Batman and Superman "Facing Off" in Man of Steel Sequel

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Urg, I think this is bad. I mean, for all of Moviebob's bitching over how much darker Man of Steel was, it was still a hell of a lot lighter in tone then The Dark Knight. I can't imagine making a movie like this without forcing one of the two to snap into a different atmosphere.

Not to mention I think that the Batman vs Superman argument is stupid as fuck. Not only would logically neither of the two want to actually fight each other, but Superman would win. I mean I prefer Batman as a character, but everybody knows Superman would win without magical ass-pulled kryptonite.

Alluos:
Just hoping that Batman doesn't steal the show completely.
Supposedly it's based on The Dark Knight Returns, but I'm hoping it only draws inspiration from it, I'd hate for a Superman movie to suffer from the infamous bat-fad...

Even if he isn't written to steal the show, batfans will make sure the batfad continues.

MeChaNiZ3D:
Spoiler: Superman wins.

(Honestly, if the film shows anything other than a complete non-contest when these two fight, it's kidding itself. Batman's great, and I don't like Superman that much, but superstrength + laser eyes + flying > martial arts + body armour + bat-themed vehicles).

You forgot about Batman's number one super power:

His ability to magically scale to any power level and still somehow be considered human.

Adam Jensen:
They are gonna screw this up royally. The biggest reason why The Avengers universe was so well translated to the big screen is because Marvel and Disney had a long-term plan for the franchise. They knew what they wanted.

To be fair, DC has wanted a Justice League movie almost as long. I'm sure they had a plan, it just seemed to fall apart. The problem here is poor execution more than anything else.

Zachary Amaranth:

Alluos:
Just hoping that Batman doesn't steal the show completely.
Supposedly it's based on The Dark Knight Returns, but I'm hoping it only draws inspiration from it, I'd hate for a Superman movie to suffer from the infamous bat-fad...

Even if he isn't written to steal the show, batfans will make sure the batfad continues.

MeChaNiZ3D:
Spoiler: Superman wins.

(Honestly, if the film shows anything other than a complete non-contest when these two fight, it's kidding itself. Batman's great, and I don't like Superman that much, but superstrength + laser eyes + flying > martial arts + body armour + bat-themed vehicles).

You forgot about Batman's number one super power:

His ability to magically scale to any power level and still somehow be considered human.

Batman can beat Superman, or at least keep up with him. I agree, there are plenty of stories that are painfully outlandish and take it too far, but still; Batman has a supply of Kryptonite, multiple back up plans with safeguards put in place already and he's an intelligent man with a heck of a lot of training. A fight between these two could be close and could have Batman as the winner. But this film will most likely go more towards the stupid and impossible, as opposed the the sensible, though so my point is kind moot. Just defending the Bat... Because clearly, I'm a fan.

Zachary Amaranth:

Alluos:
Just hoping that Batman doesn't steal the show completely.
Supposedly it's based on The Dark Knight Returns, but I'm hoping it only draws inspiration from it, I'd hate for a Superman movie to suffer from the infamous bat-fad...

Even if he isn't written to steal the show, batfans will make sure the batfad continues.

MeChaNiZ3D:
Spoiler: Superman wins.

(Honestly, if the film shows anything other than a complete non-contest when these two fight, it's kidding itself. Batman's great, and I don't like Superman that much, but superstrength + laser eyes + flying > martial arts + body armour + bat-themed vehicles).

You forgot about Batman's number one super power:

His ability to magically scale to any power level and still somehow be considered human.

Adam Jensen:
They are gonna screw this up royally. The biggest reason why The Avengers universe was so well translated to the big screen is because Marvel and Disney had a long-term plan for the franchise. They knew what they wanted.

To be fair, DC has wanted a Justice League movie almost as long. I'm sure they had a plan, it just seemed to fall apart. The problem here is poor execution more than anything else.

I've always loved how Batman can be punched through concrete by a superhuman and then stand back up while the fans proclaim "He's relatable because he's a normal human." You did forget about Batman's other superpower though. "Bullshit plot armour and deus ex fan-wank".

Batman's awesome, in the Batman universe. I mean Superman's a genius, Wonder Woman is a warrior who has led armies, Martian Manhunter is kind of a "guider" if not a leader. There's really no good reason to have Batman in the Justice League other than the big kids let him play because he can buy them nice things. Even the human element isn't necessary because you have Flash and Green Lantern.

