Xbox One's Reputation System Locks Harassers Into Their Own Hell

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Xbox One's Reputation System Locks Harassers Into Their Own Hell

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"You need a community of folks that aren't screaming vulgarities every ten seconds, or the griefers or the harassers, those types of folks," says Microsoft's Mike Lavin.

"What we're looking at doing is creating a very robust system around reputation and match-making," says Microsoft's Mike Lavin. The Xbox One's new Reputation system is intended to do just that. If a person's on your friend list, Microsoft doesn't intend to do anything to it; your friends are your friends. But the anonymous folks screaming abuse, the harassers, the griefers, they don't help to build a community. "If there's a few per cent of our population that are causing the rest of the population to have a miserable time," says Lavin, "we should be able to identify those folks." Identify, and do something about.

The Reputation system is Microsoft's way of doing exactly that. People who play well with others get to create their own community of like-minded folks, while those who can't will be herded into a group of people similar to them. Lavin was reluctant - even when prodded - to call that grouping griefer hell, but did say "I would not necessarily want to play with those folks." It's not an automatic process, but repeated offenders will see their Reputation dip, and dip, until you end up down there with the wrathful, struggling in the waters of the Styx.

"We're one of the only platforms that really takes an interest in exploring and investigating major problems," Lavin concluded, "and this extends from sexual harassment, to age harassment, to gender to everything else under the sun." In the ideal, Xbox One's Reputation system will allow the developer to create the online community it wants, rather than endure the one it gets.

Source: OXM

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Except assholes are assholes and will happily abuse the system to Reputation down all the non-assholes too, just so they can continue to be assholes to them.

Especially since they do like to work in packs on the 360, like Hyenas. Means they can ruin your rep allot easier than your one vote against them.

Are they investigating the problems they made? Couldn't resist.

Well I guess this is a plus depending how it works and hopefully not something that can be abused.

Sounds good in theory. I recall Extra Credits did an episode suggesting this sort of system, which I think is something at least worth trying out.

Not that I have any clue of how it will work in practice. Individuals who have done nothing wrong might still be targeted by a group with no other purpose than to ruin his/her reputation. But I doubt such exploitations will be able to have much power beyond single players.

This is something I will give Microsoft credit for, at least.

Is this going to be one of those systems where arseholes can gang up on people and mass report/downvote/whatever them into oblivion, with next to no oversight? It is, isn't it...

After playing Mass Effect 3 MP, My Xbox reputation tanked, despite the fact that I didn't even own a mic. This idea will see much abuse. It feels like Microsoft screwed up....again.

Oh good, so when I consistently win in multi I'll have sour kids downvote/rep/whatever me. Great system, can't be abused at all.
On gears 3 I'd have a rage message at least once a day, never did anything to provoke, just played the game. But I can guarantee that people who enjoyed playing with me didn't upvote me, so as far as this sort of system is concerned I'm just a raging asshole who a lot of people hate.

Brilliant.

How could it be worse then playing on an Xbox One?

Sounds good in theory and depending on it's potential for abuse this could definitely be a positive thing. At least Microsoft's doing something right.

Angelous Wang:
Except assholes are assholes and will happily abuse the system to Reputation down all the non-assholes too, just so they can continue to be assholes to them.

Especially since they do like to work in packs on the 360, like Hyenas. Means they can ruin your rep allot easier than your one vote against them.

And again, Microsoft's idiocy is exposed in the first comment. What a crock xD

It could work well if there's a system to say exactly why a person if being voted down so it can be reviewed. If it turns out that the same person is down voting lots of people who haven't broken any rules, the voter would then be bumped down for abusing the system or maybe even starting the problem being reported.

That would take a lot of man power to make sure everything's legitimate, but it would catch some abusers and remove them from the more desirable community that much faster.

Suave Charlie:
Oh good, so when I consistently win in multi I'll have sour kids downvote/rep/whatever me. Great system, can't be abused at all.
On gears 3 I'd have a rage message at least once a day, never did anything to provoke, just played the game. But I can guarantee that people who enjoyed playing with me didn't upvote me, so as far as this sort of system is concerned I'm just a raging asshole who a lot of people hate.

Brilliant.

This. The idea works on paper, but it has way too much potential for abuse. Idiots and griefers indeed travel in packs; they make friends with each other and swarm individuals who stand against them.

Ooooh this is gonna bite them in the ass.
Don't give people power. Especially not to assholes, since they will do asshole things.

First day this is implemented the losing team will absolutely sink the reputation of the winning team. And it'll happen on a massive scale.

That's why I mute everybody when I play Xbox Live multiplayer.

And I mean everyone. The only way you're going to get to hear my voice is if we're friends and in a party chat.

I like to believe it solves the problem of having to deal with...those people.

Angelous Wang:
Except assholes are assholes and will happily abuse the system to Reputation down all the non-assholes too, just so they can continue to be assholes to them.

