Too Human's Dyack Discusses Death of 40-Hour RPGs

Silicon Knights President Denis Dyack claims that we have already seen the end of never-ending role-playing games.

Trying to put the fanboy heat surrounding Too Human behind him, Silicon Knights's Denis Dyack is now focusing on finishing his studio's action role-playing game.

In an interview with Ars Technica, Dyack discussed how growing production values have already killed the concept of large RPGs.

"I think that died five years ago. I don't know of too many people who are making those anymore. From the standpoint of production quality, you really want the optimum experience. Gamers these days have less and less time, so anything that starts going more than 15 hours will probably lose its audience," explained Dyack. "I know the hardcore gamers don't want to hear that, and I'm a hardcore gamer myself, but as you get older and you want to continue to play games, you just can't put in that much time and have time for other games. That's why I stay away from MMOGs."

He continued to say that Silicon Knights chose to design Too Human as an action-RPG hyrbid as opposed to a more traditional RPG once it made the move to the Xbox 360.

"I think when we partnered up with Microsoft and weighed the console's strengths, the idea of Live and the way it works created a backbone that we couldn't ignore," said Dyack. "It was an essential pillar of the game design. The hunting and gathering aspects of the genre lend themselves to a natural online experience. It was a perfect melding; the action and combat elements are deep and the role-playing elements are deep. I think people are really going to do it; it's unique to the 360 and built from the ground up for it. Once people get into it, I think they'll really like it."

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Why do we employ dill-holes like this?

Guys...can we close the RPG forum? It's obviously not being used anymore.

The_root_of_all_evil:
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Why do we employ dill-holes like this?

Guys...can we close the RPG forum? It's obviously not being used anymore.

I don't follow...

Andraste:

The_root_of_all_evil:
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Why do we employ dill-holes like this?

Guys...can we close the RPG forum? It's obviously not being used anymore.

I don't follow...

Well, unless I miss my guess, there's a lot of forum based RPG's here, used regularly.
Balder's Gate/Morrowind/Oblivion/WoW/EQ/Fable/Hellgate:London/Fable are used in most threads, and still played heavily; so how Dyack can claim that 15 hours gaming is an optimal time is beyond me.

15 hours is just getting warmed up, and I'm in no way hardcore.

It's your typical 'well my game doesn't have it, so it must not be trendy anymore'. Too bad 'Too Human' is going to lay a total RPG-fan goose egg. RPGs like that are rubbish anyway, and I can't wait to see what the Fallout hardcores are going to say about 3. All this fear that it's going to be Oblivion with a Fallout gloss, and close to release even the Devs are saying (paraphrasing) 'If you didn't like Oblivion, you probably won't like Fallout 3'. Ouch...

I think I'm pretty much done with the 'Action RPGs', or more like Western RPGs altogether. It's like you can't get a good grinder out of the West anymore. Oh well, time to gear up for
Disgaea 3.

mitsoxfan:
It's your typical 'well my game doesn't have it, so it must not be trendy anymore'. Too bad 'Too Human' is going to lay a total RPG-fan goose egg. RPGs like that are rubbish anyway, and I can't wait to see what the Fallout hardcores are going to say about 3. All this fear that it's going to be Oblivion with a Fallout gloss, and close to release even the Devs are saying (paraphrasing) 'If you didn't like Oblivion, you probably won't like Fallout 3'. Ouch...

I think I'm pretty much done with the 'Action RPGs', or more like Western RPGs altogether. It's like you can't get a good grinder out of the West anymore. Oh well, time to gear up for
Disgaea 3.

Bethesda has been pretty careful with staying away from the Oblivion comparisons. In fact, they've been saying the opposite, in that this will be more like Fallout than Oblivion. Whether or not we believe them is still up for debate, but they definitely say it will be different.

I get so frustrated when I hear designers say that we users don't want long games because we don't have time.

First off, we can always save and play the game in chunks.
Secondly, I really have no problem with short games. I just have a problem paying full price for them. I am not paying $60 for a 10hr game.
Go ahead and make short games. But charge less for them.

And I'm not all that certain that there won't be a backlash. I often hear when a game is super short. Those are games I rent, rather than buy. I don't think I'm the only one.

'scuse me? I'm playing Final Fantasy Tactics A2 right now. I'm just over half way through, admittedly with a LOT of sidequests done (and very few by the "dispatch party" quick approach), and I've clocked up 55 hours. 55 hours and I still don't even know who the central antagonist is! 55 hours and I still haven't met the fourth "title character", Hurdy!
So this guy claiming that 40-hour RPGs are dead? Can go sit on it and spin.

RPGs can still clock 40 hours if there is a lot of side content, and they can stretch out time by requiring any sort of grind (not always something bad). What's a 40 hour game anyway? People play games at different paces. My first run through of KOTOR took me almost 30 hours, whereas my friend took 14.. I know KOTOR is one of those new "shorter" RPGs, but JRPGs can still really stretch out. Blue Dragon has a lot of extra content, and trying to get the achievements is much like trying to burn thistle needles out with lava. Lost Odyssey, likewise, can have a lot of time investment as well. I spent 90 hours on my FFX game trying to get everything, and my mom has put AT LEAST 50 hours per save into basically every RPG released on the PS2 (she's a bit addicted, and she's clocking 60 years old). Between FFX and FFX-2, she's probably spent 600 hours.

