Former Dev: WoW Has Killed the MMO Genre

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 NEXT
 

This guy pretty much nails it. It's one thing FFXI did extremely well back in its heyday. For better or for worse, the journey was long and arduous in that game, but it meant your gear mattered and you took in the world. Once you finally got to end game, it was still all there and the progression from there was anything but straight forward. To this day there are still pieces of gear from the first couple expansions that are still relevant and even Best-In-Slot in some cases.

The mad rush I see in MMOs now just makes it kind of bland and forgettable more often than not.

BloodSquirrel:

BigTuk:

It could be worse and there's still a chance for turn around. See WoW needs to remember the fundamental rule of RPG's, you want to have a tangible effect on the world you're in... WoW no longer does that, it never did actually. Rather than craft boss raids, they would be better served putting in a mechanic that would allow players to seize new territory for their faction and hold it... maybe allow players to determine key narrative points. I mean seriously, who actually wanted Hellscream as Warchief, even if it wound up as hellscream giving the player some chance to affect the outcome would have been a real coup.

That's a far bigger change to WoW's fundamental structure than they could really get away with doing. They've implemented PvP zones that could be "held" by one faction or the other, but there's not much point to them if you're just trying to get into heroics.

This is true... this is quite true which goes back to the problem. They essentially focused on the playerset that loves to raid and funnily enough that demographic is shrinking. The territory control may be a bit much but slowing down levelling may help a bit... or just as effective make rare and uncommon items actually rare and uncommon or better yet, start making things based on skill rather than random chance (like if your role is tank in a dungeon you're scored on how much damage is incurred by the rest of your party, among other factors, get a great score and you get a nice items, (maybe even a rare). Do badly and you get nothing.

I don't know why the founders of WoW would blame themselves for what happened to the genre. There wasn't any other game out before World of Warcraft that attempted to cater to the audience like it did, and even the most successful games at the time still showed the game industry was a small time business.

It's kind of like a popular home builder blaming himself for the formation of the housing market bubble ten years later.

When I started playing MMO's back in 99 with Asheron's Call, there wasn't a right or a wrong way to play an MMO, you were simply playing a game. You would grind to level up, but hitting that next level was the the sense of accomplishment at the time. Heck even WoW was like that for me for a long time, I'd level by myself, do some dungeons with friends, but there wasn't any "checklist" of gear that you "had to have".

Once Burning Crusade came out, all of my friends and I jumped on the level train and tried to level up as fast as we could, and that was where the wheels started to come off. We still have fun playing together, but the you must to A, before B, and C before D, exposed the treadmill. I quit for a little while and then came back for Frozen Throne, and had fun with that for a while, until we got to the hard core end game.

Looking at it today, or any MMO for that matter now, I only see the game as being about the end game, and not the game leading up to that point. So now I'm forced to grind out levels so that I can then go play the end game content and grind that content and commitment so that I can then do more of the same. Look I like playing my games, I play them as much as time allows, but I have to play on my time, and once I felt like I was forced to play a given way at a given time with a set timing based on youtube how to videos, it started to lose it's fun.

In the end I played WoW off and on for like 5 years, but I can't see myself ever playing another MMO just because they all share the same model that WoW created. For the most part it was fun, but now feeling like it's only a giant skinner box, I can't see myself ever going back to an MMO. Which is a shame because I liked the just playing the game randomly with my friends.

Strazdas:
if you dont like endgame, make mmos without such ridiculous concepts like level caps. oh wiat, there already are plenty, and their popular. so whats your point again?
yes, wow has killed the MMO genre by making it mainstream and now your niche game cant cut its own part unless it becomes imaginative and unique, how terrible that you have to invest some work and not just have people flock to you simply due to lack of choice. i pity you, truly, for you have not found the monopoly that you expected in MMOs.

You just have to pick the right MMOs and you will see that there is aboslutely no need to be a WOW clone to be sucesful.

re-reading the article:

"FORMER WOW DEV: WOW HAS KILLED THE MMO GENRE"

It's isn't some offshoot MMO developer, its a guy who did work on WoW. SO I'm guessing it's safe to assume he would know a bit more about the mmo genre than most people.

He is right though, look at the endless lists of MMO's, about a good quarter are some form of WoW clone, do I even NEED to mention "World of LORDcraft"? New MMO's already have an uphill battle to get people interested, but with WoW that hill becomes a Morpheus ring and you end up going uphill while upside down.

