Geek Girls Lambast Prejudice in Music Video

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Tono Makt:

Gorrath:

Tono Makt:

I'm pretty confident in my assertion of how jocks generally see women. Sure there are exceptions - me, for example. Though I'm not a positive exception because I didn't give a damn about anyone in high school, male or female. I wanted no ties and I have no ties. (You might argue that I was at least as bad as the jocks who saw women as disposable since I saw what was going on and didn't even try to put a stop to it. I don't think I could reasonably argue against that particular point.)

What you are doing is generalizing based on your personal experiences, which is a component of prejudice. It may even be true that 'most' jocks act in a certain way, but I certainly didn't see it that way. For as many times as I saw 'jocks' manipulating girls, I saw girls doing the exact same thing. We are, all of us, colored by our experiences and so what you saw as the norm for jocks I saw as the norm for high school, except where it wasn't true. I had a friend who juggled girls like crazy and he was part of the 'out' crowd, a gamer and such though 'goth' was his own identifier. I also had a friend who was a quarterback, got his heart broken by a girl who was two-timing him.

So, while your observations are what they are, your generalizations are still not justified. I don't even mean this as a condemnation, just as a point of academics. I would warn that such generalizations can be very harmful though, and, perhaps with some irony, part of the cause of the fake gamer girl problem itself.

Dude... do you see the irony of your own statements here? You're warning ME about my generalizations being harmful while you are pushing an outlier and applying it as a generalization to fake gamer girls? You're talking a pair of predators and applying what they've done to your friend and using it as a way of describing fake gamer girls in general?

I'd say you're doing far more harm than I am, pushing your outlier the way you are.

Except I am in no way saying that all fake gamer girls are predators or using predatory ones as some kind of standard either. There are various shades of this that goes on, from mere teasing for favors to out and out lying in relationships. My responses are tuned to the arguments that there are NO fake gamer girls or that fake gamer girls can do NO harm. The context of my responses is very important to interpreting them and at no point did I say that this represented a norm. What I did say in many of my responses is that girls who attend cons and such who don't have a great interest in the material are explicitly not a problem, but just because there are fake gamer girls that are not an issue does not mean that they either don't exist at all or that there is no harm associated with the lying and manipulation that does occur.

How, exactly, am I doing harm by rebutting the claim that A) Fake Gamer Girls do not exist or B) Lying and manipulation in this form are not a problem that helps to feed the larger issue?

Harry Mason:

Did someone trick you? That means you're stupid and you need to improve yourself, not that you need to start a witch hunt.

I've responded already in other posts to much of what you said here, but I wanted to quote this part specifically. This is exactly the victim blaming mentality that would not fly under any other circumstance. It is exactly the sort of thing that would take someone who has already been tricked and manipulated and do nothing at all to convince them that taking it out on every other gamer girl is wrong. Would you tell a woman who got abused in a time of emotional weakness that she was stupid and needed to improve herself?

I play lots of games with my usual group, but we add in friends of friends very often. I kinda end up being the only girl very often and our warframe clan seems to see that as a rarity aswell. does that mean I ever had to prove that im a geek or nerd?
nope, not a single time. probably also because i dont make a thing of it. girls play games and thats it. its no more special than guys playing games.
I have also not encountered a game that I couldnt play cause of my gender...(just a bunch I do not want to play)

I dont really care for fake geeks. people thing 'gangsters' are cool and try to be that. some people fake a british accent to sound more distinguished. today being nerdy has got some flair that some people like (that cute nerd girl thing) and some folks fake that.
just accept that some people only take on stuff that they think is cool instead of going for their own interessts (if they are interessted in attaching to other groups... thats weird in itself).

Who cares if people fake being nerds or geeks, it doesnt damage real nerds and geeks in the least.
like is there some room full of nerd gold around that they try to get into? what are some folks so affraid to lose because of 'fake' nerds?

Lesson, jerks will be jerks regardless of social group, skin color, gender, sexuality, etc:

Still, when I was young the typical geek was hard to find here in Brazil (still is). Girl geeks were either ultra rare or very well hidden.

matthew_lane:

Except its not. Its like if i walked around calling my self a heart surgeon because i spent an afternoon on wikipedia looking up heart surgery. Or me telling you that i'm a formula one racer, when in truth i don't even have a learners permit.

Heck if i pretended to be a thing based on what i've looked up on wikipedia, i'd be a well hung billionaire, astronaut, superhero, super spy, ninja, race car driver, astro mechanic, brown coat, jedi.... But i'm not.

Because someone who looks something up on wikipedia doesn't suddenly become either an expert or a fanatic & thats what geekdom is. Its not just knowing a thing, its being lovingly obsessive about it. Geekdom is not a state of passing awareness, its a state of excellence, a state of blissful self obsession.

Thats the problem with information for this generation: Its so easily accessible, that people mistake having read a wiki page for the same thing as experience & expertise.

Thats a poor argument. Im a heart surgeon after years f training when im paid to operate on heart patients. Easy.

But geek? Really? Its such a broard term. I play a nieche GW board game, like super hero films, have read the odd graphic novel and play (strictly none mmo) video games. Ive also never had any issues with girls or partying. Am athletic and like sport. Does this make me a geek?

It doesnt matter because im not insecure. I dont have to out geek anyone else or prove my cred. We all have interests and if i have a passing interest in a sub culture it doesnt matter if im not as hardcore as the next person unless you are a tool.

Thats why labelling someone a fake gamer girl is the mark of an insecure elitist tool.

Put it anotherway. I train mma 3 times week and have been training for the past 15 years. I wouldnt say someones not a martial artist or into mma because they train once a week and are over weight... because im not an insecure elitist tool.

People get to hung up on labels and there is no need. Enjoy your thing and dont mind what other people do unleww theyre skinning live kittens.

Gorrath:

Harry Mason:

Did someone trick you? That means you're stupid and you need to improve yourself, not that you need to start a witch hunt.

I've responded already in other posts to much of what you said here, but I wanted to quote this part specifically. This is exactly the victim blaming mentality that would not fly under any other circumstance. It is exactly the sort of thing that would take someone who has already been tricked and manipulated and do nothing at all to convince them that taking it out on every other gamer girl is wrong. Would you tell a woman who got abused in a time of emotional weakness that she was stupid and needed to improve herself?

