Geek Girls Lambast Prejudice in Music Video

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To quote Sean Connery " Who would claim to be that, who is not?" I mean really? They choose to claim to be fake geeks, for the attention? Really? That makes about as much sense as someone choosing to be gay because of the broader fashion choices available.

McMindflayer:

No woman browsing through a game shop or hanging out at a convention, or talking about Star Trek are fake geek girls. Fake geek girls don't have the time, patience or desire to do any of those things.

I would disagree somewhat with the statement of "there are no fake geek girls at cons" Considering that comic conventions are the new source of advertisement and promotion for Hollywood and other entertainment industries, there is a LOT of money and "talent scouts" moving through them these days. And if you are an upcoming actress, hoping to get spotted by an agent, nowadays the best place to go would be a geek convention. Dress yourself up in a sexy outfit, walk around, and maybe some agent will spot you and offer you a gig. I've seen several convention "news casts" where various internet figures go around and interview the various costumed con-goers, and quite frequently, the really attractive women, wearing an incredibly sexualized outfit would ask, almost immediately after introducing themselves "Now what site are you hosting this on? Who do you work for?" It sounded very much to me, like they were wanting to have a name and site to add to their resume and portfolio for possible job connections.

THOSE I think, are the type of woman that has engendered the "fake geek girl" concept.

*Disclaimer before every decides to flame*

I'm not saying that EVERY woman who dresses sexy at a con is a fake geek girl, or is simply an actress looking for her "Big Break" by promoting herself at the cons. I'm quite certain that the majority of them are genuine fans of the genres, but to just simply say that 100% of them are there "for the love of the nerd culture" is I think, somewhat naive. Geek culture and Nerddom is now becoming a multi BILLION dollar industry, and people know it. To think that NOBODY is going there with the sole purpose of trying to get found out and picked up for a boost to their career is naive to me.

I mean for god's sake, they hire Booth Girls, models/actresses with no purpose other than to simply look hot, and draw attention to their booths. If you are trying to get into modeling, and maybe you think starting as a Booth Girl would be a good foot in the door method, where would you go to try and catch that gig? Your local con of course.

faefrost:
To quote Sean Connery " Who would claim to be that, who is not?" I mean really? They choose to claim to be fake geeks, for the attention? Really? That makes about as much sense as someone choosing to be gay because of the broader fashion choices available.

It is fair to say that Geeks are not popular, they are not accepted, and they are certainly not the most experienced when it comes to people of the opposite gender. Many have been rejected by women or men or just never had the courage to someone out. It leads them to crave ANY kind of interaction with members of the opposite sex, this is where the main problem is. They will give people attention for just being around them.

And as I said earlier, Not every woman does this. Clearly. Not every woman points out they are a woman. I don't point out who I am, my age, how I look or what I do. If you feel the need to tell everyone you are a male, with a such and such size penis. Then you are just as bad as the "Fake Girl Gamers".

There is no good reason to have your chest showing on a webcam while playing a video game. None.

Gorrath:

xplosive59:
I have no idea why people would label themselves as a 'geek' or anything for that matter.

Self labeling serves as a way for social groups to form around subjects of common interest. Labels can create camaraderie and a sense of unification. Calling yourself a geek is shorthand for saying that you've an interest in a subculture or subjects related to certain pursuits, usually involving games, comics, books, intellectual endeavors, animation ect.

Of course such labels can also cause problems as well, such as a hierarchy and claims that some who claim the label are 'fake', as we see with the issue at hand.

I get that but it still used as a derogatory term like otaku, nerd and emo etc. I believe it is jsut shows like the big bang theory that have really brought the term into full schwing.

Yup, the "guilty until proven innocent" idea still exists here. It's sad when the YouTube comments seemed to have more sense to them than this forum.

Don't get me wrong, there are attention whores out there that claim to be something for the sole purpose of manipulation. However, the only reason why this video exists is because there are a multitude of people that act like all girls are those manipulative attention whores until proven otherwise. They shouldn't have anything to prove, yet they really aren't given a choice by some people. So they got annoyed and they made this. That's the point of this video.

xplosive59:

Gorrath:

xplosive59:
I have no idea why people would label themselves as a 'geek' or anything for that matter.

Self labeling serves as a way for social groups to form around subjects of common interest. Labels can create camaraderie and a sense of unification. Calling yourself a geek is shorthand for saying that you've an interest in a subculture or subjects related to certain pursuits, usually involving games, comics, books, intellectual endeavors, animation ect.

Of course such labels can also cause problems as well, such as a hierarchy and claims that some who claim the label are 'fake', as we see with the issue at hand.

I get that but it still used as a derogatory term like otaku, nerd and emo etc. I believe it is jsut shows like the big bang theory that have really brought the term into full schwing.

When I was young (oh so many moons ago) geek was not a term that you wanted associated with yourself or anything else that you were into. It is amazing to me how much I was derided for the hobbies I enjoyed when I was young. It seems things have shifted fantastically and that geekdom is not only commonplace, but downright mainstream. I am curious as to whether The Big Bang Theory helped cause this or was caused by it. I like using the label geek now even though I hated it when I was young, probably because it seems like it no longer carries the same stigma. If it is still used as derogatory, it seems to have fallen out of favor. I can still imagine socially awkward kids with niche interests might still get the full brunt of it as a bullying term though. It's curious.

Shanahanapp:
It seems like people think a girl is a fake geek unless she proves otherwise. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

That's kinda the point of the video.

Captcha: "haters gonna hate"

Indeed.

Happyninja42:

McMindflayer:

No woman browsing through a game shop or hanging out at a convention, or talking about Star Trek are fake geek girls. Fake geek girls don't have the time, patience or desire to do any of those things.

I would disagree somewhat with the statement of "there are no fake geek girls at cons" Considering that comic conventions are the new source of advertisement and promotion for Hollywood and other entertainment industries, there is a LOT of money and "talent scouts" moving through them these days. And if you are an upcoming actress, hoping to get spotted by an agent, nowadays the best place to go would be a geek convention. Dress yourself up in a sexy outfit, walk around, and maybe some agent will spot you and offer you a gig. I've seen several convention "news casts" where various internet figures go around and interview the various costumed con-goers, and quite frequently, the really attractive women, wearing an incredibly sexualized outfit would ask, almost immediately after introducing themselves "Now what site are you hosting this on? Who do you work for?" It sounded very much to me, like they were wanting to have a name and site to add to their resume and portfolio for possible job connections.