The reason is simple, People played World of Warcraft. They expect the game to hold their hand and tell them "YOU ARE WINNAR" every time they complete a fetch 500 murlock ass quest. The second they have any actual challenge they cry how unfair the game is, how it's a casual mmo, bitching about actually going out on their own.

I would love to see people play Ultima Online before it got nerfed beyond hell.

Oh, you're putting something in your bank? well, that thief just stole all your health pots AND your weapon and is beating you to death with them because you are too stupid to pay attention.

I miss MMO's that actually wouldn't hold your hand all the way through the game like some over obsessive mother taking her 28 year old son out to the park.

But that is alright, there are a few non carebear MMO's out there, and we keep our social pool thoroughly cleansed from the unwashed WoW masses.

I can't relate. Maybe it's just because I love Star Wars, but I miss Galaxies. :(

While he's right, what he has to realize is leveling can still be fun for new players. My friend recently got WoW and he's having a blast leveling up. He's not doing it ultra fast, he's exploring a lot and taking his time to know his class and do some low lvl PvP.

Then you take players like me, who have been playing since Vanilla and it's just ridiculous to assume we're still going to find leveling fun. I have 4 max lvl characters and I've seen just about every quest there is to see, every single zone, every dungeon, every "secret" area. You just can't expect anybody who's played for more than 2 years (and it's quite a few) to still be invested in the leveling scene.

Is the leveling too fast and trivialized? Yes. But only when you know that end game is where the game is truly at. I'm hiding this from my friend so that he maintains his innocence and levels at his own pace. That in itself is a problem but I enjoy WoW and have for many years. I'm hoping Blizzard finally shakes things up with the new expansion but I'm not holding my breath. I've quit before and I'm not opposed to quitting again but at the moment I feel the game is fine.

RJ 17:

"Sometimes I look at WoW and think 'what have we done? ... "And it worked. Players came in droves, millions of them. But at what cost?"

I got a REALLY good laugh out of these two lines. Not because I disagree with the guy, far from it. It's just I can picture these lines being said in the opening voice-over to some post-apocalyptic movie.

Really I think this guy is spot-on with his description of things. After being with WoW from it's original launch till the end of BC (shortly after Lich King launched, to be exact), he touches on one of the main reasons I finally stopped playing the game, specifically the bit about equipment in the new expansions' starting quests being obscenely overpowered in relative terms to what you had before. Think of the countless hours you spent raiding to get the awesome gear you had. I was a warlock player and I put in a LOT of time to get a full Felheart set at the end of WoW's original game...only to find it laughably inadequate when compared to the quest rewards you got in the opening quests for BC. I didn't get Lich King right away, but seeing the gear my guildmates were getting from the opening quest effectively negated all the work I had done in the previous expansion. Hours upon hours of playing the game all reduced to meaningless "You really should have done something better with your time" waste...so I was done with the game. Why bother leveling up to get to the end game and get all the epic lewt when a couple years down the line it's going to be made into a joke once the new expansion hits?

That's relative from person to person. I appreciate my efforts in, say, WoW, because when I look back at the BC and WOTLK expansions, I remember good times, not epic loot. That's the thing, the padding to all MMO's is going to be material to some degree, but what you do with it is entirely up to you. Yeah, I raided, yeah I ran dungeons a bunch, yeah the leveling was leveling was leveling, but the stuff that was inbetween, especially the stuff with the players and friends is what made for the good time, not the 1337 l00tz. Much like anything else that's virtual, its value is entirely up to how much you invest in it.

This isn't to say that your opinion isn't valid, but that's not the attitude a lot of people have about the game.

OT:
WoW is weird. I can't reasonably disagree with this guy but neither can I fully agree. I nostalgia (that's right VERBS MOTHERFUCKER) over vanilla and BC, and the experience, and the leveling, and the questing and so on and so forth, and a lot of it is actually -true-. I was immersed, I was drowning in the game. I was, also, younger. A lot of it was new, a lot of it was completely unseen before by me. Warcraft 3 is what drove me to WoW. Now? Well, I don't know. The Cata newb-zone redesign is really fun in most places. I was actually interested in the quest lines, but not the overall feeling of them. I was entertained, but it was often so tongue-in-cheek that the whole factor of "looking back" was entirely devalued. Did I think Horatio Lane in Westfall was too fucking funny? Yes. Does it mean anything to me two years down the line? Well...

As far as WoW having killed a whole genre, hah, well, maybe. I would argue that the "WoW Killers" killed the MMO genre. WoW is just the cause because its own success made it look like an infallible model worth imitating, which is simply not true. The magic that WoW rode can't really be retraced.

