Six-Year-Old Upset By Lack of Female Friendly Avengers Toys

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You know we all saw it coming, but u don't think anybody expected it to be a 6 year old who said it. I was expecting that Anita what's her name to be the one addressing it. Which is could because now I might actually care. I demand more black widow toys !

dversion:
Well first of all, can we keep from sounding angry at a small child "bitching" for a second.

I'm not angry at her, I'm angry at her parents who are clearly the ones pushing her to do this.

Kids are not political activists at age 6. >_>

-the rest-

Er no, you're clearly confused here.

A market that already exists doesn't need to be created.

There is already an Avengers toy line. There is already a Black Widow action figure. This girl and her parents are complaining that a toy doesn't exist even though it clearly does. That shows that they are very likely not even customers of the toy line to begin with, and are basing their complaint entirely on what they saw at their local toy store shelves.

So their opinions hold no weight whatsoever.

This would be like a non-gamer complaining about a lack of games that feature the US military shooting their guns at enemy soldiers. No one here would be saying "bravo, man, you should stand up for what you believe in ;_;". We'd all be calling him an idiot and telling him that Call of Duty is kind of a thing.

I believe the same rationale should apply here. There is a Black Widow action figure. There's also action figures of characters like the Invisible Woman, Rogue, Jean Grey, etc. If their complaint is really about a lack of female action figures, then they are WRONG and their demands for attention don't deserve to be given this level of acknowledgement.

I'm sorry, but if you're not willing to buy into the existing market and toy line, and aren't even educated on what toys are sold in the toy line, then you really don't deserve to have a bigger say in how the toy line is run than the people who are actually buying the toys. There is no universe in which that logic makes the least bit of sense.

Now if their complaint is more broad, like say, "there's a lack of female heroines in general", that's at least slightly more fair (although still wrong IMO as there are actually quite a few, though their fashion choices could use work). But you know how you encourage people to start making more female heroines? You buy products with existing female heroines and you say "this is why I bought it, and I'd buy more if you made more". You don't make a stupid video on YT whining about how there aren't enough of them. This really isn't all that complicated. As stupid as corporations are, they can pick up something as obvious as a significantly sized trend, people.

CriticKitten:

There is already an Avengers toy line. There is already a Black Widow action figure. This girl and her parents are complaining that a toy doesn't exist even though it clearly does. That shows that they are not even customers of the toy line to begin with.

So their opinions hold no weight whatsoever.

This would be like a non-gamer complaining about a lack of games that feature alchemy and cute girls, or sumi-e wolves.

I hate that whole "I fixed that for you" bit, but...I fixed that for you.

Yes there is a Black Widow figure in the Avengers movie line, but you have to jump through some crazy hoops to get it. And yes, $20 for a normally $9.99 action figure IS a crazy hoop for a six year old.

That's if you know that's available. It would be hard to miss, because she doesn't get the same exposure as Tony, Cap, and Thor.

And that's where you analogy falls apart. Shooty-shooty bang-bang games are heavily advertised and take up huge chunk of shelf space no matter where you ok. You'd find out about 'em, no matter how new to the hobby you are.

I guess this is all moot. This isn't about us, so it doesn't matter. Not like "Why are there so few copies of Fire Emblem" or "Why didn't more people buy Psychonauts or Okami". And she's a six year old girl, so she doesn't matter on two counts.

BarelyAudible:

Lightknight:
Aww, that's sad, the parents don't let their kids browse amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Select-Exclusive-Action-Figure/dp/B005OZOF52

That's the first action figure I found with a very basic google search.

Now, what wouldn't be fair would be to force stores with limited shelf space to carry a product that is less popular than any of the other products that could fit in that space. Capitalism, yo.

Regarding the pink ranger comment, amazon to the rescue! http://www.amazon.com/Power-Ranger-Samurai-Action-Figure/dp/B004H0MBPQ

This whole thread could have stopped at: "Six-year-old upset"

Thank for proving my point twice over. Did you look at the prices? Its bad enough that women are in short supply on the shelves, but you have to deal with the secondary market and their mark-ups!

Capta: comfort zone

Maybe if marketers got out of their comfort zone, we wouldn't have to deal with that.

Dude, she's the cheapest one.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dtoys-and-games&field-keywords=%22marvel+select+exclusive%22+action+figure&rh=n%3A165793011%2Ck%3A%22marvel+select+exclusive%22+action+figure

She's also only $14 new from third party markets and $21 from Amazon (with prime membership). All the other ones are over $30 even new from third party vendors and much higher with a prime membership from Amazon. You're not making a case here. You're showing how little the demand is and how easy to obtain (aka, less expensive) the female characters are.

Captain America is the best example on that list as he's from the same line as black widow. $35 (40% more expensive than black widow) new from third party vendors, $41.2 (50% more expensive than Black widow) from Amazon with a prime membership.

I AGREE WITH THIS LITTLE GIRL!!

I too would relish the opportunity to play with Scarlett Johansson.

Guess I'm getting frustrated because this reminds me of the "You got Samus and Lara! Isn't that good enough!" blarg.

BarelyAudible:
Yes there is a Black Widow figure in the Avengers movie line, but you have to jump through some crazy hoops to get it. And yes, $20 for a normally $9.99 action figure IS a crazy hoop for a six year old.

As someone else already pointed out, the figure exists and isn't actually all that expensive.

That's if you know that's available. It would be hard to miss, because she doesn't get the same exposure as Tony, Cap, and Thor.

And that might have something to do with the fact that she doesn't market or sell nearly as well.

Which is the same reason why we've had umpteen Superman movies and yet virtually nothing for Wonder Woman. It's not some massive conspiracy to keep women downtrodden, it's economics.

