Relic Says RTS Not A Good Fit For Consoles

Relic Entertainment, the company behind RTS titles like Company of Heroes, Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War and Homeworld, has avoided porting any of its games to consoles because their controllers just aren't suited for the genre.

In an interview with CVG, Mark Noseworthy, producer at Relic, said the company is interested in the idea of bringing the RTS genre to consoles but that its current stable of titles aren't suitable, being designed to take advantage of the mouse/keyboard scheme of the PC. "Relic sees RTS on console as a very interesting proposition but so far, it hasn't been a good fit for the games we have made," he said. "We don't see porting a traditional PC RTS to console as a very good strategy because the controls, by definition, are incompatible with the game design."

Not all is lost for console owners, however; Noseworthy believes console-based RTS titles are possible, they just require a different approach to their design in order to be successful. "To do RTS on console right, you have to develop from the ground up and rethink what it means to have real-time strategy gameplay."

He also implied that Relic's newest title, the upcoming Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War 2, might be a candidate for console conversion in the future. "Dawn of War 2 isn't a traditional RTS and I think it would make a much better candidate for porting than any of our previous games, but there are no such plans right now," he said.

There's still plenty of time for that to change, though. Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War 2 is currently in development and not set to launch until spring 2009, exclusively - so far - for the PC.

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They're right, RTS is the last great PC genre that really shouldn't move from where it is.

Hmm, certain games could work like that on consoles, I'm thinking of the likes of older third person/RTS or FPS/RTS titles such as Battlezone or Sacrifice. But, I've yet to play a good RTS on a console that managed to keep the setup intact.

But then, I've also not tried any of the more recent tries. Actually, the last I ever played was Goblin Commander. It was interesting...if...obscure to say the least.

There are some console RTS games with control schemes that seem to be ok, but they're only ok. Theres just too much to control in an RTS for the limited amount of buttons on a controller, not to mention that drag selection is very important in RTS. They could start releasing straight ports though that require you to have the mouse and keyboard set up for your console though.

They learned this years ago with StarCraft for the N64. Too many units. I can't believe that this console-generation is drumming it back up just because they added a handful more buttons.

One of our last hopes MAY be Halo Wars, being built from the ground up for consoles, but expecting that Microsoft will do something right is like expecting satan to stop harvesting souls.

Cant say enough how true that is. RTS games need to stay on PCs.

Psst.. somebody let the guys at Relic know about the Wii. They might be surprised to find out that it has a point (literally) and click interface.

Kwil:
Psst.. somebody let the guys at Relic know about the Wii. They might be surprised to find out that it has a point (literally) and click interface.

That doesn't help. That would be like trying to play an RTS on the PC with just a mouse, no keyboard. It would work, but it still wouldnt be very good.

Relic Says RTS Not A Good Fit For Consoles

...I'm lost for words. I don't have enough sarcasm to cover something like this.

KSarty:

Kwil:
Psst.. somebody let the guys at Relic know about the Wii. They might be surprised to find out that it has a point (literally) and click interface.

That doesn't help. That would be like trying to play an RTS on the PC with just a mouse, no keyboard. It would work, but it still wouldnt be very good.

Actually...that might not be so far-fetched.

Enter...the command wheel! Left click to select. Right click to bring up a wheel with a list of commands. There. Now apply that to your controller or Wiimote and add some scrolling functionality and you're there, I think...

Wii would be the best bet... it is possible to play an RTS with only the mouse, simplify the control-set a bit and the other buttons on the wiimote might have you covered.

Not that I really care, the PC is my games machine of choice anyway.

GothmogII:

KSarty:

Kwil:
Psst.. somebody let the guys at Relic know about the Wii. They might be surprised to find out that it has a point (literally) and click interface.

That doesn't help. That would be like trying to play an RTS on the PC with just a mouse, no keyboard. It would work, but it still wouldnt be very good.

Actually...that might not be so far-fetched.

Enter...the command wheel! Left click to select. Right click to bring up a wheel with a list of commands. There. Now apply that to your controller or Wiimote and add some scrolling functionality and you're there, I think...

Stuff like that is the problem though. You can always get it to work on console, just nowhere near as well as a mouse/keyboard setup.

Following your example of the command wheel: If I wanted to create a control group I would have to drag select the units and bring up the command wheel(which would cover part of the screen) and find the command for a control group, which might have a sub-menu pertaining to what number you want that control group to be. On PC you would have to drag select and hit ctrl+#(# being whatever number you want the control group to be). And that doesn't even bring up how you would select a control group on console. Would you have to bring up the command wheel again? Whereas in PC you just hit the number once to select them and double-tap it to select them and jump to their map position?