I guess I'll try out Firefall, but I have no great expectations of MMO's anymore. It's just not healthy.

DugMachine:

Is the leveling too fast and trivialized? Yes. But only when you know that end game is where the game is truly at. I'm hiding this from my friend so that he maintains his innocence and levels at his own pace.

You're a good person. Just wanted to throw that out there. :D

shadowmagus:

Yarrow:
I think a mmo that focuses on the 'journey' and not the endgame would suffer at the hands of those WoW trained players who somehow manage to rapidly burn through the all the contend in a week then bitch of forums about it. I seriously don't understand how people are able to get though content so fast unless they ignore all lore and the experience of the game.

As a regular MMO player, I can tell you that this is exactly what they do. They have it so ingrained in them that they HAVE to get to endgame and they HAVE to get that awesome gear that they blow through the main quest as fast as possible, going so far as to get a friend or guild to run them through on their first character. It completely kills the idea of what an MMO is supposed to be about, but this normally brings in the "I paid my money, so I can play how I want" crowd, never realizing they are missing the point of the whole thing.

I remember being in a guild well over 10,000 Strong and only a very small minority did what you are saying. Most (including me), took time to level and enjoyed grouping together.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I am sure there are thousands of players that rush through content to get to End-Game (I have to say that I did the same back in Wrath of the Lich King), but they are generally a small minority and rarely do they do it more than once, unless they are part of the "HARDCORE RAIDERZ" crowd.

OT: No, they didn't kill MMO's. They didn't ruin the genre. I am enjoying myself very much in recent MMO's such as Guild Wars 2 and Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. You don't have to be innovative to make a great game.

Dragonbums:
I fail to see how WoW in general ruined the MMO genre.

That's like saying CoD ruined the shooter genre.

Snip

But COD did ruin the shooter genre. Its so insanely popular everything is compared to it and developers want to recreate its success. Instead of making unique games, they take the elements of COD and try to rearrange them into something new. But the people who like COD already own it, so they see knock off games as unnecessary.

WOW is like that. Its too popular, too accessible. MMORPGs have to copy some aspects of it simply to get investors and corporate to agree with it. No one will green light a project if you point to a money-cow like WOW and say "we're not doing that." They would laugh you out of the board room. But the problem is WOW already has the throne. Its already on top and nothing short of shutting down the entire game, servers and all, will dethrone it. and Blizzard would never do that. They'd get sued out the ass by 2-3 million gamers within a month. WOW is like the rabid sleeping wolf in the room. So long as everyone is silent and still, it wont wake up. But try to move and create your own unique MMO, and it wakes up and turns a nice little dining room into an abattoir.

I'll second all that. As a retired WoW vet, the gradual change to race-to-lvl-80+ purged leveling of any sense of reward or progress. Mounts at lvl 20 instead of 40? Xp piling up so fast that a zone would become xp and gear obsolete before you even finished that 1 region, let alone the other 2 or three at that level. All to rush people to an end game that I suspect is the primary source of WoW burnouts.

May as well reminisce about the days before Dungeon Finder. You had to spam Trade, region chats and all the current party's guilds and contacts to round up a full party to do instances then physically transport at least 2 of you to the entrance to start summonings (hope you have that flight path) and hope an ally/horde party didn't leave/enter the thing to gank and camp you. It was a chaotic, time absorbing mess but for all the suffering it caused, the trial gave a successful instance run a real air of accomplishment. Now it is all insta-teleporting auto-queing and meaningless. Easy. Far too easy.

WoW... really many seem to not read the article at all!!!

I completely agree with this guy, I played WoW for about 6 months, 3 of which were Burning Crusade.
I was/am a HUGE WarcraftIII fan and wanted to continue the lore.

The highest level I ever achieved was 45 (Priest) and even getting to that (max level was 50, later raised to 60 back then while I was playing) I felt a bit of achievement.

My problem with MMOs is that I get so easily distracted from the "main objective" and usually just running around exploring and gathering useless shit (RolePlaying was my thing in MMOs). So my last month I went from 42-45, ONE MONTH! I felt like I couldn't play the game correctly and all my friends were talking about the epic battles they did with big groups etc. I wanted to be a part of that but just playing an hour or two a day wasn't going to get me there.

The epicness in the stories of my friends was great to listen to, like I had ones beaten Illidan, Mannoroth and Archimond in Warcraft III. But I also felt the open world of WoW did not fit the storytelling ways of Warcraft, it was too open, which is why I eventually quit.