Comparing a woman being abused to someone getting butthurt over thinking someone is geeky who isn't is psychotic.

I know that sentence sounds harsh, but examining the words without context is supremely silly. This is not rape mentality.

This is more akin to someone clicking on a "MEET SINGLE HOTTIES NOW!" link on a website and then flying into a rage when it asks for their credit card number. This doesn't mean it's time to point and laugh at them, lord no, but it's learning time for them, and continuing to click on the link or villainizing every link on the internet is something that shouldn't be payed any heed or encouraged in any way.

Sometimes people do stupid things and have stupid opinions. It's both Ok, and a chance for them to improve themselves. Nothing more.

And this isn't excusing people who set out with the express purpose of deceiving someone else. They are buttholes and should be treated as such. But this just isn't the case with the fake geek girl phenomenon. None of these chicks are setting out with the express purpose of deceiving any boys. These angry dudes are deceiving themselves. It's time for them to get a clue.

The term "geek girl" makes me cringe so much.

I absolutely love what this video stands for, but they're going about it the wrong way.
If they have nothing to prove, why are they making a video? If you're a geek at heart you don't need to hold up signs saying that you are because just talking to them will be proof enough.
If someone calls you a fake geek girl even after you've proved you have an interest in things that are considered nerdy, they're a prick.

I do seem to find the beautiful, more attractive women get accused of being fake a LOT more. Like people can't grasp the concept that good looking women can have an array of hobbies. Perhaps that is why I've never been accused of being fake, I don't have model-like beauty that makes people think you're lying. Those girls just typically pose with controllers over their boobs and licking PSPs then get a job where they look dead behind the eyes while they read something off a script to gamers.

Some guys have been surprised when I start talking about games or such but I don't take offence from it. Why should I? Even the most open minded people will get taken aback when they get to know someone better. Most people have been taught gender roles since childhood and it's hard to completely diminish those kind of thoughts.

If someone ever did accuse me of being fake, I'd think fuck sod (whoops, wrong use of word) them. I might not be into Superman as much as Batman, I might prefer Trek to Wars and I'd rather play an RPG than COD but not everyone's idea of geeky will match up.

If someone goes around accusing others of being fake because they dare show an interest in what they like, are they worth the time of the day? They seem to have some unsettled issues going on IMO.

Harry Mason:

Gorrath:

Harry Mason:

Did someone trick you? That means you're stupid and you need to improve yourself, not that you need to start a witch hunt.

I've responded already in other posts to much of what you said here, but I wanted to quote this part specifically. This is exactly the victim blaming mentality that would not fly under any other circumstance. It is exactly the sort of thing that would take someone who has already been tricked and manipulated and do nothing at all to convince them that taking it out on every other gamer girl is wrong. Would you tell a woman who got abused in a time of emotional weakness that she was stupid and needed to improve herself?

Comparing a woman being abused to someone getting butthurt over thinking someone is geeky who isn't is psychotic.

I know that sentence sounds harsh, but examining the words without context is supremely silly. This is not rape mentality.

This is more akin to someone clicking on a "MEET SINGLE HOTTIES NOW!" link on a website and then flying into a rage when it asks for their credit card number. This doesn't mean it's time to point and laugh at them, lord no, but it's learning time for them, and continuing to click on the link or villainizing every link on the internet is something that shouldn't be payed any heed or encouraged in any way.

Sometimes people do stupid things and have stupid opinions. It's both Ok, and a chance for them to improve themselves. Nothing more.

And this isn't excusing people who set out with the express purpose of deceiving someone else. They are buttholes and should be treated as such. But this just isn't the case with the fake geek girl phenomenon. None of these chicks are setting out with the express purpose of deceiving any boys. These angry dudes are deceiving themselves. It's time for them to get a clue.

Well all I can say to that is that I've already told an anecdote where a friend of mine fell victim to exactly what you're saying does not happen. Some of them do set out with the express purpose of deceit for gain in mind and blaming the guy who falls victim to it isn't a good thing to do. I've posted the example in this thread already, but it bares repeating. If a man attended functions of a primarily female dominated hobby with the specific intent to seek out and abuse emotionally vulnerable women, I don't think we'd be calling the women he took advantage of 'stupid' nor would we be blaming her so viciously for her future mistrust of other men who might attend such functions. While this is no more common in female dominated hobbies as it is male ones (and geekdom is less and less male dominated)it is something that happens and the ramifications of it are bad.

Gorrath:

Tono Makt:

Gorrath:

What you are doing is generalizing based on your personal experiences, which is a component of prejudice. It may even be true that 'most' jocks act in a certain way, but I certainly didn't see it that way. For as many times as I saw 'jocks' manipulating girls, I saw girls doing the exact same thing. We are, all of us, colored by our experiences and so what you saw as the norm for jocks I saw as the norm for high school, except where it wasn't true. I had a friend who juggled girls like crazy and he was part of the 'out' crowd, a gamer and such though 'goth' was his own identifier. I also had a friend who was a quarterback, got his heart broken by a girl who was two-timing him.

So, while your observations are what they are, your generalizations are still not justified. I don't even mean this as a condemnation, just as a point of academics. I would warn that such generalizations can be very harmful though, and, perhaps with some irony, part of the cause of the fake gamer girl problem itself.

Dude... do you see the irony of your own statements here? You're warning ME about my generalizations being harmful while you are pushing an outlier and applying it as a generalization to fake gamer girls? You're talking a pair of predators and applying what they've done to your friend and using it as a way of describing fake gamer girls in general?

I'd say you're doing far more harm than I am, pushing your outlier the way you are.

Except I am in no way saying that all fake gamer girls are predators or using predatory ones as some kind of standard either. There are various shades of this that goes on, from mere teasing for favors to out and out lying in relationships. My responses are tuned to the arguments that there are NO fake gamer girls or that fake gamer girls can do NO harm. The context of my responses is very important to interpreting them and at no point did I say that this represented a norm. What I did say in many of my responses is that girls who attend cons and such who don't have a great interest in the material are explicitly not a problem, but just because there are fake gamer girls that are not an issue does not mean that they either don't exist at all or that there is no harm associated with the lying and manipulation that does occur.

If you want to rag on me about my generalizations about jocks, then accept that you're going to get ragged on by your extreme examples of emotional manipulation and predation and how you're tying that into the whole fake gamer girl discussion. And how you're attaching "lying" and "emotional manipulation" - two staunchly negative concepts - to the fake gamer girls in the discussion, even if you do try to play it off as starting from what you may see as a fairly benign end of the spectrum. As referenced below:

...from mere teasing for favors to out and out lying in relationships...