THOSE I think, are the type of woman that has engendered the "fake geek girl" concept.

*Disclaimer before every decides to flame*

I'm not saying that EVERY woman who dresses sexy at a con is a fake geek girl, or is simply an actress looking for her "Big Break" by promoting herself at the cons. I'm quite certain that the majority of them are genuine fans of the genres, but to just simply say that 100% of them are there "for the love of the nerd culture" is I think, somewhat naive. Geek culture and Nerddom is now becoming a multi BILLION dollar industry, and people know it. To think that NOBODY is going there with the sole purpose of trying to get found out and picked up for a boost to their career is naive to me.

I mean for god's sake, they hire Booth Girls, models/actresses with no purpose other than to simply look hot, and draw attention to their booths. If you are trying to get into modeling, and maybe you think starting as a Booth Girl would be a good foot in the door method, where would you go to try and catch that gig? Your local con of course.

thank you.
People here at the Escapists seem to not know that "fake geek girls" exists not to get the attention of nerds because we are so desirable, but because it's profitable.
like I said in an earlier thread: "people belittling and patronizing my favorite hobby for fun and profit"

Gorrath:

Sutter Cane:
You know i fail to see how the attitude that some people seem to have that since some women pretend to be geeks to take advantage of guys, it's fair to be suspicious of geek girls, is any different than saying that since some black people are criminals it's fair to be suspicious of black people, or because some men are abusers its ok to suspect any guy of being abusive.

The attitude is stupid, prejudicial, and needs to stop.

I'm curious as to which people you mean. I'm not sure I've seen anyone who made that leap of logic. Mostly what I've seen is some people claiming fake gamer girls either don't exist or are in no way a problem and other people saying that they do exist and that they can be if they are using lies to manipulate people. Can you quote anyone who has said that the resulting suspicion is justified? Advocating for understanding why some male geek gamers might hold a prejudicial opinion is not the same as saying that said opinion is justifiable.

I mean no disrespect to you, I am simply confused by our seemingly different views on what has been said.

I don't see it so much here, but on the less savory parts of the internet that attitude is more prevalent.

StewShearer:

That said, many women who are genuinely geeks tend to get caught up in the emergent assumption that women who profess a love of nerdy things must be faking it. There exists, for many, an unspoken litmus test that you have to pass to count as a nerd. Being a woman is, for some, seen as a disqualification. In essence, while some are truly (and stupidly) angered by the idea of a woman pretending to be a geek for attention, others act as though women being nerdy at all is something absurd

Where have you seen this thing that exists actually perpetrated?
What was the guys name that did this crap when you saw it in your life?
When you asked him what he was angry about what did he say?
What was the questions on this litmus test?

How are we to challenge these things without all the juicy deets?

It's not that I don't think you're in the same camp as everybody else that buys that line in that this is a thing you've never actually witnessed happen (but that everyone 'knows' 'happens' 'all the time')... Actually, I lied, that's exactly what I think. But to be fair to the well meaning people that perpetuate this stuff, nobody has tried to come up with some anecdotal crap, they're all earnestly straight forward in a 'oh yeah...' kind of way that they've never seen anything resembling what they're talking about.

Andy of Comix Inc:

Yes, but that it doesn't exist for men, too, is why it's worrying. Or is there "fake geek men" we have to watch out for, too? And if there are - why don't people gun for them, too? It's probably cos most of the people shouting out against "fake geek girls" are insecure little straight fellas, eh.

I think nobody is gunning for 'fake geek men' because there is only so much time in the day and they're too busy hunting down the stupid dudebros who are stupid enough to only buy the yearly CoD and Madden updates, but they deserve it cause they're ruining gaming, AMIRITE!!?

Wait...

This whole situation I feel is quite ridiculous and restricted to two places prone to immaturity.... school, and the internet.

That music video is equally silly; because adults shouldn't be being harassed for being geeky, in fact, they shouldn't usually be in any kind of situation where anyone notices such a thing.

In my experience being an adult is like this: you work, you come home and enjoy whatever you enjoy in privacy by yourself/with your family (your family shouldn't be anti-whatever you are) and then you sleep and start over. At work you can talk to others but you really should be able to keep what you like to do in your free time to yourself if you really are so insecure about it; think others will harass you about it; are female and feel alienated.

I'm male and that's how I've always been. I wear glasses but I don't consider myself to appear geeky/nerdy, I have gotten the odd rude question or two, but it's not enough to make me go on an 'I'm offended' parade. For example when I was buying some quarters (to do laundry) Cashier: "Gonna play some video games?" me: "No, I need to do laundry". Anyway, I'm male and I do enjoy geeky/nerdy things, from RPGs to Star Trek (the tv series, not the latest movies).

Also, since when is geeky/nerdy the same thing? It was my impression that geeks loved technology and gadgets and nerds loved intellectualism and thought provoking activities like Books, Games, etc. You can be both, but both aren't the same thing.

Sutter Cane:

Gorrath:

Sutter Cane:
You know i fail to see how the attitude that some people seem to have that since some women pretend to be geeks to take advantage of guys, it's fair to be suspicious of geek girls, is any different than saying that since some black people are criminals it's fair to be suspicious of black people, or because some men are abusers its ok to suspect any guy of being abusive.

The attitude is stupid, prejudicial, and needs to stop.

I'm curious as to which people you mean. I'm not sure I've seen anyone who made that leap of logic. Mostly what I've seen is some people claiming fake gamer girls either don't exist or are in no way a problem and other people saying that they do exist and that they can be if they are using lies to manipulate people. Can you quote anyone who has said that the resulting suspicion is justified? Advocating for understanding why some male geek gamers might hold a prejudicial opinion is not the same as saying that said opinion is justifiable.

I mean no disrespect to you, I am simply confused by our seemingly different views on what has been said.

I don't see it so much here, but on the less savory parts of the internet that attitude is more prevalent.

Ahh, okay. I thought you meant in this thread specifically. Anonymity tends to breed people spouting off ignorantly about pretty much every subject unfortunately. This site seems to be a lot better than most for that kind of thing thanks to diligent moderation. In a broader context, I do see people who try to justify the prejudice, and those people are wrong to not recognize that it is an issue. Thanks for your clarification.

Ok, this is a question that people need to start answering before this conversation goes on any longer:

Do you or do you not have a problem with women getting grief because men often wrongfully assume that they don't know what they're talking about?

