American McGee on Publishers: "News Flash: Things Cost Money"

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Mick P.:

lacktheknack:

Mick P.:
^With edits:

PS: @lacktheknack: Your words are not making sense. I'm posting for everyone else. A work ethic never hurts.

Says the man who wouldn't work fulltime himself, at $3.50 an hour. -__-

I wouldn't work fulltime (currently 40hrs/wk) for anything short of working on an oil rig or an ocean liner just for the season. That would be selfish, dehumanizing, irresponsible, etc.

Please explain to me how having the work ethic you mentioned earlier is selfish, dehumanizing, or irresponsible.

Please explain to me how contributing to society's function is selfish, dehumanizing, or irresponsible.

Please explain to me how you plan on surviving when you leave your parents' house. None of this "I can live on $3.50 hourly part-time", tell me HOW. Outline it. Explain to me how your insane and twisted logic is supposed to pull through. Please explain to me why you're so averse to work. Please explain anything.

lacktheknack:

Mick P.:

lacktheknack:

Says the man who wouldn't work fulltime himself, at $3.50 an hour. -__-

I wouldn't work fulltime (currently 40hrs/wk) for anything short of working on an oil rig or an ocean liner just for the season. That would be selfish, dehumanizing, irresponsible, etc.

Please explain to me how having the work ethic you mentioned earlier is selfish, dehumanizing, or irresponsible.

Please explain to me how contributing to society's function is selfish, dehumanizing, or irresponsible.

Please explain to me how you plan on surviving when you leave your parents' house. None of this "I can live on $3.50 hourly part-time", tell me HOW. Outline it. Explain to me how your insane and twisted logic is supposed to pull through. Please explain to me why you're so averse to work. Please explain anything.

Ok, lets school some spoiled brats. First of all 3.50$ a day* is more than most of the world lives on. 3.50$ a day is more than 50 million US Americans get in food stamps. 3.50$ an hour is a lot of money. More than 3.50$ an hour in this hypothetical scenario where the developers of our hypothetical game are not working 40hrs a week because they don't have dehumanized servants attending to their every need and need to set time aside to be socially responsible informed citizens, have some personal growth while making their game for people, because games made by people who work like dehumanized slaves are devoid of insight and the creativity gained from life experiences outside of work. Never mind family and friends and being well rested, because zombies make crap games.

PS: If an individual earns more than 10k a year in the US they must pay federal income taxes. This figure is very high so that people who are ethically unsure about supporting the federal governments spending do not revolt. 10k is lots of money. It's a lot more than you need. And in a future where most people are likely to be unemployed, maybe you'll get to be one of the unemployed and learn something about the real economics of the world. And then you'd be glad to be getting 3.50$ an hour to make a game. An activity that most people will consider playtime. *Edits below.

^BTW: News flash. American McGee is in China. His employees are lucky if they get 3.50$ a day*, much less an hour.

*EDITED: Actually the worldwide average income is twice 3.50$ a day, around 7 or 8$ I think. I didn't have to look this up. My brain just skipped a beat. You can live very comfortable on that in The States. If your property is paid for, you just have property taxes, food, utilities. I bicycle into town from a 20acre horse ranch myself. It's good for my heart. I get to live like a celebrity. Doesn't cost a thing.

With every invention it just gets cheaper and cheaper to live. I am certainly no more deserving than the worldwide average human being.

marurder:
The Escapist, why oh why do you persist in putting a megaphone in front of this idiot?

To be fair, he's no more an idiot than most of the industry. If they stopped putting microphones in front of idiots, there'd be like, no news. Like, they could update monthly and still not miss anything.

Why is it game devs and publishers who want our money insist on being massive dicks, though?

Mick P.:

lacktheknack:

Mick P.:

I wouldn't work fulltime (currently 40hrs/wk) for anything short of working on an oil rig or an ocean liner just for the season. That would be selfish, dehumanizing, irresponsible, etc.

Please explain to me how having the work ethic you mentioned earlier is selfish, dehumanizing, or irresponsible.

Please explain to me how contributing to society's function is selfish, dehumanizing, or irresponsible.

Please explain to me how you plan on surviving when you leave your parents' house. None of this "I can live on $3.50 hourly part-time", tell me HOW. Outline it. Explain to me how your insane and twisted logic is supposed to pull through. Please explain to me why you're so averse to work. Please explain anything.

