Batman and Superman "Facing Off" in Man of Steel Sequel

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First off, I do think a "World's Finest" (They'd better call it that in some fashion, BTW) movie could work. It allows there to be a contrast between the characters, and sets up a possibility for a JL movie much better than anything else. It escalates Batman's character to a world-player, because Nolan's Batman was kinda... soft. At least in JL terms. Nolan's batman humanized a superhero, but for a grander-scale, they need to 'Super-ize' a human. The only reason I have concern about this is that despite their unequal methods in solving crime, they're on the same side. Like, they both solve crime, but get in each other's way of doing it. So in the end, they need a real villain that justifies why both of them would be involved, eg. someone that's at Superman's scale, and Batman would even care to be involved with.

Done right, it could be a multi-parter in and of itself. Done wrong, and it kills multiple franchises... WB unfortunately has a track record for the latter.

What I don't like is that when you do the reveal of a movie like this by quoting Dark Knight Returns you show that the creative team is coming into the process with the whole idea Batman = Cool and Awesome and Superman = Stupid and gullable

This is Superman and Batman Both two amazing characters Peers both highly intelligent and emotional people They see each other as the brothers that they never had growing up. Hell back before the reboot Bruce used to see the Kents.

Morrison said it best

In the end, I saw Superman not as a superhero or even a science fiction character, but as a story of Everyman. We're all Superman in our own adventures. We have our own Fortresses of Solitude we retreat to, with our own special collections of valued stuff, our own super-pets, our own "Bottle Cities" that we feel guilty for neglecting. We have our own peers and rivals and bizarre emotional or moral tangles to deal with.

I felt I'd really grasped the concept when I saw him as Everyman, or rather as the dreamself of Everyman. That "S" is the radiant emblem of divinity we reveal when we rip off our stuffy shirts, our social masks, our neuroses, our constructed selves, and become who we truly are.

Batman is obviously much cooler, but that's because he's a very energetic and adolescent fantasy character: a handsome billionaire playboy in black leather with a butler at this beck and call, better cars and gadgetry than James Bond, a horde of fetish femme fatales baying around his heels and no boss. That guy's Superman day and night.

Superman grew up baling hay on a farm. He goes to work, for a boss, in an office. He pines after a hard-working gal. Only when he tears off his shirt does that heroic, ideal inner self come to life. That's actually a much more adult fantasy than the one Batman's peddling but it also makes Superman a little harder to sell. He's much more of a working class superhero, which is why we ended the whole book with the image of a laboring Superman.

He's Everyman operating on a sci-fi Paul Bunyan scale. His worries and emotional problems are the same as ours... except that when he falls out with his girlfriend, the world trembles.

I'm both excited and horrified. On the one hand, it's something we've never seen in live action, but on the other hand, Man of Steel wasn't great, Batman is overexposed and this is incredibly short notice and clearly something they slapped together when they realised they'd never make a Justice League film in time. Heck, it's coming out at the same time as the second Avengers film, that says it all.

Obviously I'll go and watch it, it won't be anything in the middle ground, it'll be a triumph or a train wreck, and I'd like to be proven wrong about it being a potential train wreck.

This is a really good idea. With the whole Nolanverse and Man of Steel not suited for long term continuity I was thinking earlier that there was too much baggage to make a Justice League movie that did the characters justice (especially since some of the big names like Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl are all tricky characters to get across and GL/Wonder Woman have their own baggage issues).

I now know which movie I definitely do not want to see.

I seriously think Warner Bros/DC should get the writers of of the DC animated universe to write their live action movies.

spoonybard.hahs:

Paradoxrifts:

Red X:
That sounds feasible but i doubt it, the fact Superman can stand up to a beam that can terraform an entire plant with what probably is technically concentrated gravity it pretty much they need a really big excuse to convince how any other weapon can hurt him, let alone slow him down (short of red sun light and green rock)

The Superman portrayed in Man Of Steel seems to suffer from some form of super-strength negating asthma. He loses all of his superpowers when he is exposed to the atmosphere of General Zod's ship, but regains them when the AI of his father fiddles with the ship's life support functions. It stands to reason that this version of Superman might prove vulnerable to attacks that alter his surrounding environment, such as chemical, biological or nuclear weapons of mass destruction.

There is every possibility that although the initial nuclear strike might not kill the Man Of Steel, the resulting fallout might leave him choking to death on his knees amidst the radioactive ashes.

It's not asthma. It's established early in the film that earth's atmosphere - from it's chemical composition to it's gravity - is what gives kryptonians their powers. While the atmosphere on Krypton nullifies them. Conversely, kryptonian atmosphere is deadly to humans, which is why Lois had to wear the helmet on the ship.