What exactly are the "favours" and what exactly is the "mere teasing"? I'm hoping you aren't saying that the shy 18yr old dressed up as Rikku is "merely teasing" people by dressing up as Rikku, and that the "favours" she's teasing out are the appreciative looks of the geeks who appreciate a good looking female form, because that would seriously diminish both the implications of "teasing" and "favours", and could easily be applied to any and all women everywhere who are dressing in any sort of sexy way.

It seems like you're saying that a woman dressing up in a costume to appeal to gamers is a negative thing - it is a form of lying and of emotional manipulation. As if somehow this diminishes the gamers, that it takes something from us.

How, exactly, am I doing harm by rebutting the claim that A) Gamer girls do not exist or B) Lying and manipulation in this form are a problem that helps to feed the larger issue?

Because you've been manipulating this discussion by using an extreme case as an example of the harm that lying and emotional manipulation can cause, then by going back and trying to say it's separate from the issue at hand. You use the example of your friend being victimized by a pair of predators. Then you're trying to use the example of a guy going to knitting circles and the like solely to find lonely women to victimize for sex, and asking how we would feel about that. Another extreme example. In both cases it is the predator taking something tangible (money, gifts) or something intimate and potentially dangerous (sex; pregnancy and STI's being two of the dangers), where the victim is left diminished as a goal of the predator. And you're using those examples in a discussion about fake gamer girls, as if they're actually related to the shy 18yr old who dresses up as Rikku so she can feel sexy for a day, describing much of what that shy 18yr old is doing in negative terms but then trying to come back and say that she's not who you're talking about even though she is a main focus of the debate.

In essence you are claiming to be talking about two phenomena - fake gamer girls and manipulative people preying on weaker people - in the same discussion, then trying to say that they are explicitly different things and should not be connected in any way. You're holding up two women who preyed upon a friend of yours as Exhibit A about the dangers of emotional manipulation and lying, then saying that it exists within the Fake Gamer Girls, but not all fake gamer girls, with very little to differentiate the fake gamer girls you are saying are explicitly not a problem to the ones who are a problem. You're using general terms like "mere teasing" and "favours" then letting them sit out there with the examples of your friend being preyed on financially, and a man hypothetically preying on women sexually, and then standing back and washing your hands of anyone connecting the two.

Gorrath:

Harry Mason:

Gorrath:

I've responded already in other posts to much of what you said here, but I wanted to quote this part specifically. This is exactly the victim blaming mentality that would not fly under any other circumstance. It is exactly the sort of thing that would take someone who has already been tricked and manipulated and do nothing at all to convince them that taking it out on every other gamer girl is wrong. Would you tell a woman who got abused in a time of emotional weakness that she was stupid and needed to improve herself?

Comparing a woman being abused to someone getting butthurt over thinking someone is geeky who isn't is psychotic.

I know that sentence sounds harsh, but examining the words without context is supremely silly. This is not rape mentality.

This is more akin to someone clicking on a "MEET SINGLE HOTTIES NOW!" link on a website and then flying into a rage when it asks for their credit card number. This doesn't mean it's time to point and laugh at them, lord no, but it's learning time for them, and continuing to click on the link or villainizing every link on the internet is something that shouldn't be payed any heed or encouraged in any way.

Sometimes people do stupid things and have stupid opinions. It's both Ok, and a chance for them to improve themselves. Nothing more.

And this isn't excusing people who set out with the express purpose of deceiving someone else. They are buttholes and should be treated as such. But this just isn't the case with the fake geek girl phenomenon. None of these chicks are setting out with the express purpose of deceiving any boys. These angry dudes are deceiving themselves. It's time for them to get a clue.

Well all I can say to that is that I've already told an anecdote where a friend of mine fell victim to exactly what you're saying does not happen. Some of them do set out with the express purpose of deceit for gain in mind and blaming the guy who falls victim to it isn't a good thing to do. I've posted the example in this thread already, but it bares repeating. If a man attended functions of a primarily female dominated hobby with the specific intent to seek out and abuse emotionally vulnerable women, I don't think we'd be calling the women he took advantage of 'stupid' nor would we be blaming her so viciously for her future mistrust of other men who might attend such functions. While this is no more common in female dominated hobbies as it is male ones (and geekdom is less and less male dominated)it is something that happens and the ramifications of it are bad.

And here is where you start to equate ALL fake gamer girls to the predators which victimized your friend, and start to make comparisons between fake gamer girls and sexual predators - perhaps even rapists, as you say "to seek out and abuse emotionally vulnerable women", which isn't a long stretch from "rape".

Trying to root out "fake geek girls" is a waste of time. more often than not you're doing more harm than good by wrongfully blaming people for not being "passionate" enough...as if we need to all be on 'terrorist-level-loyalty' to win the badge of geekness.

If someone is pretending to like something just to look popular, or to seek approval in others...that's their own insecurity they have to deal with. Don't waste your time trying to pick them out and put them on trial. If anything, indulge them. if they have genuine interest in talking about comics, games and all things geeky, they'll want to know more! great!
If they don't want to know more, then they'll stop talking. great!

I do not have a problem with fake geek girls.... I have a problem with fake geeks. SURPRISE they come in both genders!!!!!!!

I remember people getting the crap kicked out of them for being geeks.... What memo did I miss that said we are the dominate subculture all the sudden, and ANYONE should try to fake their way in?

Tono Makt:

Gorrath:

Tono Makt:

Dude... do you see the irony of your own statements here? You're warning ME about my generalizations being harmful while you are pushing an outlier and applying it as a generalization to fake gamer girls? You're talking a pair of predators and applying what they've done to your friend and using it as a way of describing fake gamer girls in general?

I'd say you're doing far more harm than I am, pushing your outlier the way you are.

Except I am in no way saying that all fake gamer girls are predators or using predatory ones as some kind of standard either. There are various shades of this that goes on, from mere teasing for favors to out and out lying in relationships. My responses are tuned to the arguments that there are NO fake gamer girls or that fake gamer girls can do NO harm. The context of my responses is very important to interpreting them and at no point did I say that this represented a norm. What I did say in many of my responses is that girls who attend cons and such who don't have a great interest in the material are explicitly not a problem, but just because there are fake gamer girls that are not an issue does not mean that they either don't exist at all or that there is no harm associated with the lying and manipulation that does occur.

