News Room Contributor  Posts: 8060 Joined: 12 Nov 2002     | |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 634 Joined: 13 Jul 2006     | Cue Resident Evil 5-sized race scandal.... |
Paperboy  Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007    | Hardly. The only complaints will come from white people who want to call this "reverse racism". So let me save them all the trouble by voicing their complaints for them. "Why, this is the worst thing since Affirmative Action!" "It's ok for the blacks to have their own football game, but if we made an all-white football game, there'd be an outrage!" "It's ok for blacks to beat up whites, but when whites beat up blacks it's a hate crime! Oh...we're...not that far off topic yet? Sorry, I'll wait." What they fail to realize, of course, as do the people who complain that there is no "white history month" or "white entertainment television" is that nearly all protagonists of video games and other forms of entertainment are of European descent (or modeled after such individuals). You want the all-white game? Go to a game store, close your eyes, spin around, and point. Chances are that you won't land on Shadowman. And not just because that game sucks. And if you do land on a piece of media that features main characters who are non-white, then they're probably either some kind of stereotype, or the whole essence of the game revolves around the mere fact of their non-whiteness. Hardly EVER will you see a game (or movie, or tv show) - especially not in America - where the protagonists are simply of some non-European ethnic look "just because". I tip my hat to games like Mark of Kri, Prey, Shadowman, Mass Effect, and others who dare to cast a non-white protagonist simply because it's "about damn time". As for BCFX, the verdict's still out. If the game is intended to present some content that is somehow UNIQUE to the HBCU football experience, and it's not just a football game featuring only African-American characters, then perhaps it will have some merit. Too bad I can't stand sports games, and really couldn't give less of a damn... Tangential article: http://www.godheval.com/exclusivity.html |
Beat Writer  Posts: 194 Joined: 8 Sep 2006   |
This is true, but it's unfortunately also the case for most White videogame characters. Not that this undermines any of your points, but it is a fairly sad reflection on the quality of video game character and plot design. |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 |
I'd have to disagree. While video game characters are caricatures of real people, like the women Erin Hoffman's talking about in this week's issue, I think the sheer diversity of "white" characters represents the wide range of personalities we see in the real world. Maybe none of the game characters are so rich and complex (or so mundane) as real people, but that's another issue entirely. And furthermore...what IS a "white stereotype"? If there are such things, then hardly anyone takes them seriously, because there are so many other "white" images to offset them. Meanwhile non-white stereotypes often stand as a singular representation of their respective racial or ethnic group. Much like real people who perpetuate those stereotypes. |
News Room Contributor Posts: 8060 Joined: 12 Nov 2002 | I'm not a big fan of things like "black history month." It's just another wedge that preserves a vague and hopelessly outdated mindset of "us and them," rather than letting us all just get on with things. Yes, my ancestors did some terrible things to your ancestors; that's the way we rolled back then. But we're not going to get past that until we get past it. Do we want to live in an egalitarian society where ethnicity and religion really don't matter? Or do we want to keep running our collective guilt and victimhood up the flagpole to remind ourselves how badly we feel about all the things done by the generations that preceded us? To a more relevant point, I don't especially care about BCFx one way or the other. I hate sports games, but the HBCU is apparently a recognized league (varsity? conference? whatever) in the US college system, so they deserve their own sports game just like everyone else. But given the dearth of material available at this point, plus the fact the developer is pretty much a complete unknown, I have real reservations about the quality of the final product. I sure wouldn't be preordering based on what I've seen so far. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 6 Joined: 15 May 2007 | I'm OK with this, but no whining when "Ivy League College Football Experience" comes out. ;-) |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 |
Unfortunately, it didn't end, and has not ended with what "your ancestors did to my ancestors" - the effects are still felt today, but you wouldn't know anything about that, unless it was your personal experience. Which, of course, it never will be. As for Black History Month, in an ideal world it would not need to exist, i.e. if the whole continuum of U.S. history was all-inclusive, and adequately representative of the role of African-American figures. But that is not the case. So until such a time when things truly are "egalitarian", such conventions need to remain in place. I love how quickly "white" people want to "just move on", or for "black" people to "get over it". Let me kill your mother, and tell you to get over it. After all, it's in the past, right? FOH. |