If women want to change that, they need to flex their purchasing power. I'm a strong believer in seeing more female heroines, but to get them, women need to show that the existing ones are sufficiently marketable to merit more. Companies don't speak of fairness, they speak of money, so the only way to get what you want is to give them what they want.

And that's where you analogy falls apart. Shooty-shooty bang-bang games are heavily advertised and take up huge chunk of shelf space no matter where you ok. You'd find out about 'em, no matter how new to the hobby you are.

Action figures in general aren't advertised all that much any more. Coincidentally, it's because they don't sell as well these days (last I heard, the market's still in decline), so they've had to drive their prices up to keep making profits on the things. Again, this isn't a conspiracy, it's economics.

I guess this is all moot. This isn't about us, so it doesn't matter. Not like "Why are there so few copies of Fire Emblem" or "Why didn't more people buy Psychonauts or Okami". And she's a six year old girl, so she doesn't matter on two counts.

Glad we agree on something. Really, this shouldn't be a news story at all.

Regardless of whether this is coerced or not the stat's bare out what Riley is saying and the truth is that the message - women are not as highly valued - begins right from the very early age that these hero's are coveted. The parents are teaching her well and i think awareness cannot begin too young, what scares the wimps who do not agree is their supremacy is limited. Go Riley - I think you are the hope for the future, your parents are doing a great job you are already smarter than most the idiots who have responded and feel threatened!

BarelyAudible:
Guess I'm getting frustrated because this reminds me of the "You got Samus and Lara! Isn't that good enough!" blarg.

Oh, I can certainly understand a girl's frustration over there not being enough good female superheros. That is entirely a valid complaint. I'll say that the demand isn't currently there, but the demand also isn't there because of a lack of good female characters. Same as in video games. A vicious self eating snake.

Please understand, my correcting the little girl was merely regarding a specific point. Not dismissing other, greater issues.

Mink68:
The parents are teaching her well ... parents are doing a great job

I disagree, what they should be teaching her is research. Because what the internet doesn't need is more people who don't bother to fact check.

CriticKitten:
Er no, you're clearly confused here.

A market that already exists doesn't need to be created.

There is already an Avengers toy line. There is already a Black Widow action figure. This girl and her parents are complaining that a toy doesn't exist even though it clearly does. That shows that they are very likely not even customers of the toy line to begin with, and are basing their complaint entirely on what they saw at their local toy store shelves.

So their opinions hold no weight whatsoever.

This would be like a non-gamer complaining about a lack of games that feature the US military shooting their guns at enemy soldiers. No one here would be saying "bravo, man, you should stand up for what you believe in ;_;". We'd all be calling him an idiot and telling him that Call of Duty is kind of a thing.

I believe the same rationale should apply here. There is a Black Widow action figure. There's also action figures of characters like the Invisible Woman, Rogue, Jean Grey, etc. If their complaint is really about a lack of female action figures, then they are WRONG and their demands for attention don't deserve to be given this level of acknowledgement.

I'm sorry, but if you're not willing to buy into the existing market and toy line, and aren't even educated on what toys are sold in the toy line, then you really don't deserve to have a bigger say in how the toy line is run than the people who are actually buying the toys. There is no universe in which that logic makes the least bit of sense.

Now if their complaint is more broad, like say, "there's a lack of female heroines in general", that's at least slightly more fair (although still wrong IMO as there are actually quite a few, though their fashion choices could use work). But you know how you encourage people to start making more female heroines? You buy products with existing female heroines and you say "this is why I bought it, and I'd buy more if you made more". You don't make a stupid video on YT whining about how there aren't enough of them. This really isn't all that complicated. As stupid as corporations are, they can pick up something as obvious as a significantly sized trend, people.

A product does not equal a market. It's neither aimed at nor tried to include the market of young girls.

thaluikhain:

MrGalactus:
and Amanda Waller, who is fat.

Not in the reboot. Can't have fat women in comics anymore, it seems.

While we are at it, though, pre-reboot Birds of Prey and Cassandra Cain were decent female characters, but they fixed this with the new 52.

Haven't been reading Birds of Prey, don't think I will. The current Marvel NOW! X-Men is all female (for now) with all distinct personalities, though. It's actually shaping up really well, to say there's only 2 issues out so far. Rouge kicks a whole lot of ass right now. Maybe they should fix the confusing mess that is the current X-Men
big screen continuity and start over in the Avengers movieverse with these current fe-
male characters. Bring something "for girls" to the mainstream.

So, out of curiosity I google imaged "New 52 Amanda Waller", and I have to say,
image
What the fuck happened? There are now 0 females in the comics world that aren't ridic-
ulously, impossibly attractive. Is this all comics artists know how to draw, or do th-
ey just have no imagination at all? If it's a publishing call, DC, please know that n-
obody buys a comic for porn. Nobody cares what they look like. Do something different
for once. That goes for everyone writing and drawing comics.

"Does anyone ever see any Black Widow packages? Does anyone ever see any Black Widow action figures?"

Uh, yes, I have, several times. I like to check out the toy section every now and then on my trips to Walmart, Target, etc. and back when the movie came out I saw several toys of her. Though I do admit that it was to a far less extent than some of the others. However, someone else can relate to the whole pretending that she-doesn't-exist thing: Hawkeye. The main problem for the lack of Black Widow toys is the same for him, that neither he nor she is one of the core four Avengers that were used to promote the hell out of the movie. They didn't have their own movies and they didn't have any super powers, genetic modifications, advanced technology, or anger problems, so they didn't attract the same amount of attention that the main four received. Hell, Nick muthafuckin' Fury and Agent Phil Coulson received far less attention as well, and that seems like far more of a tragedy to me. Sigh, I miss Phil.

