Ender's Game Author Asks For Tolerance After Boycott Threat

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Pickapok:
The sociopolitical views of the author have no bearing on the quality of his work unless the work is centered on those views.

Ender's Game is decidedly NOT about gay marriage and is held as a classic work of science fiction, rightfully heavy with praise.

You are not promoting or supporting bigotry by seeing this movie or reading this book. You are promoting damn good storytelling and science fiction.

Besides, for all we know Card already got his check when he sold the rights to the studio/producers making the film. The rest may be going entirely towards recovering the budget and lining the pockets of those who made it.

For once I wish people could separate the views of a dickish author from the books and, worse still, it appears on a case by case basis. J.R.R. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and therefore opposed to homosexuality. You don't see people boycotting Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit to keep money from going to his family. What makes Card so different and special?

What's wrong with people's feelings toward a person influencing their perceptions of his/her writing, art, or other work?

It's perfectly normal to encounter someone who you find so objectionable as a person that you can't enjoy their work--no matter the objective quality of the work--and it's also fine if you can look at someone's work and say "Well, this is actually really good, despite X being a complete piece of crap. I like it." My go-to example is Auguste Rodin, who, from what I've read, was a complete asshole and treated women terribly... but was also an amazingly skilled sculptor. Sometimes, some people can separate the work from the person, other times they can't; for better or worse, you cannot change the way people feel, and it seems a waste to get too bent out of shape over it.

Also, regardless of whether or not Card has been paid his full share for the film, if it's hugely successful (which is most likely will be, despite the author), Hollywood's likely to make a whole series of films (which would almost certainly result in more money going into Card's pockets [unless he has a terrible agent and is an idiot, financially]). So there's that. Whereas, even if Tolkien had put similar efforts into oppressing LGBT folks, he's also long dead and couldn't put any money made off the films to harmful causes.

Flatfrog:

It's very straightforward. Tolkien didn't actively campaign against gay rights. Therefore, his personal opinions are irrelevant. Card can be as homophobic as he likes in private. But if he's going to become a spokesman in the fight against equality, then some people are going to lose respect for him, and that may have an impact on his bank balance.

Okay, I see how it is. So Card is being punished for exercising his right to free speech, openly stating and campaigning for his beliefs. Basically, for doing the same thing the multitudes of gay right lobbyists do, just in the opposite direction. God forbid we have political disagreements with each other.

If everybody agreed on every issue, that would be the end of democracy. Why even bother voting at that point?

I also like how you neatly ignored the majority of my post and the main point it was making to focus on the little point on the end.

What does Card being a grade A asshole have anything to do with whether or not Ender's Game is worth your time and money?

Flatfrog:

Pickapok:
For once I wish people could separate the views of a dickish author from the books and, worse still, it appears on a case by case basis. J.R.R. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and therefore opposed to homosexuality. You don't see people boycotting Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit to keep money from going to his family. What makes Card so different and special?

It's very straightforward. Tolkien didn't actively campaign against gay rights. Therefore, his personal opinions are irrelevant. Card can be as homophobic as he likes in private. But if he's going to become a spokesman in the fight against equality, then some people are going to lose respect for him, and that may have an impact on his bank balance.

Thank you sir, for the most level headed comment on this thread.

Pickapok:

Okay, I see how it is. So Card is being punished for exercising his right to free speech, openly stating and campaigning for his beliefs. Basically, for doing the same thing the multitudes of gay right lobbyists do, just in the opposite direction.

Yes, that's right. He chose to piss off a lot of people with money to spend, and they chose not to spend it on his products. I fail to see the problem with that.

What does Card being a grade A asshole have anything to do with whether or not Ender's Game is worth your time and money?

Because I don't want any more of my money to be spent on promoting anti-gay hatred. I've bought a lot of his books in the past and now I know where that money's gone I'm sad about it.

Of course, the movie looks like a bag of shit too, but that's a different matter.

jetriot:

THIS! People sit on their high and mighty horses seeking to destroy others for their political/social/religious opinions when it is they who are seeking to destroy free speech with boycotts. They make people afraid to dissent or speak their mind because it is politically incorrect. In the past I fell for the same traps until I realized that my boycotts were simply a tool of political correctness and speech policing. His opinion is VALID. We disagree with his opinion but we don't want to make other people afraid to have the same opinion and voice it.