Paperboy Posts: 49 Joined: 10 Sep 2007    |
So lets hear from someone who has shall we. Malygris is very much correct in my opinion. It is just a reverse form of prejudice. My country was in serious trouble when Apartheid ended, we were on the brink of civil war. There were riots for black rights, police, tear gas. The usual stuff. And believe me the rich white people were the last to suffer. We had our first 100% democratic elections in 1994 and Nelson Mandela was elected to power, and he adopted the attitude of 'forgive and forget'. How can you put a price on the sins of the past? you can't. not without repeating them. We don't have black history month, or any museums dedicated to black history. We do have a museum dedicated to Apartheid however. So that we never forget the mistakes of the past. We overcame our racial boundaries in 10 short years. The united states has taken decades, because they have this 'us and them' attitude, this tit for tat state of affairs. You say that that it will never be your personal experience. Neither is it the personal experience of 90% of U.S citizens to live in a separatists government, including the black population. You would have to be over sixty years old to even vaguely remember. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 3 Joined: 19 Sep 2007 | I have to admit I am a middle class white American and I agree with Kemmler0 on this. If we keep this boundry between us it will be just that, between us, and it will not go away. To truely become equal we must make it equal. I'm sorry for what my ancestors may have did to your or any other African American but its time to ditch the victim attitude. Its true that racism still exists today. However its a lot less prevalent then many would have you believe. Godheval says "I love how quickly "white" people want to "just move on", or for "black" people to "get over it". Let me kill your mother, and tell you to get over it. After all, it's in the past, right? FOH." I wonder, was YOUR mother murdered by a white guy because he was racist? How many black people do you know who have been murdered or physicly harmed by a white person? Black people kill other black people, white people kill black people, black people kill white people, and yes even white people kill white people. And for all kinds of reasons. We need to stop automaticly labeling everything as a hate crime when a white person is the person commiting it. Nobodies denying racism doesn't happen. It does, but not to the degree that some would like to believe. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 999 Joined: 22 Aug 2006    | Godheval: Congratulations on staying cool and level-headed on such a potentially touchy subject, I really appreciate the addition of your viewpoint to the deba...
I guess, up until that point, at least. Certainly, lets not mix and match issues. The issue of slavery in the United States is not one that I feel particularly guilty about. To my knowledge, my family tree never partook directly. The best I can offer is that my distant relatives enjoyed an artificially inflated value of the dollar due to the stolen fruits of slave labor hundreds of miles away. Your hyperbole is fun and all, but if you killed my mother, I would be angry at you. I would not likely get over it any time soon. Would I be angry at your offspring? Maybe. Would my offspring be angry at your offspring? Less likely. What about 4 generations distant, do you think they should care? I would hope not. How about prejudice, and discrimination? Those are issues I care about. Those are issues that are relevant right now, in this world, and this discussion. I don't even have to feel guilty about something my ancestors did to feel a need to care. You can certainly argue that slavery is the origin of this particular variety of discrimination, but it is not a common root for all discrimination. Plus, I feel like this particular form of discrimination existed before people started shackling other human beings. I think Malygris was saying that he felt Black History Month helped to preserve a divide that he wants to have closed, and you seem to feel that Black History Month is helping to bridge a divide that still exists. Those are valid and arguable viewpoints. Why the vitriol all of a sudden? |
News Room Contributor Posts: 8060 Joined: 12 Nov 2002 |
This isn't really relevant, I don't think. We're talking about letting go of the lingering bitterness of slavery, which I would guess your mother never directly experienced, much less was killed for. Certainly blacks have suffered discrimination over past generations, but hanging onto those feelings - or worse, dare I say it, seeking them out in nonsense like this or the RE5 thing - accomplishes nothing. My grandmother had a deep-seated hatred of the Japanese. They were, to her, "dirty Japs," right up to her dying day. My grandmother was the nicest, sweetest lady you could ever know, generous to a fault, amazing with the kids, the prototypical perfect grandmother - but she could never forgive Pearl Harbour and the war. Several years before she died, Suzuki opened a plant in her small hometown, and her wheels nearly came off. The dirty Japs were going to come over here, take over