This is so dumb from a marketing standpoint. I'm a geek. I have daughters. I want to get them comic book stuff. Black Widow would be fine. But I'd unload all kind of cash on Wasp or Hawkgirl stuff. Or Raven or Starfire from animated Teen Titans. They watch TT, Justice League, etc. all the time, know the cast and would love to have stuff from them. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

But instead... nothing. They've got some foam swords they love re-enacting fight scenes with. There's some Wonder Woman stuff out there, but not a lot. I know there's a bit of inherent sexism in most comics, but you'd think the marketing department would just go for the money.

I guess if all else fails, I can give one daughter a black dress, put a pair of her mom's heels on the floor, dress up the other daughter like a Russian general, and let them go to it. :D

Belaam:
This is so dumb from a marketing standpoint. I'm a geek. I have daughters. I want to get them comic book stuff. Black Widow would be fine. But I'd unload all kind of cash on Wasp or Hawkgirl stuff. Or Raven or Starfire from animated Teen Titans. They watch TT, Justice League, etc. all the time, know the cast and would love to have stuff from them. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

But instead... nothing. They've got some foam swords they love re-enacting fight scenes with. There's some Wonder Woman stuff out there, but not a lot. I know there's a bit of inherent sexism in most comics, but you'd think the marketing department would just go for the money.

I guess if all else fails, I can give one daughter a black dress, put a pair of her mom's heels on the floor, dress up the other daughter like a Russian general, and let them go to it. :D

1. The Wasp: http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Legends-Series-Action-Figure/dp/B000F900RY (there are others, none less than $20 but she's probably the least popular of the ones you mentioned, as evidenced by the Black Widow replacing her in the Avengers)

2. Hawkgirl: http://www.amazon.com/Justice-League-America-Hawkgirl-Action/dp/B000ULPGYY/ref=sr_1_22?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373783010&sr=1-22&keywords=hawkgirl (there's actually several different versions of Hawkgirl action figures. Some are pretty cool)

3. Raven (not sure which you're talking about, probably teen titan but they are actually rare in general: http://www.amazon.com/DC-Universe-Classics-Raven-Figure/dp/B002UHJTB2/ref=sr_1_3?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373783093&sr=1-3&keywords=raven

4. Starfire: http://www.amazon.com/Teen-Titans-Blackfire-Action-Figure/dp/B00023DF5M/ref=sr_1_12?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373783748&sr=1-12&keywords=starfire

5. Starfire and Raven: http://www.amazon.com/2012-SDCC-Comic-Exclusive-Titans/dp/B008M05KDC/ref=sr_1_4?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373783190&sr=1-4&keywords=raven+action+figure+teen+titans

Again: http://www.amazon.com/Mattel-Universe-Infinite-Starfire-Boomerang/dp/B0015H79JM/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373783272&sr=1-2&keywords=raven+teen+titans ($20 for both Starfire and Raven, these are the adult versions and not the teen versions)

I've noticed that teen titan action figures in general appear to be sparse in the traditional action figure sense. There's a cyborg Raven combo that is old. I mean, look at any of them and the prices are high. If they have Robin in them then they're even higher.

Here's a pretty badass Superwoman that reminds me of Raven if she loved America: http://www.amazon.com/DC-Direct-Superman-Krypton-Superwoman/dp/B003B9CALY/ref=pd_sim_t_1

The point is, all of these action figures exist and I've seen them in walmarts and targets but generally for small windows of time. If you really want to find stuff like that you should go to a local comic book store. They'll usually have these kinds of things. I have some pretty cool female character's from the DC Kingdom Come series. Designed by Alex Ross (my favorite artist that has a kind of Norman Rockwell nature to him).

There's a lot of female characters out there. They're just as available as the rest and are honestly usually cheaper than the male counterparts because they don't sell as well, you just have to actually look.

Lightknight:

There's a lot of female characters out there. They're just as available as the rest and are honestly usually cheaper than the male counterparts because they don't sell as well, you just have to actually look.

Those are good, and would probably even pick up a few for the 5yo's birthday next month, if it weren't for the fact that they seem to be more $20-$30 collectibles and less quick and easy toys I would give a pre-schooler without caring too much if they get trashed.

Additionally, I was really more looking for costumes as they both love dress up. Batman cowls abound, as do Cap shields, Ironman helms, Hulk fists, Spiderman webshooters, etc. All at major chain stores. Female kid costumes and props, however, are hard to find. Yeah, if I lived in a town with a good comic book store, I'd probably have better options, but I'm in the middle of nowhere and Kmart/Target are as good as my options get.

Phrozenflame500:
Not surprising. Not only because Avengers is generally aimed towards boys, but also because Black Widow happens to be one of the least marketable heroes in the set (everyone knows who the Hulk, Captain America and Iron Man are, but Black Widow?)

Wasn't Black Widow the token female character that provided the tight black jumpsuit? It seems no superhero movie is complete without a tight jumpsuit.

Belaam:

Lightknight:

There's a lot of female characters out there. They're just as available as the rest and are honestly usually cheaper than the male counterparts because they don't sell as well, you just have to actually look.

Those are good, and would probably even pick up a few for the 5yo's birthday next month, if it weren't for the fact that they seem to be more $20-$30 collectibles and less quick and easy toys I would give a pre-schooler without caring too much if they get trashed.

Additionally, I was really more looking for costumes as they both love dress up. Batman cowls abound, as do Cap shields, Ironman helms, Hulk fists, Spiderman webshooters, etc. All at major chain stores. Female kid costumes and props, however, are hard to find. Yeah, if I lived in a town with a good comic book store, I'd probably have better options, but I'm in the middle of nowhere and Kmart/Target are as good as my options get.

Actually, it's lucky you mentioned that because I found (but decided not to mention) two halloween costumes in the $25 range. One Starfire and the other was Raven.

