BioShock Infinite's Burial at Sea Returns to Rapture

 Pages PREV 1 2 3
 

1337mokro:
They explained it in broad strokes.

Ryan couldn't handle his objectivism biting him in the ass and a civil war broke out. You can sum up the why in a single sentence.

The how is a different matter. We had to imagine the riots. Imagine how poorly off the working class was and the conditions they lived in pre-fall. The sneaking about the political maneuvering and so on, all in the mind. If I had to equate it to anything it's basically imagining what happens in between comic panels.

Now however we are basically going to be Ryan's errand boy in search for some special item I guess. I know nothing of the game's story after all.

Now this is interesting. Perhaps I caught some of the subtler things you didn't, but it was not Ryan being unable to handle his "objectivism biting him in the ass". It was public perception to his actions and Fontaine's long con. Ryan believed the market needed to sort itself out and any direct manipulation was unacceptable. He saw Fontaine actively manipulating the market and tried to let the market sort him out. However, because Fontaine was manipulating the market AND conning the populous Ryan had to take direct action against Fontaine. This would have probably gone over ok if Fontaine didn't do such a good job at conning the populous into believing he was a good guy and Ryan showed everyone all of the evidence. Ryan Industries sizing all of Fontaine Futuristic's assets didn't help either, but that is kinda under Ryan not showing all the evidence while doing the right thing undiplomatically. That seems like more than one sentence to me.

Anyway, you do only get a vague sense of what the riots were like from the aftermath and the audio logs in specific areas. So it comes down to personal preference if you want to actually experience them or just imagine them. While I always figured the working class apartments were just as bad as when you roll through them. The audio logs implicate as much, but I may be assuming too much. However, the trailer shows us that it is the eve of shit hitting the fan so I doubt any of the political maneuvering or a grandiose societal overview will occur. So those can remain safely in your imagination.

And if the established "formula" is being used I very much doubt we are going to be Ryan's errand boy.

This is actually why I'm so interested in this DLC. It will show if this is the rabbit hole we will be exploring for a long time to come or if the universe has exceptions to the rules.

Sarge034:
Now this is interesting. Perhaps I caught some of the subtler things you didn't, but it was not Ryan being unable to handle his "objectivism biting him in the ass". It was public perception to his actions and Fontaine's long con. Ryan believed the market needed to sort itself out and any direct manipulation was unacceptable. He saw Fontaine actively manipulating the market and tried to let the market sort him out. However, because Fontaine was manipulating the market AND conning the populous Ryan had to take direct action against Fontaine. This would have probably gone over ok if Fontaine didn't do such a good job at conning the populous into believing he was a good guy and Ryan showed everyone all of the evidence. Ryan Industries sizing all of Fontaine Futuristic's assets didn't help either, but that is kinda under Ryan not showing all the evidence while doing the right thing undiplomatically. That seems like more than one sentence to me.

Yes, my one sentence summary of the why's of raptures fall is lacking in nuanced details... It's one sentence my man. I advice you never again to draw conclusions based on a summary. Not to mention that you are mistaking in one area.

The reason why Fontaine was in the position he was in the first place was because of the completely free market approach at first. He had illegal businesses on the side, but those merely warranted crackdowns, not outright assassinations. After all the smuggling might endanger Rapture, so the smuggling had to go.

However when this Fontaine started to threaten Ryan's control over Rapture he, Ryan, changed his methods. No longer was the free market the best way to go. Fontaine had to be stopped from taking away Ryan's city, that what he had built was supposed to remain his. In essence it's the objectivist that makes things and the objectivist that takes things that are clashing with each other. In short objectivism came to bite Ryan in the back when a man intent on taking what he wanted appeared.

Sure you can talk about Fontaine's con but really all the con entailed was a smuggling ring and garnering favour with the lower classes so they kept buying his stuff. That's all there was to it, until he set his eyes on Rapture, the rest was his doing as Atlas.

I'm of course not going to slap this game out of people's hands. Why would I? If you want to enjoy this DLC go right ahead who am I to stop you from playing something you think you would like (not a backhand insult, the game just hasn't been released). However to me it kills a bit of the mystery and is nothing but fan baiting instead of exploring the city we just introduced in the same game this DLC is coming out for.

You know what would have been interesting? Playing as an alternate time-line Booker, for example the one that joined the revolution.