Phrozenflame500:
Urg, I think this is bad. I mean, for all of Moviebob's bitching over how much darker Man of Steel was, it was still a hell of a lot lighter in tone then The Dark Knight. I can't imagine making a movie like this without forcing one of the two to snap into a different atmosphere.

Not to mention I think that the Batman vs Superman argument is stupid as fuck. Not only would logically neither of the two want to actually fight each other, but Superman would win. I mean I prefer Batman as a character, but everybody knows Superman would win without magical ass-pulled kryptonite.

Summed up my feelings perfectly. I would have rather had another good man of steel movie than see them try and force JL as soon as they can. This movie will basically be their testing ground to see if they can get away with rushing JL.

I hate saying this but I hope this idea bombs. If superman was brought on board after batman begins, you bet your ass people would be like wtf.

ninjaRiv:

Zachary Amaranth:

Alluos:
Just hoping that Batman doesn't steal the show completely.
Supposedly it's based on The Dark Knight Returns, but I'm hoping it only draws inspiration from it, I'd hate for a Superman movie to suffer from the infamous bat-fad...

Even if he isn't written to steal the show, batfans will make sure the batfad continues.

MeChaNiZ3D:
Spoiler: Superman wins.

(Honestly, if the film shows anything other than a complete non-contest when these two fight, it's kidding itself. Batman's great, and I don't like Superman that much, but superstrength + laser eyes + flying > martial arts + body armour + bat-themed vehicles).

You forgot about Batman's number one super power:

His ability to magically scale to any power level and still somehow be considered human.

Batman can beat Superman, or at least keep up with him. I agree, there are plenty of stories that are painfully outlandish and take it too far, but still; Batman has a supply of Kryptonite, multiple back up plans with safeguards put in place already and he's an intelligent man with a heck of a lot of training. A fight between these two could be close and could have Batman as the winner. But this film will most likely go more towards the stupid and impossible, as opposed the the sensible, though so my point is kind moot. Just defending the Bat... Because clearly, I'm a fan.

Superman can break the sound barrier (at least), punch people into the sun, hit people from a distance with heat vision and ice breath. It doesn't matter how clever you are, if you're facing a guy with Superman's level of power who can close a distance of miles between you faster than you can blink then no, no plan will help. Again Batman's awesome and if Superman wasn't that powerful yeah he could. I mean if someone at Wonder Woman or Aquaman's level had a super "off switch" like Superman then yeah Batman could probably beat them, but not Superman.

Spot1990:
Batman can beat Superman, or at least keep up with him. I agree, there are plenty of stories that are painfully outlandish and take it too far, but still; Batman has a supply of Kryptonite, multiple back up plans with safeguards put in place already and he's an intelligent man with a heck of a lot of training. A fight between these two could be close and could have Batman as the winner. But this film will most likely go more towards the stupid and impossible, as opposed the the sensible, though so my point is kind moot. Just defending the Bat... Because clearly, I'm a fan.

Superman can break the sound barrier (at least), punch people into the sun, hit people from a distance with heat vision and ice breath. It doesn't matter how clever you are, if you're facing a guy with Superman's level of power who can close a distance of miles between you faster than you can blink then no, no plan will help. Again Batman's awesome and if Superman wasn't that powerful yeah he could. I mean if someone at Wonder Woman or Aquaman's level had a super "off switch" like Superman then yeah Batman could probably beat them, but not Superman.[/quote]

I don't wont to go into "vs thread" territory here, because fuck those things, but it depends on how much "prep time" Batman has had. He's got infinite money and high intelligence so, if he was going for Superman, he could do it. In a straight up fight out of the blue with no prep time (I dunno, I discussion about how ugly Ma Kent is gets out of hand) then it depends on how much time Superman gives batman to whip out the kryptonite. Like if Superman gives him a warning first. But if Superman suddenly goes full evil, there's no chance (since there'd be no warning or hesitation).

But if Batman was gunning for Superman, yeah he'd have a good chance.

See, they really should have scaled back Superman's abilities because i have to ask what could Batman possibly add to the MoS's Superman?

Red X:
See, they really should have scaled back Superman's abilities because i have to ask what could Batman possibly add to the MoS's Superman?