Starfire ($25): http://www.amazon.com/Child-Starfire-Costume-Large-Size/dp/B003LRQZM6/ref=sr_1_19?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373790415&sr=1-19&keywords=starfire

Raven ($26): http://www.amazon.com/Halloween-Costumes-Titans-Raven-Costumes/dp/B009377QIU/ref=sr_1_9?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373790493&sr=1-9&keywords=raven+costume

That was only stuff I saw while looking up those names in the toy section so you could probably find better deals elsewhere.

But yes, you've stumbled onto the nature of kids toys meeting the collector's inflation all thanks to us comic book nerds. That $20 one at the end is for three action figures. Two are Starfire and Raven while the third is.. ummmm... Captain Boomerang *cough*. Not a bad deal but the adult version of Starfire isn't exactly great for kids as she's a bikini clad super hero.

But that was just a really quick list of characters, so you should be able to find better deals elsewhere. Let me see if I can find you a few female characters at around $10:

*Blackfire (Starfire): http://www.amazon.com/Teen-Titans-Blackfire-Action-Figure/dp/B00023DF5M/ref=sr_1_12?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373783748&sr=1-12&keywords=starfire

Black Canary ($2.47 but I don't know who would want her except the Green Arrow): http://www.amazon.com/DC-Universe-Infinite-Heroes-Years/dp/B003ANL0EY/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373791091&sr=1-2&keywords=female+action+figures+superheroes

Invisible Woman ($0.20, is this a joke price, it appears to be sold from reputable vendors so I guess not? This is an old school figure anyways so your kid may not want it) http://www.amazon.com/SUPERHEROES-FANTASTIC-INVISIBLE-CATAPULT-LAUNCHER/dp/B0009Y8IDS/ref=sr_1_1?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373791091&sr=1-1&keywords=female+action+figures+superheroes

*Female Wolverine? ($11.75 if you buy from new instead of the Amazon amount. Note that she's 3 3/4 inches) http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Universe-Series-Action-Figure/dp/B005C1CW1M/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373791304&sr=1-2-fkmr1&keywords=female+action+figures+superheroes

Psylocke ($9.99, there's actually several female characters in this series of 3 3/4 inch characters, so look around if that height doesn't bother you) http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Universe-Series-Action-Psylocke/dp/B005KSW0NC/ref=pd_bxgy_t_img_y

Power Girl ($8.99 if you click the "new" link on the page) http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Classic-Power-Girl-Figure/dp/B002S592HW/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373791304&sr=1-3-fkmr1&keywords=female+action+figures+superheroes

Raven ($7 from the new link, this is the adult version, not teen titans): http://www.amazon.com/DC-Universe-Classics-Raven-Figure/dp/B002UHJTB2/ref=sr_1_7?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373791632&sr=1-7&keywords=female+action+figures

3 3/4 inch Spider Woman ($10) http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Universe-Series-Action-SpiderWoman/dp/B004D1HB2M/ref=sr_1_32?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373791775&sr=1-32&keywords=female+action+figures_

*Diana Prince ($9, some kind of Wonder Woman line) http://www.amazon.com/Wonder-Woman-Series-Agent-Prince/dp/B000RF8PSM/ref=sr_1_21?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373792032&sr=1-21&keywords=woman+action+figures+superheroes

Zatana ($12) http://www.amazon.com/Identity-Crisis-Action-Figure-Series/dp/B0009F3DVO/ref=pd_sim_t_16

*Ones I find kind of interesting, actually.

I'm going to stop there. There's a ton that I just didn't link to that were in that price range. There's also plushies and other toys there. Ebay had some good stuff too but I thought Amazon would be more reliable to link to. You just have to research this stuff or you won't know it exists. You'll note that my links include the kinds of words I used to find them at the end (between plus symbols). So I didn't do anything unusual and trying other things may net much better results than mine.

I leave you with one joke, funny or not: http://www.amazon.com/Yahoo-Hotjobs-Powering-Superhero-Recruiter/dp/B004E7KFH8/ref=sr_1_5?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1373792286&sr=1-5&keywords=female+action+figures+superheroes

dversion:
A product does not equal a market. It's neither aimed at nor tried to include the market of young girls.

And MLP toys aren't marketed for teenage/adult males either.

But unless retail laws in your country specifically forbid people of that age and gender demographic from buying those products, I'm pretty sure they're still allowed to buy them.

Again: The girl's complaint is that characters like Black Widow don't have action figures. She is wrong, they actually DO have action figures of Black Widow and many other Marvel superheroines. So her complaint is wrong right from the start.

And if she's not actually going to buy into the toy line to begin with, then she's got no right to demand a greater say in the toy line than the people who actually buy the toys. When she starts buying the toys that she and her parents claimed didn't exist, she can start complaining, and maybe someone will care then.

I'm not sure why I need to keep repeating this, because it's so very simple. If you don't have any interest in buying a product and continue to show no interest in buying it, why should the company listen to you instead of the people who are buying it?

This isn't a discussion about what's "fair" in society, nor a discussion of gender equality. It's a discussion of logic and of business practices. Companies exist to sell goods and services to their customers, ergo the opinions of their customers should come first, the opinions of people who aren't currently their customers but might be some day should come second, and the opinions of people who will NEVER be their customers should not come up at all. If you're never going to buy their toys....why should they ever worry about catering to you?

CriticKitten:

dversion:
A product does not equal a market. It's neither aimed at nor tried to include the market of young girls.

And MLP toys aren't marketed for teenage/adult males either.

But unless retail laws in your country specifically forbid people of that age and gender demographic from buying those products, I'm pretty sure they're still allowed to buy them.

Again: The girl's complaint is that characters like Black Widow don't have action figures. She is wrong, they actually DO have action figures of Black Widow and many other Marvel superheroines. So her complaint is wrong right from the start.