You just cant do it as efficiently on console as you can on PC.

Relic Says RTS Not A Good Fit For Consoles

No, they don't. Sheesh.

Noseworthy says you can't take an RTS from a PC and successfully port it to a console; because a PC RTS will be based around the mouse+keyboard control scheme which is ill-suited to controllers. He says that a console RTS has to be built from the ground up to account for the control mechanism of the platform... not that console RTSes are teh suX0rs.

I shall now put down my wildly-waving cane and cease muttering about these addle-pated whipper-snappers writing headlines these days.

-- Steve

edited to add: I suppose I shouldn't just gripe... I'll propose a headline that's much closer and only six characters longer:

Relic Says Its RTSes Not A Good Fit For Consoles

Wasn't RTS originally born on the consoles--specifically with Herzog Zwei for the Genesis? Most PC RTSes won't work when converted to consoles, but there is room for controller-driven RTS-styled games. Pikmin, for example, seems like it would fit the bill. But when the RTS gameplay style depends on quickly and precisely moving an arrow back and forth across a screen, controllers can't anywhere come near to matching a mouse.

gnaw:
Wasn't RTS originally born on the consoles--specifically with Herzog Zwei for the Genesis? Most PC RTSes won't work when converted to consoles, but there is room for controller-driven RTS-styled games. Pikmin, for example, seems like it would fit the bill. But when the RTS gameplay style depends on quickly and precisely moving an arrow back and forth across a screen, controllers can't anywhere come near to matching a mouse.

There were definitely some old console RTS games, but I don't know what the actual first RTS was developed for. I do know that what we currently think of as an RTS really started with Dune II by Westwood studios back in 1992. Blizzard's original Warcraft and Westwood's own C&C series followed the basic formula of Dune II.

...HOW long did it take them to realize this?!

Spleeni:
...HOW long did it take them to realize this?!

Yes, as if we didn't know this already.

RTSs could be done on consoles, but even if there were some good RTSs on consoles, I'd still prefer them on PCs anyway.

PedroSteckecilo:
They're right, RTS is the last great PC genre that really shouldn't move from where it is.

That's a little bit of "PC gamer is the uber race" talk and I don't know if you are being ironic or are actually one of those idiot pieces of metaphorical genitalia.

I agree that RTS games are not a strong fit for consoles. But then the RTS train has passed, last Relic guy I talked to on the subject made a little missile and explosion sound.

Given that, the memory / processing issues with RTS play that is still not exactly compatible with console technology (maybe next gen) and the RTS control conventions which are not easily transferred to the console controller. I doubt Relic is the company to be able to bring the genre to a new venue.

I agree with the Relic Company. RTS is not made for the console. The only and propaly way to play an RTS - game is on the computer!

Relics:
I agree with the Relic Company. RTS is not made for the console. The only and propaly way to play an RTS - game is on the computer!

Eleven years ago everyone was saying the same about FPSes, and then Rare proved them wrong. I'd be careful about making those predictions.

-- Steve

Console RTSs are hard to play, I prefer the mouse and keyboard. Tis the best.

Ya know, I heard Creative Assembly is making a console specific RTS with a bunch of robots and shit.

THESE ARE THE GUYS WHO MAKE TOTAL WAR! They aren't going to port Empire Total War to consoles, they'll make a separate console specific game.

Obviously they took Relic's advice, Sid Meier's, Ensemble's, etc.

The controller isn't the only reason. I've tried Battle for Middle Earth II and Universe at War on the Xbox 360. The frame rates got so choppy that I lost farms and cities before I could get to them. I lost track of my soldiers and couldn't get them to where they needed to be in time because scrolling the map was like a slide show. If they are going to keep porting RTS games to consoles, they need to either tame down the graphics from the get go or better yet, let players decide for themselves in a menu what graphics settings to turn down. I for one can play an RTS very well without shadows or particle effects or realistic water. It made my "next gen" console look like my wife's computer did before I disabled the onboard video card and upgraded her to an nVidia 8800. Other 3-D games play smoothly on my Xbox, what gives with these RTS games?

The little Nintendo DS on the other hand, works great for RTS and TTS (turn based)games. I play Warhammer just fine on the DS. It's pretty fun. The Lord of the Rings TTS game for the Gameboy Advance is too. Hey Nintendo, more turn based strategy games for the DS please!