I expect the film will be "Batman and Superman fight to sort out their differences but unite against a common enemy" (perhaps Lex Luthor, Batman works for Luthor first maybe?) like in The Avengers.

MeChaNiZ3D:
Spoiler: Superman wins.

(Honestly, if the film shows anything other than a complete non-contest when these two fight, it's kidding itself. Batman's great, and I don't like Superman that much, but superstrength + laser eyes + flying > martial arts + body armour + bat-themed vehicles).

In DC lore, Batman has a Kryptonite ring as a contingency measure for if Superman ever goes apeshit. Likely he'll end up grabbing that for the inevitable confrontation.

As long as I get to see Batman kicking Superman's ass, this may be a Superman movie I actually would pay to see.

I know that Warner Bros. basically feel obligated to include Christopher Nolan and David Goyer since every superhero movie they touch miraculously turns into money, but they should really just let them go and bring on someone that actually WANTS to be making superhero movies at this point.

Man of Steel was seriously a mess. For me it wasn't even the dark tones or the fact that Superman kills a guy, it's that they walked all over and then spit on the "show don't tell" rule, then threw in some weak logic and story structure to boot.

They keep going on and on about how Supes is afraid to reveal himself to the world and how he has to restrain himself, but he's never shown to have any trouble with either of those. He just does it anyway, then goes full force beating up Zod not holding back at all. The whole idea of "people aren't ready for Superman" gets about 5 minutes of screen time. Hell not even that. The army guy says to open fire on Superman, they do, he flies off, 5 minutes later he saves one of them and then it's all over. There's no emotional payoff, barely even anything added to the plot. The whole concept could have just been ignored and the movie wouldn't be much different.

That's not even mentioning the utterly botched relationship between Clark and Lois. Do I even need to explain this one? Even the most oblivious audience could tell there was no chemistry between them. They just happen to be in the same places at the same time, and then inexplicably end up kissing. And don't even get me started on why they took Lois on board the Kryptonian ship in the first place.

Obligatory:

image

Spot1990:

Also, the quote to promote it was from Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns, which is godawful.

...erm, what?

The Dark Knight Returns is along with Watchmen the most critically acclaimed, influential superhero comic ever. The entire comic was a revolution for the industry. Not just in its recasting of Batman, or its framing of superhero antics against real-world Cold War politics (something that films are still riffing on even to this day, such as First Class), but in the way Frank Miller pioneered new ways for colour to be used in comic books (having fades between different shades, rather than solid blocks of colour) or the way he used visual framing devices never seen before in the medium. Even the narration was new, using a stream-of-consciousness post-modern style to really hammer home the idea of thoughts running through Batman's head.

You may not have to like Miller or what he's turned into now, but at least show some respect for the classics. TDKR is, outside Watchmen, one of the single most important things to happen to superhero comics.

Because WB is stupid and doesn't know how to make a DC film without Batman and/or childish angst. Because we can't just have a fun and upbeat Superman movie! No, everything needs to be dark and moody to convince idiots that what they're watching is intelligent when in reality it's far dumber than an upbeat film could ever be. Everything needs to be grim and gritty, because Superman using his awesome powers in a 'happier' film is dumb and childish.

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:
Obligatory:

image

Spot1990:

Also, the quote to promote it was from Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns, which is godawful.

...erm, what?

The Dark Knight Returns is along with Watchmen the most critically acclaimed, influential superhero comic ever. The entire comic was a revolution for the industry. Not just in its recasting of Batman, or its framing of superhero antics against real-world Cold War politics (something that films are still riffing on even to this day, such as First Class), but in the way Frank Miller pioneered new ways for colour to be used in comic books (having fades between different shades, rather than solid blocks of colour) or the way he used visual framing devices never seen before in the medium. Even the narration was new, using a stream-of-consciousness post-modern style to really hammer home the idea of thoughts running through Batman's head.

You may not have to like Miller or what he's turned into now, but at least show some respect for the classics. TDKR is, outside Watchmen, one of the single most important things to happen to superhero comics.

I meant godawful in it's representation of Superman. And the showdown between them being silly.

..Okay. So. Kinda...disappointing. Mostly because all the DC movies are being made by the same few people, and those people seem to lack the ability to write a proper script.