So I think WoW is too easy, there is no sense of achievement amongs my friends who still play since they can play through the boss and 2 weeks later 70% of the players have killed the same boss, it was epic before to go to youtube and see the first group who succeeded in taking down the big bad guy 3 months after the patch was released. WoW has also changed a lot lately but the "hardcore" groups who play together finish the bosses a lot earlier these days and abck in the early days of WoW.

I think it's nice for the "casual" players to be able to get the epic feeling of these battles but for me it was a bigger charm that only the elite of the players, who spent a lot of time on the game could actually say they'd done something only 2 or 3 % of the whole community had achieved.

Kalezian:

re-reading the article:

"FORMER WOW DEV: WOW HAS KILLED THE MMO GENRE"

It's isn't some offshoot MMO developer, its a guy who did work on WoW. SO I'm guessing it's safe to assume he would know a bit more about the mmo genre than most people.

He is right though, look at the endless lists of MMO's, about a good quarter are some form of WoW clone, do I even NEED to mention "World of LORDcraft"? New MMO's already have an uphill battle to get people interested, but with WoW that hill becomes a Morpheus ring and you end up going uphill while upside down.

The reason is simple, People played World of Warcraft. They expect the game to hold their hand and tell them "YOU ARE WINNAR" every time they complete a fetch 500 murlock ass quest. The second they have any actual challenge they cry how unfair the game is, how it's a casual mmo, bitching about actually going out on their own.

I would love to see people play Ultima Online before it got nerfed beyond hell.

Oh, you're putting something in your bank? well, that thief just stole all your health pots AND your weapon and is beating you to death with them because you are too stupid to pay attention.

I miss MMO's that actually wouldn't hold your hand all the way through the game like some over obsessive mother taking her 28 year old son out to the park.

But that is alright, there are a few non carebear MMO's out there, and we keep our social pool thoroughly cleansed from the unwashed WoW masses.

A former WOW develper can still be wrong about judging whole MMO audience though. yes, he probably know more than most people, he does not know everything. Youd thing a developer of the second msot selling console would know its audience, but i disgress.....

Yes, there are plenty of wow clones, plenty of COD clones, plenty of SC clones, plenty of Angry Birds clones, see the point? and yet it is somehow only MMOs that suffer from it.
What i pointed out is that you dont have to be a wow clone to be popular. Eve online, wold of tanks, and the like did it fine. heck, the very first graphic MMO (Tibia) is still running and it has no level cap or endgame.
And a good developer has said: i would rather have my players annoyed than bored. and it worked for him.
Ultima at the begining was.... raw..... i had no internet back then so only glimpses of that that i know, but yeah. still, you are taking an extreme to prove the opposite extreme, and neither is good.
yes, i remmeber playing Tibia, dieing 3 times in one day, and what do you know, the whole progress i reached in last month is obliterated. But yeah, i think modern MMos are WAY too forgiving. what is this you dont even losoe exp when you die, what stupidity is this.
carebear comment made me think you play eve.

I always read every new quest that I'm doing for the first time, and I still stop every now and then the look around. So no, people like me will keep doing this, and others who just run through the game never gave a shit about it in the first place anyway.

Isn't having a fantastic leveling experience and great story but no focus on the end game precisely what killed Star Wars TOR's numbers around 6 months after release?

Silentpony:

Dragonbums:
I fail to see how WoW in general ruined the MMO genre.

That's like saying CoD ruined the shooter genre.

Snip

But COD did ruin the shooter genre. Its so insanely popular everything is compared to it and developers want to recreate its success. Instead of making unique games, they take the elements of COD and try to rearrange them into something new. But the people who like COD already own it, so they see knock off games as unnecessary.

WOW is like that. Its too popular, too accessible. MMORPGs have to copy some aspects of it simply to get investors and corporate to agree with it. No one will green light a project if you point to a money-cow like WOW and say "we're not doing that." They would laugh you out of the board room. But the problem is WOW already has the throne. Its already on top and nothing short of shutting down the entire game, servers and all, will dethrone it. and Blizzard would never do that. They'd get sued out the ass by 2-3 million gamers within a month. WOW is like the rabid sleeping wolf in the room. So long as everyone is silent and still, it wont wake up. But try to move and create your own unique MMO, and it wakes up and turns a nice little dining room into an abattoir.