everything, buy up all the property, spout their gibberish language and pretend that they didn't do their damnedest to stab us in the back and kill our boys for no good reason. Slanty-eyed bastards. When I first heard this, I was old enough to recognize unattenuated racial hatred when I saw it, but young enough to still look upon my grandmother as an infallible paragon of virtue, so it was a hell of a shock. I couldn't believe my wonderful grandmother could harbour such feelings, much less spout them off that way. My mother explained later that my grandmother had lost her brother in the war and had what you might call "bad feelings" because of it, and that she hoped I understood my grandmother's feelings came as a result of her "unique perspective" and not because there was anything inherently wrong with the Japanese. And of course, I did. But the point is, the Japanese cost me a grandfather I never knew. They stirred up raw, cold hatred in my grandmother, who didn't deserve to feel such things. Would I be out of line to have some of those feelings myself, maybe not as intense but rooted in the same causes? By your way of thinking, maybe I would. Which is an absolutely horrible thing; even as a little sprout, seeing that hatred for the first time, I knew I never wanted to be like that. I'm not willing to have the entirety of my short life moulded around a desire to balance some long-ago wrongs committed against "my people." Why are you?
Yes. How does dividing history serve to bring people together? |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 634 Joined: 13 Jul 2006 | I was right! |
News Room Contributor Posts: 8060 Joined: 12 Nov 2002 | Not like it was much of a tough call there, Bill. |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 | You won't get it. And unfortunately, I'm so burned out on the discussion - not just here - that I won't spend too much more time arguing it. To the fellow who said that South Africa has overcome its racial divide in a mere 10 years, I suspect that you're delusional. I doubt that's possible. To those of you who claim that people should stop adopting a "victim mentality" - I am certain that none of you have actually ever BEEN the victim. It is very easy for someone who has not experienced something to tell others who have, not to feel a certain way about their own experiences. But as easy as it is, it is also categorically invalid. You have no place or right to even make such a statement, and you really have nothing to offer to the discussion, since it is not your issue. The point that I made that everyone seems to have glossed over is that the reason something like Black history month exists is because of the very divide that you all claim to want to eliminate. However, it is not black history month that causes or even sustains the divide. Black history month exists in RESPONSE to the divide. Getting rid of the divide requires some very simple, but clearly very difficult things. First, the acknowledgement by "white" people that racism is still very real, very prevalent, and still plays a very big role in social/political/economic dynamics in this country. "Black" people don't need an apology, and they don't want "white guilt" over what people did in the past. They need an abolishment of white privilege (click here to understand this term) and an overhaul of general racist attitudes - some of which are evident even here on these boards. The thing is, a lot of people only acknowledge racism in its more overt and blatant forms - manifest in the KKK and other hate groups and the like, but it is the institutionalized form of racism that is the most dangerous, and the most effective in sustaining inequality. This is the form that many of you fail to recognize or understand. I've exhausted myself on this kind of conversation, and so rather than repeat everything I've ever said, I'll just point you to some things I've written on the matter. http://www.godheval.com/perceptions-of-racism.html If you are REALLY invested in this discussion, and REALLY care to examine the issues, then read those and get back to me. I don't have much time to check these boards, so feel free to email me at godheval@godheval.com. I am willing to share all parts of the discussion with all who contact me (reply-all) to keep it open. |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 | Another excellent related article (written by a Euro-American woman): White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 634 Joined: 13 Jul 2006 |
I take my victories where I can get 'em. |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 |
Um...yeah. That'd be because the majority of South Africans are "black" or "colored", and so there is no South African history without mentioning the roles of those people. In the U.S. African-Americans have comprised anywhere between 10% and 15% of the population. So, their roles in American history, without special mention, tend to be excluded from the general account. And I thank you not to presume you understand the "black experience" in America, simply because you went through Apartheid. The two are entirely separate phenomena. So you are in no better a position to tell anyone here to "get over it" than a white person. Sorry. |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 |
