CliffyB Thinks Used Games Are Bad, Sony is "Playing Us"

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CaptainBill22:
For crying out loud America is a Capitalist country not some back-water socialist one.

Suddenly it all makes sense.

Modern Capitalism >is< backwater. It's about as lowbrow as you can get.

Defending it is strange since it is literally killing you. Your air is dirtier because of it, your water is dirtier, seafood is less safe, millions of people suffer inhumane working conditions because of it.

Money is fine and wanting your business to succeed is fine.

But this idea of doing >anything< and >everything< for profits is moronic and no more rational and modern than beating an animal to death with a club and dragging it into a cave.

You are correct that >if< they want to do what they are doing they >need< to do what CliffyB is saying. The thing you seem to be overlooking is that what they are doing is unnecessarily expensive and these extreme measures should be a realization that they've created something they cannot sustain.

The gaming industry has crashed before and these large companies will crash again. Hopefully after enough industries crash (GG banking, housing, stock market) people, like yourself, will realize this bubble model of business is not immortal nor is it rational.

CaptainBill22:

Yes greed is a sin especially when you are greedy for no reason. A game company has a reason for wanting to make as much as they can off a game. Think of all the overhead that goes into making a game. Then think about what it takes for a developer to stay in business when every game they launch is a virtual gamble and if they lose they can find themselves in the red really quick. Therefore the more they make off a game the better. It means if a project goes south they can cope with it. If they're well into the black they can start a new franchise which means new games for consumers.

Well, then they'd better stop SPENDING so much, huh? And it's not like we expect graphics to blow our socks off EVERY TIME someone releases a new game. THEY DO NOT NEED TO SPEND AS MUCH AS THEY DO, THEY'RE JUST BEING RECKLESS WITH THEIR SPENDING. THAT IS THEIR STUPID FAULT, THEY SHOULD PAY FOR IT. The best selling games this generation are CoD and Mario and the first uses the pretty much the exact same engine and art assets practically every time, and the other only RECENTLY came into HD.

What does it take for a developer to stay in business? How about business skills and basic logic? MANAGE THE DAMN BUDGET. IF YOU NEED TO MATCH THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS TO MAKE YOUR MONEY BACK WITH ONE GAME YOU'RE SPENDING TOO DAMN MUCH. And, no you can't just EXPECT to make ludicrous sales targets because you think your game is, like, really, really good. EVER.

Again, the Tomb Raider example. They spent so much money on such superfluous GARBAGE that the only way to make it back was if it became the next CoD or Mario!!! Who thought this would work??? WAS THERE SOMEONE WHO HONESTLY THOUGHT THIS WAS A SUSTAINABLE BUSINESS VENTURE???? A stupid decision deserves whatever it gets.

The problem isn't that producing a good game REQUIRES an enormous budget. It's that NOBODY WANTS TO WORK ON A SENSIBLE BUDGET BECAUSE IT'S HARD. Well, boo-hoo for you. Funny thing is, CoD and Mario ARE making those numbers but they probably don't even NEED it all to break even.

Consumers have a right to get what they pay for. We don't have a right to complain when businesses need to change they way they do business. For crying out loud America is a Capitalist country not some back-water socialist one.

Yes, and consumers also have a right to criticize that which they perceive is a rip off as well crude business practices. Just because America is a capitalist doesn't excuse a company biting off more than it can chew and expect the customers to be willing to just roll with it when you try to nickel and dime your way out of the grave YOU YOURSELF DUG. Just because this is a capitalist country, doesn't excuse stupidity or anti-consumer practices. Your company went down because you couldn't match the production costs despite selling (say it with me now) MILLIONS OF COPIES? Sucks to be you. Hopefully your IP ends up with someone who can DISPLAY SOME RESTRAINT AND COMPETENCE.

A man hired by MS to make games exclusively for the 360 for the past 5+ years is not gonna have an unbiased opinion. It's just what comes to play when you realize you are standing on thin ice. I went through the comments a bit and saw quite a bit of information. It seems that used games push new games to be bought. Besides, after watching some Jim, I gathered that each new console title makes a retailer a whopping 2 dollars. Yeah, compared to the 60 dollar price tag, that's incredibly little. You think retailers are gonna sit on their hands ?

I think that Blezinski is pretty misled. He actually thinks that high cost is something we expect a game to be. Shows what he knows about the industry. I wish someone would take a list with normal budget games and flash it to him cause I think there are quite a lot of them. I am not gonna listen to a man that supports the 'sharing games with your friends is bad' model. It's stupid, evil and unfair after deciding to buy a game at full price.

I love how it's everyone but the game developers fault for why they can't sell as many copies of their game.

