Six-Year-Old Upset By Lack of Female Friendly Avengers Toys

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I'd have preferred Ms. Marvel in the first place. I just don't find much interest in the old superspy characters. I didn't care about Nick Fury until they made him black. Ooh, maybe they could do the same with Black Wid- oh, yeah, maybe not.

I have to say, I agree with the premise, but... a while back, I was in the store when I saw this lanky, dorky-looking 11 year old girl holding a Captain America shield and mask that she'd successfully negotiated her mother to buy for her, and it sort of made me happy in some unexplainable way.

DVS BSTrD:
They couldn't figure out how to make her ass visible from all directions at once.

Simple solution. Just make her rotate 360 degrees at the waist.

CriticalMiss:

For realsies, that Black Widow toy is kind of ugly looking.

No wonder she's hard to find.

If anyone should be pissed about inequality in toys it's the giant green rage monsters.

Why do you think he hasn't turned back into Banner?

Daria.Morgendorffer:
Ah, yes, Joss Whedon lamenting the poor, downtrodden women.

Pepper Potts in Daisy Dukes, Maria Hill's uniform includes platforms and Black Widow's wiles consist specifically of being as sexy as possible at all times while appearing nice and intimidatable.

Joss Whedon can bite me for his fucking crocodile tears for women.

It's the public's fault for taking him and raising him up as some sort of supa feminist icon.

Terramax:

Companies like to stereotype. But they like to make money more.

Companies like to play conservative and are not always welcoming of new ideas. The fact that developers need to fight to just to get female focus group reps should indicate something's wrong here.

We just had a major automotive failure in this country in part because the automotive industry decided to hell with new ideas, let's push large, expensive gas guzzlers in a bad economy and amidst high gas prices!

And now they're pushing to pass laws restricting sales of electric cars (look at Tesla). I know the automotive industry isn't exactly the toy industry, but the whole "companies love money more than X" isn't always enough to break their mentality.

Actually, from the looks of things, it's quite frequently not enough.

I guess this is what happens when your comics are established in the 50's and comic enthusiasts are incredibly resistant to changing anything.

This might be a good time for someone to remind the Howler Monkeys in charge at DC/WB that they own the rights to two of the most recognisable female superheroes on the planet before Marvel beat them (yet again) to the punch with characters like Ms. Marvel.

If she'd like to have a right to bitch about the toy line, then perhaps she might consider actually talking her friends into buying the toy that clearly DOES exist for Black Widow?

No? Then why should we care what this six-year-old and her PC mother have to say?

Companies would be more willing to market those toys to girls if the girls actually made up a significant portion of the demographic, and they'd make more female action figures in their toy line if those were the most purchased. As it stands, they're not in both cases.

Hell, when the bronies started buying up Hasbro's rather poorly designed cheap plastic MLP toys, the execs were so awe-struck at the rise of this big new demographic that they actually started talking about making more products to cater specifically to that crowd (though I don't know if they ever got anywhere with the idea). This is what happens when you become a market force: the company starts to want more of your business and, as such, starts listening to you more. She and her mother have no real ground to stand on here. Choosing bitch and moan about the lack of female characters if she hasn't bought the ones that exist (and judging from the fact that she didn't even know there was a Black Widow action figure, she clearly hasn't) isn't going to get her the attention she craves. You don't get as much of a say in the market if you're not contributing to it.

That's the way it is in business. Rise to the occasion or deal with it.

Mahorfeus:
This is one of the reasons I have to give the Star Wars toy makers props. They make an action figure for every single damned character, even if nobody gives a crap about them. Remember that one guy from that one scene that didn't have any lines but he popped up for like 2 seconds? Here, have an action figure of him!

When the face is a prune, then action goes BOOM!

Yet no one complains that Hawkeye isnt in the box too, they are minor characters in comparision to the big 4/5 if you count the villain.

Man, it always bothered me that the female characters got shortpacked so often. Made them rare, thus collectable, thus frikking expensive.
Thunderblast from Transformers (Ya know, the femmebot that turned into a boat?)goes for 80 dollars these days!