This question is NOT about the following topics:
Do 'fake' geek girls really exist?
Are 'fake' geeks girls annoying?
Are 'fakes' of any kind annoying?
Do people care about the issue?
Have you ever actually seen or heard of this happening to anyone?
Have you ever wrongfully given someone (of either gender) trouble for being a 'fake' in any context?
Anything to do with 'booth babes', 'cam whores', or women using their sexuality to get attention.
Any comparison to anything that happens to guys too.
Anything to do with the quality of the video.

Also, if you think that you have to take any of the things I have listed as irrelevant into consideration in order to properly address the question you are dodging the issue.

If you claim that this issue is in no way related to sexism, then you are dodging the issue.

If you feel the need to respond to this post telling me how I'm missing the point, or being inflammatory, or how I'm wrong (even though all I've done is ask a question), then you are seriously dodging the issue.

If you feel that the question I am asking isn't what this whole thing is about, then you are completely missing the issue and should go and do some research as to why people keep bringing this up in the first place.

From what I've heard/read some of the "Fake Geek Girl" stuff is based around streamers who are attractive, usually play WoW, and show their face in the corner in addition to gameplay.

There's an article on Kotaku (I know, I know) by Patricia Hernandez (just bear with me) that delves into this aspect of it a bit. If nothing else it would someone a broader view on the whole thing - I still don't know what to make of that last example she brings up that doesn't have an interview.

I mean that twitch.tv page looks like a porn site... but I suppose it's bad to judge people based on initial appearances? But then again it's a website, and it looks fairly professional which means the person had a very specific intent in mind so it's different (I think?) than judging a someone's promiscuity based on their fashion sense...

StewShearer:
That said, we can't help but puzzle at why some would even want nerd-ism to be male exclusive. Personally we'd love there to be more women that share our joy of Star Wars and oddly shaped dice. It's just a bit easier to get past our crippling social awkwardness when we have things like the various ways George Lucas butchered the prequel trilogy as conversation starters.

Pretty simple answer, here. A standby self-assurance is "she won't go out with me because I'm a geek." But if SHE'S a geek too, the reason she won't go out with you is YOU, not your interests. God forbid.

Mister Chippy:
Ok, this is a question that people need to start answering before this conversation goes on any longer:

Do you or do you not have a problem with women getting grief because men often wrongfully assume that they don't know what they're talking about?

This question is NOT about the following topics:
Do 'fake' geek girls really exist?
Are 'fake' geeks girls annoying?
Are 'fakes' of any kind annoying?
Do people care about the issue?
Have you ever actually seen or heard of this happening to anyone?
Have you ever wrongfully given someone (of either gender) trouble for being a 'fake' in any context?
Anything to do with 'booth babes', 'cam whores', or women using their sexuality to get attention.
Any comparison to anything that happens to guys too.
Anything to do with the quality of the video.

Also, if you think that you have to take any of the things I have listed as irrelevant into consideration in order to properly address the question you are dodging the issue.

If you claim that this issue is in no way related to sexism, then you are dodging the issue.

If you feel the need to respond to this post telling me how I'm missing the point, or being inflammatory, or how I'm wrong (even though all I've done is ask a question), then you are seriously dodging the issue.

If you feel that the question I am asking isn't what this whole thing is about, then you are completely missing the issue and should go and do some research as to why people keep bringing this up in the first place.

Your question is simple and the answer is simple. No it is not okay to assume someone doesn't know something out of prejudice. Out of curiosity, since I've not seen anyone here claim that it is okay, what do you hope to gain by asking the question? As for the other topics you mentioned, they are irrelevant to answering your question, but they most certainly are not irrelevant to the causes of the issue and are worth discussing and analyzing in that context. There are other issues, problems and prejudices that are related to the fake gamer girl stuff and there is nothing at all wrong with talking about them.

People whinging about fake game girls deserve to be roundly, soundly and mercilessly mocked. They deserve no respect whatsoever, and will get none from me. I like my hobbies becoming more inclusive. I like seeing cute girls dressing up like characters, and if they're doing it so that they'll get a thumbs up from me, more power to them.

In fact, I would much rather girls come to geeks and nerds for their attention needs (if they do need the attention) than to go for studs and athletes, who are far more likely to see the girls as nothing but prizes to be won, used up and then traded in for a newer model a few years later. Geeks and nerds are far more likely to actually appreciate girls trying to please us and more likely to try to please the girls in return, and so it is a better environment for them to try to exist in.

What the difference between that painfully shy 18 year old girl who comes to Comic Con or Fan Expo or whatever dressed as Rikku who is trying to get attention from gamers and nerds, and that painfully shy 18 year old girl wearing a micro-bikini top, a mini-skiry and stilleto high heels with the Michigan Wolverines colours, trying to gain attention from jocks, or coming to a rock concert wearing the same general outfit to try to get the attention of the band? Dressing up as Rikku gives the girl a chance to make a deeper connection to the objects of her attention - she can talk to us about Final Fantasy, about Japanese anime, about video games in general. Or we can talk to her about it, get her to understand what it is about the character we like, beyond the cute outfit.

What does the jock or the rock star have to talk about? How nice her tits are? How nice her ass is? How great she is at blowjobs? Maybe she has an appreciation for football and they can connect about football, or about music and they can talk about how much fun it is to play Stairway to Heaven while people around them are trying to tear their ears off. But let's get serious here - it not likely to be much more than a wham-bam-I'm-done-get-lost situation.

No tits! What's the point in this video?!?

An Actual criticism: I couldn't read some of the signs...

Fake geeks do exists, though, it's just not limited to girls. I think geeky guys zone in on the female ones just because they seem the most obvious to them... Or something. But fake geeks are nothing more than people taking advantage of a fad. In fact, I think I've said this before...

I found the song kinda dull and whiney, too. But the message itself seemed fine to me, you really shouldn't bombard people with questions in order to verify their geek creds. If someone likes the Avengers movie but hasn't read any of the comics, don't yell at them; to offer suggestions on what comics to read. I thought geeks were supposed to enjoy doing that. I know I do. "Oh, you say you like Batman but you've only seen Nolan's trilogy?!? Well, I'll tell you something! You should read Year One, it's what Batman Begins was based on. I also recommend Dark Knight RETURNS, City of Crime, No Man's Land and Long Halloween. I think you'll enjoy them." That's how it should go. Kinda seems like a better way to get laid, too...