If you want to rag on me about my generalizations about jocks, then accept that you're going to get ragged on by your extreme examples of emotional manipulation and predation and how you're tying that into the whole fake gamer girl discussion. And how you're attaching "lying" and "emotional manipulation" - two staunchly negative concepts - to the fake gamer girls in the discussion, even if you do try to play it off as starting from what you may see as a fairly benign end of the spectrum. As referenced below:

...from mere teasing for favors to out and out lying in relationships...

What exactly are the "favours" and what exactly is the "mere teasing"? I'm hoping you aren't saying that the shy 18yr old dressed up as Rikku is "merely teasing" people by dressing up as Rikku, and that the "favours" she's teasing out are the appreciative looks of the geeks who appreciate a good looking female form, because that would seriously diminish both the implications of "teasing" and "favours", and could easily be applied to any and all women everywhere who are dressing in any sort of sexy way.

It seems like you're saying that a woman dressing up in a costume to appeal to gamers is a negative thing - it is a form of lying and of emotional manipulation. As if somehow this diminishes the gamers, that it takes something from us.

How, exactly, am I doing harm by rebutting the claim that A) Gamer girls do not exist or B) Lying and manipulation in this form are a problem that helps to feed the larger issue?

Because you've been manipulating this discussion by using an extreme case as an example of the harm that lying and emotional manipulation can cause, then by going back and trying to say it's separate from the issue at hand. You use the example of your friend being victimized by a pair of predators. Then you're trying to use the example of a guy going to knitting circles and the like solely to find lonely women to victimize for sex, and asking how we would feel about that. Another extreme example. In both cases it is the predator taking something tangible (money, gifts) or something intimate and potentially dangerous (sex; pregnancy and STI's being two of the dangers), where the victim is left diminished as a goal of the predator. And you're using those examples in a discussion about fake gamer girls, as if they're actually related to the shy 18yr old who dresses up as Rikku so she can feel sexy for a day, describing much of what that shy 18yr old is doing in negative terms but then trying to come back and say that she's not who you're talking about even though she is a main focus of the debate.

In essence you are claiming to be talking about two phenomena - fake gamer girls and manipulative people preying on weaker people - in the same discussion, then trying to say that they are explicitly different things and should not be connected in any way. You're holding up two women who preyed upon a friend of yours as Exhibit A about the dangers of emotional manipulation and lying, then saying that it exists within the Fake Gamer Girls, but not all fake gamer girls, with very little to differentiate the fake gamer girls you are saying are explicitly not a problem to the ones who are a problem. You're using general terms like "mere teasing" and "favours" then letting them sit out there with the examples of your friend being preyed on financially, and a man hypothetically preying on women sexually, and then standing back and washing your hands of anyone connecting the two.

If you re-read some of my posts, I made the difference quite clear. That girl dressing up how she likes? Not a problem, at all, and anyone saying it is is a problem themselves. That girl who goes to cons because her friends like the stuff but she isn't really into it? Not at all a problem, not in the least, and I've already said that several, several times so please quit saying that I have not made a differentiation. I have and if I need to be more clear about it I will.

As for what 'teasing' for 'favors' constitutes I'm am referencing the not as uncommon act of a girl using her gender to gain benefits from lonely guys, whether that be financial or not. As has already been pointed out in this very thread, twitch is full of this kind of stuff and it is done by more than one gender, but it does happen. The reason I used extreme examples was in response to an extreme claim, that NO fake gamer girls exist or that NO harm can come of the act or practice, both of which are blatantly false as illustrated.

I am not comparing Twitch and saying it is that same as the emotional and financial manipulation that my friend experienced either, but that there is a broad spectrum of manipulation that can occur from relatively minor things to what he experienced. I never said anything about that girl who likes to dress up as Rikku at cons and in fact I specifically stated that this was NOT what I was talking about. I don't know how much more clear I can be than that. The shy 18 yr old in Rikku cosplay has nothing, at all, whatsoever to do with anything I've said.

I also never said that the lying and manipulation of guys like my friend is not connected to the ostricization of girls at cons. In actuality, I made exactly the opposite claim, that the two things are very linked. I've been making that claim from the beginning, so I have no idea where you've gotten this idea that I am claiming they are separate issues. They are not separate issues, that is the point. Part of this ostricization that occurs in social geek centric places stems, in part, from feelings of previous hurt and betrayal some males have felt when dealing with fake gamer girls in their past who have used a mix of pretense about their hobby and emotional manipulation in order to extract benefits from them. In some cases, these feelings of hurt are unjustified or the guy is simply being a dick. In other cases, these feelings of hurt are very justified, but by transposing that emotional baggage onto all girls is still wrong.

stonemaskstoryteller:
Trying to root out "fake geek girls" is a waste of time. more often than not you're doing more harm than good by wrongfully blaming people for not being "passionate" enough...as if we need to all be on 'terrorist-level-loyalty' to win the badge of geekness.

If someone is pretending to like something just to look popular, or to seek approval in others...that's their own insecurity they have to deal with. Don't waste your time trying to pick them out and put them on trial. If anything, indulge them. if they have genuine interest in talking about comics, games and all things geeky, they'll want to know more! great!
If they don't want to know more, then they'll stop talking. great!

For the most part however, we AREN'T seeking them out. They make themselves apparent. They are the people who go into a game and immediately proclaim they are women, expecting special treatment. For the most part men aren't going to go out of their way to find girl gamers in a game. When I join a server or see other people join a server, no one asks "Okay. Who here is a guy and who is a girl".

And if you DO meet someone that does that, then please don't indulge them because they are looking for attention too.

I think this sums it up well enough. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44AmqL5tWCM

There is also another video from the same channel, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kSOD6EsEUs, this one however sums up how some of the "Geek" Crowd reacts to women, when they have little to no interaction with them either due to low confidence, fear of being shot down.

You would be kind of hard pressed to find someone that wants to remove someone else from gaming, the majority of gamers just want to play their games.

The same kind of people that fall into this crowd are the braggers, the kind of people that lie to make themselves sound more impressive, etc. The majority of us don't care what race, gender or what have you, many of us don't care about your private life. UNLESS of course you are on say a privately hosted server and you have an established community, in which case it is more acceptable to start talking about your life once you have established yourself in that community.