How does being Ryan's errand boy not fit the plot contrivance and absolute cop out that is the "constants in an infinite amount of realities with infinite possibilities"?

You are an assassin, brought to Rapture to kill Fontaine.

The lighthouse is there as it was in the first game. You have the man, wonder why it's never a woman? (frat boy sales figures)? The city of Rapture is also present. All three flimsy unjustified constants are met for a DLC where in you are sent to crack down on FF and the smugglers.

In all honesty though they'd best drop that little sliver of pseudoscience bullshit.

They made the actual DeWitt roll over in his grave when they wrote those lines.

1337mokro:
Yes, my one sentence summary of the why's of raptures fall is lacking in nuanced details... It's one sentence my man. I advice you never again to draw conclusions based on a summary.

You said it could be summarized in one sentence and I disagreed. I felt it was an inaccurate summary made to try to prove a point and I disagreed about the objectivism bit. I have that right. There were no conclusions made other than the summary was inaccurate and perhaps that you may not have caught everything that was going on in the story. I then offered a counter summary with additional information about, what I felt, were the relevant topics.

Not to mention that you are mistaking in one area.

The reason why Fontaine was in the position he was in the first place was because of the completely free market approach at first. He had illegal businesses on the side, but those merely warranted crackdowns, not outright assassinations. After all the smuggling might endanger Rapture, so the smuggling had to go.

However when this Fontaine started to threaten Ryan's control over Rapture he, Ryan, changed his methods. No longer was the free market the best way to go. Fontaine had to be stopped from taking away Ryan's city, that what he had built was supposed to remain his. In essence it's the objectivist that makes things and the objectivist that takes things that are clashing with each other. In short objectivism came to bite Ryan in the back when a man intent on taking what he wanted appeared.

Sure you can talk about Fontaine's con but really all the con entailed was a smuggling ring and garnering favour with the lower classes so they kept buying his stuff. That's all there was to it, until he set his eyes on Rapture, the rest was his doing as Atlas.

And you mistake Ryan's motivations. Normally a free market needs three things to persist; it needs to be isolated from other markets, it needs to let businesses rise and fall on their own merits, and it need to have a governing agency to insure all businesses are playing by the rules. Fontaine's smuggling ring allowed him to sell things at a drastically reduced cost. The free market tried to compensate for this by lowering their costs to match. This reduced the pay of the workers to the point of poverty. Fontaine then used his underpriced goods and services to aid the poor that he actually created. This granted him good will and a higher market percentage. Ryan saw what was going on and was in the process of stopping the smuggling ring. This would have normalized the market and allowed the companies to increase worker pay again, but because Ryan didn't tell anyone what was going on the poor thought he was just trying to marginalize them. This is what created the division, and it just kept getting worse as he tried to return the market to true free market status.

In short, Ryan saw Fontaine turning the free market into a monopoly and acted to prevent this. In Ryan's eyes this was just as bad as Capitalism, Communism, and the Church. I truly do not believe Ryan cared if he was the leading industrialist just so long as Rapture remained a legitimate free market.

I'm of course not going to slap this game out of people's hands. Why would I? If you want to enjoy this DLC go right ahead who am I to stop you from playing something you think you would like (not a backhand insult, the game just hasn't been released). However to me it kills a bit of the mystery and is nothing but fan baiting instead of exploring the city we just introduced in the same game this DLC is coming out for.

I never said you would... And you're right, we're not exploring the city introduced in the same game this DLC is coming out for. We are exploring the core concept that was just introduced in the same game this DLC is coming out for.

You know what would have been interesting? Playing as an alternate time-line Booker, for example the one that joined the revolution.

...? But isn't this going to be about an alternate timeline Booker? Unless you are implying that the Booker we played as and this Booker are one in the same. I see, you mean that we can only explore the exploits of Columbia Bookers.

How does being Ryan's errand boy not fit the plot contrivance and absolute cop out that is the "constants in an infinite amount of realities with infinite possibilities"?

Ok, this shit is about to get really "Outer Limits" on us. People have literally gone insane thinking about this stuff (or so the legends go), ready?

*Deep breath*

Except there are not an infinite amount of realities with infinite possibilities and yet there are. We need to first understand that there are different sizes and sets of infinity, and that we are also talking about infinite parallel universe theory.