But yeah, I didn't even have to watch the movie to know how minor she, and Hawkeye would be.
http://youtu.be/pb9l988kqL4
As much as I loathe it, if there's anything truely aimed at males, it's action figures, and they target's often too young to buy on sex appeal. or be caught dead playing with something that has boobs.

I grew up on a mixed bag. MLP, GI Joe, transformers, stuffed animals. I collect a little now and then.

Zachary Amaranth:

We just had a major automotive failure in this country in part because the automotive industry decided to hell with new ideas, let's push large, expensive gas guzzlers in a bad economy and amidst high gas prices!

And now they're pushing to pass laws restricting sales of electric cars (look at Tesla). I know the automotive industry isn't exactly the toy industry, but the whole "companies love money more than X" isn't always enough to break their mentality.

Actually, from the looks of things, it's quite frequently not enough.

Whilst I get the point, I don't think this is the best example. Electric cars have been restricted in the US exactly because of wanting to make more money out of petrol-fueled cars. I think if anything, this example proves how their lust for squeezing as much money as possible actually backfired on them, and confirms their narrow mindedness due to the want for financial gain.

So, I wonder how much of this is her just regurgitating what she hears her parents are saying. I'm serious. If her parents came out and said this they would be just more people complaining on the internet, but because they get their 6 year old daughter to say it she gets headlines. Wonder if I could start a business out of this... But what should I call it? Damn, everything I come up with makes me sound like a pedo. :(

OT- They make a Black Widow action figure, but she is not in the box art. Deal with it.

Sarge034:
So, I wonder how much of this is her just regurgitating what she hears her parents are saying. I'm serious. If her parents came out and said this they would be just more people complaining on the internet, but because they get their 6 year old daughter to say it she gets headlines. Wonder if I could start a business out of this... But what should I call it? Damn, everything I come up with makes me sound like a pedo. :(

OT- They make a Black Widow action figure, but she is not in the box art. Deal with it.

Introducing: "Kids Say!"

"Have an issue you want brought to public attention, are you too annoying or not influential enough to have people care about your issue? Dont worry, we at Kids Say will have one of our talented child actors pretend to care about your issue, and make a heart felt youtube video guaranteed to make headlines or your money back!"

The name and tagline will only cost you 99.99 USD. :P

Desert Punk:
Introducing: "Kids Say!"

"Have an issue you want brought to public attention, are you too annoying or not influential enough to have people care about your issue? Dont worry, we at Kids Say will have one of our talented child actors pretend to care about your issue, and make a heart felt youtube video guaranteed to make headlines or your money back!"

The name and tagline will only cost you 99.99 USD. :P

While I like the name, I'm not willing to shell out the cash sooo...

Introducing: "Youthful Assertions"!

I'll get my marketing team to come up with the snazzy blurb, so I'm free and clear.

Honestly? I wish they would stop trying to put female characters in comic books as anything but a plot device altogether, and I'm a girl. No, it's not because "omg they get in the way of my hot boys", it's that they can't create any character without a Y chromosome and not absolutely ruin her. I mean, seriously, male superheroes are cool, but female superheroes? And supervillains, for that matter. I mean, come on, they couldn't even get a female version of their own long-lived character right.

I may be generalizing here, but I think a lot of the problem has to do with the fact that most comic book creators have never interacted with a girl they didn't draw. Of course, Sailor Moon was written by a woman, and look how well that turned out. But seriously, you have the female love interests (who exist to get saved), the female superheroes (who exist to get saved while wearing spandex), and Aunt May (who exists to hit the villain over the head with her purse while waiting to be saved).

There is no Black Widow action figure? Because I got this one as a gift last month: http://www.hottoys.com.hk/productDetail.php?productID=75

Let me check...

Yep, it's still next to the TV set.

DON'T JUDGE ME!

CriticKitten:
If she'd like to have a right to bitch about the toy line, then perhaps she might consider actually talking her friends into buying the toy that clearly DOES exist for Black Widow?