Short response, stating the time content of a game is a little silly. People were playing those 40 hour RPGs in 1 sitting (I did a FF7 marathon when I was younger, finished it in 34 hours, one sitting, killing both optional bosses).

Different people are going to play games differently, and any claims that games have to conform to 15 hour kiddie romps is bull, because there will always be those of us who will find the games that take a long time to chew through, and there are plenty of game developers out there to service us.

I sure do hope this guy is blowing smoke. If an RPG has less than 20 hours or more of gameplay, it's not even worth installing. Not when games cost upwards from $50 nowadays. I'm inclined to think he doesn't know what he's talking about, most RPG's published in the last couple years have been 40+ hour games, I don't see what's changed in that time.

Has this dude not heard of World of Warcraft? That game is about 4 years long so far, and it still shows no signs of ending. Seems to be quite popular too.

Really, this is just another developer dude trying to pin his problems on the consumers. It's not that gamers don't want 40+ hour games (I for one certainly do). It's more likely that he spent all the budget on graphics and shiny stuff, rather than creating a truly intricate, 'epic' game narrative, and wants us to think that this is what we've wanted all along.

If you look at the blockbuster RPGs down the years they all have 20 hour+ game time. If you're spending 40 quid on a game with limited or no multiplayer you'll want to get value for money and 15 hours just isn't good enough. Harping on about replay value (as Nintendo did with their short game strategy in the early Gamecube days) just doesn't cut it either.

There's nothing wrong with shorter games, but that must be represented in price.

Bah. Short RPGs are rather insulting.

Many in my opinion do not have a tremendous amount of replay value, and after you beat it in 15 hours you'll only feel disappointed and set it on your shelf to rot.

I don't follow the logic behind this "short rpg's are in" statement, what exactly keeps me from playing a 40-hour game, even if I'm limited to, say, two hours a day? Most games are, after all, blessed with some variation of the save/load feature.
If an rpg is good, it can keep me reined in for pretty much as long as it wishes, and if it is a n enormous epic with a duration better measured in days rather than hours then so be it, as long as it's a good play.

hey, mr dyack show some balls and just tell us that your game is shorter in comparison with other rpgs and stop to tell people this bullls**t.

the last "epic" western rpg i can remember is oblivion. the only thing oblivion suffered from is that it really lacked polish in gameplay, story elements and character design. But i just installed app. 8 GB of Mods yesterday that all take care of this sloppy dev job.

My only real issue is value, as a 15 Hour game with classic RPG pacing isn't worth the money, I really don't MIND classic RPG pacing, but if you're going to make shorter games you''d BETTER be making games with better pacing.

Well, people who hang out on sites like The Escapist are bound to mostly be hardcore, that definately does not me we are the purposed or most tempting demographic. People would make long and complicated RPG's if they profited more then short and simples ones, but they don't.

I'm a lover of all things RPG, but I'm also a realist. There's no way you're going to get Joe Blow from Genericville, Montana to sit down and play an epic RPG for 80 hours and expect him to keep his attention long enough to not wish there were massive boobs at some point in the game to look at. In other words, gaming has picked up such tremendous amount of popularity that we now have to cater to the lowest common denominator. That's business.

That said, coming from Dyack's mouth really makes it sound like his game is going to be balls-to-the-walls terrible.

A 15 hour rpg? Lets figure that one out mathematically shall we? I mean if we play a game for two to three hours a time, that takes five days and the game is complete? Five days for a game that you payed upward of 45-50 dollars for? I highly doubt that that is kosher. Yes I admit that an rpg game can become drawn out and cause less immersion (See Oblivion), but there has to be a certain time frame that you need to meet in order to really grasp the whole concept of a ROLE PLAYING GAME. I admit though that things such as World of Warcraft can become a bit drawn out when there isn't much to keep you going other then grabbing the next best armor. At least a game like Age of Conan, Stalker, or Mass Effect have a continuing storyline to keep you immersed. My final statement is that I don't believe there is a set amount of time needed to create a successful rpg, but with a timespan less then say 30 hours it becomes very difficult.

runtheplacered:
I'm a lover of all things RPG, but I'm also a realist. There's no way you're going to get Joe Blow from Genericville, Montana to sit down and play an epic RPG for 80 hours and expect him to keep his attention long enough to not wish there were massive boobs at some point in the game to look at. In other words, gaming has picked up such tremendous amount of popularity that we now have to cater to the lowest common denominator. That's business.

That said, coming from Dyack's mouth really makes it sound like his game is going to be balls-to-the-walls terrible.

I think you answered my question to why they put boobs in Age of Conan...No just kidding, or maybe your right?

