Living_Brain:
There was a boycott planned?
Oh c'mon people. There's a word for you which I can't remember right now, and it's not a compliment. Why would you care about what he said? There's simply no point.

EDIT: I now see hate coming my way. Oh well. Not gonna retract.

I actually agree with you, art is art! it does not matter what the person does if you enjoy there art enjoy it, all you do by not watching it is to deny yourself, does it really matter if a hate monger gets a bit more money? will it change anything? but for you on a personal level if you miss a great book or movie that changes you! Just imagine if Beethoven was treated the same way for what he did! But no people cared about his music not the man. At the time enjoy the art, let history ruin him.

I don't think I'm being hyperbolic when I say there are millions and millions of authors out there. Of all beliefs, religious, ignorances, agenda, you name it. They might be invited to the rallies, they might even organize them... But they won't be a headliner like a New York Times Best Seller like Orson Scott Card. They won't shape young minds like Best Selling Author and Professor in Southern Virginia University like Orson Scott Card. In short, unless you have a name and a devoted fan base, you can be any type of writer from Erotica to Children's books... But you're simply not going to have the weight of an Orson Scott Card.

His views matter more than mine because he does have a name. I'm not going to be ignorant enough to think that just because I believe I'm right in my beliefs and I can state them clearly and even eloquently from time to time that I'd be listen to more than some of the 'celebrities' here in the Escapist. Hell, I state a lot of things well and I barely get responded to. But if it was Jim Sterling's name at my heading, people would be chomping at the bit to respond. Any one of the editors of the Escapist. Yahtzee. No Right Answer. People that you 'know' by watching them or reading about them and you'd feel more of a connection to than me. Hell, you might not even want to respond, but you'd sure want to read it over to see what I thought if any one of those names were at my heading besides mine. I'm sure probably only the people who will read this post are those I quote.

That's why the only statement most people can make against Board member of the National Organization for Marriage Orson Scott Card is to affect him financially. I can say whatever to him on the internets, or against his beliefs on the internets and he'll probably never see it. And if he did, he'd laugh. He'd look at my standing, look at his, and wonder why he even bothered wasting his time to read it. And guess what? it worked. This article and his statements proved that he had to listen to some of us.

No one is out to hurt Card. Ok, let's be real. Some are. Some really are. I'm not, though. It doesn't not matter how much money Card would get directly from this movie. The exposure does. Everyone is a willing sheep to anyone who voices their ideals. And there are the impressionable who haven't formed their own beliefs yet but are very susceptible to being swayed by something cool and wanting to find out more about the ideas of the person who wrote it. And if they decide to go that route... Fine. I can't do anything about that. That's their journey, that's now their lives.

But I will not turn a blind eye to my role in my beliefs. I support free speech. I support anyone saying what they want to say. Even racists. Hate me if you want... but don't threaten me. Don't do something to limit my rights or even bring harm to me. I can't nor won't support that, for obvious reasons. How you feel about homosexuality aside, saying you cant' do the same as anyone else of the population is harmful. As harmful as free speech, because it IS limiting what they can do or express.

jetriot:

Fdzzaigl:
Honestly, I don't care what he said in regards to viewing the film or not. A few years back almost 30% of my country voted for an extremist party and today over 30% votes for a party that I really don't agree with.

However, when I go to the baker and grocer or when some other tradesman comes around to fix stuff in the house, I don't question or regard their political or ideological thinking either (even though the chance that some of them voted for said extremists is high). It's the work they do or the product they sell that's important.

I think the same way about the book and game: judge those things on their own merits.

You can judge the person of the author outside of that.

THIS! People sit on their high and mighty horses seeking to destroy others for their political/social/religious opinions when it is they who are seeking to destroy free speech with boycotts. They make people afraid to dissent or speak their mind because it is politically incorrect. In the past I fell for the same traps until I realized that my boycotts were simply a tool of political correctness and speech policing. His opinion is VALID. We disagree with his opinion but we don't want to make other people afraid to have the same opinion and voice it.

I always find it amazing that those lobbying for other people's rights to free speech seems to be hellbent on limiting others' ability to do the same. No one said Orson could not say what he wanted. They just said they don't have to support him financially. It's not about being politically correct, as a lot of people want to fall on... What if people just don't like what he's saying? Just because he wrote something, doesn't mean he's owed my money. I wrote a few things, why isn't anyone kicking things my way? He is owed our money if we find it worth it to give it to him.

