PC Gaming Alliance Talks PC/Console Crossover

 Pages 1 2 NEXT
 

PC Gaming Alliance Talks PC/Console Crossover

image

PC Gaming Alliance President Randy Stude recently spoke out about the future of gaming on the PC, how PCs and consoles may someday intersect and the fallacies of blaming all your problems on piracy.

In a new interview posted at GamePolitics, Stude made some interesting predictions about the future of gaming, not least of which is a crossover with consoles that will see future PCs include console compatibility. "The guts of every console should tell you that the capability is there for the PC to act as the central point for all the consoles," he said. "If you bought a PC and as part of that equation you said, Okay, when you're on the phone with Dell, "Hey, Dell, on this PC, this new notebook I'm buying, can you make sure it has the PlayStation 4 option built into it?"

"Why shouldn't that be the case? [Sony is] certainly not making any money on the hardware," he continued. "I mean, can't they create a stable enough environment to specify that if Dell's going to sell that notebook and say that it's PlayStation 4 [compatible] that it must have certain ingredients and it must meet certain criteria? Absolutely they could do that. Are they going to do it? I don't know. I predict that they will. I predict that all of the console makers over time will recognize that it's too expensive to develop the proprietary solution and recognize the value of collapsing back on the PC as a ubiquitous platform."

Stude also called the idea of publishers abandoning the PC platform because of piracy as "ridiculous," saying, "If someone wants to leave the PC market, we'll miss you. We'll watch with admiration as your titles ship in a diluted fashion without a whole lot of game play innovation, at least until you copy the innovation that occurs on the PC. Well find the great games on PC and we'll play those."

"I've heard people say, well, we're just not going to publish this title for PC gaming because it's in a state of disarray or because of piracy or whatever," he added. "Okay, fine. Do what you want. If you're not going to release the Tom Clancy EndWar game for PC day and date, when you do release it for PC don't be surprised if everyone's bought a different game instead. They all bought C&C Red Alert 3 instead of EndWar. You blew it."

He admitted that the complexities of the "PC ecosystem" sometimes make it difficult for console developers to properly port their games to the PC, and said that one of the goals of the PCGA is to establish a "minimum starting point" for PC gaming. "We want the hardware OEMs and the game publishers to support that guideline and to advocate the experience of gaming on the PC at a stable starting point, something will last a couple years and then move on to the next [standard]," he said. He also noted that the PCGA is discussing a logo for gaming-ready PCs, saying, "If there needs to be a logo then we'll probably have a logo, but we haven't made that determination yet."

GamePolitics' full interview with Randy Stude, touching on other topics including the impact of Windows Vista on gaming and the effort to push PC gamers to consoles, can be read here.

Permalink

I predict that all of the console makers over time will recognize that it's too expensive to develop the proprietary solution and recognize the value of collapsing back on the PC as a ubiquitous platform."

Tell that to Nintendo...

I'm not convinced. Why would anyone need to "make sure it has the PlayStation 4 option built into it" when most console games are poor compared to the PC alternatives.

Computers... with consoles built in... I like this future...

...aren't consoles, in a sense, already PCs?

They are in a way as they are built on optimized versions of older computer hardware. Though I think the line is a little blurred because of the different programming languages that are usually console specific.

I like what Randy Stude is saying, but I think it's a bit of a fairy tale. I know people on both parts of the computer and console divide and many would not accept that the other is a viable gaming platform (myself belonging to the former group!). It would be nice at some point in the future for consoles and computers to merge, however I think that would require an Apple-esque totalitarian control over hardware and software to work. As the main reason for consoles performance is that developers get the time to learn the hardware inside, out and learn how to squeeze every little bit of power out of it. Whereas they do not get that luxury with computers, as by the time you've spent 6 months learning to develop for the latest graphics cards, a plethora of new ones will have arrived on the market.

Hehe. Soon pc's can play console games too but consoles stil won't be able to play pc games. Victory draws near my mouse&keyboard brethren!

orannis62:
...aren't consoles, in a sense, already PCs?

Isn't the PC already a console? :)

Console just means platform, you know...

Great--you mean I'll have to buy hardware that's been approved by Microsoft to play games on a computer? Yeah, I'm sure they won't charge a premium for that!

Can't wait to get told that the solution to my problems running games on the computer I built myself for half the price is that I should have bought a Dell X720 Series computer instead.

"It sort of starts to indoctrinate - especially the younger gamers who are much more familiar with consoles than they are with PC. Gaming on the PC is an awesome experience. If they just sat down and figured it out it's actually a lot easier to control and a lot easier to play - especially the action games - than it is on console."

What utter crap. Two of the earliest games I had for my PC were Railroad Tycoon and Doom. I'm still playing Railroad Tycoon 3, Civ 4, Europa Universalis 2, WarCraft 3, etc. on my computer. I haven't played an FPS on my computer since Hexen. I also quickly deleted the demo for EndWar from my console.

It's not just indoctrination--it's the fact that for a lot of people, some games are more fun on a console, and some are more fun on a computer. If anything is killing computer gaming, that's what is killing computer gaming. Companies like Stardock and Valve are doing well on the computer, because they understand why a person chooses to play on a computer over a console--because they like complex games that need a keyboard like Stardock realizes, or they like to mod their games like Valve realizes. Or they split their products like Civilization: make one game for the console, and another for the computer. I have no desire whatsoever to play the console version of Civ; however, looking at the sales, it seems plenty of people did.