And Bill, you're a fool. There hasn't been any "race scandal" here, but merely a discussion. You could try engaging in it, or you can continue to sit back and be ignorant and cynical. |
Staff Emeritus  Posts: 1124 Joined: 7 Jul 2006   | Good job keeping this one civil. (e: well, almost) I can't help but think the idea of white privilege is bad way of looking at it, because it implies that white males are above some standard level of quality of life, when in reality the highest quality of life available in a developed nation should be the standard. I think it's best summed up in what McIntosh says in her article, in which she lists the 50 things she considers less-advantaged races unable to take for granted, and in the same breath asks men to "give up" some of their power, or in the case of the article, some of those 50 advantages. In reality, shouldn't everyone be working to ensure everyone has those 50 advantages (casting aside the fact some of her listed advantages are pretty racist), rather than worrying about the people who already do? I always thought one of the underlying goals of equality was to make everyone equally prosperous. As far as the country's racism goes, yeah, it's still alive and well, but it flows both ways. Trust me. I live in the South, and there's still a lot of anger down here on both sides of the racial fence. It's getting better as more kids go to college, but the uneducated classes perpetuate a lot of the problems this place has had since Reconstruction - poor black kids harbor a lot of animosity toward rich white kids, and vice versa. Of course, the further you go up the education and socioeconomic ladders, the less apparent the problems become. |
Staff Emeritus Posts: 1124 Joined: 7 Jul 2006 |
So would you be opposed to a White History Month in South Africa, given that they're a minority and play a smaller role in South African history at large? |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 | Less apparent - which is still probably much different than less prevalent. At the higher socioeconomic levels, the racism is probably more of that institutional variety I mentioned, as opposed to the outward animosity. Anyway, what you say sounds ideal, as far as getting to a point where everyone has those privileges. However, this seems impossible so long as the concept of race itself exists and serves as a boundary between groups of people. Even if it became a wide consensus that race is a bullshit concept, most people would still harbor race-based preconceptions and attitudes, albeit even more quietly. And so, short of abolishing the entire race paradigm, the more feasible alternative is to reduce white privilege. But even that seems highly unlikely. |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 |
If in fact "white" South Africans were under-represented throughout accounts of South African history, such that a white history month was required, then I would be behind it 100%. Absolutely. But somehow I doubt that that's the case. Reason being that there is a huge difference between the two minorities - white South Africans and African-Americans. White South Africans once - and for a long period - held most of the power in the country. This means that they were often the ones writing or regulating how history was recorded. This has never been true for African-Americans. |
Staff Emeritus Posts: 1124 Joined: 7 Jul 2006 |
"Probably" is quite the gotcha, there, though, isn't it? I think we'd agree, however, that the more people from disparate racial and social backgrounds enter college and enjoy better living situations as a result of their education will go a long way in evaporating institutional racism as more and more generations benefit from the civil rights movement.
Honestly, I think it's attainable. All we need is that damn Equal Rights Amendment to come up through Congress again. And I do think race is a bullshit concept, and I'd venture a lot of people in my generation do. But I disagree that penalizing one race/gender combo that's doing well just so everyone's on a level playing field is a good way to go. And I'm a borderline socialist. In regard to your second post, at what point does a Black History Month become unnecessary? When blacks account for 10-15% of an American history curriculum? |
News Room Contributor Posts: 8060 Joined: 12 Nov 2002 | This reminds me of a joke about the Englishman who sees a rich man driving by in his limousine and thinks about how he can't wait until the day he's able to ride in a limousine himself, and the Frenchman who sees the same car drive by and thinks about how he can't wait until the day he can pull that rich fellow out of the car and make him walk like everyone else. You've determined that your way is the only way because you've somehow been directly touched by cold claw of slavery, and that those of us who think there may be better (or at least different) ways to address the issue have invalid opinions by default, because we're not black. You say the elimination of racial underpinnings in day-to-day interactions is impossible as long as race exists as a concept and boundary between people, but aren't you the one maintaining that concept and boundary by insisting on the injustice and hypocrisy of moving on? |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 | Malygris, I have no choice but to ignore you from here on out. You manage to only hear/read what you want out of everything I've had to say, so what point is there in talking to you further? Joe - if it is possible, then great. But I'll have to see it to believe it. Another article you may be interested in: http://www.uwm.edu/%7Egjay/Whiteness/whitepeople.pdf This one, for all of you, touches on a lot of the attitudes expressed here in this forum, such as exempting yourselves from accountability/responsibility for the racialist paradigm. |