Someone already posted a video on the subject. WoW never demanded that everyone follow in it's footsteps. WoW, never went out of it's way to rip apart any MMO that didn't follow it's formula. It was business suits and investors that made MMO's as they are. Nobody wants to invest in a game if it isn't WoW. Not Blizzards fault. They just made a hugely successful game. However the rest of the industry decided that WoW sales are supposed to be the new norm. Despite the fact that it's own success was abnormal.

I don't agree with the idea it's WoW that killed the genre. WoW took the model of end-game content being important and pumping out expansion after expansion from Everquest.

And I can tell you, grinding out levels in the Everquest days were BOOOOORRRIIIINNGGG. I remember gunning for lvl 22 on an enchanter because it meant I finally got a somewhat useful buff.

Compare that to running deadmines, or any of the quests in Westfall, no comparison. WoW was the better product.

If the majority of WoW's content is effectively skipped (which is sad b/c instances like Scarlet Monastery and Uldamon were my favorites), than why not scale these zones to your level?

I played pretty high level running MC and BWL with my guild every week for a time, plus PvP grinding and I still made time to screw around in instances like deadmines or BRD just because they were so cool.

TLDR: scale content to the players. that way if you miss it once you're high level, you can go back and experience it.

Fordo:
I don't agree with the idea it's WoW that killed the genre. WoW took the model of end-game content being important and pumping out expansion after expansion from Everquest.

And I can tell you, grinding out levels in the Everquest days were BOOOOORRRIIIINNGGG. I remember gunning for lvl 22 on an enchanter because it meant I finally got a somewhat useful buff.

Compare that to running deadmines, or any of the quests in Westfall, no comparison. WoW was the better product.

If the majority of WoW's content is effectively skipped (which is sad b/c instances like Scarlet Monastery and Uldamon were my favorites), than why not scale these zones to your level?

I played pretty high level running MC and BWL with my guild every week for a time, plus PvP grinding and I still made time to screw around in instances like deadmines or BRD just because they were so cool.

TLDR: scale content to the players. that way if you miss it once you're high level, you can go back and experience it.

Good old EQ. THAT was a game that knew how to get the most out of the leveling experience. "Wandered too close to an opposing faction's outpost? Grats, you just died, lost 6 hours of grinding worth of exp and are now naked 4 zones away and have to run a nude monster gauntlet just to loot your own gear off of your own body. Hope you don't die again! Muhaha!" "P.S., Train to zone, VS is with them and I'm coming left!"

WoW hasn't changed the players expectations by introducing fast leveling, they merely reacted to what players already wanted.

The reason why people want to get to the "endgame" is precisely because they feel like worrying overly about gear that you'll just replace a day later is a waste of their time. It also severely hampers you when you want to play an MMO with friends if you have to force yourself to stay the same level that they are so you can reasonably adventure together. Once you hit max level you can play with everyone else who's max level, and players naturally want to hang out in the largest part of the community.

Levels spread out and divide the community, they artificially restrict you from really exploring the world, they take away a lot of what makes an open world appealing. Players instinctively know this, which is why they want to escape the level system.

The problem is that pretty much all MMOs have responded by making leveling faster, instead of just realizing they should either ditch leveling all together, and create a horizontal progression path, or change the leveling system in such a way that a level 1 character can meaningfully participate in the adventures of a level 100 character. I remember Ultima Online, even a character only hours old in UO could throw a healing spell on the most badass character in the realm and help him out that way. Sure, being that weak in a dangerous area was harrowing, but it was possible.

Firefall is one of those games that try their best to kind of give you the best of both worlds, but in all honesty, it just kind of falls flat. There isn't enough to do in Firefall to really work as a game that doesn't guide you along with levels, and the fact that your character has no real identity but is just any random guy in a suit makes it boring to play from a sandbox standpoint. Sandbox is all about player generated content, but you can't even generate a unique character in Firefall. All the random content that pops up in it is obnoxious to deal with. Towns get attacked, which is cool, I can totally get behind that, but more often than not you have to run 10-15 minutes to get there and by the time you show up someone else has already taken care of it.
The irony is that the main motivation to do anything in Firefall is leveling up your frames and finding the resources to upgrade them, which feels like a huge pointless grind, especially since it's one of those games that goes "Well why would people keep digging for resources if they already have the best gear? Oh oh, I know! Because their gear breaks and they have to make more of it" ...

I really wish someone would make an MMO where the reason I keep playing is the adventure. The problem is that every time someone tries to copy UOs approach to MMOs the only thing they focus on is PKing and losing gear all the time, as if those things were what made UO good. The truth is though, what made UO great was the fact that you could spend weeks exploring the same dungeon, and when you knew it inside and out and got kind of bored you could find a different one to explore. It's all the stuff that people say that defined UO that actually made it less popular than it deserved to be. What really defined it was the fact that you were constantly exploring in it.

