able to give access to and charge people for the time actually played in game and yet, as is detailed above, anyone who logs into WoW via one of these individual location that will be counted as a separate subscriber...

quite simply these multiple and disparate groups numbers should never even be counted together let alone as separate, distinct and "loyal" subscribers.

they also have fully legal account selling & trading btw.

DugMachine:

NortherWolf:

DugMachine:

tl;dr Talents were changed for the better.

No, they really weren't. They were dumbed down and, maybe it's because I've sicne played better games but when I went back to wow for a short stint the talent system just screamed: "LOOK AT ME ! YOU DON'T NEED BRAINS TO FIGURE ME OUT!!!!"

I also like how you ignored the rest of my post. y'know about how I change my talents constantly for PvP depending on team comps. From what I remember I maybe changed talents 2 times in wrath. I got the cookie cutter dps spec and the cookie cutter tank build and never changed them. Because to be viable in endgame PvP or PvE you had to follow the strict builds.

Considering your point was what?
People go the most efficient route, therefore making that route painfully obvious is best?
Word of advice to you friend, the glorious part abotu MMOs is that there are those who'd use the stinks to high heavens build because you know, they're just leveling for fun/rp/social/whatever. You assume EVERYONE is a hardcore pvper or Raider. If that's so I really wonder why I hear lamentations about how difficult it is to get raids together like in the good ol' days now.

NortherWolf:

Considering your point was what?
People go the most efficient route, therefore making that route painfully obvious is best?
Word of advice to you friend, the glorious part abotu MMOs is that there are those who'd use the stinks to high heavens build because you know, they're just leveling for fun/rp/social/whatever. You assume EVERYONE is a hardcore pvper or Raider. If that's so I really wonder why I hear lamentations about how difficult it is to get raids together like in the good ol' days now.

My point was you still choose what's "fun" based on how you want to play. If you want to be a purely stun locking warrior then you can. If you want to be an all out crazy burst fury warrior, you can. The choices are there, and nobody is stopping you. I use warrior so much because it's my main, and arguably one of the more boring classes yet I make it fun.

Now more than ever we have actual spells that give character to classes and not just fodder for number crunchers to go through.

But if you want to be taken seriously and do "hardcore" PvP or raiding you need to follow certain builds. That's true of pretty much any MMO i've tried. There is always a cookie cutter way of doing things to min/max dps, tanking, healing etc. And it will continue to stay that way unless they get rid of talent trees all together, which would then be "too easy!!". If we made all trees viable then it would become pointless. And if it's not talents it's spell rotations, and if it's not that it's gear and stat percentages.

It seems like raiders and PvPers are the majority in WoW at least so I don't see the problem with the way things are. And raids are getting harder and harder to put together because LFR pretty much makes true raiding obsolete for casual players. This is true and I cannot deny it. LFR took a lot of the challenge out of the game and truly if you just want to fuck around and have fun then do LFRs and you can pretty much do any build you want. Most of those fights are not dps races, they are just learning mechanics. So you can choose whatever talents and nobody would bat and eye.

Just don't come into my normal raids as a "dps tank" or "healing dps" because it's just not efficient. My guild has fun when we progress. You can have fun your other ways.

NortherWolf:

elvor0:

NortherWolf:

No, they really weren't. They were dumbed down and, maybe it's because I've sicne played better games but when I went back to wow for a short stint the talent system just screamed: "LOOK AT ME ! YOU DON'T NEED BRAINS TO FIGURE ME OUT!!!!"

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=wow+paladin+ret+spec&aq=f&oq=wow+paladin+ret+spec&aqs=chrome.0.57j0l3.5268j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

There we go, that's how you found out your talent spec now and then, lots of brainpower needed there. Some people crunched the numbers and said what the best spec was in order to perform your job, you would look it up and copy it. Aside from 1 or two points, you didn't deviate because it would gimp your performance. Sure there were lots of places to click, but in the end you had no choice but to choose the same spec as everyone else in order to perform properly.

So? 60 points(or 30 after Cata) was still more chances to make something interesting than 6x3. And you could really make a stinks-to-high-heaven build before. Rather than;
"CHOOSE OPTION A, B OR C!"

Except the old system was still 'CHOOST OPTION A, B OR C', just with more piss-taking options like '+4% damage' or 'necessary spell for your spec otherwise your totally fucked 9 ways from sunday'. Now they've just rolled all the talents you used to take into the actual spellbook, leaving all the old, optional talents in.
In other words, less numbers but the exact same amount of choice. Now I don't have to put points into talents I never used so I could actually use my abilities properly, instead getting a system I can customize on the fly for the situation at hand (and at least now I don't have to fucking spec for Chaos Bolt. That shit was annoying, considering how many useless talents were in the Destruction Tree).

I watched both kung fu panda's shortly before giving pandaria a shot, which pretty much equals to me thinking it as a kung fu panda game now with me liking the movies more then the game. I can never, ever take wow seriously again now. It's a literal laughing stock for me. At least kung fu panda does not have an identity crisis.

Lunar Templar:

1/10 the player base isn't anything to over look, and while I will throw a fucking party celebrating the death of this over glorified bore feast when it's LONG over due death finally comes.

When you throw that party, call me. I'll even bring the pizza. Hell, I'll MAKE the pizza.

And for anyone who thinks I'm being petty...I am. Deal with it.

WoW has done damage to my social gatherings in the years past just because it is so goddamn addictive and time-consuming...and I wasn't even the person playing it. I tried it for maybe a couple of hours.

It's aggravating as hell to arrange for a social gathering, often the only one everyone could have time for during the week, and they'd all just start grinding away doing raids and bitching about how everyone in their raid group sucks.

It's like watching literal insanity unfold before me: where my friends claim to love playing the game, but most of the time they act like they hate it while playing it.

Hell, I still have friends nagging me to join their MMOs, even when I've made it clear those games hold no appeal to me.

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