The PC world needs to stop blaming the customer, and start catering to them. Everytime I turn around, Paradox is shipping a new expansion to EU or Strategy First is shipping games like 1914 Shells Of Fury.

No, that's not a joke--there is a game called 1914: Shells of Fury! http://www.strategyfirst.com/en/games/ShellsOfFury/

This is one of the bullet points on the page: "Four different German Submarine boats to choose from: Armada-Petrolboat, Armada-Dieselboat, UB-I and UC-II." You can't make that kind of thing up.

What PC gaming needs is to get rid of all the fundamentalists who think converting people to the mouse and keyboard is what PC gaming needs

It's not--the FPS and Third Person Shooter and Adventure/Action and Platforming genres are console genres. Period. The majority of people prefer those games with a gamepad whether their first console was a PS3 or an Atari 2600, and there was a gap in their--okay, my--console ownership between the Sega Genesis and the PS2 they got to play God of War.

What PC gaming needs is an Alliance that realizes that the strengths of PC gaming are the mod scene, people who want to play complex simulation games, RTS people (and understand that RTSes aren't really all that complex), and all those little niches, like the people who will be enticed into playing a game knowing that not only is the Armada-Petrolboat included but the Armada-DIESELBOAT too, or that the latest expansion adds 50 years to the timeline of Europa Universalis III and players can see their empires evolve from King Henry IV's coronation in 1399 to the end of the Hundred Years' War.

Dectilon:

orannis62:
...aren't consoles, in a sense, already PCs?

Isn't the PC already a console? :)

Console just means platform, you know...

Aha!
You just blew some minds!
:D

Haha oh this joke piece made me laugh. At first I thought it was serious but when he said they were calling Dell that made me realize he was making a joke.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
*Snip*
It's not--the FPS and Third Person Shooter and Adventure/Action and Platforming genres are console genres. Period. The majority of people prefer those games with a gamepad whether their first console was a PS3 or an Atari 2600, and there was a gap in their--okay, my--console ownership between the Sega Genesis and the PS2 they got to play God of War.
*Snip*

You're a moron. FPS games do not belong on consoles. They're horrifically imbalanced to the player giving him the ability to soak up insane damage and autoaim. No skill or sense of accomplishment whatsoever. Where as with the PC, most FPS games, you get hit maybe three or four times on the normal difficulty settings or one or two on the hard settings and you're dead. When you fight your way through a dozen or several foes each as capable as killing you as you are them, the sense of satisfaction is immense. Don't you dare assume otherwise. FPS games will always be a PC genre far more than anything.

Through virtualization, it would be doable to build the console as just a software shell. It would be interesting to see and be all shades of awesome.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

*chop*
What PC gaming needs is to get rid of all the fundamentalists who think converting people to the mouse and keyboard is what PC gaming needs

It's not--the FPS and Third Person Shooter and Adventure/Action and Platforming genres are console genres. Period. The majority of people prefer those games with a gamepad whether their first console was a PS3 or an Atari 2600, and there was a gap in their--okay, my--console ownership between the Sega Genesis and the PS2 they got to play God of War.
*chop*

I agree with Chaos Marine there. FPS were originally developed for PC (Wolfenshtine and Doom as an example) and console ports usually have some handicap. 3rd Person shooters can be debated, but when it comes to action-adventure and platformers you are right, those are meant for controller.

EX: Half Life (original) on console was not as satisfying as on PC due to auto aim, and it was nearly impossible to make precise shots without it. Halo2 for PC had 3 or 4 preset sensitivity setting for a mouse which partially killed the game for me due to the fact that even on highest setting it took me way more time and effort to target something or just turn around.

Chaos Marine:

You're a moron. Don't you dare assume otherwise. FPS games will always be a PC genre far more than anything.

Did I anger the gods of the PC or something? I should not dare? My my--I did not know the Flying IDE Cable Monster might smite me for speaking such blasphemy.

RedMenace:

Cheeze_Pavilion:

*chop*
What PC gaming needs is to get rid of all the fundamentalists who think converting people to the mouse and keyboard is what PC gaming needs

It's not--the FPS and Third Person Shooter and Adventure/Action and Platforming genres are console genres. Period. The majority of people prefer those games with a gamepad whether their first console was a PS3 or an Atari 2600, and there was a gap in their--okay, my--console ownership between the Sega Genesis and the PS2 they got to play God of War.
*chop*

I agree with Chaos Marine there.

You realize that you can agree with both of us, don't you? I was making a descriptive argument ("the FPS...The majority of people prefer those games with a gamepad") while he was making a prescriptive argument ("FPS games do not belong on consoles")

Maybe you two can use your wonderful gaming computers to look up what those two words--prescriptive vs. descriptive--mean so you can criticize what I say on the basis of what I've actually said, and not because your PC Defense Force begins to assemble anytime someone makes a non-pejorative connection between consoles and FPSes.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

*snip*
You realize that you can agree with both of us, don't you? I was making a descriptive argument ("the FPS...The majority of people prefer those games with a gamepad") while he was making a prescriptive argument ("FPS games do not belong on consoles")

Maybe you two can use your wonderful gaming computers to look up what those two words--prescriptive vs. descriptive--mean so you can criticize what I say on the basis of what I've actually said, and not because your PC Defense Force begins to assemble anytime someone makes a non-pejorative connection between consoles and FPSes.