If a racist might really enjoy my book, but saw my face on the cover and decided not to read it, would you go to his or her doorstep and demand that they keep an open mind over how good my work is? That they are just being close minded? If an atheist found out that I worship the Norse Gods, would you call him up and say how dare you be close minded because I advocate worship to Thor on Thursday?

His opinion is damn valid. But is it more valid than my own that his opinion happens to be against? Because he said the opinion first, should I sit here and go 'Damn, I wish I could have got my opinion out before his', so I could express myself in a matter that no one feels I was trying to limit his?

Free Speech isn't about everyone sitting in a circle singing kumbaya. It's about FIGHTING for what you believe in. If Card feels so battered because not everyone embraced his opinion with open arms, then fucking Hurrah. Free Speech worked. He voiced his opinion... then we voiced ours. It's not a one way street. Once you get it out there, THEN you have to deal with what's incoming. If a person can't handle that, then free speech isn't for them.

I think he's a huge prick, but if I want to see the film, I'll go and see it. I personally believe in rewarding quality, so if the film is well made and a good bit of work, I'll happily go see it regardless of his stupid views.

That said, I think his argument here is pitiful. Being intolerant of homosexuals is a very bad thing, being intolerant of bigotry is a good thing. I understand that people might be uncomfortable with homosexuality, but all we're asking for is tolerance, you don't have to like it.

I don't particularly care about a person's view on this or that. I will judge a literary, artistic or entertaining work on its own merits. I also don't begurdge a person's right to have a view different from my own. I don't agree with him, but IMO he absolutely has the right to have his own views. I think boycotting, death threats, slander, hate-mongering and propaganda are counter productive and don't have a place in a civilised society. We have discourse, discussion, debate and the ballot box.

Mumorpuger:
Unless a person incorporates their particular brand of prejudice into their works, I separate the creator from the creation. It seems like most people can't do that though.

Dude, he actively donates part of his royalties to anti-gay organisations. Every time you give him money, some of your money is going to bigoted idiots. I'm all for separation of art and artist, and I've read the Ender books (my dad bought them before he found out what Card was really like) and I love them, but I cannot give my money to this piece of homophobic, idiotic, smug fundie scum.

Karloff:
"Now it will be interesting to see whether the victorious proponents of gay marriage will show tolerance toward those who disagreed with them when the issue was still in dispute," Card concludes.

1960 America - 50 years ago - blacks and whites couldn't legally get married in the United States.

Now, in 2013 America, a celebrity chef can be fired from her job and basically lose every major contract she has for admitting to having uttered the "N" word, years in the past.

I say that the people who were against gay marriage deserve about as much "tolerance" as we would show to a person who was viciously against interracial marriage or who admitted to casually changing governments by "any means necessary" if government ever allowed "race mixing" - how about that? Let's show all bigots the same level of "tolerance" regardless of if their bigotry is towards a gender, a race, or a sexual orientation.

How about that?

Bruce:

I believe in freedom for myself. I don't owe Card my money, and if I don't want to give it to him, then that's my right. Card has every right to state his views, the rest of us have every right to respond by not giving him money.

This. A thousand times this. Of course you have the right to be as bigoted or as anti-gay or as racist or as misogynist or whatever floats your boat - I'll protect your right to publically say bigoted things, absolutely.

However - *I* also have the freedom to organize a boycott of your products if I think you're being a... jerk. Or a bigot. Or just plain evil and wrong.

I don't understand people who consider boycott's "bullying" at all. It's not.

It's freedom of expression to alert people that they may be supporting views or people they find abhorrant.

"Tolerate my intolerance! Don't oppress my efforts to oppress, you guys! What kind of bigots wouldn't defend my bigotry?"

...yeah, no.

thaluikhain:

I also like how he pretends that people in favour of equality have won.

...Didn't they?

OT: Whatever. Who cares? I mean that in the most literal sense of the phrase. Someone disagrees with you and now you won't give them money? Your choice but last I checked its perfectly allowed to disagree with someone. Given that the book is based in my hometown and one of my old schools, I surely will check out the movie. Also because I loved the book.