For example...
> infinity / 2 = 1/2 infinity
> infinity (Set A) = Sub-set A (1/2 infinity) + Sub-set B (1/2 infinity)

Now the bit we have to try and wrap our brains around is that technically...
> 1/2 infinity = infinity
> infinity (Set A) = Sub-set A (infinity) + Sub-set B (infinity)

So every set of infinity has infinite sub-sets comprised of infinite sub-sets ect, ect, ect. God I need a picture...

So assume the "Bioshock" universes are Set A (the top most block), Sub-sets are simply variable determiners. Sub-set lvl 1 (the next level) could be is this a father/daughter story (BS2 & BS:I) or not (BS1)? Sub-set lvl 2 (the next level) could be the city. Essentially every level is only determining 1 variable but every block is also its' own universe.

Now to add on more infinities. If the "Bioshock" universes are Set A, then there are also Set B through Set infinity. This means that you need qualifiers for what would group a universe in Set A. The easiest way to do that is to look at what all three games have in common. These are the constants that are spoken of. If the story occurs in a normal city it is no longer a "Bioshock" universe, it is now whatever we are calling the Set 2 universes. One of the things that seems to be a "constant" for "Bioshock" universes is the fact you never exclusively work for, or you actively work against, the person (people) in charge. We also need to remember that Set A and Set B could be a part of Super-set A that has less restrictions like requiring a "Bioshock" universe story but with no specific city requirement.

I really like to discuss this type of stuff so please feel free to take some time here.

You are an assassin, brought to Rapture to kill Fontaine...All three flimsy unjustified constants are met for a DLC where in you are sent to crack down on FF and the smugglers.

Source? Or is this conjecture?

The lighthouse is there as it was in the first game. You have the man, wonder why it's never a woman? (frat boy sales figures)? The city of Rapture is also present.

The lighthouse is another constant required to be in the afore mentioned Set A. It probably could be a woman as that could be one of the allowed variable so I figure it is just because of the dominance of male protagonists. If it was a woman in the sibling storyline though I think the child's gender would have to change as well to retain the dichotomy. While Rapture probably is fan service, it is also one of the allowed variable cities for a Set A universe.

In all honesty though they'd best drop that little sliver of pseudoscience bullshit.

The fact you don't understand it makes where you are coming from more understandable. This was not a jab at you, just liking it to the people who didn't like Bioshock 1 because they had no understanding of the business and social theologies underling the entire game.

They made the actual DeWitt roll over in his grave when they wrote those lines.

Which lines? I'm confused. The "constants and variables" lines?

Sarge034:
Snip

Ugh... I thought I stopped talking about this shitty game's plot long ago... Why did this DLC rope me back into talking about it?

Screw all the rest I am merely going to focus on the technicalities of their version of the multiple worlds theory.

The other constants would be turrets and cake. Both universes have cake so those are now constants. It's a weak flimsy way of justifying the plot and not actually having to explain why their universes work the same. It's meant to stuff under the rug that everything you do is at least a dichotomous choice and that the plot is essentially ignoring it's own set rules to make things happen.

You only have to look at how they make the city float to understand exactly how little thought went into this from the angle of the sciences.

We have a suspended particle in an air balloon right? Gravity has no effect on it. They literally state that word for word. It is a particle literally suspended between universes so no force in either universe can move it seeing as half of it is in a different universe. Now we will gloss over the fact that this doesn't lead to a nuclear fissure as the dimensional gate snaps it in half like it would do to a finger but now you are basically sitting on a gigantic immovable atom bomb.

Yet... we see the city parts flying around? What? They just established that gravity has no effect on it, gravity being nothing else but a force. So we can conclude that exerting force on it leads to nothing. Yet they can move around with rockets like they are a bunch of air balloons? That should not happen. The air balloon is nothing else but a force exerted on it from one universe You should have an immobile suspended city floating on immobile suspended gas particles in one universe and a bunch of floating immovable particles that are making airplanes crash as they run into them in another universe.

They did not think when writing this. This is techno-babble to explain things in a way that makes it look smart whilst it really isn't.

Now on to why these constants are bullshit.

For every universe that exists with a city, a man and a lighthouse, there exists one without all three. After all they are all choices that are made, so for every Comstock, there is a Booker, one that did not build a flying city. The very simple reason why you concluded this narrative cop out of constants made sense is that you started counting the trees at the start of the game. Where the city already exists.

However both games, Bioshock 1 and 3, establish times before that. Times where decisions were made to build these cities, the lighthouses and to create the men.