GodzillaGuy92:
Did anyone else picture Cliffy typing those tweets by repeatedly slamming his face against his keyboard? Because there's no other way I'm able to reconcile the blind stupidity of the comments with the fact that they were expressed by a living, thinking person.

Comedy gold!

The solution to his problem is not the elimination of used games and rentals, the solution to his problem is to stop spending so much money on your goddamned games.
There are plenty of indie and even some mid-budget titles that are great. Do you really think Left 4 Dead cost 100 million to make and market?
If the industry can't afford to make these games anymore (which sounds a little like bullshit because they have and do keep making them) then the industry needs to get its act together and stop producing a product it can't pay for.

Jamous:

Jesse Billingsley:

Jamous:
Except that simply isn't the case. You -can- make games that'll profit without 5 million fucking sales, you just -aren't-.

"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," he said via Twitter. "The numbers do NOT work people."

There are two solutions here. One is yours, the other is better.

Can we go back to the days when people made games to make fucking games???? When did this suddenly turn into an economic war?

I have no idea. It's fucking ridiculous, and seems to be the root of most issues people have with the industry at the moment. Bluh. At least it seems we'll be getting some more interesting titles again with the next gen. More than have been around in the console market recently at least.

Tell me about it. So far I am only stoked for The Division and Watch_Dogs

Jamous:

Jesse Billingsley:

Jamous:
Except that simply isn't the case. You -can- make games that'll profit without 5 million fucking sales, you just -aren't-.

"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing," he said via Twitter. "The numbers do NOT work people."

There are two solutions here. One is yours, the other is better.

Can we go back to the days when people made games to make fucking games???? When did this suddenly turn into an economic war?

I have no idea. It's fucking ridiculous, and seems to be the root of most issues people have with the industry at the moment. Bluh. At least it seems we'll be getting some more interesting titles again with the next gen. More than have been around in the console market recently at least.

Tell me about it. So far I am only stoked for The Division and Watch_Dogs

theultimateend:

If you like paying top dollar for really pretty, shallow shit, you need to stop second hand sales.

A great tragedy. I want to see the Onion do something on this.

deadish:

The game industry has survived 2 decades without insane DRM. Just saying.

Can you believe it? Nowadays you'd think that the game industry would crash at the drop of a pin.

CaptainBill22:
We don't have a right to complain when businesses need to change they way they do business.

Let me get this straight. They absolutely NEED to change the way they do business in such a way that:

Alienates customers with no internet?
Inconveniences customers who do have internet?
Attaches an expensive peripheral that no one wants?
Puts them in absolute control how you play and share your games?

And no one has the right to complain about this?
You think this is the ultimate solution?

The only thing I might begrudgingly accept is that Sony is playing us. On the conference, they made it clear that there will be no online requirement, then the next day the CEO said it's up to the publisher to use online DRM on the game. I don't know what to believe from them anymore, and as a result, I will not be buying the PS4 on day one, I will wait several months or a year to see how everything is handled and then decide.

The rest is, of course, nonsense. I do not care if your business model is sustainable or not, that's your problem, if it isn't you need to change it without seizing my property which I paid for, or you need to monetize it further in smart ways that are mutually beneficial to both the publishers and the consumers.

Pretty sure Jim Sterling has pointed out already the flaws in this argument. I can't remember what video, but I'm sure more fervent fans of the Jimquisition could link it.

Basically, though, he points out how this is more of the developer's fault for developing a game with such a ludicrously high cost of production that they need to sell a ridiculous, unrealistic amount to recoup development costs. Hey, industry: This is Economics 101. If you're not receiving a favorable yield for your product, maybe you should, you know, not spend fucking everything on video games and hope to god that the market heralds your product as the second coming of Jesus. If you toned down the graphics a bit, I don't think anyone would honestly notice or care.

The big push toward big budget game development has also created the conditions whereby all these studios are creating such similar games. Expecting a CoD clone to sell like CoD is MENTAL, it's preposterous. Sure you can get an RC Cola or Big 8 or even a Pepsi, but none of them sell like Coka-Cola, and if they all had budgets that expected Coka-Cola type sales, they would go out of business and the cola consuming public would be better off. It's the same type of argument about games.

Dark Souls 2 wants to sell like Skyrim. *Newsflash* You. Are. Not. Skyrim. Dark Souls captured people's imaginations and got spread by word of mouth because it was not like Skyrim. If they dumb down the difficulty than it will alienate the very hardcore loyalists to the franchise, and if you try to be another Skyrim, all you've done is dumbed down your product for mass consumption. Skyrim sold like crazy because it had a pedigree of success as well; I have probably played Morrowind more than any other single game, especially single player game, ever. Oblivion was an intense upgrade, an excellent sequel. So many franchises slide down the slippery slope toward homogenous games, and Skyrim was a victim of thise too, while the graphics are better, the game experience, RPG elements, and character uniqueness are all dumbed down. Less weapons, less skills, more GRAPHICS.