He wrote a few good books, that doesn't make his opinion matter any more than anyone elses.
As far as I'm concerned, he's just another tiny piece in the hateful, screeching, amorphous mass that is the anti-gay marriage lobby. As for forgiving him for his comments.. no, I don't, and I never will, next.

Mumorpuger:
Unless a person incorporates their particular brand of prejudice into their works, I separate the creator from the creation. It seems like most people can't do that though.

Why would we? Using OSC as an example, there's no homophobia in Enders Game. So by your reasoning, buying a copy of Enders Game or going to see the movie doesn't support homophobia as it is separate from OSC.

But this isn't true. They aren't separate. OSC gets royalties from most of his creations - ie: money. He uses that money in whatever way he see's fit, and some of that goes to his homophobic actions and statements. Every time someone buys something that OSC creates it tells the seller that there is a demand for OSC creations, and so more are produced. Sometimes this means that they want new books of his. Sometimes this means they want him to write more editorials, or in the case of the movie Enders Game, they may want to make sequels. This all goes back to OSC financially and in terms of fame and name recognition.

Even if OSC doesn't get a single dime from Enders Game anymore, either in print or on the big screen, having his name up there still is a win for him - people will see the movie and like the movie (even if it sucks, there will always be some people who like the movie), and they will go out to find other things OSC has created. If 5 people walk into a book store and say "Do you have anything that the guy who wrote Enders Game also wrote?", or if there's a few dozen searches on Amazon.com for "Enders Game", those stores will start to stock other things by OSC. The only way this boycott doesn't hurt OSC is if he gets, literally, no financial benefit from any of his creations. If he gets any financial benefit from the consumption of his creations, then boycotting his most visible work is going to have a huge effect on his pocketbook, his reputation and the way his name is recognized.

That's why there's a potential boycott on the movie, and probably why OSC is so alarmed by it. If Enders Game tanks, there's not likely to be another OSC movie in the near future. That's going to take quite a bit of money, fame and name recognition out of his pockets (literally and metaphorically). To stop that from happening, he has to either appease the people who are calling for the boycott and at least stop publicly condemning same sex marriage and homosexuality in such insane terms (ideally stop condemning it entirely) or face financial ruin.

For a man who opposes gay rights, there sure is a lot of homo eroticism in his books. Don't get my wrong, I really enjoyed Ender's Game and it's related spin-offs... but I certainly didn't pay him money for it. I got it used from a second-hand book store.

If he truly intends to back off and never again donate money to anti-gay rights organizations and movements, then sure, I won't be joining the group of people in my town that plan to boycott the movie. He may be a bigoted asshole, but I'm willing to tolerate him and his film (which, to be fair, has nothing to do with the issue) if he chooses to no longer stand in the way of progress and love.

Then again, that's what tolerance actually means. Hating something, but putting up with it. I will admit though, I have a hard time tolerating intolerance. Guess I'll use this as sort of a tolerance litmus test.

Pickapok:
The sociopolitical views of the author have no bearing on the quality of his work unless the work is centered on those views.

Ender's Game is decidedly NOT about gay marriage and is held as a classic work of science fiction, rightfully heavy with praise.

You are not promoting or supporting bigotry by seeing this movie or reading this book. You are promoting damn good storytelling and science fiction.

Besides, for all we know Card already got his check when he sold the rights to the studio/producers making the film. The rest may be going entirely towards recovering the budget and lining the pockets of those who made it.

For once I wish people could separate the views of a dickish author from the books and, worse still, it appears on a case by case basis. J.R.R. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and therefore opposed to homosexuality. You don't see people boycotting Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit to keep money from going to his family. What makes Card so different and special?

I agree with you on this. I'm reading Ender's Game for the first time right now (actually have the book in my hand; checking email and the Escapist is an addiction), and it is just freakin' fantastic.

I knew about Card's views before reading it, and while I feel less appreciative of the man himself, I think his fiction deserves the high praise it receives.

I think the reason that the hate seems to be on a case by case basis, is that Card is particularly vocal and extreme in his views. I don't remember Tolkien's anti-gay views being particularly expounded on in any of his writings. Card has done so multiple times, and publicly.

Sheo_Dagana:
For a man who opposes gay rights, there sure is a lot of homo eroticism in his books.

