Anti-Game Critic Says "This Generation Will Give You Massacres"

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sad thing is, there's even more, equally stupid people that think this moron is right.

I personally, can't wait for people like this to fade into the void, tired of hearing about them since none of them have anything new to say and keep siting games that aren't terribly relevant anymore.

Sqrt(-1):
It looks like Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has also co-authored a science fiction novel, where "sentient wooden ships travel beneath canvas sails in a universe that is corrosive to technology." Elves and dwarves are also aliens.

OT: Actually, the source article sums up my reaction pretty nicely:

"The gangs have declared war on our cops," announced Grossman, whose talk was long on emotion, and short on supportive evidence and detailed reasoning.

I have a very strong feeling that this man is a 20th level master troll, whether it's on purpose or due to complete PTSD-induced delusions. And he's getting fed.

"Killology"? Riiiiiiiight...

It just grows tiresome that these people refuse to give up despite the fact that most every study conducted on the matter returns no substantial correlation between games and real-world violence. What ever happened to people just being plain-old crazy? Oh, well I guess that explination is too simple. No, clearly something else - some kind of outside influence - MADE them go nuts and start killing people. Couldn't be that they were mentally disturbed in the first place.

What's that? Adam Lanza's mother knew full well that her child was fucked up in the head? He had a predisposition to random acts of violence? No, no, it wasn't the games damnit!

I've said it once, I'll say it again: if your kid can't tell the difference between fantasy (i.e. games and movies) and reality, then you've got bigger problems then violent games.

More massacres have been attributed to mail services than video games, so I'll be expecting Grossman to try to get mail outlawed any day soon.

For the curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_postal_killings

Bobic:
Ok, while we often refer to these people as nuts, this guy seems to be leading the pack, as is anyone who follows violence reducing advice from a Professor of 'Killology'.

The real question then becomes does his website also offer degrees in Murderonomy and Murderology?

...forget the video games for a moment.

Somewhat ironically, Grossman didn't seem shy about exposing his own predisposition toward violence in the address. He warned that "all hell will break out" when the U.S. pulls out of Afghanistan and said there's only one way to deal with the worst of the nation's enemies. "We cannot deter these people," he said. "All we can do is track them down and kill them."

Please tell me these are two separate thoughts, because if he is conflating these two things, this man is an idiot. I suspect they're separate thoughts, so he's not under the woefully mistaken assumption that the Taliban are among "the worst of this nation's enemies," and is properly noting that there are only certain groups that cannot be deterred, so I have to give him some cred

He pointed out that dozens of children are killed in schools every year by gun-toting maniacs, while not one has died in a fire in more than 50 years.

THIS MAN IS AN IDIOT.

ThingWhatSqueaks:

Bobic:
Ok, while we often refer to these people as nuts, this guy seems to be leading the pack, as is anyone who follows violence reducing advice from a Professor of 'Killology'.

The real question then becomes does his website also offer degrees in Murderonomy and Murderology?

I think those are exclusive programs at Stabworth University, actually.

I'm going out on a limb here and guessing that the "former" qualifier to being a west point psychology professor is there for a good reason; and I don't give credence to "military scientists," especially ones that name their field "killology." Seriously this is ridiculous.

He is wrong, and every generation has massacres.

Going by the article and the thread thus far, this is embarrassing all around, although I suppose it doesn't help that none of Grossman's actual argument was really presented (or dissected) for actual discussion or criticism.

On Killing is an excellent book, at least if you're interested in trying to understand how/why people can/do ever kill other humans.

Having read that and On Combat (a more recent, interesting-but-different book, albeit with more faulty conjecture), the man seems to know and explain a good bit about interpersonal violence and conflict. He's also very clearly not a gamer, as becomes woefully clear in some sections of On Combat. His original argument against video games--at least from an early edition of On Killing--was that, very specifically, arcade-style games in which you used (increasingly) realistic weapons to fire at (increasingly) realistic simulations of other people were dangerous/bad.

I don't think his argument is, itself, bulletproof (ha! see what I did there?), but it is an interesting one, relevant to gamers, and worth discussion and analysis. If nothing else, shouldn't we be aware of the (best) arguments against video games so we can defend their existence and/or reevaluate our culture and entertainment media?

zalithar:
I'm going out on a limb here and guessing that the "former" qualifier to being a west point psychology professor is there for a good reason; and I don't give credence to "military scientists," especially ones that name their field "killology." Seriously this is ridiculous.

Maybe he had to play a lot of Hitman games for his thesis?

So what data is in direct contradiction of his assertions?

I know I know. Correlations don't prove anything, but the burden of proof is on the accuser. The man blindly speaks nonsense.

I love cognitive dissonance.

Oh well. The best way to make an idiot look like an idiot is to let him talk.

What is this guy talking about, I don't even? ...yeah, there are still people out there who think that violent video games turn gamers into killers which baffles my mind. There might be a few exceptions here and there, but the percentage (if there is one), is minimal.