Sigh, ok, we all can agree that my replys lack some finesse of those made by the native speakers of the mighty English. I was just trying to say that I cant agree with your statement, that FPS are better with a controller. As you can see from the examples of my experience with FPS ports which I stated in the previous post - I found that aiming with a controller is less responsive and games usually have to resort to handicaps in order to stabilize the gameplay. This is what I was agreeing with. Not the statement that FPS do not belong on consoles.

PS: Hope that clears everything up, lets not turn it into another PC vs Console thread. After all, all we have is our own opinions to go on.

I disagree. FPS games will always be a PC genre, just because a mediocre game like the Halo series was a console success doesn't mean it's better on a console than a PC. Comparatively speaking, the grade of FPS games on the PC often exceeds the scope of console games though I will admit that console FPS games are closing the gap in everything but controls. After playing UT3 on the PS3 and having it for the PC myself, playing the UT3 was horrifically slow in comparison. In the PC version, you predict and fire and make your kill within a literal split second or you're as dead as dirt. In the PS3 version, you can take a full second to consider what weapon to use before letting the auto aim do most of the work for you.

That is not how FPS games are meant to be played. Playing with demi-god mode (You can still die after all, adding in several stone of lead to your body weight of course)and letting the auto aim do all the work. But I repeat myself. But it bears repeating. FPS games are a PC market. Always has been and always will be.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
It's not--the FPS and Third Person Shooter and Adventure/Action and Platforming genres are console genres. Period. The majority of people prefer those games with a gamepad whether their first console was a PS3 or an Atari 2600, and there was a gap in their--okay, my--console ownership between the Sega Genesis and the PS2 they got to play God of War.

You disappoint me Cheeze. I've always pegged you as an intelligent poster, but claiming FPS as a console genre? Tisk, tisk.

Most people like playing FPS on a gamepad because that's all they have ever played with. I'd say that 80-90% of most people who have played FPS on consoles have never even touched an FPS on a computer. How can they possibly have a preference when they have only tried one of the two options?

FPS will always remain a PC genre due to the more natural and fluid controls of the mouse over the crappy analog. Not to mention, mods have always been more linked to the FPS genre more than any other types of games have. But despite this fact, you argue that we need to focus on the modability of games on PC (a large majority have been done on FPS), but then argue that FPS is a console genre.

Way to fail buddy.

Note: I'm not suggesting that FPS shouldn't be played on consoles, just that the strengths of the PC lend themselves to the FPS genre more than the strengths of consoles do. Kind of like how the analog lends itself more to racing games than mouse/keyboard does, but you can still enjoy a racing game on your PC.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

*chop*
What PC gaming needs is to get rid of all the fundamentalists who think converting people to the mouse and keyboard is what PC gaming needs

It's not--the FPS and Third Person Shooter and Adventure/Action and Platforming genres are console genres. Period. The majority of people prefer those games with a gamepad whether their first console was a PS3 or an Atari 2600, and there was a gap in their--okay, my--console ownership between the Sega Genesis and the PS2 they got to play God of War.
*chop*

What? The very first game in a first-person perspective was either Maze War or Spasim, and they sure as hell weren't available on any consumer-friendly hardware. The first FPS games were on PCs, and look at how badly the consoles took Doom when they got source ports. For the first twenty years of their existence, first-person games were almost exclusive to either minicomputers or high-end personal computers, played with keyboards. Unless you've got another definition of "console" to me, then you're talking nonsense.

The console-in-a-PC thing has already been done:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_Mega_PC

...albeit not very well.

RedMenace:
I was just trying to say that I cant agree with your statement, that FPS are better with a controller.

Chaos Marine:
I disagree. FPS games will always be a PC genre, just because a mediocre game like the Halo series was a console success doesn't mean it's better on a console than a PC.

RAKtheUndead:

What? The very first game in a first-person perspective was either Maze War or Spasim, and they sure as hell weren't available on any consumer-friendly hardware.

Joeshie:

FPS will always remain a PC genre due to the more natural and fluid controls of the mouse over the crappy analog.

You are exactly the kind of people I was thinking of when I wrote:

What PC gaming needs is to get rid of all the fundamentalists who think converting people to the mouse and keyboard is what PC gaming needs

Civ and EU and Sins are all doing very well. PC gaming is doing just fine--it's just not able to compete in the genres you want it to compete in. The *worst* thing the PC world can do is look on this as the moral crusade people like you four do. That's only going to lead to them throwing away money. I can't stress the realism of Stardock here enough, about "looking at the market as a business not about trying to be "cool".":
http://draginol.joeuser.com/article/303512/Piracy_PC_Gaming

Most people like playing FPS on a gamepad because that's all they have ever played with. I'd say that 80-90% of most people who have played FPS on consoles have never even touched an FPS on a computer. How can they possibly have a preference when they have only tried one of the two options?

Because there's no good reason to think that the majority of them will probably feel the same way me and the majority of my friends, who were all playing games on the computer before even DOOM came out--that it's just more fun on a console.

Not to mention, mods have always been more linked to the FPS genre more than any other types of games have.

Bullshit. The most modable game I have ever encountered was UMS II. I remember designing two entire sets of armed forces using that game.