That is true, though what I've seen of it seems to be written in a way that makes the reader uncomfortable. I've never found it to be "erotic" in any sense, but that may be because I'm straight, I don't know.

1337mokro:

Pickapok:

1337mokro:

That's right Pickapok is a being made out of lots of polygons! He has so much more emotions than you do toaster! A short joke to bring some levity to this discussion.

If Ender's Game does well and we don't get that movie. What then? You will have supported a person who most likely after the success of his movie will revert right back to his earlier ways in the vain hope of catching a carrot.

Why not just support Pacific Rim? Why bother also supporting Enders Game? If everyone who boycotts Enders Game goes out to see Pacific Rim instead you'd have the same effect. Doing something that gives money to a person who has the potential and the history of wanting to harm and oppress others is never justifiable just because there is a dangling carrot in the distance.

Why don't we just let Hollywood die and see what rises from the ashes? Maybe a less racist, misogynistic, stupid industry will take it's place.

I have all the polygons.

Pacific Rim and Ender's Game won't be in theatres at the same time. Aside from that, the same goes for the flip side of the coin. What if the boycott doesn't catch on and Ender's Game still makes a ton of money? What then? You may not have added your support to the film but in the end it didn't make that much of a difference at all. "But at least he didn't get any of MY money," you might say. "But at least I tried!"

And that would be my response to the possible outcome you presented. "At least I tried."

Your failure state:

At least you tried, you supported someone who campaigns for things you despise in the hope you would get a different movie. You didn't even really want to see Enders Game (just adding to the disappointment here) but it was all in the hope for that other movie that never appeared. A new anti-gay campaign is funded using the money that Card got for this movie. Your money is partially used to fund that campaign and a trip to the hooters bar.

My failure state:

At least you tried, you did not support someone who campaigns for things you despise. Sadly not enough people thought like you and the movie was still a financial success. You are now getting to see At the Mountains of Madness from an author who did not hold any such hateful views and/or is no longer alive to campaign in favour of them. A new anti-gay campaign is funded using the money that Card got for this movie. None of yours went towards it.

I like my failure state allot better. However let's look at the success states.

Yours:

You went to see Enders game, it was a great movie and instilled trust in weird sci-fi concepts. The film was a box office block buster hit and Card got rich of the movie. He immediately does a heal turn and funds more anti-gay campaigns. Continuing like he has done for decades now. Everything is alright though because now that movie you really wanted is being made.

Mine:

You didn't go to see Enders game, so did millions of others who would have gone to see it. The film tanked harder than the Lone Ranger and John Carter combined. Instead everyone went to see Pacific Rim, supporting Guillermo directly without having to lower themselves because of the shiny carrot dangling in-front of themselves. The studios green-light his next movie. Card is forced to reconcile himself with a changing environment, becoming either less vocal or a recluse who surrounds himself with people who think the same as he does in the LDS church. Of course anti-gay campaigns will still be run, but there is at least one less to be worried about.

It's funny how both my failure and success states end up benefiting more people with less suffering overall than yours :D

EMOTIONS!

But I do really want to see Ender's Game. I'm just stating some of the possible ramifications. And none of us have ANY idea how much Card is getting from this. It's a safe bet that he's already been paid the royalties and that's that. Your points are so hilariously one sided and balanced that they come off as mad.

KingsGambit:
I think boycotting, death threats, slander, hate-mongering and propaganda are counter productive and don't have a place in a civilised society. We have discourse, discussion, debate and the ballot box.

I agree with you on death-threats, slander, hate-mongering and propaganda, but boycott?

Boycotting is going 'I don't want to give you my money, and will tell other people not to give you money'.

That's what many critics do. "This is a bad movie, don't go see it."

How uncivilized.