Tono Makt:
People whinging about fake game girls deserve to be roundly, soundly and mercilessly mocked. They deserve no respect whatsoever, and will get none from me. I like my hobbies becoming more inclusive. I like seeing cute girls dressing up like characters, and if they're doing it so that they'll get a thumbs up from me, more power to them.

In fact, I would much rather girls come to geeks and nerds for their attention needs (if they do need the attention) than to go for studs and athletes, who are far more likely to see the girls as nothing but prizes to be won, used up and then traded in for a newer model a few years later. Geeks and nerds are far more likely to actually appreciate girls trying to please us and more likely to try to please the girls in return, and so it is a better environment for them to try to exist in.

What the difference between that painfully shy 18 year old girl who comes to Comic Con or Fan Expo or whatever dressed as Rikku who is trying to get attention from gamers and nerds, and that painfully shy 18 year old girl wearing a micro-bikini top, a mini-skiry and stilleto high heels with the Michigan Wolverines colours, trying to gain attention from jocks, or coming to a rock concert wearing the same general outfit to try to get the attention of the band? Dressing up as Rikku gives the girl a chance to make a deeper connection to the objects of her attention - she can talk to us about Final Fantasy, about Japanese anime, about video games in general. Or we can talk to her about it, get her to understand what it is about the character we like, beyond the cute outfit.

What does the jock or the rock star have to talk about? How nice her tits are? How nice her ass is? How great she is at blowjobs? Maybe she has an appreciation for football and they can connect about football, or about music and they can talk about how much fun it is to play Stairway to Heaven while people around them are trying to tear their ears off. But let's get serious here - it not likely to be much more than a wham-bam-I'm-done-get-lost situation.

As a 'jock' I find most of what you have to say about people who play and enjoy sports to be just as bad a bunch of stereotyping BS as anything related to 'geeks.' As someone who has expressed concern with the damage people lying to emotionally manipulate other people can do, please, feel free to mock and ridicule me. I've probably been doing more 'whining' than anyone else in this thread about the problem, so please mock me as you desire. I would however appreciate it greatly if you could read and respond to the points in my posts as well, if that suits you. If not, have a field day. I can take it I'm sure.

Mister Chippy:
Ok, this is a question that people need to start answering before this conversation goes on any longer:

Do you or do you not have a problem with women getting grief because men often wrongfully assume that they don't know what they're talking about?

I absolutely abhor the idea of my peers (gamers and nerds) giving women and girls grief because they think the women and girls don't know what they're talking about.

I absolutely abhor the idea of my peers (gamers and nerds) giving women and girls grief because they find out that the women and girls actually don't know what they're talking about, and are looking for attention.

I absolutely abhor the idea of my peers (gamers and nerds) trying to have some sort of geek and nerd litmus test to try to keep people out of our hobby, regardless of who they apply it to.

Mister Chippy:
Also, if you think that you have to take any of the things I have listed as irrelevant into consideration in order to properly address the question you are dodging the issue.

If you claim that this issue is in no way related to sexism, then you are dodging the issue.

If you feel the need to respond to this post telling me how I'm missing the point, or being inflammatory, or how I'm wrong (even though all I've done is ask a question), then you are seriously dodging the issue.

If you feel that the question I am asking isn't what this whole thing is about, then you are completely missing the issue and should go and do some research as to why people keep bringing this up in the first place.

Eh, I disagree slightly on some of these points. What you've listed as irrelevant may have some relevance to the issue at hand, though focusing on those points exclusively does miss the overall issue. It's like debating how many leaves are on each stem of a branch of a tree while we're discussing how the Emerald Ash Borer is destroying a forest full of Ash tree's. The number of leaves on each stem of a branch has some relevance (as a way of identifying tree's, for example) but the overall issue is the forest being destroyed.

Regarding sexism, I think we focus too much on the sexism aspect of it. It's there and it's a strong part of it, but I think the issue goes much deeper than Boys vs Girls. It's a part of the issue, sure, but I think it has more to do with the insecurities of the male gamers and nerds, seeing women who normally are attracted to the Alpha Male/Jocks/Rockers/"Cool Guys" coming and asking for acceptance with the Omega Males/Nerds/Geeks/"Losers" and thinking that they're being condescending. In some ways it could be like how many of us felt in school when a Cool Kid came to talk to us in math class and it ended up they were flattering us so we'd do their homework for them. That annoyed us to no end, regardless of the gender of the cool kid.

Mister Chippy:
This question is NOT about the following topics:
Do 'fake' geek girls really exist?
Are 'fake' geeks girls annoying?
Are 'fakes' of any kind annoying?
Do people care about the issue?
Have you ever actually seen or heard of this happening to anyone?
Have you ever wrongfully given someone (of either gender) trouble for being a 'fake' in any context?
Anything to do with 'booth babes', 'cam whores', or women using their sexuality to get attention.
Any comparison to anything that happens to guys too.
Anything to do with the quality of the video.

Each of these questions can have some relevance to the topic at hand. They're all tree's in the forest, so to speak, so you can't look at the forest as a whole without looking at the tree's. Still, for the issue they should be PART of the discussion, not the discussion on the whole.

Gorrath:

Mister Chippy:
-snip-

Your question is simple and the answer is simple. No it is not okay to assume someone doesn't know something out of prejudice. Out of curiosity, since I've not seen anyone here claim that it is okay, what do you hope to gain by asking the question? As for the other topics you mentioned, they are irrelevant to answering your question, but they most certainly are not irrelevant to the causes of the issue and are worth discussing and analyzing in that context. There are other issues, problems and prejudices that are related to the fake gamer girl stuff and there is nothing at all wrong with talking about them.

The reason I ask the question is because while there are few people actively denying that the treatment female geeks get is a problem, there are plenty of people whose first response to any mention of it seems to be "But..." followed by some mention of many of the things I deemed irrelevant to answering the original question.

Yes, it's true that to fully discuss a problem people need to talk about all the little pieces that go into making it a problem in the first place. However the main issue of this problem is not the real 'fakes' and all that other stuff, but sexism, and that is something that just doesn't seem to get addressed as much as any of the other topics. Sure, people all say "sexism is bad" but because the problem exists in the first place (and I doubt that anyone actually thinks of themselves as sexist) we need to actually bother figuring out where the behavior comes from, and it's not from boob-tubers or boot-babes. That might be where the attitudes that perpetuate this behavior originated from, but that isn't where the behavior itself comes from.