In any case, my point there was that to the extent that computers have an advantage IN THE MARKETPLACE over consoles (not in your hearts and personal opinions) it is that they offer mods.

Then again, plenty of people bought Fallout 3 on the PC for access to the GECK, so, mods are really an across the board advantage. The issue is that the people interested in mods overlap with the people interested in FPSes to a much lesser extent than they did before, because all the new FPS fans are, I think, not the type to mod.

If anything, the FPS has probably seen the biggest decline in the percentage of fans interested in modding, because the FPS has grown so wildly in popularity among the kind of people who just aren't the type to know how to install a mod, let alone tinker with it themselves.

You really think you're going to get the average Halo playing Bro to care about the gravity gun and hitboxes and Garry's Mod?

Do you even *want* to?

This is probably a good time to mention that as of the end of November, Garry's Mod has reportedly earned something just north of $3.1 million. I'd say mods are alive and well among FPS fans on the PC.

And I guess you'll have to add me to your growing list of "PC fundamentalists" because your comment about shooters being a console genre is just stunningly wrong. Controllers lack the speed and precision of a mouse, and without the aiming assistance that most console shooters have (and PC shooters do not) console gamers would suffer a virtually immeasurable disadvantage.

I see your point (I think): The average sideways-hat-wearing slackjaw prefers the controller to a mouse/keyboard combo despite its inherent disadvantages, because it's less intimidating. But that in no way means it's a better setup, it just means that the effort to popularize gaming has gone entirely into consoles. Insisting that FPSs are "console genres" is way off the mark.

You can't argue that a console is better because of controllers. That can't even come into the argument, because PCs have both keyboard and mouse, and controller setups, whereas you can only have a controller with consoles.

Oh dear...and we've decended into PC vs Console fanboyism.
Personally I don't particularly mind what format I'm playing on, both have their advantages and disadvantages. One thing I will say is that I tend to buy more games for the PC because they are often significantly cheaper. I don't understand how a machine that was built only for gaming (consoles) are so much more expensive to buy games for.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
*Snip*

What PC gaming needs is to get rid of all the fundamentalists who think converting people to the mouse and keyboard is what PC gaming needs

I've been playing games on the PC (Coming from the Megadrive or Genesis to Americans to the PC) and the very first FPS game I played was Zero Tolerance. I thought it was awesome. I then played Doom on my very first PC. A Dell Dimension L500. After that, I swore never again and have been building my gaming machines ever since. Zero Tolerance and Doom are very alike and I didn't really consider them that different. Then I played Quake and I got into the Hexen series. By Hades, after playing with a mouse, realising how awesome it was, I couldn't get over how great it felt to be able to look around and blow monsters and humans apart with near pin point accuracy. I went back to playing Zero Tolerance during a visit home to my grandparents (I took the Megadrive since I couldn't lug the PC with me) and after about ten minutes I just couldn't play it any more.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Civ and EU and Sins are all doing very well. PC gaming is doing just fine--it's just not able to compete in the genres you want it to compete in. The *worst* thing the PC world can do is look on this as the moral crusade people like you four do. That's only going to lead to them throwing away money. I can't stress the realism of Stardock here enough, about "looking at the market as a business not about trying to be "cool".":
http://draginol.joeuser.com/article/303512/Piracy_PC_Gaming

I'm sorry, are you trying to compare the worldwide sales of consoles to PCs?
http://www.destructoid.com/pc-gaming-not-really-dead-after-all-31138.phtml

Anita Frazier, an industry analyst for the NPD Group, a market research firm, noted that in the first two months of 2007, domestic retail sales of PC games reached $203 million, a 48 percent increase over the $136.8 million in the period a year earlier. She noted that these figures do not include revenue generated by PC game sales online, or online subscriptions to play PC games.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Because there's no good reason to think that the majority of them will probably feel the same way me and the majority of my friends, who were all playing games on the computer before even DOOM came out--that it's just more fun on a console.

That's a matter of taste and there's also no accounting for the taste of some.
*Snip*

Cheeze_Pavilion:
If anything, the FPS has probably seen the biggest decline in the percentage of fans interested in modding, because the FPS has grown so wildly in popularity among the kind of people who just aren't the type to know how to install a mod, let alone tinker with it themselves.

Yet there are countless thousands of mods for countless thousand PC games.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

You really think you're going to get the average Halo playing Bro to care about the gravity gun and hitboxes and Garry's Mod?

Do you even *want* to?

You're right on both counts there. I have had some interesting conversations with people on Xbox Live. My ears still ring with the word fag which never ceases to surprise me with how often someone can insert it into a single sentence. This also is a very telling cause of why it's better on the PC. Most PC gamers (I'm not going to even pretend to be deluded enough to consider every PC gamer mature) are far more level headed than console gamers, look at the 0arguments between MS and Sony fanboys. Go into any random 360 or PS3 game server and suck at it. You'll get called every insult imaginable and fag more than anything else. Do likewise on the Pc and you'll get a few who'll call you an idiot or a moron but the majority will help you out and offer tips and so forth.

In either case though, playing an FPS on a controller simply doesn't not equate to what a FPS should be played like.

Malygris:

And I guess you'll have to add me to your growing list of "PC fundamentalists" because your comment about shooters being a console genre is just stunningly wrong. Controllers lack the speed and precision of a mouse, and without the aiming assistance that most console shooters have (and PC shooters do not) console gamers would suffer a virtually immeasurable disadvantage.