Ok, lets school some spoiled brats. First of all 3.50$ a day is more than most of the world lives on. 3.50$ a day is more than 50 million US Americans get in food stamps. 3.50$ an hour is a lot of money. More than 3.50$ an hour in this hypothetical scenario where the developers of our hypothetical game are not working 40hrs a week because they don't have dehumanized servants attending to their every need and need to set time aside to be socially responsible informed citizens, have some personal growth while making their game for people, because games made by people who work like dehumanized slaves are devoid of insight and the creativity gained from life experiences outside of work. Never mind family and friends and being well rested, because zombies make crap games.

PS: If an individual earns more than 10k a year in the US they must pay federal income taxes. This figure is very high so that people who are ethically unsure about supporting the federal governments spending do not revolt. 10k is lots of money. It's a lot more than you need. And in a future where most people are likely to be unemployed, maybe you'll get to be one of the unemployed and learn something about the real economics of the world. And then you'd be glad to be getting 3.50$ an hour to make a game. An activity that most people will consider playtime.

You know what ruins your entire argument?

You're in America (unless you're lying in your profile?).

Countries that are paid less can by more for less. On the flipside, Australians have a minimum wage of $15, but everything costs more there.

Balance me a budget in which you can live in an apartment or home (not a homeless shelter) in America (or Canada), feed yourself (food stamps are allowed, but they don't cover everything), clothe yourself, maintain your things, heat your home, keep your lights on, and keep the water in your tap flowing, while keeping money put aside for emergencies (medical or otherwise), all while keeping yourself from spiralling into debt, on 10K or less per year. Or better yet, 5K per year, which is what $3.50 on part time adds up to.

It cannot be done. It cannot be done for less than $25K per year if you go low end everything and cut the emergency fund (which will invariably spin you into debt). It cannot be done COMFORTABLY for less than $40K per year.

And when you say "people will be unemployed", are you referring to a mass unemployment? That will only happen if everyone is as insane as you and stops buying ANYTHING to try to live within your idiotic standards. If you mean "everyone will be unemployed at some point", been there and done that. All I learned about the "real economics of the world" is "Even in Canada, the government handouts are not enough to keep your lights on".

And what the hell is this "set time aside to be socially responsible"? You work eight hours a day for five days a week when working full time. This leaves you six to eight hours a day to "be socially responsible" on weekdays alone, with a good 15 or 16 hours of "socially responsible time" available to you on both days of the weekend.

You somehow overlook the fact that more or less ALL Americans work full time after graduating, and yet somehow, we're not surrounded by soulless zombies (unless you're an Ayn Rand fan and think that you are, but you totally aren't if any of your words mean anything).

Man, you are in for a HELL of a surprise when you leave your parents' home. (I know you haven't, because if you wouldn't spill your torrents of "wisdom" if you had.)

Mick P.:
*EDITED: Actually the worldwide average income is twice 3.50$ a day, around 7 or 8$ I think. I didn't have to look this up. My brain just skipped a beat. You can live very comfortable on that in The States. If your property is paid for, you just have property taxes, food, utilities. I bicycle into town from a 20acre horse ranch myself. It's good for my heart. I get to live like a celebrity. Doesn't cost a thing.

With every invention it just gets cheaper and cheaper to live. I am certainly no more deserving than the worldwide average human being.

Calling pure BS. Beyond my pure unbelief that you're "living like a celebrity" on $20 a day or less (our small-house utilities cost upwards of $400 to $600 a month, eating nearly $6000 of our money annually), you're not even accounting for the huge investment that is paying for your bloody property, maintaining it when things go horribly wrong, or medical emergencies (which are a BIG FREAKING PROBLEM in the States).

Nope, I don't believe a god-damned word of it.

lacktheknack:

Mick P.:
*EDITED: Actually the worldwide average income is twice 3.50$ a day, around 7 or 8$ I think. I didn't have to look this up. My brain just skipped a beat. You can live very comfortable on that in The States. If your property is paid for, you just have property taxes, food, utilities. I bicycle into town from a 20acre horse ranch myself. It's good for my heart. I get to live like a celebrity. Doesn't cost a thing.

With every invention it just gets cheaper and cheaper to live. I am certainly no more deserving than the worldwide average human being.

Calling pure BS. Beyond my pure unbelief that you're "living like a celebrity" on $20 a day or less (our small-house utilities cost upwards of $400 to $600 a month, eating nearly $6000 of our money annually), you're not even accounting for the huge investment that is paying for your bloody property, maintaining it when things go horribly wrong, or medical emergencies (which are a BIG FREAKING PROBLEM in the States).

Nope, I don't believe a god-damned word of it.

