CliffyB Thinks Used Games Are Bad, Sony is "Playing Us"

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That's why I'll wait till they're both out and reviewed before I pass final judgement on whether I should upgrade from my PS3..

Lilani:
Yeah, I mean we all know how much used and rental cars are dragging down the car industry.

Well, to be fair, that's not exactly a relevant comparison.

EclipseoftheDarkSun:

TomWiley:

EclipseoftheDarkSun:
Yeah, fuck Cliffy B. I'm happy for bloated AAA developers to fail if they can't manage their budgets.

That's a bit shortsighted, isn't it? If the AAA developers go out of business, game developers will lose their jobs which is never good for the industry. There are no studios that develop only AAA titles, and in a dev house it's common for developers to work on various different projects as once, which means that the death of a money generating AAA franchise can also mean the death of a whole lot of less famous but more original IP as the people in the dev house lose their jobs.

This "let's punish the content providers" mentality doesn't really work.

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Just as we shouldn't be over-supporting the car industry in Australia - if it'd fail without excessive consumer support, it's too big to exist. These developers will find new jobs. I can live without a few games if it means things are less draconian overall.

Developers losing their jobs leads to two things: Developers taking less risks (meaning less original titles and more Call of Duties) and publishers amping up their DLC/micro-transaction programs.

TomWiley:

Lilani:
Yeah, I mean we all know how much used and rental cars are dragging down the car industry.

Well, to be fair, that's not exactly a relevant comparison.

Why not? every other industry has to deal with people buying things used and I don't see say the movie industry saying it costs to much to make a movie and all those used copies floating around are killing them.

Bix96:

TomWiley:

Lilani:
Yeah, I mean we all know how much used and rental cars are dragging down the car industry.

Well, to be fair, that's not exactly a relevant comparison.

Why not? every other industry has to deal with people buying things used and I don't see say the movie industry saying it costs to much to make a movie and all those used copies floating around are killing them.

Well, you could always try and explain the similarities of renting a game and renting a car (besides, you know, them both being rentals). Also, I'd like to know what a used copy of a trip to the cinema looks like...

Oh, and one other thing: Dude Huge? What dark hole did that climb out of? Either I've missed something, or has CliffyB just adopted that name recently? Either way, it's ridiculous.

MarsProbe:
Well, you could always try and explain the similarities of renting a game and renting a car (besides, you know, them both being rentals).

Someone renting a game isn't buying it. Someone renting a car isn't buying it. In both cases, the original producer of the item has sold it to someone else who is making money by renting it to a third party. Can you perhaps now explain why this isn't a relevant comparison?

Also, I'd like to know what a used copy of a trip to the cinema looks like...

I take it you're unfamiliar with DVDs and the second hand market for them?

If I were to share my feelings on the games industry's continual attempts to squeeze as much money out of gamers as possible (usually with a bizarre 'it's better for you' justification)it would probably go on for a while. So, in the interest of being succinct; 'Cliffy' can do one.

Sledgimus:

MarsProbe:
Well, you could always try and explain the similarities of renting a game and renting a car (besides, you know, them both being rentals).

Someone renting a game isn't buying it. Someone renting a car isn't buying it. In both cases, the original producer of the item has sold it to someone else who is making money by renting it to a third party. Can you perhaps now explain why this isn't a relevant comparison?

Also, I'd like to know what a used copy of a trip to the cinema looks like...

I take it you're unfamiliar with DVDs and the second hand market for them?

Hmm, but would you rent a car as a substitute for actually purchasing one outright? Well, I suppose you could, but it would be incredibly inconvenient to have arrange a suitable hire car every time you need to do the shopping or pick the kids up from school. I imagine most car rentals occur when someone is on holiday/on a business trip away from home in a place where it would not be feasible to bring your own car but where you nonetheless require the convenience of having a car to drive. You were never going to buy a car while on your hols in the states for 2 weeks anyway, so what's the loss there? Or perhaps your normal ride is unavailable after wrapping itself around a tree and in the off chance your insurance policy doesn't include a courtesy car, you may need to hire a car if you really can't do without private transport.

DVDs though? Never heard of them. By the sounds of it, I don't see them catching on any time soon.

Seriously, why do people listen to Cliffy B? Just like he has in the past he essentially just stirs up the hornet's nest. Every one of his answers to gamer complaints are simply "suck it up".

Jim Sterling said it best, its not our fault that your bloated development cycles costs so much. That is whats wrong with gaming as of now. The industry always blames us as if we aren't the reason why they exist. Also factor in that if a used game market didn't exist I probably wouldn't have bought as many games new that I did. Especially as a kid because we weren't quite middle class so I couldn't just get someone to buy games without trades

TomWiley:

EclipseoftheDarkSun:

TomWiley:

That's a bit shortsighted, isn't it? If the AAA developers go out of business, game developers will lose their jobs which is never good for the industry. There are no studios that develop only AAA titles, and in a dev house it's common for developers to work on various different projects as once, which means that the death of a money generating AAA franchise can also mean the death of a whole lot of less famous but more original IP as the people in the dev house lose their jobs.

This "let's punish the content providers" mentality doesn't really work.

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Just as we shouldn't be over-supporting the car industry in Australia - if it'd fail without excessive consumer support, it's too big to exist. These developers will find new jobs. I can live without a few games if it means things are less draconian overall.