And if she's not actually going to buy into the toy line to begin with, then she's got no right to demand a greater say in the toy line than the people who actually buy the toys. When she starts buying the toys that she and her parents claimed didn't exist, she can start complaining, and maybe someone will care then.

I'm not sure why I need to keep repeating this, because it's so very simple. If you don't have any interest in buying a product and continue to show no interest in buying it, why should the company listen to you instead of the people who are buying it?

This isn't a discussion about what's "fair" in society, nor a discussion of gender equality. It's a discussion of logic and of business practices. Companies exist to sell goods and services to their customers, ergo the opinions of their customers should come first, the opinions of people who aren't currently their customers but might be some day should come second, and the opinions of people who will NEVER be their customers should not come up at all. If you're never going to buy their toys....why should they ever worry about catering to you?

Reading dversion's post in another way may be taken a different way that would entirely agree with you and me (we seem to be on the same page) if you disregard the part where they said they aren't trying to market to girls (they are, they love money). A product is the manufactured object, in this case, the Black Widow. This is supply, 1/2 of what constitutes a market. The other half, demand, wouldn't just be her wanting the action figure, but being willing and able to pay for said action figure. The lack of demand would be enough to de-legitimize the market even if companies produce them (and they do).

This then, would be more of an observation of girl's tastes in toys, whether socially driven or biologically (or something in between which is usually the case with most things). That even though these toys do exist, they are not popular enough to be stocked on shelves longterm. That being said, I did see a black widow action figure in Walmart around the time of the Avenger's movie. So I'm also not convinced that these wouldn't be available in stores when they're popular. In any event, if girls actually buy these action figures significantly less than males buy male action figures, then complaining about this would be akin to complaining about pantyhose not being made with enough room to comfortably contain a male organ due to them almost all being made with women in mind. Except, in this case, the product is really and regularly being made and is completely available on the market and usually at a lower cost due to reduced demand. So, complaint=invalid.

CriticKitten:

dversion:
A product does not equal a market. It's neither aimed at nor tried to include the market of young girls.

And MLP toys aren't marketed for teenage/adult males either.

But unless retail laws in your country specifically forbid people of that age and gender demographic from buying those products, I'm pretty sure they're still allowed to buy them.

Again: The girl's complaint is that characters like Black Widow don't have action figures. She is wrong, they actually DO have action figures of Black Widow and many other Marvel superheroines. So her complaint is wrong right from the start.

And if she's not actually going to buy into the toy line to begin with, then she's got no right to demand a greater say in the toy line than the people who actually buy the toys. When she starts buying the toys that she and her parents claimed didn't exist, she can start complaining, and maybe someone will care then.

I'm not sure why I need to keep repeating this, because it's so very simple. If you don't have any interest in buying a product and continue to show no interest in buying it, why should the company listen to you instead of the people who are buying it?

This isn't a discussion about what's "fair" in society, nor a discussion of gender equality. It's a discussion of logic and of business practices. Companies exist to sell goods and services to their customers, ergo the opinions of their customers should come first, the opinions of people who aren't currently their customers but might be some day should come second, and the opinions of people who will NEVER be their customers should not come up at all. If you're never going to buy their toys....why should they ever worry about catering to you?

And I'm discussing the logic of business practices here with you, just trying to clarify how it works. While the conclusion may be the same, I believe you do not understand the reasons for it. Again, it's all about the risk.

Demographics do not equal markets. Demographics are included in markets, sure, but markets are proven trends in any given industry. For instance, the market exists to sell boys these action figures. It's less about the personal opinion of these boys and more about the many billions of dollars spent over many years to create a market to convince boys that they want these products.

It's much less about listening to the opinions of their customers and more about changing their opinions.

I understand your point of their already being a black widow action figure and that she should have looked for it before complaining, though some folk on this thread have said that it is exceedingly difficult to even find,let alone buy.

The larger issue is that Black Widow is most likely not widely available because there has not been a market set up for that character. Think about it as Thor, Captain, Iron men, these are essentially large commercials to convince boys to buy merchandise as far as the market is concerned, there was no market, really, set up for Black Widow.

Targeting markets has the effect of alienating potential demographics and widening the market. It's interesting because Avengers would not have made the money it did if only boys and men watched it, clearly the market there was expanding. But there had already been so much work into labeling action figures as toys just for boys that I'm guessing attempting to expand the market to include young girls with black widow would have involved the terrible R word.

My Little Pony is an interesting case study but I'm not sure it disproves how markets generally work. With MLP fans, there was development of a community around boys and men who said they enjoyed the show. This validated their enjoyment of the show whereas the market tried to alienate them. They overcame the targeting market because of this community

It reminds of Sailor Moon, now I know using anecdotal evidence is the worst sin but I'm interested if anyone else had the same dynamic in their childhood. Everyone Watched Sailor Moon but really, in the playground, only girls admitted it. This was because the marketing around the show told the young boys and girls that only one gender should be enjoying this franchise and should be buying the products. If they made an effort to expand the market, I would have felt like I was supposed to or at least allowed to enjoy it.

And in the end, that's what markets do, they put their resources into convincing a potential demographic or industry or interest group that they need the product that they're selling. And if one market has already been set up and proven that they are willing to buy similar products then there is less risk involved.

shirkbot:

This made me chuckle, so I shall re-post it for all. Thank you.

He's very good at writing team dynamics, but otherwise he's nothing particularly special.

I agree. I think he's a solid writer, and an entertaining writer. I enjoy a lot of what he's done. If I were the type of person who did organised lists well, Buffy would probably be somewhere on my Top Ten. Firefly would be pretty high up my list, I imagine, as well.

He's just not...What's that word I'm looking for? Brilliant.

Companies will almost always use old ideas until they make negative money before attempting new ideas. It's part of the reason the U.S. has such absurd copyright laws: Companies just want to use the same properties and ideas forever. If you want something new you basically have to have a new company do it or legally end their ability to do what they've been doing.