Infamous Scribbler Posts: 634 Joined: 13 Jul 2006 |
I'd love to join in, but I'm a blind robot who was only activated last Thursday, and am accordingly incapable of processing complex human emotions. |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 |
And you're also a damned hypocrite. Because while you accuse me of thinking that my view is the only view - something that you'd know is completely untrue if you knew anything about me, or read any of the articles I've posted - you have your own pre-existent view on this matter, and have refused an alternative (my) point of view as having any validity. You are likely so certain that you have heard my arguments before, that you've already prepared your response - the same responses you've undoubtedly made to other people when discussing similar topics. So before you accuse me of being myopic in any way, actually take IN the whole of my argument - which requires some reading - and then comment to me. Until then, I have nothing to say to you. |
Staff Emeritus Posts: 1124 Joined: 7 Jul 2006 | And we were doing so well. Let's keep this friendly, guys, or I'm gonna shut it down. |
Paperboy Posts: 49 Joined: 10 Sep 2007 |
They are more related than you know. Why do you think the term is 'African American'... hmmm. As through all black people come from Africa. Besides i don't remember saying that i understand the 'black experience' in America. I was just offering an alternate view point on the matter. And I thank you not to assume what colour my skin is.... that my friend is racist. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1256 Joined: 13 Jan 2007  | Malygris: By insisting so much on the existence of that great divide between black and white people in America, you fuel that divide. Godheval: I insist on that divide because it exists, and it needs to be erased. Ignoring it won't help. Seriously, I just don't know what foot to dance with. I can't read all of Godheval's evidence. I have no guarantee that it's even correct, unbiased. I'm not American, and I don't know how far Godheval goes with his preach. The problem here is that safe maybe a few countries in northern Europe, I don't know many where minorities benefit from equal unofficial treatment - yeah, equal rights on paper sounds nice and all, but when brought back into the cold reality of our lives, it fails on and on. I think that there will be less fuzz in a couple of centuries, if all goes well, when all ethnical groups will be respectively well represented within governments of healthy countries they would belong to. But right now, just cite me, for example, a rich country where black people comprise the vast majority of a democratic government. Right now, the whites live in the most favoured countries, while all other main ethnical groups, safe the east Asians (Japan, South Korea, etc. but they're still pale skinned in the end), live in countries which are, excuse me the bluntness, true shitholes, either because of the extreme asymetrical spread of wealth, or power under all of its forms. Well, back to the topic at hand, I don't have problems with a kind of black game, if it's not used to fuel bias against whites, or any other people actually. I also understand the "pride of origins" thing, but it's okay as far it's just a piece of culture that gets mixed to the whole, not used to, again, grow that rift between groups even more. I looked at the trailer and, well... it may be me, but I fail to see where the non-black people are in that. It's not about white people only, you know. Maybe there's just too much ruckuss made about that game, and we should wait and see what happens. It's also possible that the game will suck big donkey balls, and no one will care about it three months after it's been on the shelves. :) |
Paperboy Posts: 45 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 |
I didn't say they weren't related. I said that they're not the same, and that your experience with one does not guarantee an understanding of the other. That is what you implied, but if that is not what you meant, then I withdraw that particular comment. As for the term "African-Americans", it is because that perceived group of people have a mostly unknown ancestry - i.e. the particulars of their origins outside of the fact that their ancestors came from somewhere on that continent. There are few other terms that are useful, except in the case of those people who do know for sure where they came from. The term African-American does not necessarily imply a common plight between members of the diaspora in America and continental Africans. Of course there is a common thread, but that term does not imply it. And where did I assume what color your skin is? I said nothing about your skin. It'd be hard for me to be "racist", being as though I completely reject the entire concept of race as invalid.