Copy and pasting Coke's recipe doesn't give you Coke profits, no matter how good the can looks.

Carnagath:
The only thing I might begrudgingly accept is that Sony is playing us. On the conference, they made it clear that there will be no online requirement, then the next day the CEO said it's up to the publisher to use online DRM on the game. I don't know what to believe from them anymore, and as a result, I will not be buying the PS4 on day one, I will wait several months or a year to see how everything is handled and then decide.

It is up to the developer to determine if a game is always online or not. Armored Core V, for example, can be played offline, but everything that is really worth playing can only be done with an internet connection. As a result it suffered, not only because the developer made it always online, but because the publisher did not bother taking care of it. Updates came out months after their original due date for the western audience and they also completely ignored the community when we asked why they were sitting on their hands.

So really, CEO is right, it is up to the developers. I'm sure what he was getting at was that the system itself will not need a connection to turn it on like the Xbox One.

Our profits can't sustain our bloated, out-of-control development process?

Clearly, the problem is EVERYTHING BUT WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.

It's like a guy who weighs 800 pounds demanding that everyone widen their doorways instead of, y'know, PUTTING DOWN THE FORK. Maybe DON'T have that fifth piece of cheesecake.

If the "Next gen" games can't survive while a used market is in play, then the market needs to slow down. It's just that simple. Nobody is FORCING game companies to spend more and more and more and more money. I have no problems if game companies need to scale back, I'd much rather that then they start stripping away what I'm allowed to do with my property.

I should listen to a guy who is not only a game dev (hence he would earn more from xbones model being the norm), he is a guy who's big franchise is being backed by microsoft?

(I know devs have come out in support of Sony's stance but if they are willing to give up some cash, it must be there honest opinion.)

This guy just has one to many biases for my liking! Do you really think he is going to say "microsoft are wrong, used games are fine by me"?

This is like somebody trying to sell me a chocolate fire guard, I'm not buying it.

Steven Bogos:
CliffyB Thinks Used Games Are Bad, Sony is "Playing Us"

image

Dude Huge claims that it is impossible for used games and game rentals to co-exist in this world of massive marketing and production budgets.

... And somehow the solution to this problem is to eliminate used games and rentals instead of figuring out how to develop and market within your means?

Ugh. It's been years since a AAA game came out that I wanted to pay the full $60 for, and there are millions of people just like me. All the AAA game industry is doing is narrowing their audience to overmoneyed high school/college kids. If 1 million+ sales isn't enough to recoup the money they waste then narrowing the audience even further is not remotely going to help the industry.

Us PC gamers are just standing around watching this massive pissing contest between the various devs and console manufacturers, and thinking: "Man, I really like downloading mods."

Then we go play Skyrim and fill a house with decapitated women.

No seriously.

Some guy did that.

I'm 99% sure he's a god damn psychopath.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JHvx0l_tVEw#!

But for real, this is hilarious, everyone complaining about how the console makers are 'playing them' and wanting to have another friendly console generation like the halcyon days of PS2, Gamecube, and Xbox. All of this while the PC, the old faithful hound of gaming, is sitting neglected and waiting in the corner for you to realize that it not only fulfills all of your graphics requirements and then some, it also lets you play games of more depth and interest that just shooting-gallery-wahey-stupid-fun.

Lower your fucking budgets. Heighten your ideas. Make a smaller scale game that appeals to a more targeted but appreciative audience that really has some vision and craft and something to say and your game will sell and sell well over time.

Here is what will help fix the games industry;

- Original ideas and creative driven games. If no one has an exceptional passion for it it's not going to be an exceptional game.

- More developers owning their IP; If a developer owns an IP they are more likely to treat it better and be able to stay open. If a publisher works as a partner and mot a master then a lot more good games will be made. Lack of IP ownership and control is one of the things killing creativity. Art is being stolen from the artist.

- More sanely budgeted games being developed. Homefront helped kill THQ. A few years before that they had been riding high investing in mid-ranged niche products. What happened to this vision that lead them to invest in Ukrainian heroes like 4A games and GSC gameworld? They flushed themselves down the pan by inflating their budgets to where they couldn't afford a flop.