Must... Resist... Linking... Tasteful Understated Nerdrage video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvK8fua6O64

Ferisar:

RJ 17:

"Sometimes I look at WoW and think 'what have we done? ... "And it worked. Players came in droves, millions of them. But at what cost?"

I got a REALLY good laugh out of these two lines. Not because I disagree with the guy, far from it. It's just I can picture these lines being said in the opening voice-over to some post-apocalyptic movie.

Really I think this guy is spot-on with his description of things. After being with WoW from it's original launch till the end of BC (shortly after Lich King launched, to be exact), he touches on one of the main reasons I finally stopped playing the game, specifically the bit about equipment in the new expansions' starting quests being obscenely overpowered in relative terms to what you had before. Think of the countless hours you spent raiding to get the awesome gear you had. I was a warlock player and I put in a LOT of time to get a full Felheart set at the end of WoW's original game...only to find it laughably inadequate when compared to the quest rewards you got in the opening quests for BC. I didn't get Lich King right away, but seeing the gear my guildmates were getting from the opening quest effectively negated all the work I had done in the previous expansion. Hours upon hours of playing the game all reduced to meaningless "You really should have done something better with your time" waste...so I was done with the game. Why bother leveling up to get to the end game and get all the epic lewt when a couple years down the line it's going to be made into a joke once the new expansion hits?

That's relative from person to person. I appreciate my efforts in, say, WoW, because when I look back at the BC and WOTLK expansions, I remember good times, not epic loot. That's the thing, the padding to all MMO's is going to be material to some degree, but what you do with it is entirely up to you. Yeah, I raided, yeah I ran dungeons a bunch, yeah the leveling was leveling was leveling, but the stuff that was inbetween, especially the stuff with the players and friends is what made for the good time, not the 1337 l00tz. Much like anything else that's virtual, its value is entirely up to how much you invest in it.

This isn't to say that your opinion isn't valid, but that's not the attitude a lot of people have about the game.

OT:
WoW is weird. I can't reasonably disagree with this guy but neither can I fully agree. I nostalgia (that's right VERBS MOTHERFUCKER) over vanilla and BC, and the experience, and the leveling, and the questing and so on and so forth, and a lot of it is actually -true-. I was immersed, I was drowning in the game. I was, also, younger. A lot of it was new, a lot of it was completely unseen before by me. Warcraft 3 is what drove me to WoW. Now? Well, I don't know. The Cata newb-zone redesign is really fun in most places. I was actually interested in the quest lines, but not the overall feeling of them. I was entertained, but it was often so tongue-in-cheek that the whole factor of "looking back" was entirely devalued. Did I think Horatio Lane in Westfall was too fucking funny? Yes. Does it mean anything to me two years down the line? Well...

As far as WoW having killed a whole genre, hah, well, maybe. I would argue that the "WoW Killers" killed the MMO genre. WoW is just the cause because its own success made it look like an infallible model worth imitating, which is simply not true. The magic that WoW rode can't really be retraced.

I guess I'll try out Firefall, but I have no great expectations of MMO's anymore. It's just not healthy.

DugMachine:

Is the leveling too fast and trivialized? Yes. But only when you know that end game is where the game is truly at. I'm hiding this from my friend so that he maintains his innocence and levels at his own pace.

You're a good person. Just wanted to throw that out there. :D

This ^^^...this whole exchange is good. I've played a few MMO's, and played WoW since it started. I always loved Blizzard, for me it started with Super Nintendo "Lost Vikings" game and Warcraft. WoW introduced me to MMO's and showed me a whole world of games (no pun intended) that I could try with varying degrees of similarities to WoW. I've gamed since the "old" Nintendo, so gaming isn't new to me, but the idea that the world continued when I logged off was awesome, and foreign. I don't know if WoW killed MMO's, but it definitely changed the rules. No longer were they for the niche crowds, though the niche could (and probably still can) find something in WoW to enjoy (imo). I actually play SWTOR (please don't judge me, I love star wars!) and have played in open betas for a few others and I always come back to WoW. My guild is pretty awesome, and some guildies I've become good friends with. It could also be soul-crushingly addictive to me. Yup, that's probably it

Frost27:
"Wandered too close to an opposing faction's outpost? Grats, you just died, lost 6 hours of grinding worth of exp and are now naked 4 zones away and have to run a nude monster gauntlet just to loot your own gear off of your own body. Hope you don't die again! Muhaha!" "P.S., Train to zone, VS is with them and I'm coming left!"