Now, a Zack Snyder-directed movie, written by Scott Snyder? Now that I would pay some serious money to see.

uuugh. really? just.....really? This is just...ok, this is just excessive and money grubbing. Batman as the antagonist against Superman who now just kills his foes like moviebob stated? Superman with no moral setbacks against a normal human with loads of spoiled brat money and there's been NO creative plot hooks or traces to kryptonite:

You're a danger to humanity and are bat-poo crazy Bruce. Come peace-fully.

I have bad guys

My bad guys are worse *takes out batman with 'maybe a minor unimaginative drawback' and all his bad guys*

Gotham is saved. Yay!

Happy supper-hero team is made somehow in another movie.

PS:
Also those two aren't the greatest heroes. They just happen to be two of the most iconic.

also, check this out "What if superman punched you" from vsauce. fun times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-fL8zopddI

Spot1990:
I meant godawful in it's representation of Superman. And the showdown between them being silly.

It's fine if you think this is what he let himself become rather than who he is. Many of the characters where are shadows of there former selves Batman for Plot purposes just happened to get pissed enough. :P

At best, I can see Lex being the villain spinning Supermans destruction of Metropolis and managing to con Batman into going after Superman, but then they figure out whats going on and team up.

The quote they used sounds terribly like they're going to go the boring VS route. Which is a good way to kill one or both characters potential momentum in the bud. Even the Hulk/Thor battle in Avengers (which was a nod to the original comic, granted) came off as the low point of the movie.

Seth Carter:
[...]Even the Hulk/Thor battle in Avengers (which was a nod to the original comic, granted) came off as the low point of the movie.

Well, It had a bit more value then "Lets you and him fight!".

In that case, it was part of Loki's plan to disable SHIELD and the Avengers long enough to conquer the earth.
I don't mind such "Vs." Scenes in movies, provided they are worked in on merits other than "Who Would win?" and actually contribute to the plot like that.

wait, didn't supes, like kill zod hereby getting rid of the only trait that bruce could exploit at every story event that happened so far? Superman doesnt kill. With that one out i call batman getting heat visioned to death at minute 2 of the battle. thusly laying finally to rest the whole argument.

Credossuck:
wait, didn't supes, like kill zod hereby getting rid of the only trait that bruce could exploit at every story event that happened so far? Superman doesnt kill. With that one out i call batman getting heat visioned to death at minute 2 of the battle. thusly laying finally to rest the whole argument.

I don't get this whole "Superman loves killing because he killed Zod" thing that people seem to be on since MoS. Superman avoided killing Zod for as long as he possibly could until he had no other choice. Just because Superman killed ONCE after doing everything possible to avoid doing so doesn't mean he's now an Ax-Crazy psychopath. Besides, they never established that Superman had a problem with killing MoS to begin with.

In fact, I don't get why Superman killing is such a sore spot with so many people. The only reasons Superman wasn't killing his villains left and right from the very start of his existence was because:
1. Then they have to come up with a new villain EVERY issue.
2. The Comics Code was in effect, which meant that killing was a big no no, so Superman didn't.

However, The Comics Code has been dead for about 3 decades now, and the idea that heroes can't kill villains no matter how mindnumbingly it is not to has pretty much vanished with it.

I just realized something:
In the movie I Am Legend, the end of humanity came just as the Batman/Superman movie was released.

OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
image

Captcha: enjoy life
Damn right, I only have 2 years left.

That's what the world needed. More superhero movies. Don't forget to make it ultra dark!

Are they going to be competing for most "gritty, depressing, and real" character?

Either way, superman just needs 5 seconds and a neck-snap and that's all she wrote.

StewShearer:
The new film will be helmed by Man of Steel director Zack Snyder with Christopher Nolan again on as executive producer and David Goyer returning to pen the script.

Is that so? Then I am expecting more of the same soulless stupid action shit that was Man of Steel.

ninjaRiv:

Batman can beat Superman, or at least keep up with him. I agree, there are plenty of stories that are painfully outlandish and take it too far, but still; Batman has a supply of Kryptonite, multiple back up plans with safeguards put in place already and he's an intelligent man with a heck of a lot of training. A fight between these two could be close and could have Batman as the winner. But this film will most likely go more towards the stupid and impossible, as opposed the the sensible, though so my point is kind moot. Just defending the Bat... Because clearly, I'm a fan.