Tono Makt:

And here is where you start to equate ALL fake gamer girls to the predators which victimized your friend, and start to make comparisons between fake gamer girls and sexual predators - perhaps even rapists, as you say "to seek out and abuse emotionally vulnerable women", which isn't a long stretch from "rape".

And here is where you claim I am equating all fake girl gamers with predators, despite having on multiple occasions said that they are not all the same. See that word some that I used? It does not mean all, I do not mean it to mean all, I do not want anyone to think the word some means all and why you insist on telling me that when I use the word some, I mean all, I do not understand. Some does not mean all, some means some, an unquantified some because none of us have any statistical backing to do any quantification. All is a quantification, one I am not making at all, in any way, either real or implied.

Also, I've said not one thing about rape anywhere and you are getting closer and closer to cramming words in my mouth, which I do not appreciate at all. I would like to remain perfectly civil and would like to continue this talk with you, but if you continue to insist on misrepresenting my claims, which maybe you don't mean to do, or putting words in my mouth, I am afraid I am going to have to break things off. I have no interest in engaging with that sort of thing. I am sorry if I am misreading your intent, but its seems to be striking closer and closer to that.

RJ 17:

Easton Dark:
Uh... I don't think the term 'fake geek girl' means that women can't be geeks. It's about how some would lie about being fans of geeky things to be more popular, right?

So... uh... yeah.

They're lying so they can be more popular......around "geeks and nerds"...?

Sorry, but that statement just really doesn't make much sense at all.

Well, there's lots of us now. Like, millions to billions. And our stuff is getting into the mainstream. It's pretty tempting to be popular to even just a few people, let alone the thousands you could meet at something like comicon.

Andy of Comix Inc:

Yes, but that it doesn't exist for men, too, is why it's worrying. Or is there "fake geek men" we have to watch out for, too? And if there are - why don't people gun for them, too? It's probably cos most of the people shouting out against "fake geek girls" are insecure little straight fellas, eh.

I agree. And there sure are fake geek boys*, but no geek guys want to fuck them and make them their waifu.

Easton Dark:

RJ 17:

Easton Dark:
Uh... I don't think the term 'fake geek girl' means that women can't be geeks. It's about how some would lie about being fans of geeky things to be more popular, right?

So... uh... yeah.

They're lying so they can be more popular......around "geeks and nerds"...?

Sorry, but that statement just really doesn't make much sense at all.

Well, there's lots of us now. Like, millions to billions. And our stuff is getting into the mainstream. It's pretty tempting to be popular to even just a few people, let alone the thousands you could meet at something like comicon.

Which is...kinda what the rest of my post that you snipped out was about.... :P

RJ 17:
Which is...kinda what the rest of my post that you snipped out was about.... :P

Eh? You started talking about booth babes. I 'aint talkin' 'bout no booth babes.

I don't think they should be faulted one bit. Like you said, it's their job. I work at a library, and I don't read any books. I don't feel like I'm living a lie.

It took me awhile to figure out that the music video itself was lambasting prejudice.

I kept thinking that the music video was itself prejudiced and that geek girls were complaining about it somehow.

StewShearer:

matthew_lane:
"Fake Geek Girl Concept Destroyed by Music Video"

/facepalm.

No its not. All you've done is demonstrated that these particular women have some claim to geekdom. You've not demonstrated that fake geek girls don't exist, you've only demonstrated that real geek girls exist.

That's like creationist proving creationism, by trying to disprove evolution. Disproving one positive assertion is not evidence for a competing positive assertion.

The argument isn't that real geek girls don't exist, its that there are girls out there who are faking being geeks: The basics of logic folks. An again i am disappointed in the obvious bias shown by Escapist writers.

In hindsight, I agree that "destroyed" is too strong a wording. I tweaked it to be a bit more subtle.

Except now I read the headline to mean that the music video in question was the thing being prejudiced, and that geek girls were getting rightly pissed. Good to see that's not the case though!

I like the video (also the tiny ginger child was extremely adorable).

It seems like there are two separate issues here that people are confounding, and just picking whichever one appeals most to them.

A) The assumption that no girl can be interested/competent at 'geeky' things. Thankfully I suspect this one is on its way out.
Ex: Some otherwise friendly idiot at a used game store asked if I like to play games, "because I know some girls just like to watch other people play."

B) The cynical commercialism of the shill: people pretending to be something they aren't, or interested in something they don't care about, in order to gain attention or make a profit. Often paired with sex appeal, especially if it's for attention.
Ex: Arugably, a lot of the whole 'hired booth babes' strategy falls here. It's their job to look sexy in whatever costume is handed to them to attract an audience, which theoretically shouldn't be the sole draw of non-porn subject matter.

Yuuki:

StewShearer:
We're dumbfounded to tell you how the concept came to be, but somehow a bunch of people under the nerd umbrella decided that one of the pre-requisites for liking geeky things was the possession of a dangly bit between your legs.

If you're dumbfounded as to how the concept came to be, then don't take a wild (and completely wrong) guess at how the concept came to be. Really.

The whole anger against "fake geek girls" started when overly beautiful/makeup-wearing video blogging females who got most of their views thanks to what they put on display (often reffered to as "cam whores") started putting on glasses and claiming to be geeks. They brag about how much they own at CoD/Halo even though they've never even held a fucking controller, throw around technical terms which they have no clue about. All because being a geek has become fashionable over recent years, it's no longer something the cool kids get to shun and sneer at.

That's why females who were genuine geeks started getting hit by criticism, thanks to truly-fake "cam-whore" geek girls who are only doing it to draw attention. Yes it's unfair, yes it's stupid, yes it needs to end, but now you know why it came to be.

image

Just keep in mind that nothing angers a geek more than someone who pretends to be a geek, or someone who throws around half-baked misinformation claiming to be correct. Gender is largely irrelevant to geek culture, it's more about elitism than anything else.