And now I rush to Cheez's defense.

The gamepad does not have an advantage over the mouse, but it does have an advantage over the keyboard. Think not in terms of "analog vs mouse" but in "analog vs WASD." I don't want to meet the person who will argue that analog loses the latter battle.

And as a point of interest. The Orange Box for the 360 has no auto-aim and I didn't miss it.

Chaos Marine:

Cheeze_Pavilion:
*Snip*
It's not--the FPS and Third Person Shooter and Adventure/Action and Platforming genres are console genres. Period. The majority of people prefer those games with a gamepad whether their first console was a PS3 or an Atari 2600, and there was a gap in their--okay, my--console ownership between the Sega Genesis and the PS2 they got to play God of War.
*Snip*

You're a moron. FPS games do not belong on consoles. They're horrifically imbalanced to the player giving him the ability to soak up insane damage and autoaim. No skill or sense of accomplishment whatsoever. Where as with the PC, most FPS games, you get hit maybe three or four times on the normal difficulty settings or one or two on the hard settings and you're dead. When you fight your way through a dozen or several foes each as capable as killing you as you are them, the sense of satisfaction is immense. Don't you dare assume otherwise. FPS games will always be a PC genre far more than anything.

Killzone 2 and the FragFX disagree.

Eldritch Warlord:
And now I rush to Cheez's defense.

The gamepad does not have an advantage over the mouse, but it does have an advantage over the keyboard. Think not in terms of "analog vs mouse" but in "analog vs WASD." I don't want to meet the person who will argue that analog loses the latter battle.

And as a point of interest. The Orange Box for the 360 has no auto-aim and I didn't miss it.

The difference between WASD and the analog is nowhere as big as the difference between the analog and mouse. Also, your movement in FPS isn't nearly as important as aiming is, thus lessen the impact of the small gap between WASD and the analog even more. And even when movement is important to the FPS (such as UT or Quake), which platform are those games on? Oh yes, they are on PC.

Also, there is this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIW9-whnRD4&feature=related

Cheeze_Pavilion:

You are exactly the kind of people I was thinking of when I wrote:

What PC gaming needs is to get rid of all the fundamentalists who think converting people to the mouse and keyboard is what PC gaming needs

Did I ever say that you couldn't enjoy FPS with a console or that people needed to play their games with a mouse and keyboard? Nope, not at all. In fact, I specifically stated that playing an FPS on a console with a gamepad was perfectly fine, just as playing a racing game on your computer with a mouse and keyboard is perfectly fine. My original point was that the controls of a PC lend themselves much better to the FPS genre than a controller, much like the mouse and keyboard lends itself better to the RTS genre more than a controller. I would appreciate it if you didn't throw words into my mouth Cheeze.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Because there's no good reason to think that the majority of them will probably feel the same way me and the majority of my friends, who were all playing games on the computer before even DOOM came out--that it's just more fun on a console.

I have known plenty of PC gamers who have inevitably moved onto consoles from PC for a variety of reasons (cost of maintaining a PC, lack of different games on PC, complexity of PC), but one thing they will almost always tell me is that they really miss playing their FPS with a mouse and keyboard. Many of them will tolerate a controller, but most of them would prefer a mouse and keyboard.

This isn't something that is widely debated among the gaming community. A large amount of console gamers will simply tell you straight up that the keyboard and mouse is simply better than analog sticks. It's pretty much assumed among the gaming community that the mouse/keyboard is better for FPS. Of course, that doesn't mean it will stop you from enjoying an FPS with a gamepad.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Bullshit. The most modable game I have ever encountered was UMS II. I remember designing two entire sets of armed forces using that game.

That's super fantastic that ONE game was very super-moddable, but when you think of mods, what do you think about? Counter-Strike, custom maps, Team Fortress, DOOM, and a slew of other mods that have inevitably been based off of FPS games. No doubt that other games have impressive modability such as Oblivion or UMS II, but that doesn't make their modding as widespread as the FPS genre has it.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
The issue is that the people interested in mods overlap with the people interested in FPSes to a much lesser extent than they did before, because all the new FPS fans are, I think, not the type to mod.

Yes, because most of the new FPS fans don't even know what a mod even is. The closest most new FPS fans have to modding is Halo 3 and even then, that's just the tip of the iceberg of what true modding can accomplish.

You seem to have this idea that because a group of people only know one type of way to enjoy a game (be it with a gamepad or without modding), then they would automatically hate the other side of it or have no interest in it (with a keyboard and mouse or with modding). I know tons of people who were really excited at the prospect of being able to play UT mods on their PS3.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
If anything, the FPS has probably seen the biggest decline in the percentage of fans interested in modding, because the FPS has grown so wildly in popularity among the kind of people who just aren't the type to know how to install a mod, let alone tinker with it themselves.

You are right, it has seen the biggest decline because many more people now-a-days are getting into FPS via console rather than PC. Even if they were potentially interested in modding, they can't be interested in it if they have never been introduced to it, could they?

Cheeze_Pavilion:
You really think you're going to get the average Halo playing Bro to care about the gravity gun and hitboxes and Garry's Mod?

Do you even *want* to?