The discussion currently seems centered around "This is what caused these attitudes in the first place" and while that might be useful to start discussing after the fact, right now it's a red herring. These attitudes are already here, and learning how they got here (and honestly I think it's more due to the response men give to so called 'attention whore' than the actual people themselves) isn't really doing much good if we don't bother looking at where those attitudes are currently coming from.

Frankly, the way the current discussion seems focused on why people dislike 'fake' geek girls is just plain old counterproductive, even if the attitude is "Well we're only talking about the REAL 'fakes', not the real geek girls." That just totally misses the point that it's REAL geek girls who are getting branded as 'fakes' and being given shit. Honestly, while I generally try my hardest to like people, I agree that people who pretend to know something they don't can be annoying, even if I try my hardest to educate them whenever I meet them. Thing is, focusing on the 'real fakes' just detracts attention from the issue at hand, which is that REAL geek girls are being treated with disdain because of these attitudes.

The fact that almost all the discussion on this issue circles back to 'real fakes' seems to show that we're not yet at a stage where discussing that actually makes sense. We need to actually confront the issue at hand instead of going around looking for causes, arguing about what makes someone a 'real' nerd or not, and bickering with one another.

Mister Chippy:

The reason I ask the question is because while there are few people actively denying that the treatment female geeks get is a problem, there are plenty of people whose first response to any mention of it seems to be "But..." followed by some mention of many of the things I deemed irrelevant to answering the original question.

Yes, it's true that to fully discuss a problem people need to talk about all the little pieces that go into making it a problem in the first place. However the main issue of this problem is not the real 'fakes' and all that other stuff, but sexism, and that is something that just doesn't seem to get addressed as much as any of the other topics. Sure, people all say "sexism is bad" but because the problem exists in the first place (and I doubt that anyone actually thinks of themselves as sexist) we need to actually bother figuring out where the behavior comes from, and it's not from boob-tubers or boot-babes. That might be where the attitudes that perpetuate this behavior originated from, but that isn't where the behavior itself comes from.

The discussion currently seems centered around "This is what caused these attitudes in the first place" and while that might be useful to start discussing after the fact, right now it's a red herring. These attitudes are already here, and learning how they got here (and honestly I think it's more due to the response men give to so called 'attention whore' than the actual people themselves) isn't really doing much good if we don't bother looking at where those attitudes are currently coming from.

Frankly, the way the current discussion seems focused on why people dislike 'fake' geek girls is just plain old counterproductive, even if the attitude is "Well we're only talking about the REAL 'fakes', not the real geek girls." That just totally misses the point that it's REAL geek girls who are getting branded as 'fakes' and being given shit. Honestly, while I generally try my hardest to like people, I agree that people who pretend to know something they don't can be annoying, even if I try my hardest to educate them whenever I meet them. Thing is, focusing on the 'real fakes' just detracts attention from the issue at hand, which is that REAL geek girls are being treated with disdain because of these attitudes.

The fact that almost all the discussion on this issue circles back to 'real fakes' seems to show that we're not yet at a stage where discussing that actually makes sense. We need to actually confront the issue at hand instead of going around looking for causes, arguing about what makes someone a 'real' nerd or not, and bickering with one another.

I appreciate your through response, thank you. If I may though I'm confused by a seeming contradiction in one of your paragraphs.

You say " 'This is what caused these attitudes in the first place' and while that might be useful to start discussing after the fact, right now it's a red herring. These attitudes are already here, and learning how they got here (and honestly I think it's more due to the response men give to so called 'attention whore' than the actual people themselves) isn't really doing much good if we don't bother looking at where those attitudes are currently coming from."

Isn't looking at where these attitudes are currently coming from the same as finding out what caused these attitudes in the first place?

Also, I think the reason people are discussing the other stuff as opposed to the prejudicial treatment itself is because, by and large, everyone agrees it is wrong and a problem. With that established, what there seems to be disagreement on is the rest of the stuff. It is hard to have a lengthy conversation about something everyone agrees is an issue and that people should stop doing, it is much easier to have a lengthy discussion about causes and effects that people do not agree on. It's not that we are attempting to obfuscate the issue, we agree on the issue, it is the other issues where there are things to be ironed out.

Now I would disagree with you on one point, and that is the issue of sex. People, even on The Escapist here, call out all sorts of people for being fake. How many times do you see people mention 'CoD Dudebros' and the like? The fake gamer girl thing is related to all the other attempts to ostracize people that don;t fit the preconceived mold and there is a lot of crossover that has nothing to do with gender. Of course there is no one cause of the fake gamer girl thing either, and some of it is based in gender, some of it is based on exclusion, some of it is based on fear and suspiscion and probably a number of other things as well. What I'm saying is, is that gender is only a part of the issue and the reasons for the gender part of it don't all stem from out and out sexism either.

For all the complaining about it I see on this site, I have never actually seen a female be harassed as a "fake geek", not on the net and not in real life. Only time I have ever seen anyone called that it was the exact kind of people McMindflayer was talking about on the first page, and those are the kind of people who do very much come across as fake.

Gorrath:

Tono Makt:
People whinging about fake game girls deserve to be roundly, soundly and mercilessly mocked. They deserve no respect whatsoever, and will get none from me. I like my hobbies becoming more inclusive. I like seeing cute girls dressing up like characters, and if they're doing it so that they'll get a thumbs up from me, more power to them.

In fact, I would much rather girls come to geeks and nerds for their attention needs (if they do need the attention) than to go for studs and athletes, who are far more likely to see the girls as nothing but prizes to be won, used up and then traded in for a newer model a few years later. Geeks and nerds are far more likely to actually appreciate girls trying to please us and more likely to try to please the girls in return, and so it is a better environment for them to try to exist in.

What the difference between that painfully shy 18 year old girl who comes to Comic Con or Fan Expo or whatever dressed as Rikku who is trying to get attention from gamers and nerds, and that painfully shy 18 year old girl wearing a micro-bikini top, a mini-skiry and stilleto high heels with the Michigan Wolverines colours, trying to gain attention from jocks, or coming to a rock concert wearing the same general outfit to try to get the attention of the band? Dressing up as Rikku gives the girl a chance to make a deeper connection to the objects of her attention - she can talk to us about Final Fantasy, about Japanese anime, about video games in general. Or we can talk to her about it, get her to understand what it is about the character we like, beyond the cute outfit.