But nothing else? It would stand to reason that if she can't breath in the air, skin contact would have a negative effect as well. There's also the fact that Krypton's gravity is heavier than earth's... So why doesn't she react to that when she gets on the ship after it's pressurized?

Major plot hole. The kryptonians use spaceships for interstellar travel and surveying that are pressurized with their atmosphere. Why? So they could all die from an explosion in a fire fight? Or a crash (like the MacGuffin ship buried in the arctic)? And if Zod is such a great military genius, why didn't he dispatch all of his troops to the ground so they could get acclimated to the atmosphere so ALL of them could team up on Superman!? Therefore, why bother terraforming the planet at all? If you're all basically gods on earth, I think that would be preferable to being a bunch of limp-wristed pansies. You can say all you want that Zod wants Krypton back, but he wanted HIS Krypton - the one that was a mighty empire that didn't bend to weak-willed aristocrats. Oh, the babies might die in an earth atmosphere? They would have to be birthed on the MacGuffin ship any way.

Sorry, I'll turn off my rant now.

There are several important facts that you might want to reconsider.

1) The atmosphere of General Zod's prison ship disables the superpowers of Kryptonians who have been raised offworld on foreign alien planets like Earth. Only Clark seems to be adversely affected. It is entirely possible that this is because he was naturally conceived, but it also might be because he is descendant of the house of El and of the scientific caste, while his captors are presumably representatives of various houses of the soldier caste. The soldier caste therefore might not be soldiers at all. They might turn out to be jailors.

2) The ancient Kryptonian colony ship that Superman unearths from underneath the Canadian ice was fully-operational when Superman arrived on the scene. The atmosphere of that ship never gave Clark any troubles at all, even before he downloaded his father's ghost AI into the ship's computer. As the ship itself is undamaged and quite capable of travel, then internal strife was likely the cause of the death of the original crew of Kryptonian astronauts.

3) General Zod traveled amongst the abandoned colonies of Krypton's ancient stellar civilisation. There he found nothing but death and destruction. He also found the world engine, which the movie eventually reveals to be a siege engine designed and built on a planetary scale. It succeeds in fending off Superman. It literally kicks his ass. Until he discovers a fatal flaw in the design and punches through it's chassis as if it were wet tissue paper. But that isn't a design flaw if the original creators had intended for the World Engine to be fielded alongside and as part of a planetary invasion force. It's quite clear to me that the World Engine was designed to pacify and then destroy Krypton's own wayward colonies as part of an ancient civil war. It is not simply a terraforming device. It is a weapon of mass destruction. It was created by a technologically-superior home world to murder entire worlds of super-powered colonists if they dared to raise a rebel flag, or otherwise stop the flow of raw materials to a resource hungry Krypton.

There you go. Happy? :P

Hopefully it's better than the first movie. I actually fell asleep while watching Man of Steel

Paradoxrifts:

spoonybard.hahs:

Paradoxrifts:

The Superman portrayed in Man Of Steel seems to suffer from some form of super-strength negating asthma. He loses all of his superpowers when he is exposed to the atmosphere of General Zod's ship, but regains them when the AI of his father fiddles with the ship's life support functions. It stands to reason that this version of Superman might prove vulnerable to attacks that alter his surrounding environment, such as chemical, biological or nuclear weapons of mass destruction.

There is every possibility that although the initial nuclear strike might not kill the Man Of Steel, the resulting fallout might leave him choking to death on his knees amidst the radioactive ashes.

It's not asthma. It's established early in the film that earth's atmosphere - from it's chemical composition to it's gravity - is what gives kryptonians their powers. While the atmosphere on Krypton nullifies them. Conversely, kryptonian atmosphere is deadly to humans, which is why Lois had to wear the helmet on the ship.

But nothing else? It would stand to reason that if she can't breath in the air, skin contact would have a negative effect as well. There's also the fact that Krypton's gravity is heavier than earth's... So why doesn't she react to that when she gets on the ship after it's pressurized?

Major plot hole. The kryptonians use spaceships for interstellar travel and surveying that are pressurized with their atmosphere. Why? So they could all die from an explosion in a fire fight? Or a crash (like the MacGuffin ship buried in the arctic)? And if Zod is such a great military genius, why didn't he dispatch all of his troops to the ground so they could get acclimated to the atmosphere so ALL of them could team up on Superman!? Therefore, why bother terraforming the planet at all? If you're all basically gods on earth, I think that would be preferable to being a bunch of limp-wristed pansies. You can say all you want that Zod wants Krypton back, but he wanted HIS Krypton - the one that was a mighty empire that didn't bend to weak-willed aristocrats. Oh, the babies might die in an earth atmosphere? They would have to be birthed on the MacGuffin ship any way.