By living like a celebrity that means many celebrities when they make it big buy a scenic secluded ranch for themselves. There are all kinds of celebrities. The sentence comes after 20acre horse ranch. Point is you can live very comfortably with very little money if you are smarter than the average bear.

No I don't own the horses or pay for their food. I am paid to feed them every day. So I wouldn't need money from a Kickstarter for anything. You could use the 10k to buy 2 houses so two of your friends don't have to worry about rent or a mortgage.

Countries that are paid less can by more for less. On the flipside, Australians have a minimum wage of $15, but everything costs more there.

I didn't read the rest of that post. But the worldwide wage figures in US dollars are adjusted according to what you can buy in the US versus what you can buy in said locale. So if someone in China is paid enough to buy a can of soda pop in china, then that is 25 cents in US dollars, or whatever a can of soda costs.

Anyway. I am finally on forum probation. So I am no longer using the forums here. The end.

It's a shame. Good forums. Bad policies. I've seen the accounts of many good people of the internet I recognize banned. So I am in good company I guess.

EDITED: Also. Just wanted to say. Some of the insulted posters in this thread seem to be of the mind that a Kickstarter project is like winning the lottery for a foreman who then goes out and hires people to carry out the goal of the Kickstarter whatever. I am sure that is possible. But for the record my assumption is a Kickstarter goes to the goal itself, so that everyone involved are equal partners. So they split the money pledged up and its used for the expenses of the project and nothing else except their basic life support. I also can't imagine a Kickstarter game taking more than a year to develop. Because if you raise money to do something, you just can't ask the pledgers to wait more than a year. For some things maybe, but for a video game, no. That would be disgraceful.

Mick P.:
Anyway. I am finally on forum probation. So I am no longer using the forums here. The end.

Uhhhhh... I've never heard of people abandoning the forums because of probation... so, uh... bye, I guess?

2 HOUSES FOR 10K WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF NEVER HAS ANY EMERGENCIES OF ANY KIND WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF I'LL NEVER KNOW THE ANSWERS ;____;

lacktheknack:

Mick P.:
Anyway. I am finally on forum probation. So I am no longer using the forums here. The end.

Uhhhhh... I've never heard of people abandoning the forums because of probation... so, uh... bye, I guess?

2 HOUSES FOR 10K WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF NEVER HAS ANY EMERGENCIES OF ANY KIND WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF I'LL NEVER KNOW THE ANSWERS ;____;

Well I either quit posting (and probably reading comments altogether) or my account gets banned the next time I read a post like this little gem:

Me getting a Warning:

uanime5::

If surfing every became mainstream would Bob demand that all surfers should try to encourage gender and racial diversity? If not then why should geeks do this?

Geek culture is composed of male, white, heterosexual, cis-gendered, unatheltic, well-off people because that's the people who it appeals to. Try to make it more appealing to women, non-whites, homosexuals, trans-gendered, athletic, or poor people can only be done by diluting this culture so much that it becomes the same mundane sludge that everyone complains about because it lacks any sort of depth. Geek culture is best when it's made for a specific audience, rather than everyone.

White supremacy alive and well I guess.

Logging out. For good...

I'LL NEVER KNOW THE ANSWERS ;____;

You can buy / have delivered / install plumbing and a well for a full sized trailer you can fit several studio apartments into for less than 5k. It's the future. Movie stars live in mini trailers. Think of it like a Japanese house. Live light on the land. Beats the hell out of rent.

"Simply put, this shit is hard."

So is my dick, now suck it!

*sigh* I'll probably get a warning for that but fuck it, its worth it.

I'm so sick of the shit we get told by anyone in the game industry, as if publishers and developers weren't enough of a pain in our collective ass as it was. Now we have to put up with their dishonest whining about money, these guys get thrown hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars to do a job and all we hear back is "oops, where did it all go?" and "but its so hard!"

Fuck 'em! I am so glad I haven't done anything with kickstarter yet, I understand that its an investment, I understand that there are risks, that's all fine and dandy, that's life in a nutshell. Mistakes can happen, misfortune can happen, accidents can happen, that is all acceptable risk when you're doing an investment. What I can't stand is the utter incompetence, the dishonesty, and the whining and especial the down talking to the people that gave you and your idea a chance of life, THAT is unacceptable.

So you bet your ass people are pissed, as they should be.

marurder:
The Escapist, why oh why do you persist in putting a megaphone in front of this idiot?

I see nothing idiotic about his statement, please point me at it else my opinion is it seems fair and rationalised

Valderis:
"Simply put, this shit is hard."

So is my dick, now suck it!

*sigh* I'll probably get a warning for that but fuck it, its worth it.

