CliffyB Thinks Used Games Are Bad, Sony is "Playing Us"

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CliffyB Thinks Used Games Are Bad, Sony is "Playing Us"

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Dude Huge claims that it is impossible for used games and game rentals to co-exist in this world of massive marketing and production budgets.

Microsoft's decision to redefine the concept of "game ownership" and Sony's decision to ridicule that decision had many people praising the PS4 developer. Cliff "CliffyB" Bleszinski, former bigwig at Epic Games and creator of the Gears of War franchise, was not one of them. "You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," he said via Twitter. "The numbers do NOT work people."

Dude Huge also thinks that Sony has its own used game solution up its sleeve and is just playing on the internet outrage for free PR. "You're all being played!" he warns us. Rumors that Sony's own machine would block used game sales in some way surfaced in the lead up to the PS4's reveal.

Bleszinkski went on to explain his stance, saying that games have gotten so big that there is just no way the next generation can survive if the used game and game rental markets keep taking a cut. "The visual fidelity and feature sets we expect from games now come with sky high costs," he says, "Assassins Creed games are made by thousands of devs."

The former dev also warns us that the day-one $60 disc-based model is crumbling. "Newsflash. This is why you're seeing free to play and microtransactions everywhere."

Pretty inflammatory statements, but then again, Cliffy B is not known for holding his tongue, having spoken out in favor of unpopular business strategies in the past.

Nonetheless, you can't argue with the success of man's games, and he is in no sense of the word a "bad dev." He does actually know what he's talking about, so maybe he is just saying the things we all don't want to hear, but know to be true?

But then again, maybe he should just can it, and have a look at Nintendo's stance on used games: make games that are so good that people will want to keep them forever.

Source: Twitter via PlayStation Lifestyle

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Dude....

I see your lips moving but all I hear is:
"PONCEPONCEPONCEPONCEPONCE"

Ugh never liked this dude.

He's right about the second part. Sony did come out against used games early. Then, after the XBone announcement, they changed their tune. Whatever else you may think of CliffyB, he is probably right that the makers of the PSP Go are probably just looking to ease us into "no used games" down the line.

Cliffy B's entire argument is "games are so expensive we have to hurt consumers to pay for them, suck it up."

Amazing how he doesn't even seem to consider that game devs could, I don't know, stop making games that cost more than the market can bear. It's like Michael Bay saying we need to eliminate sales of used DVDs in order to have more explosions in film.

Not interested in being held responsible for your excesses and inability to realistically budget and control costs on your projects.

I'm honestly of the opinion that above all else, people actually buying your game is the sticking point as to if something will work or not.

Except that simply isn't the case. You -can- make games that'll profit without 5 million fucking sales, you just -aren't-.

"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," he said via Twitter. "The numbers do NOT work people."

There are two solutions here. One is yours, the other is better.

"Huge budgets make used games a bad thing!"
You know what the problem is? THE HUGE BUDGETS.

Steven Bogos:
Dude Huge also thinks that Sony has its own used game solution up its sleeve and is just playing on the internet outrage for free PR. "You're all being played!" he warns us. Rumors that Sony's own machine would block used game sales in some way surfaced in the lead up to the PS4's reveal.

I am also curious about this. Either Xbox is run by people that know less about business than me, they have an extremely unlikely Ace under their sleeve or Sony will indeed force some new DRM or use the current one to emulate microsoft new measures. All in all, i have learnt to think that people ain't idiots when it comes to money, so the most likely explanation for me is what Cliffy is saying.

As for the comparison with nintendo, it's really forced isn't it? They have different markets, different objectives and VERY different game libraries; I am sure that if nintendo had a yearly CoD or several big budget series and the likes the behaviour of their consumers would change. I would contest that they see less trading because they have way less games and the average nintendo consumer has more time to save for each one while liking to have a somewhat varied game library.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand why the video game industry thinks it should have some special exemption from used sales. When I buy a used car does the original manufacturer get a cut? When I sell an old tv to a friend does samsung get a cut? Besides, I fail to see why we are responsible for the budgets and costs of any game.

I know he's worked in the games industry a long time an all, but he's still managed to some how NOT know what the fuck he's talking about.

it's admirable in a way, and sad in another.

the only reason costs are so high is because of one thing they have control over, marketing, pretty much every one save a few devs have let it get so out of had we hear things like 'Dead Space needs to sell 5 million to stay viable' and this asshole is part of that problem.

If they didn't spends millions upon millions more then they needed to on marketing, for games most people have already made up there minds on no less, no one would even care about 'the evils of used games'

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Epic make money for every game that uses the Unreal Engine? which is like 40% of them? Haven't their games like Gears of War gone on to sell 5 million copies each? What the hell do they have to worry about inflated prices? They will make money just because they slap the logo "epic" on the box. If you're worried about the used game market, make a game that people won't want to sell back to the store so there won't be as many used copies to go around.