Sorry, I'll turn off my rant now.

There are several important facts that you might want to reconsider.

1) The atmosphere of General Zod's prison ship disables the superpowers of Kryptonians who have been raised offworld on foreign alien planets like Earth. Only Clark seems to be adversely affected. It is entirely possible that this is because he was naturally conceived, but it also might be because he is descendant of the house of El and of the scientific caste, while his captors are presumably representatives of various houses of the soldier caste. The soldier caste therefore might not be soldiers at all. They might turn out to be jailors.

2) The ancient Kryptonian colony ship that Superman unearths from underneath the Canadian ice was fully-operational when Superman arrived on the scene. The atmosphere of that ship never gave Clark any troubles at all, even before he downloaded his father's ghost AI into the ship's computer. As the ship itself is undamaged and quite capable of travel, then internal strife was likely the cause of the death of the original crew of Kryptonian astronauts.

3) General Zod traveled amongst the abandoned colonies of Krypton's ancient stellar civilisation. There he found nothing but death and destruction. He also found the world engine, which the movie eventually reveals to be a siege engine designed and built on a planetary scale. It succeeds in fending off Superman. It literally kicks his ass. Until he discovers a fatal flaw in the design and punches through it's chassis as if it were wet tissue paper. But that isn't a design flaw if the original creators had intended for the World Engine to be fielded alongside and as part of a planetary invasion force. It's quite clear to me that the World Engine was designed to pacify and then destroy Krypton's own wayward colonies as part of an ancient civil war. It is not simply a terraforming device. It is a weapon of mass destruction. It was created by a technologically-superior home world to murder entire worlds of super-powered colonists if they dared to raise a rebel flag, or otherwise stop the flow of raw materials to a resource hungry Krypton.

There you go. Happy? :P

It had been 30 years since Clark had breathed the air of Krypton. Between that and his powers being sapped away, it's no surprise that Clark had the reaction that he did. Jor El establishes within the first ten minutes that earth's atmosphere gives Kryptonians their powers while Krypton's blocks them. This is why Zod and Faora had pretty much the same reaction to earth's atmosphere when they were exposed to it. As Clark became sick from his powers being drained, Faora and Zod experienced pain from their latent powers activating.

The ship in the north is problematic because it was a lazy MacGuffin that ultimately proved to have two reasons for being: to give Clark his Super Suit and for him to finally learn about Krypton. Which he could have done from the ship he was sent to earth in. Why he or the Kents never thought to use the key in the ship is, well, beyond stupid. At least Smallville had the presence of mind to require things Clark didn't have at first.

And clearly, the ship isn't fully powered (at first) because Lois is able to breath quite easily when she enters the ship. Consider Mass Effect. When you encounter Vigil he states that he had to start shutting off power to nonessential life pods to conserve energy for as long as a possible. The AI on board more than likely cut off life support and sacrificed the crew to preserve the eggs. There's no evidence inside the ship that there was a conflict.

Given that all of the Kryptonians are invincible while exposed to earth's atmosphere, needing a weapon of mass destruction is pointless. Especially after witnessing the fight in Smallville and final battle between Superman and Zod. The World Engine's history is irrelevant to the plot. As is Zod's inexplicable need to terraform the planet when earth makes gives him more powerful than the Engine itself (as evinced by Clark destroying the thing). This brings up just how flawed the logic is of having ships that can simulate a restrictive atmosphere is. If fighting a physically superior force, soldiers would be outclassed pretty quickly. And a shot to the ship causing it to fireball would kill all the Kryptonians on board.

Kenbo Slice:
I seriously think Warner Bros/DC should get the writers of of the DC animated universe to write their live action movies.

If Paul Dini were writing this movie I'd already be camped out for a ticket.

CriticKitten:

The Dark Knight trilogy, for example, seems to operate under the belief that no one except Batman ever got the bright idea to put on tights and fight crime. When his city is under attack from multiple terrorists threatening a large-scale population (including a guy with a bloody nuke), none of the other heroes are even discussed, much less around to help out.

None of the other heroes exist in The Dark Knight trilogy's universe.

spoonybard.hahs:

Given that all of the Kryptonians are invincible while exposed to earth's atmosphere, needing a weapon of mass destruction is pointless. Especially after witnessing the fight in Smallville and final battle between Superman and Zod. The World Engine's history is irrelevant to the plot. As is Zod's inexplicable need to terraform the planet when earth makes gives him more powerful than the Engine itself (as evinced by Clark destroying the thing). This brings up just how flawed the logic is of having ships that can simulate a restrictive atmosphere is. If fighting a physically superior force, soldiers would be outclassed pretty quickly. And a shot to the ship causing it to fireball would kill all the Kryptonians on board.