Why is this such a complicated thing to understand. I concede that Women have been getting shafted and that it needs to end. I concede that the whole debacle is as pointless as it is stupid, but why in the name of Raisin Bran Oatmeal is it so hard to understand the gist of what you said. It's as if everyone(and i hate to say it but a large majority of the Escapist Staff especially) is so quick to pick up thine Sword and Shield and be a White Knight every time this happens that they're starting to forget which Lizard is the TRUE Dragon. Guys it's as simple as this WE DO NOT LIKE ATTENTION WHORES. Be it Male or Female, we don't care wht you have between your legs we only care about legitimate conversations on Geekdom. You know what you're talking about? Then it won't matter what you are, i could be talking about The Romance Of Three Kingdoms with a dog and it would be meaningless as long as he knew more than what he's learned from Dynasty Warriors. Between The Escapists double Witch Hunt on Sexism in Games and Fake Gamer Girls i'm becoming progressively burned out. Every time i stumble upon another Jimquistion calling forth the cry of Anita Sarkessian i start foaming at the mouth. It's gotten so bad in general that mentioning A.S. around the Escapist Forums causes a bigger Nuclear Fallout than freaking Chernobyl!

Sir. Jasper Colinwell:

Yuuki:

StewShearer:
We're dumbfounded to tell you how the concept came to be, but somehow a bunch of people under the nerd umbrella decided that one of the pre-requisites for liking geeky things was the possession of a dangly bit between your legs.

If you're dumbfounded as to how the concept came to be, then don't take a wild (and completely wrong) guess at how the concept came to be. Really.

The whole anger against "fake geek girls" started when overly beautiful/makeup-wearing video blogging females who got most of their views thanks to what they put on display (often reffered to as "cam whores") started putting on glasses and claiming to be geeks. They brag about how much they own at CoD/Halo even though they've never even held a fucking controller, throw around technical terms which they have no clue about. All because being a geek has become fashionable over recent years, it's no longer something the cool kids get to shun and sneer at.

That's why females who were genuine geeks started getting hit by criticism, thanks to truly-fake "cam-whore" geek girls who are only doing it to draw attention. Yes it's unfair, yes it's stupid, yes it needs to end, but now you know why it came to be.

image

Just keep in mind that nothing angers a geek more than someone who pretends to be a geek, or someone who throws around half-baked misinformation claiming to be correct. Gender is largely irrelevant to geek culture, it's more about elitism than anything else.

Why is this such a complicated thing to understand. I concede that Women have been getting shafted and that it needs to end. I concede that the whole debacle is as pointless as it is stupid, but why in the name of Raisin Bran Oatmeal is it so hard to understand the gist of what you said. It's as if everyone(and i hate to say it but a large majority of the Escapist Staff especially) is so quick to pick up thine Sword and Shield and be a White Knight every time this happens that they're starting to forget which Lizard is the TRUE Dragon. Guys it's as simple as this WE DO NOT LIKE ATTENTION WHORES. Be it Male or Female, we don't care wht you have between your legs we only care about legitimate conversations on Geekdom. You know what you're talking about? Then it won't matter what you are, i could be talking about The Romance Of Three Kingdoms with a dog and it would be meaningless as long as he knew more than what he's learned from Dynasty Warriors. Between The Escapists double Witch Hunt on Sexism in Games and Fake Gamer Girls i'm becoming progressively burned out. Every time i stumble upon another Jimquistion calling forth the cry of Anita Sarkessian i start foaming at the mouth. It's gotten so bad in general that mentioning A.S. around the Escapist Forums causes a bigger Nuclear Fallout than freaking Chernobyl!

Yea. I'm getting kind of tired of the Gender War too. I don't really know what people expect now, you can't please everyone, so eventually it will boil down to "Well, We want what we want so everyone who doesn't want it can go suck it."

Hey, before the internet and youtube became a thing, I remember getting harassed at video game stores and at comic book stores for being female and apparently faking because I had yet to read every single copy of spiderman or played every single final fantasy or watched every episode of Star Trek. I even remember preordering Fable 2 and the guy at gamestop asked me if I was sure I wanted to play that and he suggested an M rated game might be too much for me at 21 years old. I don't even dress like a proper female apparently. I actually get guys telling me if I would wear makeup more often I'd be so much prettier, if I styled my hair I'd get a boyfriend. This is from actual geeky guys who probably haven't shaved in months, completely unsolicited because I am not looking for a date. I'm just looking to discuss why Mass Effect 3 sucked so much due to bad story telling, destroyed characters, and lore breaking plot holes. "Hey you know, if you would wear your hair down..."

Don't act like these women in the video are making stuff up and drawing attention to something that isn't a big deal. I've been experiencing this crap since I was four years old and had to sneak into my teenage uncles room to play his Super Nintendo, because according to him I was a girl and should be playing with dolls.

It's great to hear there are some women out there, that at most experience, wow you're a girl who plays games! But my experience is that I still get kicked out of playing multiplayer games when it's discovered I'm female moments after joining a room, before I even open my mouth and say anything even. I still get driven out of games by unrelenting harassment. I still get questioned about obscure details in game/movies/comics. Any woman that hasn't even experienced any of this, I consider her lucky as hell to have found a group of swell guys to hang out with. The geek gods have blessed her and given her a special cloak of acceptance amongst male geeks, and I wish that cloak could be shared.

cthulhuspawn82:

cthulhuspawn82:
I know that the "fake geek girl" insult is usually thrown at overly attractive girls who guys couldn't possibly believe are into geeky things. I feel like such a jerk thinking that a small few of the girls in this video are fooling themselves into believing they are perceived like that. I hate sounding mean, but I cant help thinking someone needs to put a hand on their shoulder and say, "Oh sweetie, nobody is doubting "your" geek cred".

Ok, quoting myself here to try an alleviate the potential flamestorm because I swear the video changed after I watched it. I will swear to anything that the first time I watched, and posted, there were many dorky/homely looking girls there, but every time I rewatch I see a larger percentage of beautiful girls.

I still stick by my first post though. I think when we describe fake geek girls as, "Attractive women, looking for attention." some girls are partially pleased to be perceived that way. Not because of the "seeking attention" part but because of the "attractive" part. And I do genuinely feel bad that some girls might fool themselves into thinking thats how they are perceived.

But the weird disconnect in this whole thing is does the fact that they are attractive and enjoy a bit of exibitionist attention in any way impact whether or not they actually enjoy what we consider to be geeky? Someone pointed out how lots of actresses will use cons fr attention. Great point, but so what? It makes them no different then any other vendor at a con. Is the guy making swords a fake geek? The better question is are these people enjoying themselves or is it just a job to them? And guess what, people who like acting enjoy playing dress up and playing characters. And geeky stuff lets them go hog wild in ways that most other things don't allow. This is just as much an expression of socially dysfunctional nerdlings as the rest of us tend to display. They just tend to be in a little bit better shape. And last time I looked cardio vascular health was not an absolute determinant of geekiness.