So clearly the solution is for companies to control their marketing budgets and production costs and not destroy game ownership.

The thing that doesn't work in this case Cliffy is your brain.

The AAA market is crumbling under the weight of unsupportable development budgets? That's not a newsflash.

But here's one for the insufferable Cliffy B:

A product's development and marketing model becoming unsupportable is a piss-poor reason for trying to keep it afloat by inflicting unprecedented and draconian measures on its customers.

We've been hearing about how a unified engine like Unreal was going to bring down the cost and staff requirements of AAA-game building for years, and thus far, it hasn't turned out that way. The costs keep going up, and customers don't seem to be willing to keep floating higher prices on a disposable luxury product.

But y'know what? Killing the used market, destroying rentals- that's not going to keep costs and prices down any more than all the ads played before your movies have cut the prices on tickets and concessions. They're a stopgap, a drop in the bucket against a model that is floundering before its collapse.

If AAA-games as we know them die, they die. Fortunately, there's an independent movement that's increasingly showing it might have what it takes to take its place.

And if the death of AAA games means we can stop pretending that arrogant and insulting "industry experts" like Bleszinkski are inherently deserving of our consideration, it might be an improvement.

thepyrethatburns:
He's right about the second part. Sony did come out against used games early. Then, after the XBone announcement, they changed their tune. Whatever else you may think of CliffyB, he is probably right that the makers of the PSP Go are probably just looking to ease us into "no used games" down the line.

No, he's not.

Sony came right out from the start and said that their console would support used games. Anything said otherwise was other people trying to spin the whole thing into an issue when it was never an issue to begin with.

It was all based on a vague rumor about the console that ended up being 100% wrong. The only reason they had to repeat themselves at E3 recently was because people were STILL mistakenly spinning that the console didn't support used games.

Stop perpetuating a lie that we knew was a lie back in February.

Did anyone else picture Cliffy typing those tweets by repeatedly slamming his face against his keyboard? Because there's no other way I'm able to reconcile the blind stupidity of the comments with the fact that they were expressed by a living, thinking person.

Unless Blenszinski is willing to pull out spreadsheets and numbers on exactly how used games will destroy the industry, and pull direct evidence on the PS4 that completely and faultlessly contradicts Sony's statements so far, he should probably shut the fuck up. More and more people are buying big-budget games. Nobody stops playing blockbuster titles and deeper experiences on their PC and/or console solely to play on their iPhone or tablet, but a lot of people will do it the other way around. There is not a finite amount of gamers out there. It's an ever expanding market with more and more people coming in with more and more varied tastes. Demanding the death of used games and rentals is a massive flashing highlight that you're just not trying hard enough.

Add this to my folder for when people ask "Okay seriously why does everyone hate Cliffy B? The guys is a legend"

So maybe the budgets are the problem.

It's strange how a person can be right and wrong at the same time.

He's right that the model can not be sustained but he's wrong in who is supposed to change to accomidate it.

When a game has to sell 3,000,000 copies to remain in the black the first thing one must ask is "why did you budget a game to require 3,000,000 sales in order to remain profitable?".

Three million copies being sold requires there to be 3 million people who think the game is worth the price that is being asked AND they can afford the price being asked.

Nintendo's stance on used games: make games that are so good that people will want to keep them forever.

It's just that simple. That or try not to spend so much money making a game where fishes move out of the way when you swing close to them, or dogs look so realistic you want to pet them. It's nice, but making something pretty isn't enough to keep people interested. A good story, multiple endings, various paths and choice, etc. Of course there's always making games cheaper so people don't sell them to buy a new one each time.

I have two words to for Mr. Bleszinski;

Dark Souls

This discussion is over, Cliffy.

"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing." Yup, so instead of the industry setting their goals and budgets to something reasonable, we'd rather trample your consumer rights and FORCE profitability no matter how moronically bloated, short sighted, and arrogant we become. Thanks Cliffy. You can kiss the smelliest part of my ass.

thepyrethatburns:
He's right about the second part. Sony did come out against used games early. Then, after the XBone announcement, they changed their tune. Whatever else you may think of CliffyB, he is probably right that the makers of the PSP Go are probably just looking to ease us into "no used games" down the line.

You can't turn something as big as this around in such a short time and you can't get away with having a slide that specifically says 'people can sell their used games' and then introduce used-game DRM. Sony were doing exactly what they did with the PS3 and then they were gifted by the sudden news that MS had decided to suicide.

thepyrethatburns:
He's right about the second part. Sony did come out against used games early. Then, after the XBone announcement, they changed their tune. Whatever else you may think of CliffyB, he is probably right that the makers of the PSP Go are probably just looking to ease us into "no used games" down the line.

Pretty sure they not trying to ease us, Sony just see that digital distribution will come naturally, which by itself eliminate most of the used market, no need to force user into it and alienate the customer who are more comfortable with physical distribution.