Developers losing their jobs leads to two things: Developers taking less risks (meaning less original titles and more Call of Duties) and publishers amping up their DLC/micro-transaction programs.

but when that happens then what? When the gaming industry crashed things became better. It sucked people lost their jobs but this is business. You punish the customer then the customer has every right to punish you even if they weren't punished they still have the right because its a consumer based business

TomWiley:

EclipseoftheDarkSun:

TomWiley:

That's a bit shortsighted, isn't it? If the AAA developers go out of business, game developers will lose their jobs which is never good for the industry. There are no studios that develop only AAA titles, and in a dev house it's common for developers to work on various different projects as once, which means that the death of a money generating AAA franchise can also mean the death of a whole lot of less famous but more original IP as the people in the dev house lose their jobs.

This "let's punish the content providers" mentality doesn't really work.

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Just as we shouldn't be over-supporting the car industry in Australia - if it'd fail without excessive consumer support, it's too big to exist. These developers will find new jobs. I can live without a few games if it means things are less draconian overall.

Developers losing their jobs leads to two things: Developers taking less risks (meaning less original titles and more Call of Duties) and publishers amping up their DLC/micro-transaction programs.

I thought they were already producing too many Call of Duties copies and micro-transactions.. Pardon me if I'm not moved by your argument. Let them and let's see where the chips land on that matter..

With a name like CliffyB...has anyone taken this guy seriously?

TomWiley:

EclipseoftheDarkSun:

TomWiley:

That's a bit shortsighted, isn't it? If the AAA developers go out of business, game developers will lose their jobs which is never good for the industry. There are no studios that develop only AAA titles, and in a dev house it's common for developers to work on various different projects as once, which means that the death of a money generating AAA franchise can also mean the death of a whole lot of less famous but more original IP as the people in the dev house lose their jobs.

This "let's punish the content providers" mentality doesn't really work.

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Just as we shouldn't be over-supporting the car industry in Australia - if it'd fail without excessive consumer support, it's too big to exist. These developers will find new jobs. I can live without a few games if it means things are less draconian overall.

Developers losing their jobs leads to two things: Developers taking less risks (meaning less original titles and more Call of Duties) and publishers amping up their DLC/micro-transaction programs.

Except even now, it is about making Call of Duty clones, and ever more DLC/Micro Transaction, It is better to cut off the infection, and work with what you have then to let it rot all the way and then hope there is something to save then.

FargoDog:
Unless Blenszinski is willing to pull out spreadsheets and numbers on exactly how used games will destroy the industry, and pull direct evidence on the PS4 that completely and faultlessly contradicts Sony's statements so far, he should probably shut the fuck up. More and more people are buying big-budget games. Nobody stops playing blockbuster titles and deeper experiences on their PC and/or console solely to play on their iPhone or tablet, but a lot of people will do it the other way around. There is not a finite amount of gamers out there. It's an ever expanding market with more and more people coming in with more and more varied tastes. Demanding the death of used games and rentals is a massive flashing highlight that you're just not trying hard enough.

I completely agree with what you are saying. That said, I can't help but feel like some producer/dev would see this and think that you want them to spend even more money on their games because that's what their idea of "not trying hard enough" is.

TomWiley:

Lilani:
Yeah, I mean we all know how much used and rental cars are dragging down the car industry.

Well, to be fair, that's not exactly a relevant comparison.

So then let's compare the rest of the entertainment industry's used sales. Books have used book stores. Netflix is a movie rental service. Neither of those are considered things that should be shut down in order to save their mediums. The only reason that games are different is because AAA games have fucking terrible budgets.

You can't dump millions of dollars into a game and then expect it to sell 5 million copies based on how much money you spent. You have to look at your game idea, decide what would be a reasonable amount of copies to expect to sell, and then budget based on that figure. That's just fucking common sense, and AAA has none.

TomWiley:

Lilani:
Yeah, I mean we all know how much used and rental cars are dragging down the car industry.

Well, to be fair, that's not exactly a relevant comparison.

So then let's compare the rest of the entertainment industry's used sales. Books have used book stores. Netflix is a movie rental service. Neither of those are considered things that should be shut down in order to save their mediums. The only reason that games are different is because AAA games have fucking terrible budgets.

You can't dump millions of dollars into a game and then expect it to sell 5 million copies based on how much money you spent. You have to look at your game idea, decide what would be a reasonable amount of copies to expect to sell, and then budget based on that figure. That's just fucking common sense, and AAA has none.

Did he really say "newsflash" in a non-ironic way? Jeez.

If you cannot make a profit with the development budget you have, lower your budget. If you cannot make a profit with the marketing budget you have, lower your budget. This is not hard to figure out. And if you do that, everyone wins. You CAN make the game you want to make with less money. I will say that as a fact. These budgets are stinking and bloated, and we can do without them.

Bashfluff:
You CAN make the game you want to make with less money. I will say that as a fact. These budgets are stinking and bloated, and we can do without them.

Hear hear. More Mojang, anyone?

Andy Farren:

Bashfluff:
You CAN make the game you want to make with less money. I will say that as a fact. These budgets are stinking and bloated, and we can do without them.

Hear hear. More Mojang, anyone?

Weirdly enough, I just fired up Minecraft.

What still sticks out to me (and drives me crazy) is the "more is better" theory of design. Good design doesn't just and doesn't necessarily mean more money, it means better planning, communication and understanding of the elements you're working with. And that goes for visuals, music, story, gameplay, all of it. If you wanna do a mega huge project, go for it, but build from a solid plan first. Then maybe you won't need to sell so many billions of copies just to break even.

Reduce development and marketing budgets. It's just that basic. The industry cannot sustain itself like this and publishers like EA and Square Enix have been complaining about it quite often recently. EA, 5 million copies of Dead Space 3? Square Enix with Sleeping Dogs, Hitman, and Tomb Raider failing to meet sales expectations because of budgets.

Reduce, adapt, and optimize development. While huge productions are amazing at times, when everything is the same, it only creates this snowball effect and for whatever reason, the publishers continue to ignore it.

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