There is no real geek girl or fake geek girl. They're all in the same pool and its just a matter of depth. ( would this be a good moment to point out that both Milan Kunis and Henry Cavill, arguably two of the more attractive people on the planet, are known and confirmed Geeks, both being or having been avid MMO junkies among other things?)

Female feminist here: that was one of the shitiest songs I've ever heard. Seriously,not helping the cause. While people do need to know that most gamer girls are 'real' and shouldn't be subject to 'geek tests' anymore than males, the way this video gets the message across is kind of obnoxious.

So whats with the whole writing things out on large note cards and dropping them? Is that a thing now? I've seen it in several of these raw raw fuck the sexist videos but the whole thing is stupid to me. I'm just as much for being anti-sexist as the next nameless internet face but if the movement is going to be spearheaded by people doing annoying things, well wtf? I'm going to end up hating them too.
Fighting sexism in geek culture is great, the fanclub not so much.

This is totally needed, just look at all the men who were trying to keep women out of the SD comic con.

Why are we pretending this is a real issue? This is the result of a few over-reacting to trolls yelling "kitchen" comments and the like. A minority of assholes is no reason to crusade against a whole group of people and villify anyone who doesn't agree with them, and if any nerd doesn't agree with them or they're given a "woman hater" label, more kicking around, but now in hobbies they were using to escape this name-calling nonsense.

Women didn't suddenly appear in traditionally nerdy sub-cultures in the last 2-4 years, they've been a part of gaming, comics, table-top, roleplaying, etc, and in our circles of friends for 40 years or more. What about those thousands of women? Were big bad nerds keeping them down all these decades until some people started writing on cards in videos?

It also denies the fact geeks and nerds constantly blast each other over who's more "hardcore", especially on gaming forums. Everyone here knows that this isn't some gentleman's club that suddenly turns nasty when a woman joins in the discussion, arguing and accussaions over consoles and games or the wrong opinions about games gets you yelled at regardless of your gender. Women aren't special just because some occassional idiot gives them a hard time.

This is all getting blown out of proportion the more we let it go on, now posts and blogs are to the point that cons are super-dangerous for women to go to because creepy nerds may try to rape them, to the point insulting "creeper cards" were made:

Retrograde:

StewShearer:

That said, many women who are genuinely geeks tend to get caught up in the emergent assumption that women who profess a love of nerdy things must be faking it. There exists, for many, an unspoken litmus test that you have to pass to count as a nerd. Being a woman is, for some, seen as a disqualification. In essence, while some are truly (and stupidly) angered by the idea of a woman pretending to be a geek for attention, others act as though women being nerdy at all is something absurd

Where have you seen this thing that exists actually perpetrated?
What was the guys name that did this crap when you saw it in your life?
When you asked him what he was angry about what did he say?
What was the questions on this litmus test?

How are we to challenge these things without all the juicy deets?

It's not that I don't think you're in the same camp as everybody else that buys that line in that this is a thing you've never actually witnessed happen (but that everyone 'knows' 'happens' 'all the time')... Actually, I lied, that's exactly what I think. But to be fair to the well meaning people that perpetuate this stuff, nobody has tried to come up with some anecdotal crap, they're all earnestly straight forward in a 'oh yeah...' kind of way that they've never seen anything resembling what they're talking about.

When I was still a little girl in college, I decided to attend a tournament for a new fighting game that had come out. My husband(boyfriend then) and I signed up and then waited about 30 minutes for the bracket to be posted. We were really excited; turn out was really good for a local tournament: 70ish people! Then the bracket went up...

I was placed in the girlfriend bracket(that was it's actual name), which was located in the losers bracket. When I talked to the tournament organizer, he ignored me. Sad part is after winning the girlfriend bracket, my next five or so rounds were against people that should have gone out in round two and my first opponent was really good. She and I went right down to the wire, but she was eliminated in the first round(and since we started in losers, she was out.) I three stocked the first guy I played against without taking any damage and he made it to round 4.

Crap my husband was already better than me at that game, he didn't need a handicap. So there is your example, though I can't really give names since it was a collective. Think the organizer was a John. (Which helps so much, I know.)

OT: People lie...it's not gender specific. So I've never seen the point of thinking someone has a lack of integrity as they are walking up to me. I'd like to be judged on merit in competition and I don't rate people in normal conversation. In other words I don't test people while talking to them. Having drastically different views and likes can make for great conversation.

As for the, I think someone used the term cam-whores, I adore them. Most of them are fairly easy on the eyes, no matter which gender they are, but more importantly, the comments are pure gold. I once saw a guy donate $150 for a hello from the girl streaming. I'm chuckling thinking about it. To me, that man isn't a victim, he made a mistake and a very stupid one. If I went to a bar, got drunk and had sex with a guy, I would have made a mistake. I would have a lot of re-accessing of my life to do, just like the $150 hello man does. You live, you learn, and then you buy Loves(and hopefully you don't distrust an entire group of people based off just a few members.)

You know what, I'd even go so far as to defend the "fakers." A wise not-horse once said, "It is the actions which matter, not the Name it was done for." The "fakers" might be interested for different reasons than me but we are both still interested. They might know less than me about a given subject, but that just leaves them room to do some tangential learning. I know I've been against trying or doing something, only to discover I love it after going through the motions a bit.

Did it ever occur to anyone that anyone that has to test someones geek credentials is most likely a geek poser them selves?

There is no checklist or any bar that someone must meet, also there is no such thing as a geek, its an illusion, its nothing more than a slang insult some people applied to people who had hobbies that were less of the norm...that's it. I think a geek was actually a circus sideshow performer if I'm not mistaken.

Ive watched sci-fi since I can remember, I've played video games since before the game boy launched both consoles and PC, I started tabletop gaming with AD&D but I am not a geek because labels are stupid. I feel the second you label yourself as a geek you are officially a geek poser.

I don't see this video claiming to be about gender inequality in geekdom or fake geek girls. All I see is a boring video with a bunch of girls doing that lame "hold up a card" meme.