Kay, maybe the problem is with the gross overspending that happens with AAA titles? Not the consumer trying to get a better deal?

He would lash out at Sony. MS is the only reason he has the fame to say what he is saying now. Of course he would adopt MS's stance on used games. In the end, I understand his anger. The shelves of stores that sell used games are littered with all version of Gears of War.... The gamers have spoken. Also, he made games that can be completely handled in SP and MP with a week long rental. He is not the person to look towards is all I'm saying.

Dear Fiscal Cliff,

I played about 2 hours of Gears of War and was bored the entire time. What I did like was Knights of the Old Republic, which I purchased USED because by the time I tried it out it was no longer on shelves. Guess what? I loved it so much I purchased KotOR II brand new. Which in turn led to:

(All new, none used)
Mass Effect (twice)
Dragon Age Origins
Dragon Age Origins Awakenings
Mass Effect 2 (twice)
Mass Effect 3

Used game sales can in reality, lead to new game purchases--because that's what I fucking did. Apologies that I refuse to support the crap shooters that are released, invariably, every year.

Steven Bogos:
"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," he said via Twitter. "The numbers do NOT work people."

I like that his natural conclusion is that used media is the problem, not bloated game and marketing budgets.

Those numbers don't work anyway, Cliff.

Look, I like Cliffy. He was a Nintendo fan, like me (though he never returned the favor and made a Nintendo game... like me. Yet).

Still, he's HARDLY a business major. Secondly, overblown budgets are YOUR problem, not the problem of used games. Third, he built a career out of a partnership with Microsoft.... so, er, a little bias there, maybe?

Armistice:
I'm sorry, I just don't understand why the video game industry thinks it should have some special exemption from used sales. When I buy a used car does the original manufacturer get a cut? When I sell an old tv to a friend does samsung get a cut? Besides, I fail to see why we are responsible for the budgets and costs of any game.

For the car example: Who is responsible for the gas, maintenance, and other necessities to keep the car running once it has left the lot? The TV manufacture is not responsible for the cable bill or other things to view on the TV. Why is the game publisher responsible for the service costs of the game?

thepyrethatburns:
He's right about the second part. Sony did come out against used games early. Then, after the XBone announcement, they changed their tune. Whatever else you may think of CliffyB, he is probably right that the makers of the PSP Go are probably just looking to ease us into "no used games" down the line.

no, they didnt change their tune. Like, at all, wtf are you talking about?

Baldr:

Armistice:
I'm sorry, I just don't understand why the video game industry thinks it should have some special exemption from used sales. When I buy a used car does the original manufacturer get a cut? When I sell an old tv to a friend does samsung get a cut? Besides, I fail to see why we are responsible for the budgets and costs of any game.

For the car example: Who is responsible for the gas, maintenance, and other necessities to keep the car running once it has left the lot? The TV manufacture is not responsible for the cable bill or other things to view on the TV. Why is the game publisher responsible for the service costs of the game?

Your analogy only works for games with online. And for that, there is a little thing called online pass.

Chester Rabbit:
Add this to my folder for when people ask "Okay seriously why does everyone hate Cliffy B? The guys is a legend"

Personally, I've disliked the man since the Unreal Tournament days. Notably, for making some of the worst maps in those games.

Since then, he's done nothing to change my view of him. In fact, as time goes on, he sours it further.

So, yeah. Like you, I too will be adding this little tid-bit of news to my ever-growing pile of evidence for when someone asks why I dislike CliffyB.

my stance is, if a game can't be purchased used on the consoles, I'm not going to buy it.

I buy new games when something comes out that I know I'll love and I either don't want to wait for the prices to drop to the bottom (5 dollars is not enough incentive for me to buy used, when I buy used they're typically 20 dollar 5 year old games).

If a console game is going to lock itself to my console then I don't want it, new, or used. I'll just buy something else. Or nothing. I'm not such a wanker that I NEED MY VIDYA GAMES WAHUUUUUU.

No. If a publisher chooses to shut out the used market for their title on PS4, then I just won't buy that game. If it turns out he's right and Sony's "playing us" and straight lying, then I won't be buying a PS4. I'm freaking 28 years old, you can't just pull this shit anymore.

Nintendo seems to get it, and even if I just get a WiiU, and somehow between Microsoft and Sony they absolutely destroy the used game market, I'll go back to nintendo as my primary system, even if I do have to buy everything new. I'm not buying new from Microsoft or Sony just because of their bullshit marketting tactics. I'll buy new from Nintendo if I must buy new. Or I just won't.

I'll collect 360 games until I have every 360 game I could concievably want to play, and then I'll just call that a fucking day. I'm sick of this garbage.

oh, and cliffy.. bought all 3 gears new. jussayn. gears 3 was an impulse purchase at best buy when I was buying my laptop, and I liked it so much I bought the other 2. Not buying Judgement though. Maybe when its 20 dollars used ;)

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