What does the jock or the rock star have to talk about? How nice her tits are? How nice her ass is? How great she is at blowjobs? Maybe she has an appreciation for football and they can connect about football, or about music and they can talk about how much fun it is to play Stairway to Heaven while people around them are trying to tear their ears off. But let's get serious here - it not likely to be much more than a wham-bam-I'm-done-get-lost situation.

As a 'jock' I find most of what you have to say about people who play and enjoy sports to be just as bad a bunch of stereotyping BS as anything related to 'geeks.' As someone who has expressed concern with the damage people lying to emotionally manipulate other people can do, please, feel free to mock and ridicule me. I've probably been doing more 'whining' than anyone else in this thread about the problem, so please mock me as you desire. I would however appreciate it greatly if you could read and respond to the points in my posts as well, if that suits you. If not, have a field day. I can take it I'm sure.

I probably will respond in a mocking manner to many of your points, once I get around to reading them. And I'm not to concerned that you're upset that I'm describing jocks in that manner as I was part of the jock culture in my high school, being part of football, soccer and hockey teams to the point where my fourth year of high school I got away with missing more than half of my classes because I was on the hockey team, we were a champion team and the school was quite proud of us. (I may have been a third line grinder and penalty killer in hockey, and a special teams player in football, but I was still on the teams) And at the same time, I was a gamer, a Star Trek nerd, a comics fan and a geek who got pretty good marks in the geeky subjects. Heck, I was even in the school band for 4 years and was one of the founding members of a high school jazz band. (I probably fit in so well with all three groups because everyone knew that the day I graduated from high school, I was leaving my home town and never going back, and that I didn't care to make either friends or enemies of anyone.)

So yeah. I've seen the way jocks treated the girls who swooned over them. I've watched as star high school hockey players have juggled two or three girlfriends at the same time. I've watched football players break up with girlfriends because suddenly a new girl has shown attention to them and they want to see if she's as good at giving blow jobs as the first girl. I've watched as girls who weren't suitably awed by the football team were chased out of parties by one group of players while another group called up other girls they knew because there were always more girls out there. I've listened to the locker room talk about which girls are easy, which ones aren't, which ones you can lead around with a smile and a few nice words and which girls to just not bother with. I've cringed as girls tried to ingratiate themselves to the jocks when it was painfully obvious that they had no idea what they were talking about. ("It was so awesome when you got that touchdown last night! The goalie was so faked out!" "... sure. Awesome, uh, to score that touchdown in last night's hockey game to win the game.") And cringed even more when the jock they were talking to was painfully condescending to her in return but he was paying attention to her so it was all right.

I'm pretty confident in my assertion of how jocks generally see women. Sure there are exceptions - me, for example. Though I'm not a positive exception because I didn't give a damn about anyone in high school, male or female. I wanted no ties and I have no ties. (You might argue that I was at least as bad as the jocks who saw women as disposable since I saw what was going on and didn't even try to put a stop to it. I don't think I could reasonably argue against that particular point.)

As with before, I'd say innocent before proven guilty is probably the important thing here.

There's nothing wrong with chastising somebody for being an asshole, but assume he/she isn't an asshole until he/she proves otherwise so that way we don't have this problem.

Gorrath:

Mister Chippy:
-snip-

I appreciate your through response, thank you. If I may though I'm confused by a seeming contradiction in one of your paragraphs.

You say " 'This is what caused these attitudes in the first place' and while that might be useful to start discussing after the fact, right now it's a red herring. These attitudes are already here, and learning how they got here (and honestly I think it's more due to the response men give to so called 'attention whore' than the actual people themselves) isn't really doing much good if we don't bother looking at where those attitudes are currently coming from."

Isn't looking at where these attitudes are currently coming from the same as finding out what caused these attitudes in the first place?

Also, I think the reason people are discussing the other stuff as opposed to the prejudicial treatment itself is because, by and large, everyone agrees it is wrong and a problem. With that established, what there seems to be disagreement on is the rest of the stuff. It is hard to have a lengthy conversation about something everyone agrees is an issue and that people should stop doing, it is much easier to have a lengthy discussion about causes and effects that people do not agree on. It's not that we are attempting to obfuscate the issue, we agree on the issue, it is the other issues where there are things to be ironed out.

Now I would disagree with you on one point, and that is the issue of sex. People, even on The Escapist here, call out all sorts of people for being fake. How many times do you see people mention 'CoD Dudebros' and the like? The fake gamer girl thing is related to all the other attempts to ostracize people that don;t fit the preconceived mold and there is a lot of crossover that has nothing to do with gender. Of course there is no one cause of the fake gamer girl thing either, and some of it is based in gender, some of it is based on exclusion, some of it is based on fear and suspiscion and probably a number of other things as well. What I'm saying is, is that gender is only a part of the issue and the reasons for the gender part of it don't all stem from out and out sexism either.

Firstly, let me apologize for the confusion. That was poor wording on my part. "Where the attitudes are coming from now" was my poorly worded attempt to say "The current source of all this shit." Meaning where all the current sexism is coming from.

And yes, I will admit that this is not wholly a problem for women either. Instead it's a mix of the sexism and elitism so common in nerd culture. However, I feel that focusing on the sexism aspect is a good place to start, because as you said everyone agrees that sexism is a problem. However, quite a few people don't believe elitism is a problem, and if we try to tackle the elitist side of the issue first I think it's likely that people will just run into a brick wall, because after all saying elitism is bad sound a lot like saying "You aren't as special as you think you are." to some people.

If anything, this makes me think that the ever-reviled Fake Geek Girl is a bit of an odd beast, a formless concept we profess to find at cons or in our own families or workplaces, but that's actually really difficult to properly define.

Oh, snap! A girl with a nice bod and Finn's hat and she doesn't play games and only is a dedicated Adventure Time fan? BURN THE HEATHEN! Oh, wow! A Trekkie woman whose only sin is to be unable to remember the exact events of Voyager's "Hope and Fear" episode? SHE'S A WITCH! BURN THE WITCH!

We're stuck with the crazy notion that anyone who identifies as a geek will wear sedate or self-conscious clothing, or will never dare to appear in appealing clothes or in suggestive ones, either. We've assumed that there's a certain BMI and morphology type behind true hardcore fans, and it's all something we've done subconsciously, after deluding ourselves into thinking geekdom was a boy's club. Most of us know things change or we've always embraced the female element of our group - but there's always one or two commenters out there that make me cringe.