The idea of the Batman from the films holding his own against Superman is ridiculous. And he really hasn't held his own in the comics, usually the best he does is when Superman's feeling charitable. That and Batman scales with the threat, making both the Joker AND veritable Gods equal threats. that's the sort of thing that gets played for laughs when Squirrel Girl wins fights, but in Batman, it's SOP.

Spot1990:
I've always loved how Batman can be punched through concrete by a superhuman and then stand back up while the fans proclaim "He's relatable because he's a normal human." You did forget about Batman's other superpower though. "Bullshit plot armour and deus ex fan-wank".

Bat-Plot-Armour and Bat-Fan-Wank are both extensions of his primary power. He scales because he's the embodiment of a Chuck Norris joke gone wild.

Batman's awesome, in the Batman universe. I mean Superman's a genius, Wonder Woman is a warrior who has led armies, Martian Manhunter is kind of a "guider" if not a leader. There's really no good reason to have Batman in the Justice League other than the big kids let him play because he can buy them nice things. Even the human element isn't necessary because you have Flash and Green Lantern.

Batman is there because "wouldn't it be cool if we had all the best characters there?" And that's the source of the lazy writing that surrounds Batman. They need to justify his place there by making him useful somehow.

At first this is quite a good idea, as a stepping stone to a Justice League movie
Have the heroes join up over the course of several movies instead of just one (Especially since the Justice League does not have something like S.H.I.E.L.D. to gather them systematically) with the two big ones getting their own movie

Also the first thing that comes to mind is the animated Worlds Finest (The 97 Dini one)who is quite a good take on how and why the two heroes would react to each other

Then I hear them quoting Millers batwank of a comic and my enthusiasm slips a bit
Then I hear that they let Nolan produce I can no longer muster anything other than a resounding "MEH"
At least the will be finding a new Batman to replace Bale

But how to threaten the man of steel? Well let's see
1)There have been no hits of Kryptonite yet (But that does not mean that it can't be introduced)
2) Since Nolan is involved we can probably rule out magic
3) Red sunlight is still a factor, and have been made into a weapon in both the comic and the animated universe
4) Match him in strength (There's plenty to choose from even non-kryptonian)
5) Other ways to bypass his invulnerability (Personally I remember; sonic, electric, light and neural based weapons used on him to great effect)

None of these even have to be individuals, the green lantern movie already hinted at project Cadmus, who have the most advanced weaponry in the world (And without seeing the movie, I am guessing that after the man of steel movie they probably have some Kryptonian ones too)
Or Intergang the hightech terrorists with alien weapons, which could also hint at the sequel where they need the whole Justice league.

Both are probably too big for this movie but the idea is the same, as long as the mooks can hurt him their numbers and the fact that they are extendible make more than enough tension for you to not need anyone as powerful as Superman.
(Could "just" be Luthor arming some mooks with hitech weapons capable of hurting superman, maybe Metallo , who even without his Kryptonite heart is more than capable of trading blows with supes, for the big finale)

Spacefrog:

But how to threaten the man of steel? Well let's see
1)There have been no hits of Kryptonite yet (But that does not mean that it can't be introduced)
2) Since Nolan is involved we can probably rule out magic
3) Red sunlight is still a factor, and have been made into a weapon in both the comic and the animated universe
4) Match him in strength (There's plenty to choose from even non-kryptonian)
5) Other ways to bypass his invulnerability (Personally I remember; sonic, electric, light and neural based weapons used on him to great effect)

Too bad concussive blasts are ruled out because of the film, Light based weapons are off though because even heat vision doesn't affect him which against Kryptonians only have a Cyclops like effect on each other (anyone else t burns)

Adam Jensen:
They are gonna screw this up royally. The biggest reason why The Avengers universe was so well translated to the big screen is because Marvel and Disney had a long-term plan for the franchise. They knew what they wanted.

I'm totally with you on this one.

Marvel made a movie for each superhero, leading up to the big movie. The earliest sign of The Avengers being a possibility was at the end of The Incredible Hulk (2008). Dr. Bruce Banner is in a bar and suddenly, Tony Stark comes up offering him a position of a team being assembled (I could be wrong, anyone can correct me on this if otherwise.)