And... You've just described how I lost my first lvl 25 Monk's gear. =P

Like someone mentioned earlier, you could log into WoW and want to do BRD or UBRS back in the Vanilla days, but that was no guarantee that was what you were going to do. Traveling to the destination, and getting into the instance was often tricky if the opposing faction was massed just outside the instance. I used to love the challenge these little moments provided to remind you of just how big WoW was and you were just one piece of an entire community. I remember a gang of my friends on the horde would take one day a week at least to charge into menethil harbor and dance around on the roof of the town hall to take on any alliance brave enough to stop our dancing on their lands.

Being able to log in, teleport to your goal, do a fairly routine instance and log out must be rather boring.

Fordo:

Frost27:
"Wandered too close to an opposing faction's outpost? Grats, you just died, lost 6 hours of grinding worth of exp and are now naked 4 zones away and have to run a nude monster gauntlet just to loot your own gear off of your own body. Hope you don't die again! Muhaha!" "P.S., Train to zone, VS is with them and I'm coming left!"

And... You've just described how I lost my first lvl 25 Monk's gear. =P

Ahh another fond memory...
"Gurgle!" [player] has fallen to the ground.

"Ahh shit..."

I really do miss that game. At least up until late stage Luclin.

VladG:
Not sure what to say about this. He's not wrong, not about the leveling. When I started playing WoW it took me months to get to max level. Now you could level an alt in a week or two.

I completely agree. When WoW was first out, it took me two years to get to the top since I was busy PvPing and studying inbetween game sessions, but those few gaming sessions were absolutely amazing. I remember fondly of entire adventures being lost in WoW with a friend at my younger age and the joy it brought us. Hell, you had two level 20 Night Elf's running through Horde territory with no idea how the game works other than quests and suddenly we're in "Hostile" territory? Confusing! So we snuck past Horde NPC patrols that were way too high a level for us and tried to survey the land we've never been in befeore. We spent hours there trying to figure out what's going on, since this was when mounts were level 40 so it took us forever to travel. Hell, I uh, kind of destroyed my Heartstone by accident while I was there and my friend had to protect me for about an hour until we escaped back to Alliance territory after being chased by a few Horde players since we accidently attacked them.

It sounds boring on text but we spent literally hours walking through enemy territory new to this game having a blast back in 2004 just getting in all sorts of trouble. Every time either of us leveled up we were estatic and of course sent each other the infamous "DING!" whispers to alert one another. It was a celebration whenever one of us leveled.

Then TBC came out and we went from level 58 to 70 in 2 weeks. There were no adventures, just quests, xp, and then dailys to farm gold for mounts. It became boring, unfulfilled. Having left WoW just a few weeks before WotLK launched, I went to other MMOs but the only one that could offer a new experience was Star Wars Galaxies. All the others were just clones in some way. Now that SWG is dead, WoW is still thumping it's chest, and MMO's continue to copy it, I just left the market entirely. MMOs were my favorite during my early gaming years. Now they are dried up.

I'm not blaming WoW, but WoW was the game that brought MMO's to it's knees. I miss vanilla WoW.

(Sorry for the long response, just got swept up all of a sudden in memories)

Who CARES about the endgame??That's not why I play.It took 2 years to level up my Warrior to 85,and I enjoyed it every step of the way.Now with Pandaria,I have the opportunity to go to 90,so if anything it's a new bullet in a long list of things I haven't done in WoW!

Ferisar:
Snip.

Indeed, to each their own, I was simply expressing my views on the matter, just as you have yours. I won't deny that a big part of the appeal to raiding in WoW WAS the social aspect more than the material aspect. Just the same, however, that's still countless hours of effort and work to washed down the drain when your gear is rendered obsolete by a new expansion. As I said, the negating of those hours of effort by removing the value of the reward for that effort was just one of the reasons I ended up leaving WoW.

The other part of it was guild drama that I didn't want to deal with anymore. :P

I nostalgia (that's right VERBS MOTHERFUCKER)

Actually "nostalgia" is a noun. The verb form is either "nostalgize" or "wax nostalgic". The only reason I point this out is because you made such a big deal of it yourself. :P

Makabriel:

Phrozenflame500:
I would say he's right. All MMOs now are mostly WoW clones and it's disappointing nobody trys anything too different from the basic formula as there are so many interesting possibilities for an MMO platform.