The freedom of speech that Card has to express his opinion publicly also applies to those that disagree with his opinion. Last time I checked, they also have the right to not buy a ticket for Ender's Game & publicly state that they are not going to

If you say something that pisses off enough people that the exodus affects you financially, their decision to walk away didn't "destroy" you, your ill-advised statements did. That's how freedom works. You can't deliberately set your couch on fire & expect to be taken seriously when you're indignant about having nowhere to sit

When it all comes down to it, would you rather pay money for literature written by a man who claims that the vast majority of gays were rape victims, or would you rather use it on anything else?

Personally, I would rather not pay money to a man who claim's my father was a pedophile who raped me as a child.

Pickapok:
You are not promoting or supporting bigotry by seeing this movie or reading this book. You are promoting damn good storytelling and science fiction.

It kind of does support bigotry, as he donates to an anti gay marriage 'charity' or something. So buying his products provides him with a means to act on his bigotry.

I'm not too fussed myself though, as it doesn't affect me. I'm not gay and I don't know anyone who is, so if I decide to go and buy something of his then he can donate all the proceeds to a straight camp for all I care.

You've got your views and I disagree with them. Your book was one of the greatest and most interesting books I've read and has absolutely nothing to do with those views, not even bringing them up in any manner.

I'll be seeing Ender's Game, because I loved the book.

Pickapok:
[quote="1337mokro" post="7.821396.19845259"]
Shortened for space

While I understand your point, I think you lack perspective. Think one of the most important thing in your life. Now picture someone who stands directly opposed to that, who even goes so far as to suggest you deserve to be incarcerated. Now, can you still sit idly by and enjoy his works? How does knowledge of his hateful spew not seep over into your experience?

TheDeadlights:

While I understand your point, I think you lack perspective. Think one of the most important thing in your life. Now picture someone who stands directly opposed to that, who even goes so far as to suggest you deserve to be incarcerated. Now, can you still sit idly by and enjoy his works? How does knowledge of his hateful spew not seep over into your experience?

I can see how it can, I just don't think it should.

Pickapok:

1337mokro:

Beethoven is dead and not actively engaged in political movements to do anything. This guy is and wants to institutionalize unequal treatment for 10% of the population. He is part of a group of people that have for a long time mentally and physically abused those around them that think differently, look differently or act differently.

If you want to be the naive uninformed consumer then be one. Don't demand other people share in the ignorance of the products they support and thus the people behind the products. Why put ingredients on packages? If it's tastes good and you like it there is no problem with it right? Who cares if your chicken burgers are 70% sawdust.

If the person behind the product is a piece of shit, he is working towards make his bullshit beliefs effective law and on top of that really isn't that good of a writer then you should not ignore the effects of supporting this man financially.

I think you're mislabeling who the naive, ignorant consumer is here. People who let the political agenda of an author color their opinion of a recognized classic work of literature to the point of boycotting adaptations despite the two having no relation to each other are the ones who need to open their eyes.

Really because I think you sounded like the stupid uninformed customer here, one that doesn't even understand how royalties work. You also failed to separate two issues that are not mutually exclusive.

Opinion and Support.

I don't think Ender's game is all that good. I thought that back when I was a teenager reading this in the library. That is my opinion about the product itself. The movie looks interesting, it has allot going for it. However seeing as I have not seen it nor plan on seeing it I have no opinion on it.

I now as an adult refuse to support any product by this man because of his ideology. It is a hurtful ideology that wishes to segregate and drive a wedge within people. All for this man's ideology thought up by a conman we should separate and shun a part of our society. Screw that.

My opinion of his products are wholly separate from his ideology. My decision to not watch the movie he will receive money from for ever single ticket bought is a wholly different matter from whether I think it's any good.

To go back to the previous analogy if Beethoven was a Neo-nazi in present day and engaged in activities to classify Jews as second rate citizens politically I would boycott his work.

I could think it is a brilliant artistic piece, I even play the piano and love to perform his works, but I will not allow myself to financially support a man who stands for an idea and an ideology that directly opposes every single one of mine.

Pickapok:
It screams of people looking for a cause to rally around no matter how ultimately trivial.

I don't think you could have missed my point more completely.

I'll give it one more shot:

People--at least ones with the capacity for emotion--will be influenced by their emotions. Sometimes, a person's emotions (positive or negative), will influence their perceptions of the work or products produced by or associated with a particular person. This is not something you can change. If you don't understand how people could operate in such a way, you may never, but that's how many (or even most) humans work.