No, I don't think the average frat player would care and I don't necessarily want them to care. However, I think both you and I know that there are still plenty of people out there who play FPS on consoles that would be interested in, at the very least, downloading mods. I mean, people will fucking pay $2.50 for fucking horse armor or other insane amounts of money just for a little customization. I would think that people like that would be interested in free small mods which also allow for a degree of customization.

Chaos Marine:

I'm sorry, are you trying to compare the worldwide sales of consoles to PCs?
http://www.destructoid.com/pc-gaming-not-really-dead-after-all-31138.phtml

Anita Frazier, an industry analyst for the NPD Group, a market research firm, noted that in the first two months of 2007, domestic retail sales of PC games reached $203 million, a 48 percent increase over the $136.8 million in the period a year earlier. She noted that these figures do not include revenue generated by PC game sales online, or online subscriptions to play PC games.

Yeah, and you know where a lot of that money is coming from? Not from games like Crysis, from games like Sins of a Solar Empire and Civ4 and even those monster games from Strategy First like Victoria and Hearts of Iron.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Because there's no good reason to think that the majority of them will probably feel the same way me and the majority of my friends, who were all playing games on the computer before even DOOM came out--that it's just more fun on a console.

That's a matter of taste and there's also no accounting for the taste of some.

That's true. Why is it that ONLY the FPS computer people have this kind of insecurity about their little corner--and I do mean little--of the PC gaming world? You don't see Civ fans going on the same way about Civ Revolutions coming to the console, now, do you? I subscribe to the Civ Fanatics forum--there was way more disappointment with the Colonization remake.

From those of us who play PC games other than FPSes--in other words, the overwhelming majority--we don't really like you FPS people being the voice of PC gaming. You're not really all that representative of the rest of us. You are just the noisy, reactionary tip of the iceberg--visible, but small in proportion.

Now stop blathering on about FPSes and like, make us a worthy Master of Orion sequel!

Cheeze_Pavilion:
If anything, the FPS has probably seen the biggest decline in the percentage of fans interested in modding, because the FPS has grown so wildly in popularity among the kind of people who just aren't the type to know how to install a mod, let alone tinker with it themselves.

Yet there are countless thousands of mods for countless thousand PC games.

thousands <<< the ridiculous number of people who bought Gears of War in one month. Heck, the number of people who paid full price for that CoD4 mod/skin they call World at War only a year after the original game came out.

Most PC gamers (I'm not going to even pretend to be deluded enough to consider every PC gamer mature) are far more level headed than console gamers, look at the 0arguments between MS and Sony fanboys.

Malygris:

I see your point (I think): The average sideways-hat-wearing slackjaw prefers the controller to a mouse/keyboard combo despite its inherent disadvantages, because it's less intimidating.

That's the only point I was ever making. The PC Gaming Alliance I would think should have as one of its goals to keep the industry profitable, not to engage in some kind of moral crusade on behalf of the computer. I could even see it fighting for the PC enthusiast, but, you can do that without believing that you HAVE to make the PC dominant.

Now, as for console players being a "sideways-hat-wearing slackjaw" while "Most PC gamers are far more level headed than console gamers" and the "arguments between MS and Sony fanboys," I have to ask: what does it say about the PC *FPS* crowd that if a person writes a post that is only about the gaming market and economics and contains no value judgments whatsoever, their responses hardly even address that issue and blather on and on and ON about stuff like hitboxes?

Face it--the worst fanboys in the world are PC FPS people. Not PC people, just the PC FPS crowd. Now, would you stop giving the rest of us a bad name by acting like you've got anything to do with the rest of us? See, when we think "intimidation" from a PC game, it has to do with that time we tried to play Gary Grigsby's Pacific War, and kind of laugh at people who choose that word for using a mouse and keyboard to twitch an aiming reticule around a screen.

I mean really--you think it's special you can aim without a mile-wide hitbox? Show me a Deity Conquest victory earlier than 1000AD where you started with Monty, Isabella, and Shaka on your continent with raging barbarians, and then I might be impressed!

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Face it--the worst fanboys in the world are PC FPS people. Not PC people, just the PC FPS crowd. Now, would you stop giving the rest of us a bad name by acting like you've got anything to do with the rest of us? See, when we think "intimidation" from a PC game, it has to do with that time we tried to play Gary Grigsby's Pacific War, and kind of laugh at people who choose that word for using a mouse and keyboard to twitch an aiming reticule around a screen.

Oh come off it. You aren't acting much better in this thread. I can't help but feel that it's because your unhappy that FPS has always had a stronger widespread popularity on PC than your strategy games have had.

Joeshie:

Eldritch Warlord:
And now I rush to Cheez's defense.

The gamepad does not have an advantage over the mouse, but it does have an advantage over the keyboard. Think not in terms of "analog vs mouse" but in "analog vs WASD." I don't want to meet the person who will argue that analog loses the latter battle.

Also, your movement in FPS isn't nearly as important as aiming is, thus lessen the impact of the small gap between WASD and the analog even more. And even when movement is important to the FPS (such as UT or Quake), which platform are those games on? Oh yes, they are on PC.

You know, to make a value judgment in this thread, I think you've hit on a big reason why some people prefer the console to the PC for the FPS. On a console, maybe movement becomes more important relative to aiming? Maybe some people prefer a different mix of movement vs. aiming?