If Andrew Ryan had made the choice to stay in Russia, which he did because his counterpart made the choice to leave, there now exists a universe without a Rapture, a lighthouse and a Jack. Sure one of those universes might still end up with a Soviet Version of Rapture, a Soviet Lighthouse and a Gregory instead of a Jack, but the counter part to that universe lacks them.

Unless the claim is that someone, somewhere will always build a city, a lighthouse and have a man oppose him. Set A is not rapture. Set A is the start of the universe, or the start of a different universe that they are a parallel off. The fact is every choice makes a different universe, as set up by the game. So literally when someone asks you if you'd like some chips two universes are formed, one where you said yes and one where you said no.

Now even if Rapture was Set A, that already means there is a Set B2 that has no Rapture. Why? Construction. The guy that built Rapture said no. He also had a choice there so he created a universe wherein he said yes to Ryan's money and another where he said no because he thought him a lunatic for example.

The problem with infinity is it's very nature that there are no limitations. So your very first subset would in fact not be the father daughter story or one without. It would be the subset of someone deciding to scratch their ass after Booker got baptized, the baptizing event being another that leads to a universe with and without the constants. After all the universe splits along the timeline of choices. So it's just a matter of which choice came first. which results in an exponentially larger amount of universes for each subsequent choice.

So grant that Subset A is the start of the game. Choice 1 is get out the boat. Choice 2 is go inside. Choice 3 is wash face. Choice 4 is continue walking up stairs after seeing dead guy. Choice 5 is find solution to puzzle. Choice 6 is get into seat. Choice 7 is struggle or not and so on.

So before we even have entered Columbia we have created 7 universes that have created their own universes universes based on the choices you made in those universes, the maximum if we stick to the 7 choices being made in that timespan would be 5040 different universes, granted there were only two options to each choice.

Now granted my picks here were arbitrary for what constitutes choices but really what is a choice but an action we decide to make? I could have even put in walk to the lighthouse as a choice because technically it is. Seeing as that is what the universe has set up as the only rule for creating a different universe is that a choice has to be made and that a universe is created for both choices because they are both always made.

It is a ridiculous hodgepodge of universes that are incapable of having any constants because by the very laws set up by the game there has to exist a universe without these constants because these constants were the results of conscious actions, which always involve choices. Heck with the inter-dimensional time hopping we even SAW a universe where there was no city, no lighthouse or a man. It was only the dimension hopping that eventually got the man to the universe with the city and lighthouse.

The more you think about this you realize it's not science or even part of the story.

It's what they hung up in their offices as their work mantra of laziness.

"One city, one lighthouse, one man"

It's their formula for Bioshock games :D

Also note that if we get actually really meta the reality is that Subset A is OUR universe before Ken Levine decided to make Bioshock. So B1 and B2 have Bioshock. No Bioshock. Even in the realm of meta there exists a universe without the three supposed constants. The worst thing you can do to this game is pretend like it's science is sound. Let the suspension of disbelief handle what it tells you, because if you think about it you will go insane from the stupidity.

Now onto the question you asked about what I said about a possible plot for this game.

No that was just me trying to show you how being Ryan's errand boy could still hold to the absurd rule of three constants. Heck if they actually DO use that plot I am so going to rub it in later.

Also why not a woman? We have seen that sex is utterly interchangeable in these universes. So yes it's a marketing choice to not have a female lead in it. They just test so much poorer with focus groups that got us that hilariously boring box cover in the first place.

Don't say things like "you just didn't understand it" I am not taking offence here, it just sound really lazy. It is pseudoscience my good man, because they limit it with 3 constants (ignoring the fact cake and turrets are also constants).

The actual science behind it, that universes branch of existing parallel to each other based on choices is plausible, but that is actual science, you know what they didn't do? Make a set of constants for their universes because they realized that there would also exist universes without those constants. Actually the only constant they had to include was that in all of these universes the universe exists because that is the only way there could even be a universe in the first place. Or maybe not. The first choice for the universe was existence, so technically there have to be no constants. A was just nothing or the absence of a universe.

So we have a B1 and B2 where a universe exists and where one doesn't. The game and we exist on the one branch that could continue, or maybe B2 made the same choice of existence again where it split into C1 and C2 where again one exists and one does not. Maybe B2 gave rise to an infinite number of universe creations time and time again. The possibilities are literally endless in this and Bioshock infinite wants to tie it down with 3 constants in all universes?

