CliffyB Thinks Used Games Are Bad, Sony is "Playing Us"

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So ridiculously bloated budgets are now somehow our problem?
This is exactly why the games industry is on the verge of crashing.
How about getting the budgets under control if the whole model isn't sustainable, what with games being resounding failures if they don't sell 4 million copies and such.

This coming from the guy with the small dick complex.

"The visual fidelity and feature sets we expect from games now come with sky high costs,"
No. The visual fidelity and feature sets YOU expect. I couldn't give two shits about visual fidelity. Besides bloated budgets and what not are YOUR problem, not the problem of used games or piracy or any other damn thing.

BernardoOne:

Baldr:

Armistice:
I'm sorry, I just don't understand why the video game industry thinks it should have some special exemption from used sales. When I buy a used car does the original manufacturer get a cut? When I sell an old tv to a friend does samsung get a cut? Besides, I fail to see why we are responsible for the budgets and costs of any game.

For the car example: Who is responsible for the gas, maintenance, and other necessities to keep the car running once it has left the lot? The TV manufacture is not responsible for the cable bill or other things to view on the TV. Why is the game publisher responsible for the service costs of the game?

Your analogy only works for games with online. And for that, there is a little thing called online pass.

There are service issues even for single player games. You still have to hire a customer support and QA team to take care of issues.

Cliff, heres an idea, free of charge:

dont spend so much fucking money!!!

Actually, you know what? that'll be $5...

Baldr:

Armistice:
I'm sorry, I just don't understand why the video game industry thinks it should have some special exemption from used sales. When I buy a used car does the original manufacturer get a cut? When I sell an old tv to a friend does samsung get a cut? Besides, I fail to see why we are responsible for the budgets and costs of any game.

For the car example: Who is responsible for the gas, maintenance, and other necessities to keep the car running once it has left the lot? The TV manufacture is not responsible for the cable bill or other things to view on the TV. Why is the game publisher responsible for the service costs of the game?

Because they are too dumb to let user host their own dedicated server for their game like a lot of game do on PC ?

Arawn:
It's just that simple. That or try not to spend so much money making a game where fishes move out of the way when you swing close to them, or dogs look so realistic you want to pet them. It's nice, but making something pretty isn't enough to keep people interested. A good story, multiple endings, various paths and choice, etc. Of course there's always making games cheaper so people don't sell them to buy a new one each time.

You know the really sad part of that? Mario 64 had fish that moved out of the way when the player swam near them.

Movies with higher budgets to make and lower costs to be able to see in a theater and own on DVD(or even blu-ray) are capable of turning a profit. You guys sell $60 products with rather low budgets in comparison to the movie industry, how are you incapable of turning a profit? Either you need to scale back, or make better games, because clearly you must be doing something wrong here. You're like the Movie executives for "Coupon: The Movie" on Mr. Show with Bob and David. I'm surprised he hasn't tried suing the American people for not buying enough of his new games. It's not his fault we aren't buying enough of his games, it's our fault.

Baresark:
He would lash out at Sony. MS is the only reason he has the fame to say what he is saying now.

Honestly, I think it has more to do with his marketable nickname. People like something short and snappy. If his surname was easier to write, he wouldn't get anywhere near the press even AS a major player.

I get that he had a hand in Unreal Tournament and such, but....

FizzyIzze:
Dear Fiscal Cliff,

I played about 2 hours of Gears of War and was bored the entire time. What I did like was Knights of the Old Republic, which I purchased USED because by the time I tried it out it was no longer on shelves. Guess what? I loved it so much I purchased KotOR II brand new. Which in turn led to:

(All new, none used)
Mass Effect (twice)
Dragon Age Origins
Dragon Age Origins Awakenings
Mass Effect 2 (twice)
Mass Effect 3

Used game sales can in reality, lead to new game purchases--because that's what I fucking did. Apologies that I refuse to support the crap shooters that are released, invariably, every year.