It's all about control. Who has it, and who doesn't.

General Zod ultimately fails to deal with a single Superman. If he had exposed the men & women under his command to Earth's atmosphere and then allowed them to become proficient at utilising their superpowers then he would ultimately have to worry about the potential actions of ever more super-powered individuals. And that's just the narrow tip of the wedge of his problems if he had decided not to terraform Earth and instead raised a generation of superhuman demigods. How does one govern or police such a place? The collateral damage caused by simple policing to enforce a basic social contract would be immense.

Woodsey:
None of the other heroes exist in The Dark Knight trilogy's universe.

Yes, that's....kind of my point. >_>

Each of the movies DC has created are built with the assumption that none of its other heroes exist in that same world. DC isn't used to world-building like Marvel's been doing. Which means they're going to run into problems as they try to introduce new ones.

Man of Steel already has this problem in fact: Zod's threatening to basically destroy the entire planet, and Supes is the only guy around to stop him. Not so much as a half-hearted reference to other heroes, the most we get towards creating an overarching world is a satellite with Wayne Enterprises on the side.

CriticKitten:

Woodsey:
None of the other heroes exist in The Dark Knight trilogy's universe.

Yes, that's....kind of my point. >_>

Each of the movies DC has created are built with the assumption that none of its other heroes exist in that same world. DC isn't used to world-building like Marvel's been doing. Which means they're going to run into problems as they try to introduce new ones.

Man of Steel already has this problem in fact: Zod's threatening to basically destroy the entire planet, and Supes is the only guy around to stop him. Not so much as a half-hearted reference to other heroes, the most we get towards creating an overarching world is a satellite with Wayne Enterprises on the side.

Right, so that's a problem with Man of Steel if they're now intending to build a Justice League-oriented universe from that film. It's not an issue with TDK, because they weren't.

Woodsey:
Right, so that's a problem with Man of Steel if they're now intending to build a Justice League-oriented universe from that film. It's not an issue with TDK, because they weren't.

Did you read my original post, or just kinda skim it over and pretend you read it?

I said that TDK trilogy, along with every other DC movie, was written in such a way that it's impossible to believe that other superheroes wouldn't at least try to do something. That's not the same as me saying that it's a "flaw" in the movie. I'm not criticizing Dark Knight Rises because Superman didn't fly into Gotham after Batman went missing and a major terrorist threatened his town with a nuke. That would be absurd. I'm simply pointing out that, the way the script is written, it simply doesn't lend itself to other superheroes existing in the same universe, and actively seems to discourage the very idea that these other heroes might have a bit of input on current events.

And that's perfectly fine when you're designing each movie to exist in its own little bubble, as all their previous movies were (although the Green Lantern movie still suffers in this regard, because the GL Corps is much larger than 12 people and there's no reason they wouldn't call up the entire force to deal with the world-destroying monstrosity).

But the problem is, that's not what they're doing any more. They started over with Man of Steel. They're trying to lead up to the Justice League. But they're still writing their movies as if each one can operate 100% independent of the others. They're not world-building, they're not creating a unified front or even just hinting at future events. They wrote Man of Steel with the same frightened attitude of Superman Returns and a lot of their other movies. It's a fear that if the movie bombs, then their lead-in to other movies would be a waste and would cost them too much money for too little gain.

What they need to realize is that if they're ever going to cash in on Marvel's cash cow, they need to start growing their world.

CriticKitten:

I said that TDK trilogy, along with every other DC movie, was written in such a way that it's impossible to believe that other superheroes wouldn't at least try to do something.

I'm not criticizing Dark Knight Rises because Superman didn't fly into Gotham after Batman went missing and a major terrorist threatened his town with a nuke.

"It's weird other superheroes don't try and do something."

"It would be absurd if Superman - another superhero - flew in and tried to do something."

"I'm simply pointing out that, the way the script is written, it simply doesn't lend itself to other superheroes existing in the same universe.

Are you sure? Because at the start of that paragraph you very much were saying that the way the script is written makes it impossible to ignore that other superheroes should exist in that universe.

Pretty sure I'm not the one who's having trouble understanding what you're saying.

Woodsey:
-snip-

Right, clearly you're not even trying to read my post.

"It would be absurd if Superman - another superhero - flew in and tried to do something."

That's NOT what I said.

I'm not criticizing Dark Knight Rises because Superman didn't fly into Gotham after Batman went missing and a major terrorist threatened his town with a nuke. That would be absurd.

What I said was that it would be absurd to complain about the lack of Superman in DKR.

This right here is proof that you're not even reading my posts. You're just trying to score points in an illusory debate.

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