No? Then why should we care what this six-year-old and her PC mother have to say?

Companies would be more willing to market those toys to girls if the girls actually made up a significant portion of the demographic, and they'd make more female action figures in their toy line if those were the most purchased. As it stands, they're not in both cases.

Hell, when the bronies started buying up Hasbro's rather poorly designed cheap plastic MLP toys, the execs were so awe-struck at the rise of this big new demographic that they actually started talking about making more products to cater specifically to that crowd (though I don't know if they ever got anywhere with the idea). This is what happens when you become a market force: the company starts to want more of your business and, as such, starts listening to you more. She and her mother have no real ground to stand on here. Choosing bitch and moan about the lack of female characters if she hasn't bought the ones that exist (and judging from the fact that she didn't even know there was a Black Widow action figure, she clearly hasn't) isn't going to get her the attention she craves. You don't get as much of a say in the market if you're not contributing to it.

That's the way it is in business. Rise to the occasion or deal with it.

Mahorfeus:
This is one of the reasons I have to give the Star Wars toy makers props. They make an action figure for every single damned character, even if nobody gives a crap about them. Remember that one guy from that one scene that didn't have any lines but he popped up for like 2 seconds? Here, have an action figure of him!

Well first of all, can we keep from sounding angry at a small child "bitching" for a second.

So there's an often misconception I see pop up a lot of the times, I hear it all the time when we talk about females in gaming for instance. It goes something like "If there was a market for it, they'd sell it to them."

Only market forces, and marketing in particular is not as static as that.

They can change and do change all the time. However, it involves a lot of work and a scary word known as 'risk'

Marketing is less about finding a substantial market who will happen to enjoy the product and more about convincing a market, or in many cases, creating a market.

This is done through media reinforcing ideas and convincing people that they want this product. Kids especially are vulnerable to these tactics.

So let's say girls don't like comic heroes, they like pink playhouses. This is partially true, depending on how you look at it. While this market may exist, it's not a natural 'truth' and has not always been true. It's just that the effort to create that market has already existed for a long time and media and society reinforces these ideas. To try and tap into and support a market, especially when the noise of media is so great, is difficult to do.

But with kids, I think kids are kids. They're a market for pretty much anything. They'll play with whatever. I made the shit out of some easy bake oven back in the day. It's s shame DC and Marvel are still fighting for scraps over the market for boys because clearly girls dig it too.

Adam Jensen:
There is no Black Widow action figure? Because I got this one as a gift last month: http://www.hottoys.com.hk/productDetail.php?productID=75

Let me check...

Yep, it's still next to the TV set.

DON'T JUDGE ME!

Holy fuck, dat detail...

Ahem, anyways, clearly this action figure and the website are a figment of your imagination. Nothing to see here citizens, we have already called for the psytechs.

Since when was Avengers as a franchise ever aimed at females? Actually let me rephrase that, since when has ANY superhero-comic-based movie ever been aimed at females in any way??
Everyone knows why Black Widow was in the movie...it's not for her abilities (or even her role), it's because Scarlett Johansson is HOT and guys will automatically enjoy such a character as long as she's not too bitchy/useless. That's a niche which Black Widow fills in nicely, that's why she's there. What? Everyone's thinking it :P

Too bad this 6 year old girl isn't aware that Black Widow action figures are likely to in far higher demand from grown-up males than little girls, and there is a huge cult-like demographic of female action-figure collectors that far exceeds her tiny imagination.

Then again I don't really blame her, she's fucking 6.

Next week: Six year old girl upset by sky being blue

RJ 17:
To be fair, I do get where you're coming from, but my comparison was really on a general level. Vegeta was a bad guy that turns good, just like Hawkeye. Granted, Hawkeye was a good guy before he became a bad guy that became a good guy again, still, that's what my comparison was based on.

Beyond that, Hawkeye was far more useful than Tien and/or Yamacha could ever hope to be. :P

Let's be honest. Pretty much every DBZ character that wasn't Goku or Gohan (and even Goku, technically. See the head-injury incident) is someone who was bad and then turned good.