Take the Tom Hiddleston appearance at SDCC. The on-site comments were generally favorable, but hit YouTube and you'll find nuggets like "God, all those screaming vaginas... Plz shut up." and that just -

It gets my goat. It really does. I came pretty close to replying to that comment with something along the lines of "Nice going, you've officially disclosed to the entire Internet that you're insecure around the fairer sex. Have fun trying to be considered mature!"

As this is really the meat of this issue. Insecurity, that is. Some of us are senior geeks who have kids and freaking *grandkids*, and we still feel obliged to build up little forts made up of throw pillows and chairs.

"SUPER SECRE TBOYZ CLUB - NO GURLZ ALLOWD."

Yeah, great. Awesome. I don't need to stick around idiots who shame the rest of us geeks by acting like petulant children.

Wow... I wasn't even aware this whole 'fake geek girl' thing had turned into a shitstorm. I just thought it was a topic brought up by a few idiots, and that it must have been shot down at some point by common sense. I'm amazed that it's become enough of a thing to warrant a video response like this.

Wake the fuck up people. This isn't the Eighties anymore. Nerd culture isn't some despised culture of outcasts and social lepers anymore. Outside of high school, nerd culture isn't some form of byword for social inadequacy anymore. Nerd culture is now the dominant force in entertainment. Every single major Hollywood blockbuster is targeted at nerd culture. Videogames, the archetypal nerd medium, are now the most successful entertainment medium going. Nerds are responsible for modern pop-culture milestones such as Google, the iPod, the Matrix and smartphones. Nerd culture is now recognised as nothing to be ashamed of. My current girlfriend said she likes me specifically because I'm nerdier than her.

So why do we still have this persecution complex? And why do we view attempts to identify as 'nerd' with such suspicion? Seriously, the BNP's immigration policy makes more sense than the response of nerds towards things like 'gamer girls'. Yes, girls play videogames now. No, not in a fake, trying-to-identify way. They actually play videogames. I went on a date last year with a girl. The first thing we talked about is videogames. Her favourites were Tomb Raider and Assassins Creed. A friend of mine went out with a gamer girl for a few months. We had a great conversation about Nintendo once, and about all their games we loved.

It's time for nerd culture to remove the huge stick from its collective ass. It's as if people want nerd culture to remain a maligned community of outcasts. Fuck that. I enjoy videogames, anime and fantasy. If other people want to get in on that as well, then I'm not going to tell them to stop crashing the party. And I'm sure as shit not going to lecture women that they can't be 'real' nerds, as if that is in anyway justifiable at all.

Oh, so she says she's into nerdy stuff but likes to show off her boobs? Where does it say nerds have to have crippling self-esteem issues? Someone can be nerdy and still enjoy flashing their parts. Nerds can be nerds and still be socially well adjusted, charming, good looking and healthy. Or they can be overweight, neurotic basement-dwelling manchildren. There's no Sacred Text defining who can and can't be a nerd. And it's time people grew he fuck up, and stopped trying to hog the ball.

Stop judging geeks based on their genitalia, and start judging them based on the nerd stuff they're into. Have a pair of boobs? I couldn't care less. Into Farscape? Now you and me have something to start talking about.

Andy of Comix Inc:
Yes, but that it doesn't exist for men, too, is why it's worrying. Or is there "fake geek men" we have to watch out for, too? And if there are - why don't people gun for them, too? It's probably cos most of the people shouting out against "fake geek girls" are insecure little straight fellas, eh.

There are, and they do (they are a little bit more uncommon because there's less to gain, but otherwise yes, they are totally a thing that happens). It's a pretty common response in these threads to talk about them, which then gets described in two different ways, depending on who is talking about it. Either "You're only bringing them up now to pretend this isn't really about sexism" or "The difference is that no one bats an eye about it when it's directed at dudebros."

IndomitableSam:
You've got a point. I'm a 30 year old woman and I still bristle a bit at really good looking women saying they are gamers. That has to do with me being a girl, though, and insecure. Not about 'geek-cred' or whatever. Though, honestly, I would believe the less attractive person more than the attractive one.

But I'm also a judgemental asshole, and now that I'm grown up, I resent the popular girls from high school just as much as I did when I was 17... just now I know exactly why. And I'm still in that mindset of anyone prettier than me must be a bitch and other things and not as true a fan as I am... but that's just me having issues and never having gotten closure from all the bullying I got growing up in the 80's and 90's as a really geeky girl.

Like I said in a previous thread -- geeky subcultures were ultimately built by, for, and around the kinds of people who obsess about and delve deep into escapism, and those sorts of people are rarely undamaged. There's a reason that said subcultures have tended to be pretty insular in the past, and whatever is left will go back to being that way again once it stops being trendy.

Gorrath:
What gets me is that if a guy attended female dominated hobby events with the specific purpose of targeting emotionally vulnerable women to exploit them for sex and money, I doubt people would be so charitable to him or claim that it wasn't happening or blame women taken advantage of in such a way for being suspicious and hurt.

Ironically, the response would likely be support for events in that hobby from which men were explicitly excluded, because there is nothing wrong with doing that. Like that Girl's Meetup that is arranged during each PAX East and PAX Prime since 2010, that no one bats an eye at.

Tono Makt:

I'm pretty confident in my assertion of how jocks generally see women. Sure there are exceptions - me, for example. Though I'm not a positive exception because I didn't give a damn about anyone in high school, male or female. I wanted no ties and I have no ties. (You might argue that I was at least as bad as the jocks who saw women as disposable since I saw what was going on and didn't even try to put a stop to it. I don't think I could reasonably argue against that particular point.)

What you are doing is generalizing based on your personal experiences, which is a component of prejudice. It may even be true that 'most' jocks act in a certain way, but I certainly didn't see it that way. For as many times as I saw 'jocks' manipulating girls, I saw girls doing the exact same thing. We are, all of us, colored by our experiences and so what you saw as the norm for jocks I saw as the norm for high school, except where it wasn't true. I had a friend who juggled girls like crazy and he was part of the 'out' crowd, a gamer and such though 'goth' was his own identifier. I also had a friend who was a quarterback, got his heart broken by a girl who was two-timing him.