Due to formatting, I almost just quoted myself and agreed with me instead of you!

The "negative money" threshold is pretty much why action figures aren't going to open themselves up to girls any time soon. at least, not without external prompting. Because barring massive social upheaval, boys are still going to be major consumers of action figures. It's not like you're going to "lose money" targeting boys. And they aren't looking to see whether there's money elsewhere.

Copyright is just annoying the way it's been rigged.

Desert Punk:
Seriously... the fact that she isnt on the BOX is a problem?

Fuck the PC brigade, Nick Fury and Hawk Eye arent on the box's either even though their action figures exist..

The four main heros and Loki are the focus of the action figures, not the supporting characters.

It's pretty clear that if you don't have your your own comic film rebooted successfully in the last 10 years, you don't get premium placement on Avengers packaging. Gender doesn't really come into it, apart from much higher up the chain, in the movie exec's offices.

Well I don't think anyone can blame for not know there was a Black Widow toy. I've never seen it advertised at all.

She brings up good points though. Black Widow isn't a side character and she's not exactly pushed to the back in the marketing for the movies yet she's not even put on the box. Doesn't even have to be on the front. there's lot of toys that put more characters on the back to advertise other figures.

And to the people who say "Avengers is a boy's thing!", 50% of the fanbase is female, I think we can all agree that your argument is invalid.

Abomination:
Oh boo fucking hoo. This is getting droll pretty damn fast.

How dare a comic series aimed mostly at males for a good 60 years have mostly male characters in the primary roles!

But isn't that the whole point? Why does a comic series de facto have to be aimed 'mostly at males'? Are there not plenty of girls who might enjoy a comic book movie? And are boys incapable of enjoying a movie that features a female protagonist? What's wrong with challenging these things?

Flatfrog:

Abomination:
Oh boo fucking hoo. This is getting droll pretty damn fast.

How dare a comic series aimed mostly at males for a good 60 years have mostly male characters in the primary roles!

But isn't that the whole point? Why does a comic series de facto have to be aimed 'mostly at males'? Are there not plenty of girls who might enjoy a comic book movie? And are boys incapable of enjoying a movie that features a female protagonist? What's wrong with challenging these things?

The whole point is to make money. You put your money on the sure bets and 6 year old girls are not the fucking sure bet.

Hawkeye and Black Widow are the least useful members of the team anyway - it's probably why they only got cameos and not actual movies. A Miss Marvel movie would probably have allowed her to be a member of The Avengers but studio execs can't even get a Wonder Woman film off the ground and she's far more recognized.

So boo-fucking-hoo. Yeah it could be better but it isn't going to happen any time soon. Gonna need more support than just a 6 year old girl to get the corporate clout to make some waves here.

That's the reality of the situation. Hope in one hand and shit in the other. Guess which one will fill up faster?

Abomination:

Hawkeye and Black Widow are the least useful members of the team anyway - it's probably why they only got cameos and not actual movies. A Miss Marvel movie would probably have allowed her to be a member of The Avengers but studio execs can't even get a Wonder Woman film off the ground and she's far more recognized.

So boo-fucking-hoo. Yeah it could be better but it isn't going to happen any time soon. Gonna need more support than just a 6 year old girl to get the corporate clout to make some waves here.

So we should just accept that crappy situation and stop complaining? Isn't that a bit counterproductive? Surely the only thing that might persuade the corporate minds to put up the cash to try a more equal movie would be this kind of campaign and discussion, wouldn't it?

I understand that the Avengers haven't really got a lot of decent female characters to work with but it would have been nice to see them at least trying a single movie with a female lead in Phase 2. Wasp isn't much of a character in the comics, but then neither are any of them, frankly - a decent scriptwriter could make a fantastic movie for her. For that matter, couldn't we have had a Black Widow movie, now we've got the character set up? The only female-led comic book movies I can think of were Catwoman (ugh) and Elektra (actually pretty decent). The fact that we haven't had a Wonder Woman movie yet is frankly outrageous.

It's not all bad, of course - the X-Men movies have been pretty balanced in their gender mix and featured some great female characters.

Stalydan:
Well I don't think anyone can blame for not know there was a Black Widow toy. I've never seen it advertised at all.

She brings up good points though. Black Widow isn't a side character and she's not exactly pushed to the back in the marketing for the movies yet she's not even put on the box. Doesn't even have to be on the front. there's lot of toys that put more characters on the back to advertise other figures.

And to the people who say "Avengers is a boy's thing!", 50% of the fanbase is female, I think we can all agree that your argument is invalid.

Huh? She isn't a side character? No,she definitely is. Her and hawkeye. I'm surprised that Captain America is able to play the role he did. But that's the problem of superheros that don't have super powers when they're placed along side other heroes or villains that do have super powers.

That being said, she is most certainly advertised as much as the others. She's on every poster and every add that is for the toys themselves. There isn't a mask for her or a weapon but that's because she doesn't have a mask or noteable weapon. When I saw her on shelves around the time the movie came out, she was right next to all the others.

There just isn't a high demand for her. Even girls might rather have Iron Man or the Hulk first.

CriticalMiss:
Woo, right on sister! Death to the manfolk and all that. They can take our high paying jobs but they'll never have a monopoly on all the cool action figures! *burns bra*

For realsies, that Black Widow toy is kind of ugly looking. And I don't remember her using a four foot grappling hook in the film. Then again, I don't remember Iron Man having an electrified sawblade or Captain America using a bazooka that fire shields. What does Hulk get? Nothing but the shorts on his butt. If anyone should be pissed about inequality in toys it's the giant green rage monsters.

Your post made me smile, sincerely!