Especially since they do like to work in packs on the 360, like Hyenas. Means they can ruin your rep allot easier than your one vote against them.

My thoughts exactly. That sounds very open to abuse.

What I don't get is, what's so hard about muting player voices (not specific ones, but not hearing any player voices whatsoever).
I've learned back in my early Counter-Strike days that the disadvantages of vocal communication in multiplayer far outweigh the advantages. I know that every PC multiplayer game has a setting like that, and I'm willing to bet that most console multiplayer games do as well. This way everyone can play, and nobody has to hear others obscenities' and "opinions".

As for griefers, that's what kick votes and ban (temporary) votes are for.

Jandau:
Is this going to be one of those systems where arseholes can gang up on people and mass report/downvote/whatever them into oblivion, with next to no oversight? It is, isn't it...

Now, the idea behind it is quite good, let all the "good" players play, and force all the "bad" players into griefer hell. But who decideds a "good" player and a "bad" player? Cause if its the community, than... pfff... What you said...

It's a nice thought, but I hope there's something in place to prevent arbitrary downvotes towards people for made up reasons.

It seems like this is a system that if made robust enough, should be able to weight if you were placed in match of with a bunch of griefers. 10 ten downvotes in 1 match should be weighted a lot less than 1 downvote in 100 different matches.

You could also analyze voting trends, if people constantly down vote together they get locked out of the system.

As an anecdote I was a TA for a college biology class. I held office hours every single monday and no one ever came, for an entire semester. At the end of the year I got 1 evaluation that said (to the effect) "Comocat was never available for help, he should never TA again." 1 out of 20 evals said I was the worst person ever, regardless I still won a teaching award. My point is downvotes will happen, but an occasional downvote from some jerk shouldnt impact the score at all.

I think we've finally reached the point where game developers realize they are losing money ignoring the problem.

I'm lost, I thought this system was already in place in XBOX Live, with the reputation stars?

Unless there's something we're not being told yet, this seems very open to abuse.

I mean, it's a good idea on paper, but using my own profile "rep" as an example...

16% preferred or did not submit a review about me.

84% avoided me.

Details -

Communications
Trash talk: 2% - even though the only time I ever use a mic is when I'm in a party with friends
Language: 0%
Disruptive: 0%

Behaviour
Aggressive: 11% - despite me generally being more of a 'team player' in games.
Unsporting: 66% - I can't actually think of any time I've been particularly unsporting.
Quit early: 0%

And yet, I still have a 5 Star Rep.

So I definitely hope there's something more to this.

Great idea, not going to work IRL. The problem is that the only people that use these systems are those that are being targeted against. My first and only game of DOTA2 put me in a group of not-my-language speaking players who promptly tried to destroy my profile. Having this system may make the online experience better for the few that don't get hit with crap, but I think it will only serve to discourage online play by legitimately polite gamers over all. Gamers will definitely be afraid to play, just not the ones Microsoft is trying to scare off.

Unless MS is planning to form an oversight group like Valve's Overwatch this isn't going to stop the cesspit that is Xbox Live.

Sounds dandy, but I do recall several instances where players who were openly gay were hit with abuse reports by griefers & had they're accounts banned, so there would need to be some kind of oversight of this process, not unlike the Overwatch program

Angelous Wang:
Except assholes are assholes and will happily abuse the system to Reputation down all the non-assholes too, just so they can continue to be assholes to them.

Thankfully the system isn't automated, to get pushed into low-rep-land you still have to attract the attention of a mod.

No doubt there will be charmers who try to manipulate the system, but they will encounter mod wrath themselves since reports on Xbox Live are not anonymous (not to the moderator reading them anyway) and seeing a name filing twenty reports a day or twenty reports against one user always goes down well.

It could be worse, DotA 2 has a fully automated report system and exactly what you're talking about happens all the time. Players get booted into LPQ (Low Priority Que) by people aggrieved at getting beaten (or just trolling) spamming the report button and getting their mates to until the pre-set limit is reached. That sucks.

This does not work! I never acted like a shithead while on XBox Live but my reputation was half a star because the shitheads will vote you down for concentrating on the game and kicking their ass.

it could technically work. yes you are going to have cases of abuse but if those abusers and griefers end up with lower reputation and loosing access to matches with people in a higher reputation standing then it could be self governing

Great idea, but yeah, it definitely has the potential to be abused. I'd say put in an appeals process or something, especially since this is community punishment that can be handed out on a whim.

This would work.

Oh sure there will be allot of stories like "innocents" who end up being marked like that. But really check the microsoft forums and see how many people are truly innocent.

And certainly to end up in the pool of filth one has to really make it bad. Think your average 13 year old on Halo or Call of Duty. Let them enjoy a delightful time of gaming amongst their own.

Seriously let them, give the cheaters their own server.. give the assholes their own little area where they can be as much an asshole as they desire. But let those who just want to play a game enjoy their time.