Honestly, this is the primary reason I buy used. And oddly enough, I don't buy used in competition with new titles. That is to say, if I'm buying a game used, it's probably not a new title to begin with (and might not even still be on shelves in the new section).

And further agreement: do you know what I don't buy? Gears of War games. Why don't I buy them? Used games? No. Rentals? No, though the fact that you can beat them in a rental period is probably why Cliff hates rentals. No, the reason I don't buy them is they're BORING, borderline unenjoyable experiences. I had fun with the first, but...Four games? No. Just...No.

Actually, he's probably lucky people remember him for Gears and UT, because when he steps off the tried and true....Yeah. Not pretty.

Baldr:

BernardoOne:

Baldr:

For the car example: Who is responsible for the gas, maintenance, and other necessities to keep the car running once it has left the lot? The TV manufacture is not responsible for the cable bill or other things to view on the TV. Why is the game publisher responsible for the service costs of the game?

Your analogy only works for games with online. And for that, there is a little thing called online pass.

There are service issues even for single player games. You still have to hire a customer support and QA team to take care of issues.

I think I see the point you're making, Baldr, and its one I hadn't considered to be honest. I suppose it makes my comparisons not really hold up well. Though I will say I do think it is the publisher's responsibility to make a game both worth buying new and kept to a budget it can cover with reasonable unit numbers sold.

Baldr:
There are service issues even for single player games. You still have to hire a customer support and QA team to take care of issues.

Assuming that applies, there's one problem with that. If I sell a game, I no longer have any use for their customer support and/or QA people.

In other words, no matter what happens, only one person is ever consuming their service. That means the service for that disc/license has already been paid for. It does not matter who currently holds that license. One license has been paid for, therefore they have been paid to provide one person those services. Since only one person can hold the disc, there can only ever be one person that consumes their service.

Therefore, they need to stop demanding more money to provide the service they've already been paid for.

I don't like this guy. He favors a bunch of stupid practices that only hurt everyone in the industry. If he honestly thinks that eliminating the used game market is a good idea, and that allowing budgets to balloon more is an even better idea, he should not be allowed to manage the money because he is quite clearly irresponsible with said cash. One of the problems with the industry is the fact that budgets have ballooned, and has to be countered. Attempting to steal ownership rights way from the consumer is only going to make more problems in the future.

klaynexas3:
Movies with higher budgets to make and lower costs to be able to see in a theater and own on DVD(or even blu-ray) are capable of turning a profit.

Movies also reach a larger audience, if we're being fair and honest here.

Zachary Amaranth:

klaynexas3:
Movies with higher budgets to make and lower costs to be able to see in a theater and own on DVD(or even blu-ray) are capable of turning a profit.

Movies also reach a larger audience, if we're being fair and honest here.

Even so, with $60 per copy of a new game, and how many games are sold within a week of AAA releases, there is a profit somewhere, and I don't know if Cliffy is hiding it somewhere, but he's making more money than he cares to confess.

Where is this extra money supposed to come from? What do you think people do with the money they get selling games? People have a limited budget to buy games with, if they can't sell them they'll just buy fewer games, or pirate. The people involved in used games are already putting as much spare income as they're willing to into this hobby. Tell me, who is providing this magical extra money you need to market your game? Since you want to talk about numbers that don't work, how about you DON'T SPEND MORE MONEY MARKETING THE GAME THAN DEMAND FOR THE GAME CAN SUSTAIN? If your business model is unsustainable, that's your business' fault, not your customers'. Don't be running your mouth off about numbers until you've learned to put two and two together!

Agayek:

Baldr:
There are service issues even for single player games. You still have to hire a customer support and QA team to take care of issues.

Assuming that applies, there's one problem with that. If I sell a game, I no longer have any use for their customer support and/or QA people.

In other words, no matter what happens, only one person is ever consuming their service. That means the service for that disc/license has already been paid for. It does not matter who currently holds that license. One license has been paid for, therefore they have been paid to provide one person those services. Since only one person can hold the disc, there can only ever be one person that consumes their service.

Therefore, they need to stop demanding more money to provide the service they've already been paid for.