Well darn, I wish I knew about this crap before I bought the first four Ender books. I guess I'll read them since they're already paid for, but this tool's not getting any more of my money. Guess this is another name to add to the bigot boycott banner.

Oh, so Orson Scott Card is a bigot AND a sniveling coward? Lovely.

Fuck him and his movie. He'll never get a cent from me.

Pickapok:

TheDeadlights:

While I understand your point, I think you lack perspective. Think one of the most important thing in your life. Now picture someone who stands directly opposed to that, who even goes so far as to suggest you deserve to be incarcerated. Now, can you still sit idly by and enjoy his works? How does knowledge of his hateful spew not seep over into your experience?

I can see how it can, I just don't think it should.

I am not saying you not enjoy the film yourself, just do not go around calling people naive until you've walked in their shoes.

"Now it will be interesting to see whether the victorious proponents of gay marriage will show tolerance toward those who disagreed with them when the issue was still in dispute,"

I'm sure they will Card, right after your crowd stops being intolerant.

carlj:
snip

Wow. I've seen a ton of baseless accusations on this forum, but that one takes the cake.

Pickapok:

Okay, I see how it is. So Card is being punished for exercising his right to free speech, openly stating and campaigning for his beliefs. Basically, for doing the same thing the multitudes of gay right lobbyists do, just in the opposite direction. God forbid we have political disagreements with each other.

Uh yes, we are punishing him. That's how boycotts work. You'd rather he get death threats?

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences, provided those consequences are under the law.

i hope the ' death of the author' happens more then figuratively this time.

KOMega:
I really liked Ender's Game, and a few of the sequel books (although I think the quality was on a slow decline for that series.)

Still, I didn't see any anti-gay stuff in his books. So whatever.

Although... I didn't really see what he actually said or did. Can someone show me what he did?

There isn't any anti-gay stuff in Ender's Game as far as I'm aware (although if you want bizarre anti-gay stuff in science fiction, Dune's kind of creepily loaded(edit: nope, totally wrong word choice, here--sorry for the confusion or any accidental outrage. Still not sure what the correct one'd be, but see followup comments) with it, at times... still love the series and Frank Herbert, but... yeah).

See wiki for an overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Scott_Card#Homosexuality

He's on the board of directors for the "National Organization for Marriage" which, as you might guess, is an organization which ironically opposes having people to get legally married (and has done its best to oppress gay people because... who fucking knows).

Doesn't mean you have to not like is books or are a bad person for it, but I've found it hard to feel anything good toward the man or his work since finding out about that. Also, his anti-homosexuality essays are not just offensive in general, but seriously, deeply offensive to me as someone who absolutely loathes shitty attempts at argumentation. OSC is offensively, infuriatingly, absurdly, embarrassingly bad at forming a written argument.

bravetoaster:

Pickapok:
It screams of people looking for a cause to rally around no matter how ultimately trivial.

I don't think you could have missed my point more completely.

I'll give it one more shot:

People--at least ones with the capacity for emotion--will be influenced by their emotions. Sometimes, a person's emotions (positive or negative), will influence their perceptions of the work or products produced by or associated with a particular person. This is not something you can change. If you don't understand how people could operate in such a way, you may never, but that's how many (or even most) humans work.

How very irrational and illogical.

1337mokro:

Really because I think you sounded like the stupid uninformed customer here, one that doesn't even understand how royalties work. You also failed to separate two issues that are not mutually exclusive.

Opinion and Support.

I don't think Ender's game is all that good. I thought that back when I was a teenager reading this in the library. That is my opinion about the product itself. The movie looks interesting, it has allot going for it. However seeing as I have not seen it nor plan on seeing it I have no opinion on it.

I now as an adult refuse to support any product by this man because of his ideology. It is a hurtful ideology that wishes to segregate and drive a wedge within people. All for this man's ideology thought up by a conman we should separate and shun a part of our society. Screw that.

My opinion of his products are wholly separate from his ideology. My decision to watch the movie he will receive money from for ever single ticket bought is a wholly different matter from whether I think it's any good.

To go back to the previous analogy if Beethoven was a Neo-nazi in present day and engaged in activities to classify Jews as second rate citizens politically I would boycott his work.

I could think it is a brilliant artistic piece, I even play the piano and love to perform his works, but I will not allow myself to financially support a man who stands for an idea and an ideology that directly opposes every single one of mine.