"Black Widow, hardly a minor character in the film"

... all she did was wear a tight coverall and pose repeatedly, she contributed to the plot and the action in literally zero ways. Let's run through what her scenes would be were she removed:

Intro scene with mobsters: pointless scene anyway, no one misses it.

Recruiting the Hulk: Banner now figures out he's being hemmed in on his own instead of exposition McGee expositing it. Scene unchanged except for something actually being accomplished in character terms (establishing that Banner's smart)

Interviewing Loki: Everyone already knew Loki's plan was to set off Hulk, the character talked about literally nothing else to anyone on the team since first running into Captain America. Removing the scene removes no content, slightly reduces boredom coefficient for audience.

Being Chased by hulk: hulk's now just ripping the ship up like a badass killing machine instead of following a random puny human for literally no reason whatsoever. Amount of sense the scene makes increased 350%.

Final fight scene: ha, who are we kidding, she essentially wasn't in this anyhow.

Every interaction with Hawkeye: Movie considerably improved by removal, Hawkeye now randomly whips out one-liners and laughs at them himself, banged himself back to sanity by running into a pipe, and is basically an actual character with character traits and stuff instead of a blank slate whedon quip-o-tron 3000 tasked with filler generation and movie-length padding. Also, all his lines are now much funnier with no one replying.

... so every removal either makes no difference or represents a substantial improvement in the quality of the narrative. Huh.

(Hawkeye... they actually managed to make slightly non-useless, somehow, mostly by doing the brainwashing thing, though they dropped the ball on that by it having no repercussions whatsoever in any way. Honestly, even though he had an actual plot thing going on where BW did not his plot thread still didn't go anywhere so they shoulda cut him too.)

It's not as bad as transformers back in 86. Arcee was a major characters in the film and the 3rd season, and never got a toy till many years later. Usually toy lines manage to sneak in one or two girls. Like visionaries made 2 females, both water creatures, so they were pitted against each other. My sister wanted to get a spider girl toy from super hero squad for my Niece/god daughter since she had the toys from my nephew to pass down, but spider girl was only sold with a vehicle. It ended up becoming too rare and worth too much money later because of that to justify buying.

I started watching Teen titans with my niece because as a series where both genders get fairly represented for most part. I think her favorite character is probably still beast boy since he's funny, but she loves it.(her older siblings usually stop and watch when I put it on for her. It is still a really good show.) She still loves the avengers, but I wanted to expand her horizons of the geek world.It's a job for a godfather hehe..(and as an uncle for all nieces and nephews.) Offset her sports nuts father.

seydaman:
Hm. Fair point, none of the siblings I live with engage in such toys anymore, so I'm rather in the dark, but it seems to me there's no reason to not move to a general 50/50 gender split in toys. Although not in the realm of toys, Avatar (The Last Airbender), while still a childrens show, had damn near a hard 50/50 split on gender, and every kid I know seems to adore the show, seeming to imply that there's not even a loss in money either.

Kids, in general, don't really care what gender characters are as long as they are awesome.

OT: A fair point. Fairer point: Black Widow is currently the only female Avenger. Isn't the whole exercise stilted from the get-go?

Maybe teach her that life is almost always unfair, but that she should strive to make the world a better place, become a CEO of a toy company and change that or become a role model for women everywhere or a comic book writer or anything freakin' else, instead of all that, her parents teach her how to make video rants and the internet promptly responds by spreading it around. YAY, PEOPLE!

As someone who works for one of the largest toy store chains in the UK, i can confidently say the Black widow figure is extremely rare, we have been selling the merchandise now for just over a year and only recently have we received the figured linked on Amazon and in limited quantity,

Hawkeye (who also isn't on the majority of the merchandising) has been in stock fairly consistently (about the same as Loki) along with his bow.

Also she isn't available in the larger figure series which is objectively better and only reserved for Ironman, The Hulk, Thor and Captain America.

Girls tastes are changing the majority hate Barbie these days. We sell way more Monster High in comparison and both boys and girls have been requesting the figure in question to complete there avengers sets.