Wow, that's also a really excellent point. Another reason I'm skeptical of this whole product to service transition. I don't know I always buy games new because I want to support games being made that I think are worth buying fully so I don't really have a lot of experience buying used or with its long-term consequences.

Lunar Templar:
I know he's worked in the games industry a long time an all, but he's still managed to some how NOT know what the fuck he's talking about.

it's admirable in a way, and sad in another.

the only reason costs are so high is because of one thing they have control over, marketing, pretty much every one save a few devs have let it get so out of had we hear things like 'Dead Space needs to sell 5 million to stay viable' and this asshole is part of that problem.

If they didn't spends millions upon millions more then they needed to on marketing, for games most people have already made up there minds on no less, no one would even care about 'the evils of used games'

Actually, I don't find it admirable at all, just sad.

It's not just marketing that makes it overly expensive. Among other things, it's the idea that you need "top-tier" graphics in order to make a successful game. If a game were kick-ass in the first place, it wouldn't matter if each character had physics calculations determining where each bloody *strand* of hair should fall on their shoulders when they walk or fire a gun.

Baldr:

BernardoOne:

Baldr:

For the car example: Who is responsible for the gas, maintenance, and other necessities to keep the car running once it has left the lot? The TV manufacture is not responsible for the cable bill or other things to view on the TV. Why is the game publisher responsible for the service costs of the game?

Your analogy only works for games with online. And for that, there is a little thing called online pass.

There are service issues even for single player games. You still have to hire a customer support and QA team to take care of issues.

Irrelevant. The money that is spent on that is pennies compared to what they get from sales.(and not every game has customer support btw) It does not justify, at all, the blocking of used games. Consumers who actually use customer support -> 0,0001% of the buyers. Besides, used games do pay more than enough money to get customer support. See dlc sales. Many people who buy used actually get a lot of the dlc because they fot the game for cheap. Used game blocking is a solution for a inexistent problem. The problem with the industry is unrealistic expectations and budgets. If Tomb Raider, from a franchise that has long lost its importance, sells 3 millions in a month and it is deemed a failure........ believe me, the problem is not in the used games. Furthermore, EA,Ubisoft and Sony, all recently spoke against used game blocking.

Okay, y'know what, I know a couple-dozen people have already said this, but I'm just gonna' go ahead and say it again, since it really is worth repeating on the off-chance Cliffy, or some other industry head-honcho reads this thread;

You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing,

THEN LOWER YOUR GODDAMN BUDGETS THEN!!!

Captcha: stony-hearted
That I am, captcha, that I am.

FizzyIzze:
Dear Fiscal Cliff,

I played about 2 hours of Gears of War and was bored the entire time. What I did like was Knights of the Old Republic, which I purchased USED because by the time I tried it out it was no longer on shelves. Guess what? I loved it so much I purchased KotOR II brand new. Which in turn led to:

(All new, none used)
Mass Effect (twice)
Dragon Age Origins
Dragon Age Origins Awakenings
Mass Effect 2 (twice)
Mass Effect 3

Used game sales can in reality, lead to new game purchases--because that's what I fucking did. Apologies that I refuse to support the crap shooters that are released, invariably, every year.

Unfortunately, Mr. Bleszinski seems to have bought into the mainstream gaming industry's primary equation: (budget x hype) = sales. There's no room in there for understanding how customers think, no comprehension of stories like yours; in their minds, even if gamers buy and hate GenMilShoEMU (Generic Military Shoot-Em-Up) 2, if GenMilShoEMU 3 comes in a slick-enough package with enough whiz-bang commercials and Mountain Dew / Doritos contests, those gamers will buy it anyway. And they believe that, without the ability to buy the game used or rent / borrow it, those same gamers will buy it on release day for full price.