Since playing video games has become so mainstream it tends to happen sometimes that someone will get their parents gun or go buy one and go on a killing spree.

I've killed billions of people in game during my 21 years of video gaming, but never once I thought how would that feel to do it in real life. Too much of a hassle aiming when I can do it easily and more precise with my mouse instead.

"The video games are their trainers."

Problem: Video games are apparently teaching gamers how to murder, somehow.

Problem: Modern realistic shooters are trite and boring.

...Anyone else think we can solve both these problems at once?

Well I feel like killing myself after reading that, if that is actually what he thinks that society is going to turn into.
God it seems like 66% of Americas population is stuck in the past, because all the media shows to everyone else is these types of people. Really hope that the general population who actually are educated about this get a say in the government policies.

Andy Chalk:

"There is a generation of vicious, vicious killers out there," he said. "The videogames are their trainers. They've been playing Grand Theft Auto every spare moment since they were six years old."

So do you blame the animal for hurting someone, or the idiot that kept poking it. if people were responsible about the age classifications and what their kids play then this issue is moot.

Although props to him for actually mentioning that the media has also contributed to this.
But how on earth can he claim this, when his view about pulling out of Afghanistan is to track down and kill them.... hey why don't we send these vicious killers after them, that should get rid of their murder at the drop of the hat tendencies.

I am beginning to wonder if he retired from the army of his own volition considering his statements and coining the term "killology".

Well, for starters, there is no 'dramatic uptick in real-world violence.' Generally, when your theory explains a phenomenon that does not exist, that is a problem with your theory.

Beyond that, the statement that 'this generation will give you massacres' can be made with relative confidence of any generation, because it has been, and continues to be, true of all known generations. Logically, it is roughly as controversial, alarming, and expressive a statement as 'water is wet.' You cannot explain countless generations of consistent massacres with a technology that has only existed for the past several decades.

erttheking:
Dear Mr. Grossman

I kill fake people. You kill real people. Yet I'm the murderer?

Go fuck yourself

That is all

Sincerely, someone with a working brain.

This, humanity is dumb.

As opposed to the massacres provided continuously by other generations.

Everyone knows that postal workers only went postal after exposure to jazz music.

Well, at least some good will come of this.

...All this negative bullcrap about GTA turning people into killers is sure to drum up even more interest in GTA 5!

So what? Arm every teacher, put a security guard front of every door, metal detectors, hounds, barbwire... Hell lets just turn schools in to maximum security prisons.

Also I been playing violent games for my life. I still don't know how to use gun, I got rejected from army (where they teach you to use guns) because or physical handicap and I am pacifist. Yeah - they clearly have corrupted me.

+ Is he trying to say that there are not people with mental issues in every generation? Just in this... And I am quite sure that religious fundamentalism has killed more people in America than Violent games.

Also:
"I protest against violence in my own country; But my own country can go around killing other people just in case they might threaten me"

Also... Whats up with books? It seems like every idiot with an agenda pumps two or three of them. Fact you "can" write a book doesn't mean you "can" write a book.

I hope this man gets badly hurt in gun crossfire by police and some maniac and gets badly handicapped because of it. Just so he could suffer because of the violence he supports.

Eh, i'll give this guy some props for not just blaming video games but ALL violent media...

but that doesn't make him right, SORRY MR Lt. SIR BUT VIOLENCE HAS DROPPED IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS AND THESE MASSACRES ARE CAUSED NOT BY MEDIA BUT BY COMMON DAY SOCIAL ISSUES THAT NO ONE IS WILLING TO SOLVE SIR!

Also six year olds playing violent games?
1) They're M rated games, if what your saying is true, clearly thats the parents fault for buying it not the game's.
2) Violent games about killing are harmless... cause no one dies. Meanwhile you're doing the actual killing, you know... cause you're trained to do it after all...

BOOOOM! RIGHT IN THE CONTRADICTION!

DVS BSTrD:
As opposed to people like you who make their CAREERS out of being vicious killers.

That seems a little harsh. Being in the military does not make someone a vicious killer, and while I disagree with his statement (as do most people here) I still think he has a valid point. I disagree that violent media is the problem, but I do see how it could influence those who are damaged in one way or another and as for, "children playing Grand Theft Auto since they were 6" argument, maybe the finger should be pointed at the parents whom buy the video games rather than the games themselves.

In the end, there will always be violence in the world, it's nature.

I'm actually pretty happy that this guy exists. His obvious stupidity makes him, and by extension his arguments, impossible to take seriously. He's kinda making our position stronger just by existing.

I don't know, man. I've been playing violent videogames since i was like 8 and I'm still super-lame at killing people.

I tried. It was a mess.

"Anti-Anti-Gamer Person replies 'You're a dumbass, Dave'."