Zachary Amaranth:

If anyone should be pissed about inequality in toys it's the giant green rage monsters.

Why do you think he hasn't turned back into Banner?

This made me chuckle, so I shall re-post it for all. Thank you.

Zachary Amaranth:

Daria.Morgendorffer:
Ah, yes, Joss Whedon lamenting the poor, downtrodden women.
Joss Whedon can bite me for his fucking crocodile tears for women.

It's the public's fault for taking him and raising him up as some sort of supa feminist icon.

He's very good at writing team dynamics, but otherwise he's nothing particularly special.

Zachary Amaranth:

Terramax:

Companies like to stereotype. But they like to make money more.

Companies like to play conservative and are not always welcoming of new ideas. The fact that developers need to fight to just to get female focus group reps should indicate something's wrong here.

Companies will almost always use old ideas until they make negative money before attempting new ideas. It's part of the reason the U.S. has such absurd copyright laws: Companies just want to use the same properties and ideas forever. If you want something new you basically have to have a new company do it or legally end their ability to do what they've been doing.

Awh, sound like she should start a petition/ kickstarter to make Black Widow into a proper toy.

Still this isn't the first time that companies think action figure should be male characters figure only (I looking at you Mattel Avatar: The Last Airbender toys)!

They should just roll Pym and Janette into one character and add Wasp as a female power house to the line up (scarlet witch might be important in avenger's 2, but her power set doesn't really promise a prominent role in fights).

So a toy is only female friendly if it's of a female? What's wrong with the male toys?

Oh, would you just look at that. Isn't that just the gosh-darned cutest thing whenever an adult teaches their children to regurgitate a political agenda on command, and then posts a video of it on the internet?

Kamille Bidan:

RJ 17:
To be fair, I do get where you're coming from, but my comparison was really on a general level. Vegeta was a bad guy that turns good, just like Hawkeye. Granted, Hawkeye was a good guy before he became a bad guy that became a good guy again, still, that's what my comparison was based on.

Beyond that, Hawkeye was far more useful than Tien and/or Yamacha could ever hope to be. :P

Let's be honest. Pretty much every DBZ character that wasn't Goku or Gohan (and even Goku, technically. See the head-injury incident) is someone who was bad and then turned good.

In the words of Piccolo from DBZ Kai Abridged: "Nobody watched Dragon Ball." :P

Wait, Black Widow was in the Avengers?
I was too busy focusing on Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, The Hulk and Nick Fury to notice.

Charli:

Saltyk:
I remember growing up, I would avoid the girl's toy section at all costs. All that pink couldn't be healthy for a boy, right?

I avoided that section too...and it was supposed to be FOR me. Honestly it IS kinda sad. I used to collect power rangers, transformers and have them ride my little ponies. I was all inclusive baby.

Some variance of colour wouldn't go amiss, and the idea that 'girls are attracted to pink or pastel' is only as ingrained as society believes that 'that's the way it is'.

Girls are attracted to all sorts of colours, it's just that pink has been delegated to girls and boys are made to feel as though they must avoid it (for some *cough* asinine reason)...

Waste of a good colour. And honestly I'm not it's biggest fan either but... still.

Ah, yes. I still HATE pink, because as a little girl I was told that I like it.
When I told people that I like blue, I was told 'No you don't'.

Because the kindergarten teachers knew apparently better what I liked than I did.
Luckily my mom let me have blue clothes.

I always got Barbies and toys like that as birthday -presents, even after I told people I didn't want them.
I specifically asked for 'monster-toys' when I was 7, and I got this super-cute dinosaur-thing from my friend.
And this comment from her father :"My daughter told me you wanted monster-toys, but I didn't believe her. She insisted, and eventually we found this dinosaur that suitable for a girl."

At that moment I realized gender-roles were shit.

Hosker:
So a toy is only female friendly if it's of a female? What's wrong with the male toys?

What's wrong with female toys? Why can't boys play with female characters?
The issue is not that a girl can't play with a male superhero-toy, it's that female superheroes are underrepresented.