Seriously there is a reason why some shooters offer an auto-mute. Because you need it! And lets be fair everybody can be a jerk at times, there are those who try to orchestrate how the game is going. That weird person that in a public game where he/she isn't with his/her clan.. tries to control what the other players are doing.

Will this system be abused, well as long as Microsoft doesn't uses automated systems for this. And actually checks the logs..then it all ought to be fine. And that is the important thing here that it has to be checked by hand. You can't do this fully automatic and yes people are jerks and are downvoting for whatever reason so. A low rep shouldn't automatically put you in danger.

And I can't wait to see the new forum section on the xbox live forums. There "I have been put in the JERK group and I am innocent" section. Really reading the banned console and suspended account section is a hoot! How more innocent they try to come out how worse the things they have done.

This might be the only smart thing the Kinect could be used for.
Seeing as it's always going to be on when you play, have it sit and listen for harsh language, and after a certain amount, it could put your swearing arse into the games where all the other buttholes play.

A decent use for the Kinect, who would have thunk it.

Ronack:

Angelous Wang:
Except assholes are assholes and will happily abuse the system to Reputation down all the non-assholes too, just so they can continue to be assholes to them.

Especially since they do like to work in packs on the 360, like Hyenas. Means they can ruin your rep allot easier than your one vote against them.

And again, Microsoft's idiocy is exposed in the first comment. What a crock xD

I think that at the core of this, it's a good idea/intention. Or at least, it's an idea that I like. But we don't know how it's actually going to work, which leaves alot of room for people to assume and criticize before it's even in action.

So now I have an idea. Let's wait to see how this all plays out before deciding how "idiotic" this idea is.

(plus, if these roving gangs of rep trashes were such a problem, why do all of my friends have 5 star ratings on live? They are constantly playing competitive games online with strangers. You'd think they would have felt the "hyena" packs by now...)

Ummm...when Microsoft says "we should be able to identify those folks", they don't mean by listening to user reviews. They mean by listening to the voice channels and counting how many times someone uses words from a naughty list.

They don't actually care what reviews a person receives. Voting on other users is designed to give YOU (the voter) a sense of empowerment after being victimized by a griefer.

it might work a bit better if there was an automated review of what has been said ingame.

say you get 3 or 4 downvotes in a game after whatever arbitrary level they choose. once that is passed all your chat logs for said game are downloaded and a voice recognition is run for key words. if you been quiet all game or not said anything bad or insulting then noting happens if you are doing the normall round of "noob" and you "mums so fat" jokes then the downvote stands.

they call it robust lets hope thats true as anything as simple as you win, you get downvote, repeat 50 times, ban is anything but.

I remember reading post-mortems on The Sims Online which featured something like this resulting in "The Dollhouse Mafia"


The Sims Online allowed users to declare other users un trustworthy too. The face of an untrustworthy user appeared circled in bright red among all the trustworthy faces in a user's hub.

It didn't take long for a group calling itself the Sims Mafia to figure out how to use this mechanic to shake down new users when they arrived in the game. The dialog would go something like this:

"Hi! I see from your hub that you're new to the area. Give me all your Simoleans or my friends and I will make it impossible to rent a house."

"What are you talking about?"

"I'm a member of the Sims Mafia, and we will all mark you as untrustworthy, turning your hub solid red (with no more room for green), and no one will play with you. You have five minutes to comply. If you think I'm kidding, look at your hub-three of us have already marked you red. Don't worry, we'll turn it green when you pay..."

http://buildingreputation.com/writings/2009/10/the_dollhouse_mafia_or_why_to.html

rodneyy:
it might work a bit better if there was an automated review of what has been said ingame.

say you get 3 or 4 downvotes in a game after whatever arbitrary level they choose. once that is passed all your chat logs for said game are downloaded and a voice recognition is run for key words. if you been quiet all game or not said anything bad or insulting then noting happens if you are doing the normall round of "noob" and you "mums so fat" jokes then the downvote stands.

they call it robust lets hope thats true as anything as simple as you win, you get downvote, repeat 50 times, ban is anything but.

I wouldn't trust Voice Recognition! Nah it needs a human hand in this.. just like they are already doing with account suspensions and console banning. They need to dig through the data and make sure the reports if they use some kind of reporting is right.

It is how they deal with the player suspensions and console bans. It would be a great system to take out the worst of the voice/text chat abusers.

It will be a purely a usable system. Basically a semi automated briefing minigame. What will make it even more pointless, as we have seen countless times before, that isolate the nice people from the assholes only works if the numbers on both sides are balanced or sufficient for constant matching. If they aren't? Guess what you get matched with the foul mouthed bastards anyway.

Why even bother with his sort of thing? They have voice recognition baked into the console. Simply keep a robust library of obscenities, racial slurs etc, and when the XBone hears them, it cuts off the players voice chat.

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