This makes a bit more sense, but I still think you should be able to separate your opinions on the author and his past activities from whether or not the movie should be seen or the books read. If you just plain don't like Ender's Game on its own merits, more power to you. The author himself has come out and said he's laying down the pitchfork and backing off. I can understand if you don't believe him but he may very well be speaking truthfully.

Klitch:
Well darn, I wish I knew about this crap before I bought the first four Ender books. I guess I'll read them since they're already paid for, but this tool's not getting any more of my money. Guess this is another name to add to the bigot boycott banner.

ShirowShirow:
Oh, so Orson Scott Card is a bigot AND a sniveling coward? Lovely.

Fuck him and his movie. He'll never get a cent from me.

This is exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about. "The author is an asshole so his works are worthless." Walt Disney was a raging Anti-Semite, are you going to sit there and tell me all of his classic works are shit based on his beliefs? What about Henry Ford, another man who also held anti-Semitic beliefs and yet is heralded as an American hero for making the automobile cheaper and more affordable to the working class?

aggers:
i hope the ' death of the author' happens more then figuratively this time.

Oh come on, don't stoop to that level. You cant beat hate with more hate.

Orson Scott Card asking for tolerance. This is the most hilarious thing i've heard all day.

Pickapok:
This is exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about. "The author is an asshole so his works are worthless." Walt Disney was a raging Anti-Semite, are you going to sit there and tell me all of his classic works are shit based on his beliefs? What about Henry Ford, another man who also held anti-Semitic beliefs and yet is heralded as an American hero for making the automobile cheaper and more affordable to the working class?

I never said his works of fiction are bad. I bought the first four books because I've heard that at least the first one is a great work of science fiction and I figured I'd read it before seeing the movie (which I won't be watching now). What I did say is that if this guy is fine with labeling an entire group of people as a lower order of humanity and undeserving of basic human rights based solely on their genetic sexual predilections, then I'm fine with not giving him any more of my money. Honestly, between him and me, I think I come out as just slightly more reasonable.

Edit: The fact that he used the whole "be tolerant of my intolerance" BS argument only adds fuel to my righteous fire :P.

Message below is the version I received in my inbox.

Pickapok:

1337mokro:
I think you're mislabeling who the naive, ignorant consumer is here. People who let the political agenda of an author color their opinion of a recognized classic work of literature to the point of boycotting adaptations despite the two having no relation to each other are the ones who need to open their eyes.

Pickapok:

Really because I think you sounded like the stupid uninformed customer here, one that doesn't even understand how royalties work. You also failed to separate two issues that are not mutually exclusive.

Opinion and Support.

I don't think Ender's game is all that good. I thought that back when I was a teenager reading this in the library. That is my opinion about the product itself. The movie looks interesting, it has allot going for it. However seeing as I have not seen it nor plan on seeing it I have no opinion on it.

I now as an adult refuse to support any product by this man because of his ideology. It is a hurtful ideology that wishes to segregate and drive a wedge within people. All for this man's ideology thought up by a conman we should separate and shun a part of our society. Screw that.

My opinion of his products are wholly separate from his ideology. My decision to watch the movie he will receive money from for ever single ticket bought is a wholly different matter from whether I think it's any good.

To go back to the previous analogy if Beethoven was a Neo-nazi in present day and engaged in activities to classify Jews as second rate citizens politically I would boycott his work.

I could think it is a brilliant artistic piece, I even play the piano and love to perform his works, but I will not allow myself to financially support a man who stands for an idea and an ideology that directly opposes every single one of mine.

This makes a bit more sense, but I still think you should be able to separate your opinions on the author and his past activities from whether or not the movie should be seen or the books read. If you just plain don't like Ender's Game on its own merits, more power to you. The author himself has come out and said he's laying down the pitchfork and backing off. I can understand if you don't believe him but he may very well be speaking truthfully.

What the fuck was that? Did you just put YOUR name above what I wrote?

Screw you mate, who are you to so blatantly misrepresent me, putting your words literally under my name.

You can go watch this movie and have fun completely closing your eyes to the fact that this man belongs to a religious groups that openly denounces a section of the population as abominations. A group which until recently segregated their churches based on skin colour because they view black people as creatures of sin, even now some of their churches do so. You can close your eyes to his past activities where he campaigned for inequality and to make homosexuality illegal again. Not to mention his two faced weak sauced "Hey I changed really, honestly guys, I'm totally cool with gays now" announcement. You can close your eyes to the fact that part of the money you paid for the movie will eventually go on to harm others.