As a little girl I played with both male and female toys, but my most badass characters (A tyrannosaurus and a dragon that were only women because I decided so)were female, because I guess I identified with them the most.
Also since there were less cool female characters, I suppose I had to make up for it by creating my own.

Also I decided Leonardo from Teenage mutant ninja turtles was a girl.

I actually agree in part with the kid, for one reason: see my avatar? It's of Quorra, from Tron Legacy, as portrayed by Olivia Wilde. Now during the release of Tron Legacy, they made a bunch of figures of the characters, her included. Unfortunately, there is only one figure in the entire line that portrays her, and it commits a rather grievous crime: it does not portray her face. The figure is only available with a helmeted head, and because of that people have had to kit-bash figures to give her a proper face, with various degrees of success.

Why doe that piss me off? Well, anyone that has seen Tron Legacy knows that Quorra is considered one of the lead characters. The other leads got Helmeted and helmetless sculpts, while she is the only lead character produced without a proper face sculpt, even though she spends the majority of the film helmetless. Why? probably because marketing.

an annoyed writer:
I actually agree in part with the kid, for one reason: see my avatar? It's of Quorra, from Tron Legacy, as portrayed by Olivia Wilde. Now during the release of Tron Legacy, they made a bunch of figures of the characters, her included. Unfortunately, there is only one figure in the entire line that portrays her, and it commits a rather grievous crime: it does not portray her face. The figure is only available with a helmeted head, and because of that people have had to kit-bash figures to give her a proper face, with various degrees of success.

Why doe that piss me off? Well, anyone that has seen Tron Legacy knows that Quorra is considered one of the lead characters. The other leads got Helmeted and helmetless sculpts, while she is the only lead character produced without a proper face sculpt, even though she spends the majority of the film helmetless. Why? probably because marketing.

To be fair: Maybe they didn't get the actress' approval for the face sculpt, or they didn't want to deal with the approval process. Christian Bale's "John Connor" figure is covered up with goggles and a face mask.

Still bull though.

Action figures are the toys that let kids play with their favorite characters, and it sucks that girls (and some of the characters they like) get shafted.

There is a Black Widow toys, but its in short supply.

Batman and Bane get dozens of cheaper figures, but Catwoman is limited to the adult collections, pricing her out of what parents would pay for a little kid.

Female Yellow/Blue Rangers are hard to find, and Pink is even rarer.

And yes, I'm still sore Sari Sumdac never got a figure.

Aww, that's sad, the parents don't let their kids browse amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Select-Exclusive-Action-Figure/dp/B005OZOF52

That's the first action figure I found with a very basic google search.

Now, what wouldn't be fair would be to force stores with limited shelf space to carry a product that is less popular than any of the other products that could fit in that space. Capitalism, yo.

Regarding the pink ranger comment, amazon to the rescue! http://www.amazon.com/Power-Ranger-Samurai-Action-Figure/dp/B004H0MBPQ

This whole thread could have stopped at: "Six-year-old upset"

Aside from the toy issues, as characters one of the main things I like about Hawkeye and Black Window is their ability to reasonably hold their own despite more or less being regular people. They just have to compensate for the lack of powers with a lot of skill and teamwork.

Lightknight:
Aww, that's sad, the parents don't let their kids browse amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Select-Exclusive-Action-Figure/dp/B005OZOF52

That's the first action figure I found with a very basic google search.

Now, what wouldn't be fair would be to force stores with limited shelf space to carry a product that is less popular than any of the other products that could fit in that space. Capitalism, yo.

Regarding the pink ranger comment, amazon to the rescue! http://www.amazon.com/Power-Ranger-Samurai-Action-Figure/dp/B004H0MBPQ

This whole thread could have stopped at: "Six-year-old upset"

Thank for proving my point twice over. Did you look at the prices? Its bad enough that women are in short supply on the shelves, but you have to deal with the secondary market and their mark-ups!

Capta: comfort zone

Maybe if marketers got out of their comfort zone, we wouldn't have to deal with that.

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