Seriously, this era is a death-time low in a world that has had violence in other media for decades. What an idiot! It's like somebody keeps making people say stupid things with drugs or something.

ThingWhatSqueaks:

Bobic:
Ok, while we often refer to these people as nuts, this guy seems to be leading the pack, as is anyone who follows violence reducing advice from a Professor of 'Killology'.

The real question then becomes does his website also offer degrees in Murderonomy and Murderology?

No, but his friend Pillock, or rather, the octopus in Pillock's brain does.
image
Above: Grossman's idea of a professional.

OtherSideofSky:
Well, for starters, there is no 'dramatic uptick in real-world violence.' Generally, when your theory explains a phenomenon that does not exist, that is a problem with your theory.

Beyond that, the statement that 'this generation will give you massacres' can be made with relative confidence of any generation, because it has been, and continues to be, true of all known generations. Logically, it is roughly as controversial, alarming, and expressive a statement as 'water is wet.' You cannot explain countless generations of consistent massacres with a technology that has only existed for the past several decades.

And there goes his entire argument.

Irridium:
This guy is so wrong it's actually kind of funny. In the US, crime rates are the lowest they've ever been since the 1960's, and are still declining.

Indeed, over here in the UK there was also recently a news article saying that violent crime is now at an all time low as well. Sure the US has a problem with school shootings, but i hardly think video games can be blamed considering a lot of the rest of the world plays them and doesnt have the same kind of problems.

SO a military psychiatrist gone mad basically?
despite the fact that real world violence has been falling ever since violent videogames started coming out?
Yeah id rather kill a person online than in a real world.

devotedsniper:
Oh look another one blaming games, yet films and books get no such blame or better yet how about we focus on the real problems?

Loot at the title of his books that the article quotes. he blames all media equally.

Andy Chalk:
He's a former West Point psychology professor, a professor of military science and U.S. Army Ranger, and also claims on his website to be "the founder of a new field of scientific endeavor" known as "killology."

You can't spell 'Killology' without 'lol'!

And this guy's books have inspired me to write an autobiography called '[i]My book: A Book I Wrote Using Words I Wrote[/]', I think he'll like that title.

On topic: I wouldn't listen to a man blaming games for violence when he is part of a group paid to murder people and that recruits and trains young people to do the same. He's probably pissed because he wants to be Master Chief.

But i guess he does not mind that you can buy 6 year old a 0.22 rifle and teach him/her how to shoot a REAL weapon at live animals.
I play violent video games each day almost but if i would get my hands on real fire arm i could not kill anyone because i do not know how to operate it or hit anything. I guess he does not realize that clicking mouse/controller button is wildly different from operating a real weapon.
Also how exactly will violent games make me want to kill anybody. Only times when i have murder in my eyes is when there is long queue for lunch and somebody delays it or overtakes me. Nobody gets between me and my lunch :) .

ChaplainOrion:
I actually did a term paper on violence and mass media this year and had some notes on him.

The killology isn't insane or crazy, it came from a book that he wrote about what techniques the US army has been using to train people to kill. It's now a required reading for Marine officers.

He's still wrong on video games, he obviously isn't in touch with anyone who plays video games and doesn't realize that shooting targets in a game is not the same as shooting targets in real life, while also being indoctrinated to kill.

pretty much spot on. after ww2 the US department of defence found almost all soldiers never actually fired at the enemy and the eventual solution was to make training as realistic as possible. to basically trick the brain and get around its natural aversion to taking a life.

i also remember remember reading an interview with ted bundy before he was executed which basically boiled down to him saying that it was the media he was exposed to growing up that help foster the tendenancies and fantasies he had.

that said howeveri doubt they are going to cause violence as such but people who are predisposed to it will gravitate towards violent media

Andy Chalk:
Dave Grossman says the prevalence of violent videogames in contemporary society has sparked a dramatic uptick in real-world violence.

No... NOPE. I am pretty sure it's just American kids going crazy from being American kids. The rest of the world plays the same games and watches the same movies, but they don't have the insane volume of school shootings we have.

"There is a generation of vicious, vicious killers out there," he said. "The videogames are their trainers. They've been playing Grand Theft Auto every spare moment since they were six years old."

You know what really breeds violence? Increasing poverty and supplying the populous with an over abundance of weapons they don't need; weapons that trickle down into the hands of children more and more every day. There is no reality where that isn't an isn't a 'powder keg'. Kids have always been kind of violent by nature, that's why they enjoy games where they play-kill one another. The difference is now it's almost as easy to get a real gun as it is a Nerf one; at least you would think that watching the news. For fucks sake, one of the last shootings I heard about involving children was a boy who shot his sister, using a gun HIS PARENTS gave him. Movies and games had nothing to do with it.

Well, that's one more person to abandon/meat bait/kill in the face of a zombie outbreak.

people play video games the world over.

has no one pointed that out to the man ?

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