The Avengers movie came out in 2012. So around 4-5 years, they planned this. Each character like Captain America, Iron Man, so forth... had their own movie so that there wouldn't be any reason for them to suddenly just be there when the big movie hit. Imagine if we never got movies about the individual heroes and out of the blue, The Avengers came out. It may of not done so well or even flunked if that was the case.

I know that Batman has three movies of his own now, and Superman just had his latest one but... it's still not enough. Warner Brothers should be patient and see how their movie can work out. Because seriously, they're already planning a Justice League movie in 2017?

Hmmm ... I don't know what to think. Man of Steel didn't even interest me enough to go see it so... I don't know. Then again my favorite movie is The Dark Knight so i'll have to check out the trailers for Man of Steal 2 when it comes out. But what concerns me is how they're going to make Batman capable of even being on par with Superman. Superman could easily kill Batman despite I dislike Superman lol.

HardkorSB:
I just realized something:
In the movie I Am Legend, the end of humanity came just as the Batman/Superman movie was released.

OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
image

Captcha: enjoy life
Damn right, I only have 2 years left.

In my generation's version of "I Am Legend"* the world ended while the Woodstock documentary was still playing in theaters.

*The Omega Man

Caramel Frappe:

Marvel made a movie for each superhero, leading up to the big movie. The earliest sign of The Avengers being a possibility was at the end of The Incredible Hulk (2008). Dr. Bruce Banner is in a bar and suddenly, Tony Stark comes up offering him a position of a team being assembled (I could be wrong, anyone can correct me on this if otherwise.)

I believe it was a couple months earlier when Nick Fury showed up post credits in the first Iron Man movie to talk to Tony about the Avengers Initiative.

MeChaNiZ3D:
Spoiler: Superman wins.

(Honestly, if the film shows anything other than a complete non-contest when these two fight, it's kidding itself. Batman's great, and I don't like Superman that much, but superstrength + laser eyes + flying > martial arts + body armour + bat-themed vehicles).

Batman beats up on superman all the time, see The dark knight returns part 2, the Tower of Babel and probably a dozen others based on what I've heard, but it would be bad to have Supes get his ass kicked in his own movie.

Spot1990:

Capitano Segnaposto:
Crap, I was too slow to do an "Inb4 stupid fanboy hate".

Oh well, I enjoyed Man of Steel (seriously, stop whining about Superman killing someone. Who fucking cares, it made it interesting. Which is hard to do with the most boring "main" superhero of all freakin' time) and I am sure I will enjoy this next movie.

Who cares? Em the fans of Superman who don't consider him boring maybe. Him killing wasn't the main problem. The main problem is A) He totally didn't have to and B)Even if he did, he just kind of did it, let out a big "No" and then a jump cut to him dicking around with the military. Superman taking a life should be a big damn deal.

You can call him boring if you want but he's been around for 75 years, has a lot of fans and people who don't consider him boring. So no offense, but why the fuck should they make a Superman movie that appeals to non-fans, fucking with the core of the character when he's a hot enough property to sell as is?

I'll speak for those fans. I've always been a pretty open minded person. You are forgetting a part of the movie my friend. After he killed him he had an emotional break down. He was on his knees hanging on to Lois crying. It was just a big "No". It was a bigger deal then you make it out to be.

For me it actually set some good character beats that could be followed up on in a sequel movie. That is if the movie were a solo movie. Man of Steel 2 to me should be called Man of Tomorrow and should follow his actual rise to being the Superman we all know and love, dealing with his murdering of Zod as well as establishing "The Rule" because of it, and also dealing with the presence of Lex Luthor.

Hitchmeister:

Caramel Frappe:

Marvel made a movie for each superhero, leading up to the big movie. The earliest sign of The Avengers being a possibility was at the end of The Incredible Hulk (2008). Dr. Bruce Banner is in a bar and suddenly, Tony Stark comes up offering him a position of a team being assembled (I could be wrong, anyone can correct me on this if otherwise.)

I believe it was a couple months earlier when Nick Fury showed up post credits in the first Iron Man movie to talk to Tony about the Avengers Initiative.

You're totally right! I just looked it up and that did.. indeed happen. So yeah that further proves my point- that Marvel planned The Avengers even before 2008. And Warner Brothers wants a Superman vs Batman movie in almost 2 years and less. Crap.

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