Like I said earlier DeWitt would roll in his grave if he saw what kind of multiverse they created in this game.

PS: I have said my say about this many times already, I honestly have no desire to go into this discussion again and again. The game just isn't worth spending hours of my time discussing it so I won't.

Nothing personal, you made some good points about how it might be possible to achieve a set of universes that have three constants in them. However it still fails because the claim is universal constants across infinite universes. To assume an arbitrary starting point in universes established to have past histories is just ridiculous.

It is one of the stupidest things pretending to be scientific I heard in a game.

I will give you that the whole 'floating particle" thing was half-baked, or at least very poorly explained. I never mentioned them though. I was talking about the parallel universes.

1337mokro:
For every universe that exists with a city, a man and a lighthouse, there exists one without all three. After all they are all choices that are made, so for every Comstock, there is a Booker, one that did not build a flying city. The very simple reason why you concluded this narrative cop out of constants made sense is that you started counting the trees at the start of the game. Where the city already exists.

However both games, Bioshock 1 and 3, establish times before that. Times where decisions were made to build these cities, the lighthouses and to create the men.

If Andrew Ryan had made the choice to stay in Russia, which he did because his counterpart made the choice to leave, there now exists a universe without a Rapture, a lighthouse and a Jack. Sure one of those universes might still end up with a Soviet Version of Rapture, a Soviet Lighthouse and a Gregory instead of a Jack, but the counter part to that universe lacks them.

Unless the claim is that someone, somewhere will always build a city, a lighthouse and have a man oppose him. Set A is not rapture. Set A is the start of the universe, or the start of a different universe that they are a parallel off. The fact is every choice makes a different universe, as set up by the game. So literally when someone asks you if you'd like some chips two universes are formed, one where you said yes and one where you said no.

Now even if Rapture was Set A, that already means there is a Set B2 that has no Rapture. Why? Construction. The guy that built Rapture said no. He also had a choice there so he created a universe wherein he said yes to Ryan's money and another where he said no because he thought him a lunatic for example.

The problem with infinity is it's very nature that there are no limitations. So your very first subset would in fact not be the father daughter story or one without. It would be the subset of someone deciding to scratch their ass after Booker got baptized, the baptizing event being another that leads to a universe with and without the constants. After all the universe splits along the timeline of choices. So it's just a matter of which choice came first. which results in an exponentially larger amount of universes for each subsequent choice.

So grant that Subset A is the start of the game. Choice 1 is get out the boat. Choice 2 is go inside. Choice 3 is wash face. Choice 4 is continue walking up stairs after seeing dead guy. Choice 5 is find solution to puzzle. Choice 6 is get into seat. Choice 7 is struggle or not and so on.

So before we even have entered Columbia we have created 7 universes that have created their own universes universes based on the choices you made in those universes, the maximum if we stick to the 7 choices being made in that timespan would be 5040 different universes, granted there were only two options to each choice.

Now granted my picks here were arbitrary for what constitutes choices but really what is a choice but an action we decide to make? I could have even put in walk to the lighthouse as a choice because technically it is. Seeing as that is what the universe has set up as the only rule for creating a different universe is that a choice has to be made and that a universe is created for both choices because they are both always made.

It is a ridiculous hodgepodge of universes that are incapable of having any constants because by the very laws set up by the game there has to exist a universe without these constants because these constants were the results of conscious actions, which always involve choices. Heck with the inter-dimensional time hopping we even SAW a universe where there was no city, no lighthouse or a man. It was only the dimension hopping that eventually got the man to the universe with the city and lighthouse.

The more you think about this you realize it's not science or even part of the story.

It's what they hung up in their offices as their work mantra of laziness.

"One city, one lighthouse, one man"

It's their formula for Bioshock games :D

Also note that if we get actually really meta the reality is that Subset A is OUR universe before Ken Levine decided to make Bioshock. So B1 and B2 have Bioshock. No Bioshock. Even in the realm of meta there exists a universe without the three supposed constants. The worst thing you can do to this game is pretend like it's science is sound. Let the suspension of disbelief handle what it tells you, because if you think about it you will go insane from the stupidity.