Interesting video, but it's apples to oranges. There's a reason he could only find Eve as an example of a sandbox MMO. It's because it doesn't work in the same genre. Closest thing you could come to it would be something like Minecraft. I played WoW because I liked the depth. I actually played and paid attention to the quests and the environment around me. I tried playing Eve and was bored out of my mind. There's no journey in Eve. What's weird is that if there was ever a game that defined grinding, that would be it..

It does work, or it did until Sony decided to kill it. SWG pre-CU was amazing, and it was a true sandbox game. There was nothing forcing you into any path, and honestly I leveled one character up doing nothing buy killing random mobs because I felt like it. I had another character who was afraid to leave his homeworld of Tatooine, so instead he started his own town and became a mayor (having leveled up as a bureaucrat). Yet for those who wanted a story, it was there was well. There were plenty of quest lines to follow, there was the whole galactic civil war happening, and they had it open to do with as you pleased.

As for what the Firefall guy said, I think he's just a bit miffed that his game is so bland. It was an interesting concept, but from what I played of it, the entire game is just a resource grab. It is almost as though you are role playing the part of an scv in starcraft. Don't get me wrong, there is content in the game, but for the most part you will spend most of your time harvesting resources (which is pretty fun the first hundred or so times you do it).

I don't think WoW killed the genre, the players did. The genre gave the "ME ME ME, NOW NOW NOW" generation exactly what they wanted and now they seeing the fruits of their labor.

This is why I play on a Burning Crusade private server. Leveling is slow and tedious at that expansion, but it actually makes it worth playing those early levels, unlike new WoW where you blow through it all, making the Leveling experience dull in of itself. There's nothing wrong with accessibility, there is something wrong, however, with hand holding up until max level, and then some. There's no challenge or worth to anything you do in WoW anymore. I'm glad a damn developer finally gets this, and not just a playerbase.

Yeah, how DARE a company provide what a significant number of consumers want.

And how DARE those consumers want that thing!

And how DARE they form a business arrangement that results in profits for one and enjoyment for the other!

Blaming the consumer for liking something and he producer for providing it is the same as blaming the tide for rising and falling.

But oh no, let's take shots at the guy on top and those sell-out unwashed masses for purchasing that obvious tripe. Congratulations, you have the sour-grapes gaming hipster.

Captcha: rocket science
No, it's market forces - economics.

What's funny to me is that I feel the exact opposite about The Old Republic. Where the in between content is excellent, but the endgame content sucks ass.

Abomination:
Yeah, how DARE a company provide what a significant number of consumers want.

And how DARE those consumers want that thing!

And how DARE they form a business arrangement that results in profits for one and enjoyment for the other!

Y'know, if you put it that way, drug dealers don't sound so bad all of a sudden...

Not saying WoW is a drug (or at least not more than anything enjoyable tends to be), but just because people want it doesn't mean it's the right thing in the long term. And through creating high expectations both on the player and on the investor side, WoW has effectively killed the genre. But for me it's just expression part of the current AAA moloch.

Pleaaaaase...

The guy wasn't some bigwig behind World of Warcraft, he was a Team Lead within the development group.

I must also ask, has everyone forgotten a little video that was on the Escapist some time ago about pasta sauce? You know, the one that says there is no such thing as a "perfect sauce", just "perfect sauces". That's the problem in the industry. World of Warcraft didn't kill the MMO Genre, it filled a gap that its competitors at the time didn't. And when those competitors saw its success, instead of sticking with their guns, they decided to cut and gut themselves until their misshapen, bloodied forms appeared at least vaguely similar to WoW.

The massive number of subscribers with WoW is also an anomaly, not a norm. The fact that idiots like Bioware+EA spend 300 mill expecting something close to that level isn't the fault of Blizzard, but of their own ignorance. This is the exact same reason that Dark Souls 2 million copies sold was a success, while Tomb Raider's 3.5 mill (in a small span of time) was seen as horrid failure.

Throwing money at a project won't make it better, and it certainly won't make it more desirable. Marketing it correctly, budgeting reasonably, and knowing just who you want to target does. Sadly, most games just attempt to match that "perfect sauce", instead of making their own "perfect sauce".

I feel this video from mikepreachwow sums it up rather well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

Fair point. But only work for past expansions, of after xp nerfs. Getting to level 90 in pandaria would take a week or two, if you didn't power leveled through it.

But WoW is also the most played MMO of all history, and one of the most profitable franchises of all entertainment, so I guess they don't really care.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here