I would have thought the Black Widow was a popular figurine. She added that human element to the whole thing that was sorely needed (even though I thought she was poorly used during the end battle), while still being skilled and obviously tough.

Huh, captcha just asked me "ARE YOU A HUMAN?"

...

oddly, when I got that wrong, it told me I was 'other worldly'.

dversion:
-snip-

1) The girl's complaint is based on incorrect information. It's entirely wrong.

2) It is an individual's choice what they want to like. Marketing for a toy may appeal to one particular gender but that doesn't mean the other gender is forbidden from buying it.

And until we get you to understand these two rather obvious things, this discussion will never go anywhere.

MLP is a perfect example of this, actually. MLP is specifically marketed to little girls. However, a male demographic emerged that enjoyed the show, and as such, began buying the toys as a show of support to Hasbro. This surprised Hasbro to such a big degree that the show was already starting to pander to its new audience by the start of Season 2, and started pushing more types of MLP merchandise out there for fans to gobble up. This succeeded so well for Hasbro that MLP has singlehandedly kept them in the black for the last few years, despite falling sales in almost all of their other franchises.

Hasbro never tried to alienate its new audience. Quite the contrary, they embraced it happily in an age where such toys are starting to die out. It was other folks on the internet (and society at large) who started trying to alienate the community.

The same COULD happen for superheroes, but only if the female demographic is willing and able to show their support for the products that are available. Right now, what this girl and her parents are doing is pretending that the toys don't exist (they do) and refusing to support the market until they do. So....the company is going to ignore her, as they should. Why would they take a risk on a market that hasn't given any indication that it really wants these toys?

You really don't get a say in what a company sells (unless it's "scandalous" in some fashion) if you're not a customer of that company. Period.

Flatfrog:
-snip-

You realize you just answered your own question of why companies don't invest more money in superheroines, right?

The only two recent movies with female superhero leads have been Catwoman and Elektra, two movies that were almost universally panned by critics and sold poorly at the box office.

Of course no one wants to pour money into female superheroes: they clearly don't do a very good job making movies for these people, and they don't sell very well either.

When these so-called "female activists" start putting money where their mouths are, maybe companies will change their minds. As it stands? Words are pretty and all, but companies can't make any profits on words.

CriticKitten:

MLP is a perfect example of this, actually. MLP is specifically marketed to little girls. However, a male demographic emerged that enjoyed the show, and as such, began buying the toys as a show of support to Hasbro. This surprised Hasbro to such a big degree that the show was already starting to pander to its new audience by the start of Season 2, and started pushing more types of MLP merchandise out there for fans to gobble up. This succeeded so well for Hasbro that MLP has singlehandedly kept them in the black for the last few years, despite falling sales in almost all of their other franchises.

All right, so why does the same not happen with superhero movies? That does have a significant number of female fans who might be more attracted to it if it had more elements aimed at them. Instead, they're told 'no, this is a boy's thing, get over it'. They can buy into the boys' stuff or fuck off.

The same COULD happen for superheroes, but only if the female demographic is willing and able to show their support for the products that are available. Right now, what this girl and her parents are doing is pretending that the toys don't exist (they do) and refusing to support the market until they do. So....the company is going to ignore her, as they should. Why would they take a risk on a market that hasn't given any indication that it really wants these toys?

No, that's just a crappy argument. (I haven't watched this particular video because it sounds stupid, so these are just points in general) You're saying that if girls hang in long enough, keep buying the boys' toys like good little consumers, eventually Marvel will deign to market to them? Is it not more likely to happen if they make a fuss and say 'we'd love to buy your merchandising if you provide us with something that doesn't exclude us?'

You really don't get a say in what a company sells (unless it's "scandalous" in some fashion) if you're not a customer of that company. Period.

Is that how marketing works? I thought the way it was supposed to work was that companies researched potential consumers, made products and marketed those to those consumers. Since when are we supposed to buy the products *first*?

You realize you just answered your own question of why companies don't invest more money in superheroines, right?

The only two recent movies with female superhero leads have been Catwoman and Elektra, two movies that were almost universally panned by critics and sold poorly at the box office.

Of course no one wants to pour money into female superheroes: they clearly don't do a very good job making movies for these people, and they don't sell very well either.

Oh, I'm quite aware that this is their logic, but that doesn't make it right (Although I don't know why Elektra was so badly received by critics; it was a much better film than Daredevil). The same logic was what kept studios from making comic book movies at all for years after a long string of flops. And I'll bet until Twilight everyone thought you couldn't market supernatural fantasy to girls either. One day someone will take the plunge, make a really good superhero movie with a female protagonist - probably a little-known one, since Wonder Woman seems destined to be in development hell forever and almost certainly will end up a mess. Only then will we be able to see whether the prevailing wisdom is actually correct.

Flatfrog:
All right, so why does the same not happen with superhero movies? That does have a significant number of female fans who might be more attracted to it if it had more elements aimed at them. Instead, they're told 'no, this is a boy's thing, get over it'. They can buy into the boys' stuff or fuck off.

That's how MLP's male fans were treated by the public, hell, how they're still treated now. It wasn't until they became a significant market force and a populist movement that suddenly catering to those "freaks" became less a risk and more like free money.

So, yes. They can buy into the boys' products and eventually earn a say in the market, or get over it. That may sound harsh to you, but that's how business works.

No, that's just a crappy argument. (I haven't watched this particular video because it sounds stupid, so these are just points in general) You're saying that if girls hang in long enough, keep buying the boys' toys like good little consumers, eventually Marvel will deign to market to them? Is it not more likely to happen if they make a fuss and say 'we'd love to buy your merchandising if you provide us with something that doesn't exclude us?'

Is that how marketing works? I thought the way it was supposed to work was that companies researched potential consumers, made products and marketed those to those consumers. Since when are we supposed to buy the products *first*?