You can be that ignorant consumer that praises his unmarked 70% sawdust chicken burger.

However do that in your own words. Don't steal mine and use them to defend your position.

Edit: Redact the earlier rage, the message I received in my inbox had the names switched around. You fixed it in editing, so my point about the misquoting mute. The point big piece of text is still relevant though.

Pickapok:

bravetoaster:

Pickapok:
It screams of people looking for a cause to rally around no matter how ultimately trivial.

I don't think you could have missed my point more completely.

I'll give it one more shot:

People--at least ones with the capacity for emotion--will be influenced by their emotions. Sometimes, a person's emotions (positive or negative), will influence their perceptions of the work or products produced by or associated with a particular person. This is not something you can change. If you don't understand how people could operate in such a way, you may never, but that's how many (or even most) humans work.

How very irrational and illogical.

Like I said, if you don't have the same emotional capacity that most people have, that won't make sense to you. Emotion is irrational and illogical and is of considerable evolutionary value. You can dismiss that, or--I'd recommend--archive that somewhere in your mind so you understand, on some level, why people act and react the way they do to things.

Klitch:

I never said his works of fiction are bad. I bought the first four books because I've heard that at least the first one is a great work of science fiction and I figured I'd read it before seeing the movie (which I won't be watching now). What I did say is that if this guy is fine with labeling an entire group of people as a lower order of humanity and undeserving of basic human rights based solely on their genetic sexual predilections, then I'm fine with not giving him any more of my money. Honestly, between him and me, I think I come out as just slightly more reasonable.

Fair enough. I just think people should decide what they spend their money on based on the quality of the product rather than the flaws of the creator.

Pickapok:

This is exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about. "The author is an asshole so his works are worthless." Walt Disney was a raging Anti-Semite, are you going to sit there and tell me all of his classic works are shit based on his beliefs? What about Henry Ford, another man who also held anti-Semitic beliefs and yet is heralded as an American hero for making the automobile cheaper and more affordable to the working class?

Well, they're dead so it's hard for them to hear my rage against them or benefit from my transactions.

I ain't saying that Ender's Game is a bad book... Maybe it is but I haven't read it despite owning an old paperback... I'm saying Orson Scott Card is a terrible person who thinks he's entitled to be free of consequences after campaigning to oppress people who have had to deal with a lot of fucking oppression. I'm saying I will not go watch the new movie because I don't want to support any work that features him on the credits.

He's a great writer, a decent author, a passable storyteller and a human being I most certainly would not really enjoy meeting in person.

As much as I would like to be able to separate his person from his writing, I often find myself with a bitter aftertaste when thinking about his work. I'm an rookie author myself, and the man could very well be a great example to me - but I just can't admire him. With all he has achieved, I cannot admire him because of his views. I agree that his books (at least the early Ender series, the Empire books not so much) are not political or ideological in any way, but still I just cannot get over the fact as much as I try.

Sorry, Orson Scott Card, I deeply regret this but I am afraid that I fail to tolerate your particular brand of intolerance.

Fuck this guy, I would say "I'll pirate it" but I wouldn't sully my eyes!

Everybody is guilty of a little hypocrisy but come on the fuck on, first he is all "fuck them homos" then 'cos the government said "gay people are cool" he is saying "can't we all just get along"?

Couldn't we all just get along before the government said it was ok? He hasn't reversed his views like he is in a feel good Hollywood film and he has seen the error of his ways ... he saw his work could bomb and said "come on guys, why the hate?".

Kind of off topic. I'm glad for all the gay people in America, who are now slowly but surely being given equal rights.

Pickapok:
This is exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about. "The author is an asshole so his works are worthless." Walt Disney was a raging Anti-Semite, are you going to sit there and tell me all of his classic works are shit based on his beliefs? What about Henry Ford, another man who shared a lot of common opinions with Hitler himself and yet is heralded as an American hero for making the automobile cheaper and more affordable to the working class?

There is no proof that Walt Disney was an anti-semite. Lot's of rumours yes, but no proof. Another factor is that Walt Disney happens to be dead and as such, can't actually affect anyone.

Which of Hitlers opinions did Henry Ford agree with?

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