Dyack is an idiot. He is speaking generally about his personal preference, and sounds like he doesn't have too much confidence in Too Human storywise, so he is trying to push it away by talking nonsense. Hasn't this guy played modern RPGs? These games reward you the more time you put into it and by revealing a huge storyline that could possibly be the size of a noval.

Other Western Developers are still putting their resources into role playing games that are long and have staying power. How many people here have replayed Knight of the Old Republic numerous times just to experiance its plot and characters? If Dyack had his way, non of these characters would have been developed and you wouldn't have a big enough reason to replay the game. And I'm not even touching on JRPGs.

An RPG less than 40hrs?
BF2142 lasted over 400hrs for me..it's not even an rpg.

HalfShadow:
If it doesn't last me at least 40 hours, I've wasted time and money.

Agreed.

Well, for RPGs, at least. I'm willing to be more forgiving for shooters and the like, though with multiplayer I can very easily surpass 40 hours on a FPS. And if the game is particularly enjoyable (like Psychonauts, which I'm going through right now) I'm also willing to be forgiving on the length. But for RPGs? No. Keeping the Too Human series at 15 hours seems like a cheap way to ensure that the game is a trilogy so they can get more sales. Screw that, I'd rather you just combined them into one release, thanks.

Short rpgs are really worth the time.
The only problem wit long ones is if the characters or game play are annoying. It's easier to put up with those for shorter ones, but that's about their only advantage.

I really don't agree with this. If you can create a good combat system, interesting charecters, and a engaging storyline, most people will want it to last past 15 hours.

A good example is the Persona games. Last time I checked, I was 56 hours into Persona 4 and still not finished. I am planning on finishing the game because I actually like the characters, it has a unique story line, and the combat doesn't make me want to pull my hair out.

Fuck this guy and the horse he road in on.

It's like videogames is going through the equivalent to the Rolling Stones disco era. Stop catering to the mainstream, and start trying to remember what/who put you in this podium in the first place.

as a fan of long rpgs this sucks

We did all play Too Human right? If that is what we are going to get from now on 15 hours may be about 10 hours too much.

To pick on one of the many problems ... I believe that all the enemies in the game could run past you, run all the way from Hellheim to Val'halla and back to Asgard and still kill you about seventeen times.

Besides, a 15 hour game will only take about four or five years to develop.

OK ... Rant over..

Denis Dyack:
"Gamers these days have less and less time, so anything that starts going more than 15 hours will probably lose its audience"

Hey there Denis. I'm a 19 year old gamer and I am not a gamer with the attention span of a goldfish. Thanks very much for patronising a vast number of your consumer base as twitching idiots who can't deal with story for more than 15 hours. It's really going to convince me to buy products from you in the future.

Denis Dyack:
but as you get older and you want to continue to play games, you just can't put in that much time and have time for other games.

No, you can put in enough time if you make it for you. As with every single pass time, be it gaming, clubbing with friends or shooting clay pidgeons you make time enough for how much you want to do it. If you want to do it a lot you will make that time, if you don't make time I doubt you want to do it as much as you're so earnestly trying to tell me you are.

The wonderful thing about RPGs these days is that most of them have these cool inventions called "Save points." meaning that if you can only play for three hours now, then an hour tomorrow, then 20 minutes the day after and 7 hours over the weekend: You can just save it and pick it up from where you left off.

Heck, a number of games have adopted the "Save anywhere" method which gives you even more flexibility. Lack of personal time=/=lack of interest in 'long' (if you can call 40 hours 'long'- I personally racked up over 100 hours on my first FFX playthrough) RPGs.

Here allow me to translate this article since you guys don't seem to be fluent in Dyakenese.

"We could have put the entire Too Human trilogy on one disc. Then someone pointed out that if we split it into 3 discs we could triple our profits. Brilliant so that is what we did. Then the critics got a hold of it and tore it apart. Not before we managed to pay off a couple sites to give it a glowing review. Then the game hit retail shelves and the fans weren't happy. I knew that would happen but what I didn't expect was them to pull themselves away from thier consoles to go onto the internet, form a community and tear my game to shreds. So now instead of doing what I should have done in the first place and bust my ass making sure Too Human 2 is THE best game ever made. I will instead try and make it look intentional by trying to trick them into believing me when I say things like gameplay isn't the most important part of a game. Or that a game can't be good if it is over 15 hours long. Why those bunch of morons will believe anything I say. I am a superstar afterall."

WOW Thread Necromancy?

Too Human had so much potential, and I even liked it at first, but... the combat was "point in their general direction and they die". Flicking the sticks was interesting but lacked any visceral quality or controllability.

If you want to have a good RPG you need a good story. If you look at all the really good (feel free to replace with that great word "immersive") stories in other mediums they are all bloody long.
If you were to read a book/series of books that only took 15 hrs to read I would think it was too short. Can you really get the feel of an alternate reality/univese/world etc to the extent needed if you were to interact with it in less than 12 hrs? maybe, but it would be nothing compared to finding that you're still learning new things about the world (even if it is just it's Flora and Fauna, or the story behind a lovely little cottage you come across) after 39hrs 59mins.