Carnagath:
The only thing I might begrudgingly accept is that Sony is playing us. On the conference, they made it clear that there will be no online requirement, then the next day the CEO said it's up to the publisher to use online DRM on the game. I don't know what to believe from them anymore, and as a result, I will not be buying the PS4 on day one, I will wait several months or a year to see how everything is handled and then decide

By online DRM they meant the publisher restricting how people access the online features for used games, as in an online pass system like we have now.

http://www.gamefront.com/sony-third-party-drm-refers-to-playing-used-games-online-only/

After sorting through most of this thread I find myself not only wishing for the day when CliffyB isn't taken seriously but for the far less likely day when gaming news outlets won't even give him the time of day and simply tell him to fuck off with his stupid ideas and dull repetitive games rather than giving him free publicity by publishing his idiocy.

lacktheknack:

The Jovian:

Abomination:
It's strange how a person can be right and wrong at the same time.

He's right that the model can not be sustained but he's wrong in who is supposed to change to accomidate it.

When a game has to sell 3,000,000 copies to remain in the black the first thing one must ask is "why did you budget a game to require 3,000,000 sales in order to remain profitable?".

Three million copies being sold requires there to be 3 million people who think the game is worth the price that is being asked AND they can afford the price being asked.

Okay let's do the math here: 60 X 3,000,000 = 180,000,000 Dollars. WHERE THE FUCK DO THESE GUYS SPEND ALL THAT MONEY ON!?!?!?! You can make a summer blockbuster with all that cash. Hey publishers, you wannna make profits, cut it out with the hyper realistic graphics, stop blowing millions on marketing campaigns, STOP MINDLESSLY FOLLOWING TRENDS AND COPYING THE POPULAR TITLES!!!! TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR FAILURES!!! STOP BLAMING OTHERS FOR SOMETHING YOU DID!!! STOP IGNORING OR TREATING YOUR CONSUMERS LIKE RETARDED ANTS!!!!!! AND DO!! SOMETHING!! NEW!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uh... you forgot to slice out the various cuts taken by retailers, shipping and manufacturing. The amount that the publisher gets their hands on is way lower than that. It's probably closer to $15.

Not including pre-order sales, etc.

Also, if they cut down on the hyper-realistic graphics, marketing campaigns and popular-copying, they lose a ton of their audience. More than they can afford. And while the trajectory can be fixed, sticking your fingers in your ears and shrieking about what you want to see with no regard to financial reality is not going to fix it, you're just going to annoy people.

Yes because realistic graphics is exactly why people buy and play games. I don't care if a game uses the Quake II Engine as long as it has good gameplay and a good story. And you're assuming that's just because I like Call of Duty that must mean that I wanna buy Battlefield or Medal of Honour. Well the thing is that Medal of Honour: Warfighter tanked BECAUSE it tried to be like Call of Duty a little too much. A game won't lose players if it doesn't have the most realistic graphics and if Dark Souls is an indication you don't need a million dollar marketing campaign to make profits. It's all just a massive waste. Publishers believe that nothing but overhyped shooters can sell and yet The Walking Dead, Dark Souls and XCOM: Enemy Unknown have proved them very wrong. Neither of which had the graphical polish or the marketing of a AAA title.

I don't trust anything cliffy says after watching his twitter reactions to the Xbone announcement, he's like a strange PR businessman being excited about the things which arn't exciting.

Yes, just like hollywood and the music industry couldnt survive piracy? hmmmmmm sound familiar? last time i checked theyr doing great one pumping billion dollar making movies like hotcakes, and the other posting record profits from digital sales, or going even further back in time, remember how VHS was gonna kill TV, or how TV was gonna kill cinema, or how cinema was gonna kill radio, ALL of them still exist and are doing OK (tbh radio and newspaper are dying but that's because of the internet)

ALL of this whining is just masquerading the fact that they want a cut in the used game business and are adamant about stoping piracy, (online check?) theyr gonna have a harsh reality check if they truly believe that every pirated game is one less sale and that people is gonna accept theyr ridiculous impositions on theyr legally OWNED property, is my game i sell it give away burn it, copy it or do any i damn please with it

The Jovian:
Yes because realistic graphics is exactly why people buy and play games. I don't care if a game uses the Quake II Engine as long as it has good gameplay and a good story.

Well, congratulations. I DO care. Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft are the exceptions, not the rule. Generally, unless the rest of the game completely knocks my socks right off, I don't want my polygons showing. Most gamers agree with me, vocal minority be damned. Why do I say "vocal minority"? See below.