These beliefs are wholly divorced from reality- sorry, Cliffy, but if I think your $60 is only worth $20, I'll either wait until it goes on sale or just not buy it at all- and another sign that the mainstream gaming industry is bound and determined to dig its own grave.

frizzlebyte:

Lunar Templar:
I know he's worked in the games industry a long time an all, but he's still managed to some how NOT know what the fuck he's talking about.

it's admirable in a way, and sad in another.

the only reason costs are so high is because of one thing they have control over, marketing, pretty much every one save a few devs have let it get so out of had we hear things like 'Dead Space needs to sell 5 million to stay viable' and this asshole is part of that problem.

If they didn't spends millions upon millions more then they needed to on marketing, for games most people have already made up there minds on no less, no one would even care about 'the evils of used games'

Actually, I don't find it admirable at all, just sad.

It's not just marketing that makes it overly expensive. Among other things, it's the idea that you need "top-tier" graphics in order to make a successful game. If a game were kick-ass in the first place, it wouldn't matter if each character had physics calculations determining where each bloody *strand* of hair should fall on their shoulders when they walk or fire a gun.

I knew I was forgetting something when I hammered that out, so thanks for the correction.

I think I know of a simple solution, don't have games cost bajillons of dollers just so they can look slightly prettier.

I seriously don't think people understand that CliffyB's favorite past time especially since retiring is trolling people on tweeter.

So Sony is straight up lying? Evidence please.

Steven Bogos:
Cliff "CliffyB" Bleszinski: "You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing,"

Now Mr. B, I would like to review some of these basic concepts. Which part of that equation do you control? That's right, the budgets. Now which part don't you control? Good, the used and rental games. So which part should you be trying to change? ...

I think I'll sign you up for the remedial lessons.

Wait? Who's being played? Cliffy B's argument is entirely circular, in that the massive costs for these games is mostly extraneous to the games themselves, ie it is the marketing, PR, licensing, etc which racks up the expenditure. That's not to mention to huge salaries going to upper management in many of these companies. They are certainly not feeling the pinch. If these extravagances and inefficiencies were cleared up, games would be significantly less expensive to put out there.

And after all, marketing is only a method of inviting sales through appeals to sheer popularity, NOT the actual worth of the product itself. A brilliant game need not have billions wasted in advertising, gifts and travel for journalists and PR, huge parties, cross media promotions and so on, for it to sell well. Sales targets are therefore largely to recoup the costs of selling, not creation and manufacture. It's as ass backwards and circular as Cliffy B's argument.

Also, just a thought about the home video industry, which seems to be doing OK without resorting to the destruction of consumer property rights, sharing and second hand. Most movies cost significantly more to put out there than a video game. Perhaps, if Cliffy B wanted to think outside the box, he'd offer alternatives which mirror the 'Box Office' period of any film's release, which is when those films tend to recoup much, if not all of their costs.

Instead Cliffy B is toeing the corporate line in further tormenting the current whipping boy of game publishers. Console makers themselves should be glad of any sale which results in a purchase of their hardware.

Steven Bogos:

Bleszinkski went on to explain his stance, saying that games have gotten so big that there is just no way the next generation can survive if the used game and game rental markets keep taking a cut. "The visual fidelity and feature sets we expect from games now come with sky high costs," he says, "Assassins Creed games are made by thousands of devs."

GOOD. Then let the next generation DIE for all I care anymore!!! Let it burn to the ground into a pile of ashes and let smaller independent houses take the place of the bloated corrupt money grubbing creatively bankrupt non risk taking piece of shit bastards.

I'm so tired of these companies trying to take away my right to own, my right to buy a used product, my right to sell a product I purchased with my hard earned money, my right to use a product without having to be mainlined like a heroin addict 24-7 to the internet to keep tabs on me. I'm tired of it all. And I know this will only get worse and stem out to other products if we let it go unchecked. I'm just sick and tired and disgusted at these foul disgusting deceptive people.

Hey Cliffy. Why don't you go grab an XBone and jump off a cliff. ok?

Steven Bogos:
Dude Huge claims that it is impossible for used games and game rentals to co-exist in this world of massive marketing and production budgets.