Relic wouldn't know how to make a console game more than they'd know how to dig a ditch. They'd take 2 years to figure out they needed a shovel rather than spoons. The dirt hole would cost 13 million dollars, be 3 feet wide, of varied terrain, 2 inches deep, and be surrounded by an array of underutilized talent.

Let's face it real-time strategy games can go anywhere, it just takes the right people to make them.

RTS is DEAD at Relic. Sad, but true.

bob-o:
Relic wouldn't know how to make a console game more than they'd know how to dig a ditch. They'd take 2 years to figure out they needed a shovel rather than spoons. The dirt hole would cost 13 million dollars, be 3 feet wide, of varied terrain, 2 inches deep, and be surrounded by an array of underutilized talent.

Let's face it real-time strategy games can go anywhere, it just takes the right people to make them.

RTS is DEAD at Relic. Sad, but true.

What are you smoking? Company of Heroes is one of the best, most realistic, in depth RTS games ever made, and you're talking about the people responsible for Homeworld and Dawn of War. They know what they are doing when it comes to RTS. And they're not talking about making console games, they're talking about porting their PC games to a console.

dukethepcdr:
what gives with these RTS games?

The sheer scale of them, it's why the maps are small and the unit cap is low, because too much going on makes the 360 RROD.

Yet, controls are a perfect "scapegoat" as well, gets less angry letters saying "OMFG YOU SUCK AT OPTIMIZATION!"

I can't believe Christ Taylor even thought putting supreme commander on 360 was a good idea.

True, RTS is horrible on pads. Every RTS I've played on consle and PC has always been better on PC, and a complete waste of time on consle! This is not including Command and Conquer Red Alert - Retaliation, as you could get a playstation mouse what rocked.

bob-o:
Relic wouldn't know how to make a console game more than they'd know how to dig a ditch. They'd take 2 years to figure out they needed a shovel rather than spoons. The dirt hole would cost 13 million dollars, be 3 feet wide, of varied terrain, 2 inches deep, and be surrounded by an array of underutilized talent.

Let's face it real-time strategy games can go anywhere, it just takes the right people to make them.

RTS is DEAD at Relic. Sad, but true.

What the hell!? Have you ever played company of heroes!? That IS the best RTS going! I don't think relic has ever let me down in any of their games! I have only played a few, probably as I didn't know they existed until the opening sequence of company of heroes, but still!

While I agree that RTS blows on consoles, I do think it would be possible to make a decent one for the Wii. I think some of the gameplay mechanics would have to be retooled (i.e. current RTS incarnations would be unhappy ports - start from the ground up), and it might be best in the long run to consider developing (yet another) doo-dad add-on to clip into the Wiimote. But buying doo-dads for me is unfulfilling so far, and it's going to be a tough sell unless you practically give it away in the box. Besides the 'chuck and the controller clippies, there hasn't been a single new doo-dad for the Wii that I think is worth the money. (I don't have the WiiFit yet, it might be that the board is as nifty as they say.) So if one was to combine ideas - have a control wheel AND a new add-on that would act in place of a keyboard - then RTS might be a viable option. Also, while the buttons on the Wiimote are nowhere near as complex as keyboard options, the amount of fiddling one *can* do with all those buttons is staggering.
A, B, 1, 2, U, D, L, R, +, -
cOmbOs!
A:B, A:1, A:2, A:U, A:D, A:L, A:R, A:+, A:-
B:1, B:2, B:U, B:D, B:L, B:R, B:+, B:-
1:2, 1:U, 1:D, 1:L, 1:R, 1:+, 1:-
2:U, 2:D, 2:L, 2:R, 2:+, 2:-
U:+, U:-, D:+, D:-, L:+, L:-, R:+, R:-
+:-

If I counted correctly, that's already 49 different control options. Even the 'chuck brings another control stick and two more buttons into play. Also, there be more ways than that to control a dude or group of dudes. Or dudette(s). Homies. Whatever.

Having a keyboard just makes all the controls easier to remember... well, if you're used to that kind of thing. I think the biggest sell Nintendo would have to face is making an add-on for the Wiimote more useful than *1* game... although plenty of 'tards (like me) are buying those silly steering wheel things. (They make it HARDER to drive! D8 )
(Nevermind that Mario-Wiikart cheats anyway... =P)

Yes they did. But I stay at my point of view, until some company proves that it's going to be possible to play RTS - game on the XBOX or PS3. Sorry for the bad grammar, it's beacuse I'm tired.