Anyone can promise to buy products if you just fulfill Requirements X, Y, and Z. Rarely do customers actually deliver on those promises. Words are meaningless.

When the market "demanded" more female superheroes, more were introduced and several got their own spin-offs. They sucked, they bombed at the box office, and studios said "well we're not doing THAT again".

You are not going to invest millions of dollars into making a product that you have no reason to suspect will succeed. EVER. Especially when the customer has already shown that when you DO try to appeal to them, you don't make your money back on those investments.

I really don't understand why this is so hard for you to wrap your head around. It's common sense.

Oh, I'm quite aware that this is their logic, but that doesn't make it right (Although I don't know why Elektra was so badly received by critics; it was a much better film than Daredevil). The same logic was what kept studios from making comic book movies at all for years after a long string of flops. And I'll bet until Twilight everyone thought you couldn't market supernatural fantasy to girls either. One day someone will take the plunge, make a really good superhero movie with a female protagonist - probably a little-known one, since Wonder Woman seems destined to be in development hell forever and almost certainly will end up a mess. Only then will we be able to see whether the prevailing wisdom is actually correct.

Then you're welcome to start up your own comic book series with lots of female superheroes in it, and then you're also welcome to turn those female superheroes into billion-dollar box office successes. If it's really so easy, by all means, do it.

Marvel and DC have tried to appeal to the female market many, many times in the past. The demand has never been nearly as strong as the male market, and it's rarely enough of a demand to recoup the costs of investing into it in the first place. You're asking a company to invest its money into waters that it has already tested and failed to succeed in. And you're asking them to do so because otherwise "it's not right".

I'm sorry to inform you, but businesses do not run on "right" or "wrong". They run on money. And money has no innate morality to it. If the demand isn't there, companies are within their right not to throw lots of money at it when they're not guaranteed any sort of reasonable return on that investment. You can bitch and moan all you want about the "morality" of the situation but, for the final time, this isn't a discussion of morality or equality, it's a discussion about the financial viability of a market that has already proven itself virtually non-existent. You have no standing here. None.

Yes, eventually there may come a day when female superheroes sell as well as male ones do. But it's not today, and you have no right to demand that Marvel or DC bend to your ridiculous demands for "equality" in a world where the female superheroes simply don't sell. The video game market is in the same rut. And while it'd be wonderful to say otherwise and I'd love to see more female leads in such positions....it's not the reality of the world we face today. When that reality changes, then we can start talking about equality. Not before.

...Are people really complaining that the female characters are 'attractive?'
There's a difference between sexualized and attractive. The most you get of sexualization with comic book characters most of the time is cleavage. Oh noes.
Otherwise, they are just pretty.
Are people suddenly clamoring to have heroines that look like Deadpool without his suit?

mythgraven:
No one deserves to be treated like shit, but true equality means, everyone gets treated like shit. Equality means you no longer get special interest groups, or special rights, equality means no chivalry, equality means neither sex is subordinate, but that neither sex gets any sort of courtesy either.

And this is a bad thing because?

Go on, spin me a story; I challenge you.

CriticKitten:
1) The girl's complaint is based on incorrect information. It's entirely wrong.

2) It is an individual's choice what they want to like. Marketing for a toy may appeal to one particular gender but that doesn't mean the other gender is forbidden from buying it.

And until we get you to understand these two rather obvious things, this discussion will never go anywhere.

MLP is a perfect example of this, actually. MLP is specifically marketed to little girls. However, a male demographic emerged that enjoyed the show, and as such, began buying the toys as a show of support to Hasbro. This surprised Hasbro to such a big degree that the show was already starting to pander to its new audience by the start of Season 2, and started pushing more types of MLP merchandise out there for fans to gobble up. This succeeded so well for Hasbro that MLP has singlehandedly kept them in the black for the last few years, despite falling sales in almost all of their other franchises.

Hasbro never tried to alienate its new audience. Quite the contrary, they embraced it happily in an age where such toys are starting to die out. It was other folks on the internet (and society at large) who started trying to alienate the community.

The same COULD happen for superheroes, but only if the female demographic is willing and able to show their support for the products that are available. Right now, what this girl and her parents are doing is pretending that the toys don't exist (they do) and refusing to support the market until they do. So....the company is going to ignore her, as they should. Why would they take a risk on a market that hasn't given any indication that it really wants these toys?

You really don't get a say in what a company sells (unless it's "scandalous" in some fashion) if you're not a customer of that company. Period.

So, I'm not exactly sure what you think I was trying to argue.

I'm not arguing that anything should be done or that she is right to complain. that's not at all what I was trying to discuss.

What I was talking about was this idea of seemingly putting out some neutral product, releasing it into the world and seeing who buys it and if one demographic does not buy it must mean they never would want it and never will. That's not really how capitalism works, sometimes unexpected demographics will enjoy something and in the case of MLP, a sort of online community formed to cultivate the interest, but it is not usually how it goes down. Most products these days, especially kid's toys are very targeted, highly invested in, and have existing markets.

It does not mean Black Widow action figures would not be bought by young girls ever because they just don't like it. If There was an investment in that market and an attempt to cultivate it, you would most likely see more of that demographic willing to buy it. But, like you said, that's a risk. And the market for young boys already exists and has many investors in it so it's better to stick with the market they've poured billions of dollars into cultivating.

Like I said, I think the MLP fans are a very interesting case study and if you have some stuff about how Hasbro has been trying to include this demographic, I'd love to look it over. I have not really seen any commercails with men in their 20's enjoying the various MLP products however. It's certainly not the first time something like this happened. There was the push to create the gender-neutral easy bake oven for instance.

And yes, from a capitalistic standpoint, expanding the market evolves a lot of risk, that has been what I've been saying since we started this conversation of ours.

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