GUYS DEVELOPERS CAN'T MAKE OVERPRODUCED REHASH IF YOU DON'T GIVE THEM A TON OF MONEY FOR THE REST OF ETERNITY.

Shitty, overproduced, rehash games..... or allow for trading?

I don't know dude, hard decision.

Seems like the problem is the budgets of your shitty games that are lacking in any sort of creativity and supplant anything interesting with pompous flair. Market and budget responsibly. No one wants your 8 hour chest high wall run for $100.

Good thing I (and the rest of the sane consumers) don't give two shits what this tool thinks.

There's only one Dude whose words we should pay attention to:

Seriously, CliffyB can kiss the fattest part of my ass. I find it quite hilarious that small-time companies and indie devs can make a game at a fraction of the cost of a AAA game and have it sell like gangbusters. That fact alone disproves the entire basis of his argument. Massive Budget most certainly does not equate to Quality Game. Look at Portal. You go through a series of rooms based around a single game mechanic and the various things you can do with it...and it was one of the greatest games most of us had ever played. Simplicity has its merits, and injecting more and more money into something just so "holy fucking shit the water looks so REAL!" is actually a very poor way to expect to make money. You could make the most stunningly beautiful game in the world, but that doesn't mean jack shit if the game itself is total crap...just means you wasted a crap-ton of money on a big shiny piece of shit.

Case in point, I'll point to the example he brought up. Yeah, the AC games are expensive as hell to make. Seeing as how the credits go on for an hour and a half after each one of'em, that certainly is a LOT of paychecks going out. It's just too bad the last 3 of'em have been complete and utter shit.

Cliffy B:
"You cannot have game and marketing budgets this high while also having used and rental games existing,"

Well then you should lower your budgets. Seems obvious to me.

Gee, with all these crippling triple-A budgeted games trending the industry towards the drain, us poor consumers will be forced to buy more Triple-B or C games such as XCOM, Mark of the Ninja, The Swapper, Lone Survivor, Amnesia, or Thomas Was Alone!

What ever shall we do with these poor choices?!

Armistice:
I'm sorry, I just don't understand why the video game industry thinks it should have some special exemption from used sales. When I buy a used car does the original manufacturer get a cut? When I sell an old tv to a friend does samsung get a cut? Besides, I fail to see why we are responsible for the budgets and costs of any game.

Do yourself a favor, dont ever use that argument again, you will just end up looking foolish.

Your average modern TV has a lifespan measured in maybe single digit years, and your car requires gas, parts, ect and will eventually just fall apart on you, a game will work forever if you have even two braincells to rub together when it comes to handling the things.

As for the OT: Used games are the same as piracy. They are a big bad boogy man but in reality they effect very little.

TheAmazingTGIF:
"Huge budgets make used games a bad thing!"
You know what the problem is? THE HUGE BUDGETS.

Gamers demand bigger and bigger games. More and more people, all with HIGH DEMAND skill sets that are VERY FEW in number, make up the high budgets.

Gamers are not in the clear here, its our demands that also fueled this hell we are in.

I generally don't mind Cliff but he seriously needs to consider what he says before he says it sometimes. Perhaps if devs quit putting all their eggs into one basket it won't have to nickel and dime us. Seriously, Jim Sterling makes a great point. Don't put high budgets into games that aren't a guaranteed sell.

Does this guy just like being contrary to what people are thinking?

I mean, he says SOME reasonable things at times. But the stupid shit he says just makes him look like an egotistical nutjob.

"Assassins Creed games are made by thousands of devs."

And they're still shit Cliff.

"The visual fidelity and feature sets we expect from games now come with sky high costs,"

Uhh. Cliff didn't you say that Microsoft and Sony should open up their consoles to users and independent game makers? The indie developers who DONT REQUIRE large costs? Oh you know what, nevermind, you said this also:

"It is up to Epic, and [Epic CEO] Tim Sweeney in particular, to motivate Sony and Microsoft not to phone in what these next consoles are going to be. It needs to be a quantum leap. They need to damn near render Avatar in real time, because I want it and gamers want it-even if they don't know they want it."

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