Joeshie:

Cheeze_Pavilion:

You are exactly the kind of people I was thinking of when I wrote:

What PC gaming needs is to get rid of all the fundamentalists who think converting people to the mouse and keyboard is what PC gaming needs

Did I ever say that you couldn't enjoy FPS with a console or that people needed to play their games with a mouse and keyboard? Nope, not at all. In fact, I specifically stated that playing an FPS on a console with a gamepad was perfectly fine, just as playing a racing game on your computer with a mouse and keyboard is perfectly fine. My original point was that the controls of a PC lend themselves much better to the FPS genre than a controller, much like the mouse and keyboard lends itself better to the RTS genre more than a controller. I would appreciate it if you didn't throw words into my mouth Cheeze.

I would appreciate it if your responses to me were to points I actually made. What does the statement "the controls of a PC lend themselves much better to the FPS genre than a controller" have to do with my point about the preferences of the consumer? Would you respond to an argument about why there are more McDonald's locations than steakhouses with an argument about the greater quality of dry-aged beef?

Joeshie:

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Face it--the worst fanboys in the world are PC FPS people. Not PC people, just the PC FPS crowd. Now, would you stop giving the rest of us a bad name by acting like you've got anything to do with the rest of us? See, when we think "intimidation" from a PC game, it has to do with that time we tried to play Gary Grigsby's Pacific War, and kind of laugh at people who choose that word for using a mouse and keyboard to twitch an aiming reticule around a screen.

Oh come off it. You are acting like a complete tool in this thread. I can't help but feel that it's because your unhappy that FPS has always had a stronger widespread popularity on PC than your precious strategy games have had.

I see the truth hurts... :-D

And don't confuse "vocal" with "popular." You think Civ is less widespread on PC than FPSes? Civ seems pretty popular to me...like Brad Wardell of Stardock wrote:

So even though Galactic Civilizations II sold 300,000 copies making 8 digits in revenue on a budget of less than $1 million, it's still largely off the radar. I practically have to agree to mow editors lawns to get coverage. And you should see Jeff Green's (Games for Windows) yard. I still can't find my hedge trimmers.

Another game that has been off the radar until recently was Sins of a Solar Empire. With a small budget, it has already sold about 200,000 copies in the first month of release. It's the highest rated PC game of 2008 and probably the best selling 2008 PC title. Neither of these titles have CD copy protection.

And yet we don't get nearly the attention of other PC games. Lack of marketing on our part? We bang on the doors for coverage as next as the next shop. Lack of advertising? Open up your favorite PC game publication for the past few months and take note of all the 2 page spreads for Sins of a Solar Empire. So we certainly try.

But we still don't get the editorial buzz that some of the big name titles do because our genre isn't considered as "cool" as other genres. Imagine what our sales would be if our games had gotten game magazine covers and just massive editorial coverage like some of the big name games get. I don't want to suggest we get treated poorly by game magazine and web sites (not just because I fear them -- which I do), we got good preview coverage on Sins, just not the same level as one of the "mega" titles would get. Hard core gamers have different tastes in games than the mainstream PC gaming market of game buyers. Remember Roller Coaster Tycoon? Heck, how much buzz does The Sims get in terms of editorial when compared to its popularity. Those things just aren't that cool to the hard core gaming crowd that everything seems geared toward despite the fact that they're not the ones buying most of the games.

I won't even mention some of the big name PC titles that GalCiv and Sins have outsold. There's plenty of PC games that have gotten dedicated covers that haven't sold as well. So why is that?
http://draginol.joeuser.com/article/303512/Piracy_PC_Gaming

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Joeshie:

Eldritch Warlord:
And now I rush to Cheez's defense.

The gamepad does not have an advantage over the mouse, but it does have an advantage over the keyboard. Think not in terms of "analog vs mouse" but in "analog vs WASD." I don't want to meet the person who will argue that analog loses the latter battle.

Also, your movement in FPS isn't nearly as important as aiming is, thus lessen the impact of the small gap between WASD and the analog even more. And even when movement is important to the FPS (such as UT or Quake), which platform are those games on? Oh yes, they are on PC.

You know, to make a value judgment in this thread, I think you've hit on a big reason why some people prefer the console to the PC for the FPS. On a console, maybe movement becomes more important relative to aiming? Maybe some people prefer a different mix of movement vs. aiming?

I'm not sure it's more important than aiming on console. I mean, I usually stick to playing FPS on console, but I have played quite a bit of CoD4 and Halo 3 with my friends who don't own a PC good enough to play games on it. From my experience, aiming still trumps movement.

A probable difference is that PC gamers probably use a strong combination of both WASD and aiming to dictate their movement, while console gamers probably use mainly just their left analog stick.

Anyways, as much as I would love to continue debating this with you Cheeze, I unfortunately have a few finals I need to be studying for so my part in this back-and-forth debate is over for now.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
What PC gaming needs is to get rid of all the fundamentalists who think converting people to the mouse and keyboard is what PC gaming needs

It's not--the FPS and Third Person Shooter and Adventure/Action and Platforming genres are console genres. Period. The majority of people prefer those games with a gamepad whether their first console was a PS3 or an Atari 2600, and there was a gap in their--okay, my--console ownership between the Sega Genesis and the PS2 they got to play God of War.