Arbre, you raise good points, and for the most part I agree with what you're saying. I can assure you that what I "preach" is accurate, both from personal experience, anecdotal evidence, and my extensive research on the subject. In any case, one can only hope that your sense of what will happen in the future is accurate. Time will tell... And with that, I respectfully withdraw from this conversation. Peace. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 1 Joined: 11 Dec 2007 | !BUYERS BEWARE! ORDERED GAME NOV. 30/07 EXPEDITED SHIPPING NEVER RECEVIED IT, I HAVE CALLED FOR A WEEK STRAIGHT GAVE ORDER NUMBER NO ONE KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT ORDER, BUT MONEY HAS BENN TAKEN OUT OF MY ACCOUT. $ 56.98 LOST ,NO GAME OR REFUND PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE |
BANNED  Posts: 681 Joined: 6 Dec 2007   | Typing all in caps does not make your point 'louder', it simply pisses people off. User was banned for: Mom Calls For Ban On Underworld. (Permanent) |
On the Record  Posts: 6739 Joined: 10 Apr 2007  |
It's a little much to compare a grandfather you never knew killed by a country that was really only hostile to 'you' (however you define yourself) for the duration of that war, that lost that war, that was occupied by your country and transformed by your country into a prospering liberal democracy that is only interested in stereotyping Italian plumbers to sell you video games, to hold that up against the legacy of slavery in America as if the two were perfectly comparable? Sure we should all be able to get over everything. However: 1) don't you think it's a bit more understandable for someone to have more difficulty getting over a history of hundreds of years of people thinking that person's skin color makes them less than human, compared to your relative being in basically the one conflict we've had with Japan, which is now one of our closest allies? I mean, we're basically down to them and Poland these days... and 2) do you realize that there might be a difference in that there are *currently* no Japanese people that really have an impact on your life, while there are plenty of racist people--racism that is a legacy of slavery--having an impact on the lives of black people today and for the foreseeable future? I mean, what's the worst thing Japan has done to you recently? Exported a Mobile Suit Gundam game? How can that be compared to the effects of racism in America today? I mean, I'm all for letting the past be the past being of Irish Catholic descent and all, but, don't you see a huge difference between trying to balance a long-ago wrong, and trying to balance a long-ago wrong that has been the source of continuing wrongs for the 150+ years since and will continue to be a source of wrongs in the future?
It's not that Black History Month seeks to divide history--instead it seeks to rectify the mistakenly divided history we're all walking around with in our heads. It is an attempt to show us all that black people were actually doing things of historical consequence in America between the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement, and even before Emancipation. It is not an attempt to divide anything: instead, it is (at least in part) an attempt to combat ignorance, because let's face it: ignorance is fertile ground for racism. The idea is that it might be a little bit harder to think all blacks are lazy and dumb if you've heard of people like Phillis Wheatley and George Washington Carver and all those people. Maybe some kid who's hearing racist things from his uncle who tells him 'those people never did anything for this country' won't be as easily swayed if he hears during Black History Month of the contributions of various black military units, right? |
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Nerjyzed Entertainment Announces Black College Football Experience
Nerjyzed Entertainment has announced its upcoming Black College Football Experience game, an Unreal 3.0-powered "cultural experience" built around black college football.
The game will feature more than 40 teams, bands and mascots from "Historically Black Colleges and Universities," and will include interactive halftime shows, play-by-play commentary and 10 authentic Classics. Nerjyzed has established a five-year exclusive licensing agreement with three HBCU conferences as well as independent schools. Nerjyzed CEO Jacqueline Beauchamp said, "As HBCU alumni and black college football enthusiasts, we're proud that BCFx honors our rich tradition and provides an incredibly fun football game for the whole family to play."
Nerjyzed Entertainment was founded in 2003 to develop PC and console games centered around African American perspectives for the "underserved urban market." The company is also working with the Louisiana state government to help train game developers in the state's college system.
Historically Black Colleges and Universities are post-secondary education institutions established in the United States prior to 1964 to serve the African American community. There are currently 114 such schools in the U.S.
Black College Football Experience is slated for release in fall 2007. A promotional trailer and pre-order link are available on the company's website.
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