I'm so sick of the shit we get told by anyone in the game industry, as if publishers and developers weren't enough of a pain in our collective ass as it was. Now we have to put up with their dishonest whining about money, these guys get thrown hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars to do a job and all we hear back is "oops, where did it all go?" and "but its so hard!"

Fuck 'em! I am so glad I haven't done anything with kickstarter yet, I understand that its an investment, I understand that there are risks, that's all fine and dandy, that's life in a nutshell. Mistakes can happen, misfortune can happen, accidents can happen, that is all acceptable risk when you're doing an investment. What I can't stand is the utter incompetence, the dishonesty, and the whining and especial the down talking to the people that gave you and your idea a chance of life, THAT is unacceptable.

So you bet your ass people are pissed, as they should be.

Where's the dishonesty? Where's the incompetence on McGee's part? Heck, where's the whining? None of this is whining, he's just pointing out a simple double-standard that many people don't realize they have.

He's addressing THESE people:

Ultratwinkie:
Gamers can't have it both ways. They can't expect Skyrim and pay with spare change that a mobile app would ask for. They can't hate publishers yet somehow ONLY love big budget games only publishers can fund. Gamers are also far too removed from development to the point their huge unreasonable expectations are not grounded in reality.

Use a publisher? Now you are a "evil corporate pig who should die." Gamers hate you.

Use early Access or sell pre-orders with alpha access? Suddenly you are a scammer or greedy asshole who sells unfinished games. Still somehow a "puppet." Your game is also called shitty and that's why publishers won't touch it. Gamers still hate you.

Use kickstarter? Gamers give you spare change to try to create the second coming of christ. You suddenly find you don't have enough. Gamers still hate you because "games can't cost that much."

Its not just the "evil" publishers who lost the ability to stick to reality. Gamers' higher and higher expectations, catch 22s, and double standards also drove us here. No matter what, gamers will always hate you and fight you every step of the way.

(Thanks, Ultra!)

(Back to Valderis) Are you one of these people? No? Good, then he's not talking to you.

Unless you're thinking that he's whining about all the money he's lost from not managing his Kickstarter right. Well, his Kickstarter isn't even DONE yet, so if that's what you're thinking, then you're just projecting.

There was no lying on his part or Double Fine's. There was no whining on his part or Double Fine's. There was no freaking "talking down", unless you think the words "it's more expensive than you think it is, and there's good reasons I want a publisher" are exclusively "talking-down" words. And also, there was no incompetence on McGee's part.

Now put it back in your pants, that's freaking disgusting.

lacktheknack:
Uhhhhh... I've never heard of people abandoning the forums because of probation... so, uh... bye, I guess?

Actually, I've heard of someone doing that.

Actually American we don't understand. Because a good amount of indie hits are being made to massive success on the price of... well barely a fraction of that. Triple A games are bloated and unsustainable, and this is why kickstarter exists for games. To get medium titles off the ground where investors and publishers representing them would never take the risk. Not so you get to justify making more bullshit to them.

You, and the rest of your buddies pulling this shit have lost sight of how to make a good title anymore and to cover up that, you throw MO MONAY' at the problem.
And that's the naked truth isn't it? Too hard of a pill to swallow so you shout and complain to media websites about how all your naysayers are ignorant. Start hiring some of these new blood game creators into your companies. Maybe they'll show you how to actually carve a good game at a base level for half the time and price before you begin shoveling all the expensive pretty things ontop of it. And I say this as a creator of the expensive pretty things element! But I know where selling force in a game has to come from. The gameplay.

Don't give money to these people, it's that simple. They're gambling.

Publishers are the greatest mishandlers of money in the entire gaming industry. And they know it.

And do not crucify Indie developers for honesty and openess. THAT is true. But on the internet there will always be a hotbed of trolls and disgruntled idiots who don't know what they're getting into. It's them that we should be condemning and defending the people who dare. Yes not every project will work, which is why the crowd of investors should work carefully. Independent, but carefully.

IceForce:

lacktheknack:
Uhhhhh... I've never heard of people abandoning the forums because of probation... so, uh... bye, I guess?

Actually, I've heard of someone doing that.

Well, that didn't last. He's kept right on posting.

If people are going to crowd fund they need to realize that developers regularly require extra money and time from what was originally quoted, it has has been a regular issue between publisher and developers and now the crowd funders are preforming some of the responsibility of the publishers we need to learn to deal with this type of thing happening because it's gonna happen again.

It would be interesting to see a proper breakdown of their costs and spending. I'm sure we would all find ways to cut their costs.

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