The issue I have is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, freedom of speech is freedom of speech. It doesn't go one way in the tolerance aspect. If you wish to be tolerated for your views, you must also tolerate views you don't agree with. Like him or not, boycotting him for disagreeing whether bigoted or just plain "I don't care for it" isn't being tolerant. Treat others as you want to be treated is a good standard to live by. Boycotting works by a man who doesn't agree with something thats a hot-button issue doesn't solve the problem, and it is detrimental to the cause they're trying to support. You may not like what he has to say, but he damn sure has the right to say it, just like you have the right to be contrary to the "accepted norm".
Catching more flies with honey and all.
Martin Luther King had it right. He didn't go all aggro on people who hated on him, he took the higher road and accepted that there would always be people who didn't see or agree with his point of view.
In my humble opinion, tolerating assholes and not lowering yourself to arguing and hating on them for having a contrary point of view doesn't solve anything and only causes more strife and drama.
We'll never get over racism, sexism, homophobia and the like because there will always be people who just can't take it. I feel Mr. Card is conceding defeat on this issue and asking people to just let it go, which is classy even if he is a homophobe. He has said inflammatory things, but I've also heard people on the gay rights side of the fence say equally incendiary things against "breeders". There are bigots on both sides, and until we learn as a species to take to heart the free speech ideal that everyone is entitled to their opinion, the hate and debate will perpetuate.
The best way, in my view is to accept that there will be detractors to your viewpoint, there will be haters (haters gonna hate) and lashing out at them isn't going to make it better. Taking the stance of "I respect your right to have an opinion but I don't agree" is the only way we can move on from these childish tantrums. I understand that people on the LGBT side feel oppressed when someone speaks out against their lifestyle, but if they want to be accepted they in turn have to accept that not everyone will feel comfortable with it. When it goes beyond the opinion into the realm of straight up oppression, then there is a problem. But it must be handled with grace and civility.
Personally I believe what goes on behind closed doors is nobody's business but the people involved. I may not always agree with it, but I accept it is a "thing" and move on with life. I may from time to time say how I feel about it, and I have that right to express my feelings. But I also feel I must do so in a way that doesn't trash those I don't agree with. I expect the same respect from the people I don't agree with.
"I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Paraphrased from Voltaire.

Mumorpuger:
Unless a person incorporates their particular brand of prejudice into their works, I separate the creator from the creation. It seems like most people can't do that though.

He donates money to groups who campaign for, among other things, homosexuality being criminalized. When he wants people jailed for loving the 'wrong' person, and uses his money to help push that view forward, its a bit harder to want to give him my money.

Pickapok:

Please don't insult me or my emotional capacity. I am very capable of feeling just as pissed off as everybody else and by all means, be pissed off at Card as much as you want. But by boycotting this film people are doing more damage to the state of Hollywood as a whole than they are to Card himself. Hollywood needs good stories and good storytelling. You always hear that consumers vote with their wallets and that is very much true. Right now the message that Hollywood is getting is that the people want mindless explosions and action in the style of Michael Bay and that's killing creativity in film. It's part of the reason why so many of the great directors and actors have fled to make amazing television series like Hannibal and Game of Thrones.

Forget about Card. If we help Ender's Game become a success, who knows what we could see next? If both this film and Pcific Rim do well then we could finally see that At the Mountains of Madness film Guillermo Del Toro has been wanting to make for ages now.

If we see Ender's Game become a success, we're going to see a glut of OSC movies. We're probably going to see some sort of new sequel to Ender's Game which isn't Speaker for the Dead but something entirely new - written by OSC.

Ya think he'll do it for free?

Even if they do make SFtD, do you think OSC will give the movie rights away for free?

And if the movie is a success, how many thousands of print copies of Ender's Game (both the original and one based on the upcoming movie, which isn't going to be the same as the book from all accounts I've read) will be sold - and do you think none of that will go back to OSC?

You might be perfectly willing to help finance homophobia and intolerance because you're doing it indirectly, but there's a large number of people who aren't willing to perform that kind of double-think.

Haha you know I realized nobody has pointed this out, at least not on the first page. He's not even changing his tune about gay marriage. His quote is

"Now it will be interesting to see whether the victorious proponents of gay marriage will show tolerance toward those who disagreed with them when the issue was still in dispute"

He's asking for gay people to tolerate HIM. He's admitting defeat and then saying "no hard feelings guys?" It doesn't seem like he's changing his tune, rather he's hoping if he shuts up people wont care.

I'll see the movie if it's good and I won't see it if it's shit. His views are irrelevant in the decision.

That being said, he's still an asshole and should shut the fuck up. I do believe in free speech, but you're certainly required to take consequence for said speech. And in this case that consequence is me thinking you're an asshole.