So, while your observations are what they are, your generalizations are still not justified. I don't even mean this as a condemnation, just as a point of academics. I would warn that such generalizations can be very harmful though, and, perhaps with some irony, part of the cause of the fake gamer girl problem itself.

Gorrath:

Tono Makt:
People whinging about fake game girls deserve to be roundly, soundly and mercilessly mocked. They deserve no respect whatsoever, and will get none from me.

I would however appreciate it greatly if you could read and respond to the points in my posts as well, if that suits you. If not, have a field day. I can take it I'm sure.

After reading your responses to this thread, I'm pretty sure you're not talking about fake gamer girls - you're talking about predators. You are talking about the extreme end of the spectrum of the idea of fake gamer girls. And it's not a good example to use in this discussion. It would be like me pointing to the Stuebenville rape case where the high school football players raped a drunk and unconscious girl, and applying that to the case of high school jocks being terrible people. It's not a fair example to use because the vast majority of high school jocks AREN'T rapists. They aren't feminists by any stretch of the imagination, and a large number of them can quite accurately be described as sexist pigs, but dumping a girl because you want a blowjob from another girl instead isn't in the same continent as rape.

Most high speed trains are safe, the recent tragedy in Spain is an outlier. Most air travel is safe, the recent crash in San Francisco is an outlier. Most rescue workers save lives, the tragedy in San Francisco where a survivor was potentially hit by a rescue vehicle and killed was an outlier. The majority of what we call fake gamer girls are benign, the example of your friend being preyed upon by two predators is similarly an outlier. It's the 4+ Standard Deviations from the norm. It's the once-in-a-thousand-years-storm, like the one that flooded the entire town of High River, Alberta this summer, and most of Calgary. The shark attack off of Florida, the getting a black widow spider in a bunch of grapes. It happens - but it's not an indication of the overall issue.

They could have chosen to go after an elderly victim. Or a recent immigrant. They might have tried to take advantage of lonely Christians, or someone else they thought of as a potential victim. They happened to choose geeks - and though you haven't mentioned if they took advantage of more than one geek, I'm be surprised if their only victim was your friend. I'd imagine that they had several aliases on multiple sites, and had at least a handful of victims being victimized at the same time.

Schadrach:
Like I said in a previous thread -- geeky subcultures were ultimately built by, for, and around the kinds of people who obsess about and delve deep into escapism, and those sorts of people are rarely undamaged. There's a reason that said subcultures have tended to be pretty insular in the past, and whatever is left will go back to being that way again once it stops being trendy.

But that is still NO EXCUSE for being an asshole to anybody. Everybody has pain in the past, everybody has been made fun of for SOMETHING. But that doesn't mean we're allowed to harbor these feelings as adults and continue to release them at those who resemble those who hurt us in the past. And nor is that some sort of "tradition" we should keep and value within our culture. It doesn't matter if you were made fun of for liking video games, or for having glasses, or for reading lots of books, or for being black, or being gay, or for a twitch in your eye or anything. That is never an excuse for being an asshole to an entire group of people. That is part of becoming a well-adjusted adult--dealing with your past and not letting it affect your behavior.

If your past is so painful that you compulsively resent complete strangers for it, then you should be seeing a therapist. Not going to conventions and ragging on millennials who resemble the kids who picked on you when you were in gradeschool.

Gorrath:

Tono Makt:

I'm pretty confident in my assertion of how jocks generally see women. Sure there are exceptions - me, for example. Though I'm not a positive exception because I didn't give a damn about anyone in high school, male or female. I wanted no ties and I have no ties. (You might argue that I was at least as bad as the jocks who saw women as disposable since I saw what was going on and didn't even try to put a stop to it. I don't think I could reasonably argue against that particular point.)

What you are doing is generalizing based on your personal experiences, which is a component of prejudice. It may even be true that 'most' jocks act in a certain way, but I certainly didn't see it that way. For as many times as I saw 'jocks' manipulating girls, I saw girls doing the exact same thing. We are, all of us, colored by our experiences and so what you saw as the norm for jocks I saw as the norm for high school, except where it wasn't true. I had a friend who juggled girls like crazy and he was part of the 'out' crowd, a gamer and such though 'goth' was his own identifier. I also had a friend who was a quarterback, got his heart broken by a girl who was two-timing him.

So, while your observations are what they are, your generalizations are still not justified. I don't even mean this as a condemnation, just as a point of academics. I would warn that such generalizations can be very harmful though, and, perhaps with some irony, part of the cause of the fake gamer girl problem itself.

Dude... do you see the irony of your own statements here? You're warning ME about my generalizations being harmful while you are pushing an outlier and applying it as a generalization to fake gamer girls? You're talking a pair of predators and applying what they've done to your friend and using it as a way of describing fake gamer girls in general?

I'd say you're doing far more harm than I am, pushing your outlier the way you are.

I am constantly bewildered by people, in in this VERY THREAD, whining about the "fake geek girl" phenomenon. It's precisely the same mindset as people who don't believe in marriage equality because of some twisted hatred of gay people, which they disguise in a bizarre claim that other people enjoying the things that they do "improperly" is somehow going to ruin their own enjoyment of it. You know who else talked about keeping certain groups "pure?"

Even if fake geek girls do exist, wouldn't you rather people be pretending to be (and therefor admiring) a part of geek culture than say, sports culture or, I don't know, literally ANYTHING ELSE!? If you are a real geek, why the hell would you have a problem with anyone else acting geeky? REAL geeks embrace geekiness in whatever form. It's the total rejection of geekdom that is the enemy. If you have to have an enemy for some reason, that's it right there.

Did someone trick you? That means you're stupid and you need to improve yourself, not that you need to start a witch hunt.

I will never understand the boys club mentality. Why the hell wouldn't you want to be surrounded by as many women as possible? Are you gay? STILL NOT AN EXCUSE. Gay men love women! They have common ground! This has been proven by science!

In fact, the only person who I've met who I considered deceitful in their authenticity as a geek was a dude. And I can't even really judge him, because who the fuck am I to place judgement on another person?

*grumble grumble assholes grumble grumble*

On a less ranty note, ERMAGERD WIL WERTEN! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

This is a problem because people allow it to be one. They allow it to bother them. It's also a problem because they think it's a problem. I've yet to encounter a situation where someone has accused a girl to be a "fake geek girl". And even if I did...who gives a shit? Don't talk to them, don't associate with them, don't bother with them. Seems pretty damn simple.

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