What PC gaming needs is an Alliance that realizes that the strengths of PC gaming are the mod scene, people who want to play complex simulation games, RTS people (and understand that RTSes aren't really all that complex), and all those little niches, like the people who will be enticed into playing a game knowing that not only is the Armada-Petrolboat included but the Armada-DIESELBOAT too, or that the latest expansion adds 50 years to the timeline of Europa Universalis III and players can see their empires evolve from King Henry IV's coronation in 1399 to the end of the Hundred Years' War.

That's a great formula for getting me to quit video games altogether.

For most (but not all) shooters, I very much prefer the keyboard-and-mouse interface over a gamepad. The single best feature of a console shooter is split-screen multiplayer, and that is, very sadly, on the decline.

RPGs, likewise, play smoother with a mouse, especially in menus. (They're also the games that most need to be modded, in my opinion, given how crappy the basic mechanics of most RPG video games are.) MMOGs with their particular interfaces -- the combination of RPG stats and inventory systems with all kinds of extra stuff for communication -- are unquestionably the domain of PC gaming right now.

I've got a console. I've played console games for years. But, really, if my favorite genres jump entirely to consoles, I'm not going to follow them -- because I know the games will be worse.

-- Alex

Indigo_Dingo:

*Snip*
Killzone 2 and the FragFX disagree.

From what I've seen of the videos over at gametrailers.com, Killzone 2 suffers the same bullet sponge/autoaiming nannying gameplay that just ruins FPS games. Then again, I wouldn't really consider Killzone, nor Halo or Resistance to be proper FPS games. More FPS with the equivalent of training wheels. Never heard of FragFX.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
Yeah, and you know where a lot of that money is coming from? Not from games like Crysis, from games like Sins of a Solar Empire and Civ4 and even those monster games from Strategy First like Victoria and Hearts of Iron.

Contrary to what the lead idiot at Crytek stated, Crysis sold well over a million units exceeding EA's expectation for the game.

Cheese Pavilion:
That's true. Why is it that ONLY the FPS computer people have this kind of insecurity about their little corner--and I do mean little--of the PC gaming world? You don't see Civ fans going on the same way about Civ Revolutions coming to the console, now, do you? I subscribe to the Civ Fanatics forum--there was way more disappointment with the Colonization remake.

From those of us who play PC games other than FPSes--in other words, the overwhelming majority--we don't really like you FPS people being the voice of PC gaming. You're not really all that representative of the rest of us. You are just the noisy, reactionary tip of the iceberg--visible, but small in proportion.

Now stop blathering on about FPSes and like, make us a worthy Master of Orion sequel!

My first RTS game was Dark Reign. That game still is pure fucking awesome and still has interesting gameplay elements that astounds me for not being standardised at this point. Then I got TA and it's more or less the same and SupCom enhanced even that still. I have a hugely diverse collection of games from Nox to Chaos Gate to C&C, Starlancer to Klingon Academy to Act of War to Gears of War to Gun to Assassin's Creed to Starcraft to Final Liberation to Guild Wars to all the Fallout games to The Elder Scrolls 3(With all the expansion packs) to The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion to FEAR to Deus Ex to the Homeworld series to CoD4 to Evil Overlord to Sins of a Solar Empire to Diablo II (Plus expansion pack) to FlatoutUt3 to everything released by Valve to GTA 1, London, 2 3 and 4 to Darwinia and Multiwinia to Neverwinter Nights 2 to Mechwarriors 2, 3 and 4 to Starsiege to Starsiege Tribes, Tribes 2 and Tribes Vengeance etc etc. I could go on. And on and on and on.

Do not assume I'm just an FPS gamer. My collection of games is massive and widespread.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
That's the only point I was ever making. The PC Gaming Alliance I would think should have as one of its goals to keep the industry profitable, not to engage in some kind of moral crusade on behalf of the computer. I could even see it fighting for the PC enthusiast, but, you can do that without believing that you HAVE to make the PC dominant.

Now, as for console players being a "sideways-hat-wearing slackjaw" while "Most PC gamers are far more level headed than console gamers" and the "arguments between MS and Sony fanboys," I have to ask: what does it say about the PC *FPS* crowd that if a person writes a post that is only about the gaming market and economics and contains no value judgments whatsoever, their responses hardly even address that issue and blather on and on and ON about stuff like hitboxes?

Face it--the worst fanboys in the world are PC FPS people. Not PC people, just the PC FPS crowd. Now, would you stop giving the rest of us a bad name by acting like you've got anything to do with the rest of us? See, when we think "intimidation" from a PC game, it has to do with that time we tried to play Gary Grigsby's Pacific War, and kind of laugh at people who choose that word for using a mouse and keyboard to twitch an aiming reticule around a screen.

I mean really--you think it's special you can aim without a mile-wide hitbox? Show me a Deity Conquest victory earlier than 1000AD where you started with Monty, Isabella, and Shaka on your continent with raging barbarians, and then I might be impressed!

The PC Gaming Alliance is a joke. You have Microsoft or rather part of it, Epic who have pretty much stabbed the gaming community that made them in the back and a smattering of self interested others who are more in it for show than anything else. If the PC Gaming Alliance was in any way serious, the first and most important thing they could do would be to set up a PC orientated advertisement company to promote PC games and equipment. Building a PC is a piece of piss and I could toss together a machine in about half an hour. It takes longer to install the OS than anything else and if I could do it, a trained monkey could do it.

 Pages 1 2 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here