As for Star Wars, my friend Shanna makes Star Wars costumes & carves Star Wars props out of wood. I've seen her cosplay as Darth Maul & Boba Fett.

Spearmaster:
Did it ever occur to anyone that anyone that has to test someones geek credentials is most likely a geek poser them selves?

There is no checklist or any bar that someone must meet, also there is no such thing as a geek, its an illusion, its nothing more than a slang insult some people applied to people who had hobbies that were less of the norm...that's it. I think a geek was actually a circus sideshow performer if I'm not mistaken.

That's how I feel about machoism & displays of manliness & homophobes; They're quick tempered, paranoid of being judged. They say they don't care about what others think, yet they spend every public moment trying to act or look a certain way & get defensive if you take anything they do out of context. They're trying too hard to hide something & I find it suspicious & immature. When their display of manliness fails to impress, they put on another act called "sour grapes." I've never seen women go out of their way to act as feminine as possible, & that's a good thing.

I could not care less about whether fake geek girls exist. I'm a girl and I like video games. That's all that matters to me. I'm not worried that there are fake gamers girls out there, giving me a bad name or something. For as long as this debate or whatever has been going on, I have yet to hear a logical reason why anyone is upset over the idea of fake gamers. In high school I wore a lot of skater shirts and yet I have never even touched a skateboard, but I never had any skaters harassing me and demanding I wear different clothes

Schadrach:

Andy of Comix Inc:
Yes, but that it doesn't exist for men, too, is why it's worrying. Or is there "fake geek men" we have to watch out for, too? And if there are - why don't people gun for them, too? It's probably cos most of the people shouting out against "fake geek girls" are insecure little straight fellas, eh.

There are, and they do (they are a little bit more uncommon because there's less to gain, but otherwise yes, they are totally a thing that happens). It's a pretty common response in these threads to talk about them, which then gets described in two different ways, depending on who is talking about it. Either "You're only bringing them up now to pretend this isn't really about sexism" or "The difference is that no one bats an eye about it when it's directed at dudebros."

But dudebros aren't fake gamers. They do exist within the definition of "gamer". Unless, of course, we've relegated Call of Duty and FIFA and the like to "not games" (despite them being market leaders), and if you have to start making concessions like that, is there a point of the tag "gamer" at all? A secretive, selective little group?

A lot of people who are deemed "fake geek girls" actually properly play games. They play The Sims and Angry Birds. It's just, for some reason we (and I say "we" with the exclusion of myself here) have decided they don't "count" as games, so they can't call themselves "real gamers". It's... it's weird. It's the kind of stuff that creates the market disparity that leads to "console wars," the kind that leads to the utterance of the term "PC master race" WITHOUT the irony intended in its conception... if it's not sexist, it is something-ist. It is something that seeks to invisibly pigeonhole a series of people based on what should be self-defined attributes. It's really just baffling.

Xisin:

When I was still a little girl in college, I decided to attend a tournament for a new fighting game that had come out. My husband(boyfriend then) and I signed up and then waited about 30 minutes for the bracket to be posted. We were really excited; turn out was really good for a local tournament: 70ish people! Then the bracket went up...

I was placed in the girlfriend bracket(that was it's actual name), which was located in the losers bracket. When I talked to the tournament organizer, he ignored me. Sad part is after winning the girlfriend bracket, my next five or so rounds were against people that should have gone out in round two and my first opponent was really good. She and I went right down to the wire, but she was eliminated in the first round(and since we started in losers, she was out.) I three stocked the first guy I played against without taking any damage and he made it to round 4.

Crap my husband was already better than me at that game, he didn't need a handicap. So there is your example, though I can't really give names since it was a collective. Think the organizer was a John. (Which helps so much, I know.)

OT: People lie...it's not gender specific. So I've never seen the point of thinking someone has a lack of integrity as they are walking up to me. I'd like to be judged on merit in competition and I don't rate people in normal conversation. In other words I don't test people while talking to them. Having drastically different views and likes can make for great conversation.

As for the, I think someone used the term cam-whores, I adore them. Most of them are fairly easy on the eyes, no matter which gender they are, but more importantly, the comments are pure gold. I once saw a guy donate $150 for a hello from the girl streaming. I'm chuckling thinking about it. To me, that man isn't a victim, he made a mistake and a very stupid one. If I went to a bar, got drunk and had sex with a guy, I would have made a mistake. I would have a lot of re-accessing of my life to do, just like the $150 hello man does. You live, you learn, and then you buy Loves(and hopefully you don't distrust an entire group of people based off just a few members.)

You know what, I'd even go so far as to defend the "fakers." A wise not-horse once said, "It is the actions which matter, not the Name it was done for." The "fakers" might be interested for different reasons than me but we are both still interested. They might know less than me about a given subject, but that just leaves them room to do some tangential learning. I know I've been against trying or doing something, only to discover I love it after going through the motions a bit.

Fair.

That's you in column A and about a hundred people in column B, despite it apparently happening in every corner of everywhere.

You know what though, I'm also going to have to argue that what you call sexist others would call a sought after concession. I also spent a summer or two chasing Fighting Game glory, and an organiser this side of the pond(who was not called John) was repeatedly requested to make a seperate bracket for the ladies. This was refused so they didn't show up again.

Their argument was can you really call it sexist when proper sports have male and female divisions, even when there is no physical demand to make it necessary(see female snooker, darts and even chess)? If the other ladies there had been up to scratch you wouldn't have complained, seemed to me your problem was being a bored big fish in a small pond, but would it have been fair to the others if they had done away with the entire bracket just because you were an exception?

People were asking for exactly what you just used as ammo for 'games are sexist'. Granted, it's shitty that the GF bracket was single elimination.

And of course you adore cam-whores exploiting lonely men, that's not sexist or vile in the slightest. In fact fuck that guy.

Nobody is distrusting an entire group of people here, so drop that shit like it's hot. Someone else here said, 'when men see this debate, we see "I'm sick of FAKE gamer girls". When women see it they see "I'm sick of fake gamer GIRLS".' The negative emphasis change matters, and is apparent in the rhetoric you see all over threads like these.

Nobody is slagging off whole female demographics here, it's liars and phony ass people we have a problem with. I must admit, I've never seen liars and fake people and hipsters be applauded in any other group.

I think this, as so many, discussions can be neatly summarized and solved by Will Wheatons comment

"Don't be a dick."

I know, profound, he's a wordsmith

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