And you're assuming that's just because I like Call of Duty that must mean that I wanna buy Battlefield or Medal of Honour. Well the thing is that Medal of Honour: Warfighter tanked BECAUSE it tried to be like Call of Duty a little too much. A game won't lose players if it doesn't have the most realistic graphics and if Dark Souls is an indication you don't need a million dollar marketing campaign to make profits. It's all just a massive waste. Publishers believe that nothing but overhyped shooters can sell and yet The Walking Dead, Dark Souls and XCOM: Enemy Unknown have proved them very wrong. Neither of which had the graphical polish or the marketing of a AAA title.

I thought Warfighter tanked because it was crap.

Also, I'm pretty sure Dark Souls and XCOM were AAA titles with a load of marketing and polish put into them, just not as much.

Also, you're mistaking yourself for the majority. If you walk to the grocery store and start talking with random people about games, you're going to find a distressingly high number of them who are waiting for Call of Duty and Battlefield and don't even know what an "XCOM" is. And if my anecdotal evidence has any merit (and, statistically, anecdotal evidence often has grains of truth), these people WAY outnumber us in terms of audience size. Half my high school was obsessed with Call of Duty, but only eight - EIGHT - of them kept up with anything else.

(This is why I think Xbox One will do well, by the way.)

Quite frankly, if you don't care about graphics and value gameplay and story over all else, then you should be in the Indie section of PC gaming and never looking elsewhere... and by extension, you probably wouldn't be so passionate in a thread about used games, with indies don't implement very often.

Microsoft employee speaking out in defense of microsoft? NEWS AT 11!

Yes, Cliffy B is basically a MS employee at this point.

Douches gonna Douche. Of Course This jackov would say this, hes held this position for years and it is no more right now than it was over the years he has been saying it. Doesnt matter if "Uncle Bill" has his back now or not.

And I thin Cliffy B is a douche who's full of shit and haven't released a good game for YEARS. He also sucked MS dick for far too long to be credible in the matter.

lacktheknack:

Also, I'm pretty sure Dark Souls and XCOM were AAA titles with a load of marketing and polish put into them, just not as much.

I don't think it's as black and white as that.

It's not just you're AAA or you're indie. While I haven't been able to find budgets for either Dark Souls or XCOM, I would wager they're a lot less than your EA or Activision titles.

If Dark Souls can sell 2.4 million copies and turn a profit whereas Dead Space 3 needs to sell 5 million to be "viable" then there has to be at least a 50% difference in their budgets.

Unless EA has a very interesting definition for the word viable, and each game has to make 200% profit or something of that ilk.

edit: Ok I forgot to actually make my point. :(

If there's such a discrepancy in Budget can we still only have the Titles AAA or Indie, or do we need something in between.

Dam if only something could be done about the huge budgets, like lowering them or something

I'm going to go on a bit of tangent here and say big budgets aren't the problem.

... nor is it used games and rentals.

The problem is Publishers/Developers incorrectly calculating the demand for their game and/or thinking if they spend more money on it more people will buy it.

Games can have massive budgets and still make profits even with used game sales. There just has to be a market for that game.

captcha: High Horse

Yes captcha, it is quite lonely up here :(

From the headline alone, is he just saying this before diving into a pool of Microsoft money Scrooge McDuck style?

Funny this statement comes from the guy who sells SUPER POPULAR GAME ENGINE that is branded TOTALLY AFFORDABLE, Even Indi-dev could come up with games that looked AAA (seen it happened BTW; I think this game engine is BEAST except net code). If ANYTHING... Cliffy should be on SONY's side and take stand on Xbone's bad Buz model.. treating consumers like their bitches... but then again... the game that was pumped out using the same THREE(trilogy) exact engine, having NOT added much new content (I meant properties; rebuilds).. that was sold to X360 as exclusive... (saved TONS of money on production) still sold like maad compared to Bulletstorm... Cliffy should REALLY not complain that much... look at GoW series, port, use fancier graphic renderor, add physics, few new monster, mod this, mod that... same game, different look.. Manatee for FMV sequences... game done... what 1000 people cost? maybe Ubi who didn't have UE2.5/3/3.5 to upgrade and port their games to recycle to looked not aging? yeah, Gears one is TOTALLY UE2.5,... don't lie... we already know...

Armistice:
I'm sorry, I just don't understand why the video game industry thinks it should have some special exemption from used sales. When I buy a used car does the original manufacturer get a cut? When I sell an old tv to a friend does samsung get a cut? Besides, I fail to see why we are responsible for the budgets and costs of any game.

Couldn't have said it any better.

If the industry is unable to sustain it's own weight, then it needs to rethink its approach to development. We are not responsible for a bloated budget.

I, for one, agree completely. We should get rid of these bloated budgets that force people to release Aliens: Colonial Marines or take even bigger losses.

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