You were soooooo close to understanding what I said. So, yes, you would have created 5040 different universes, but they would all be "Bioshock" universes. They have the required things to be in that universe set, the "constants". There ARE universes where those constants are not present, but they are not a part of the "Bioshock" set. You were spot on saying that every choice would create a new universe. That is what I was trying to convey by saying that every set is made of an infinite level of sub-sets. This series is focused on the "Bioshock" universe set though. We saw, and heard, what we can assume to be non-"Bioshock" universes through the tears in Infinite, but the narrative is centered on the "Bioshock" set.

Now onto the question you asked about what I said about a possible plot for this game.

No that was just me trying to show you how being Ryan's errand boy could still hold to the absurd rule of three constants. Heck if they actually DO use that plot I am so going to rub it in later.

I was just wondering if I had missed a news release or something. However, if you called it you have every right to be proud of that.

Also why not a woman? We have seen that sex is utterly interchangeable in these universes. So yes it's a marketing choice to not have a female lead in it. They just test so much poorer with focus groups that got us that hilariously boring box cover in the first place.

I already answered this in the last post...

" It probably could be a woman as that could be one of the allowed variable so I figure it is just because of the dominance of male protagonists. If it was a woman in the sibling storyline though I think the child's gender would have to change as well to retain the dichotomy."

Don't say things like "you just didn't understand it" I am not taking offence here, it just sound really lazy. It is pseudoscience my good man, because they limit it with 3 constants (ignoring the fact cake and turrets are also constants).

The actual science behind it, that universes branch of existing parallel to each other based on choices is plausible, but that is actual science, you know what they didn't do? Make a set of constants for their universes because they realized that there would also exist universes without those constants. Actually the only constant they had to include was that in all of these universes the universe exists because that is the only way there could even be a universe in the first place. Or maybe not. The first choice for the universe was existence, so technically there have to be no constants. A was just nothing or the absence of a universe.

So we have a B1 and B2 where a universe exists and where one doesn't. The game and we exist on the one branch that could continue, or maybe B2 made the same choice of existence again where it split into C1 and C2 where again one exists and one does not. Maybe B2 gave rise to an infinite number of universe creations time and time again. The possibilities are literally endless in this and Bioshock infinite wants to tie it down with 3 constants in all universes?

Like I said earlier DeWitt would roll in his grave if he saw what kind of multiverse they created in this game.

PS: I have said my say about this many times already, I honestly have no desire to go into this discussion again and again. The game just isn't worth spending hours of my time discussing it so I won't.

Nothing personal, you made some good points about how it might be possible to achieve a set of universes that have three constants in them. However it still fails because the claim is universal constants across infinite universes. To assume an arbitrary starting point in universes established to have past histories is just ridiculous.

It is one of the stupidest things pretending to be scientific I heard in a game.

I'm just trying to get the point across that you can group like things and give them a name, regardless of if there are an infinite amount of them or not. They are not identical so you can distinguish them.

Also, I apologies if you didn't wish for me to continue this discussion but to be honest I didn't read that bit until I had already written this thing out. If nothing else it is food for thought. Just remember, everything sounded like "pseudoscience" until it became commonplace.

Sarge034:
Snip because I think we both know what we wrote in the past

Enough time has passed that I am willing to talk about this again. I'm sorry if I sounded short off but I have literally had this discussion dozens of time and eventually you just throw your hands up when someone imposes the billionth random limitation on the meaning of "Constants and variables". I am sorry that if it sounded like I just didn't want to hear what you said or was tired of listening to you, because that was certainly not the case.

It's just that the entire thing is a gigantic plothole mess and people are trying to make sense of it rather than call it out for the bullshit that it is. You can't make sense of it because it's full of holes. I have cheese in my fridge that has less holes than this story and everybody seems to be to polite to smack Levine in the face and demand a fucking explanation for the holes that is not bullshit.

My point about the floating particle was that it was an infinitely simpler idea to get right, gravity, than multidimensional branching through time and space. Yet they still fucked it up, so I already expected them to fuck up the multiverse, just not as badly as they did.

They did not say "Only a specific branch of our universes has constants". No that's not at all what the game said. They can travel through dimensions. At no point is there given a limitation to this power. So you impose a set of rules that aren't even there.

"They only mean a specific set of Bioshock universes" No they don't, they never said anything of the sort. They can travel to any universe even the ones in the past where no Columbia existed and the universe hadn't split yet, this is not a Bioshock universe, this is a Potential Bioshock Universe. They teleported here by going through a lighthouse dimension. So no they are still talking shit with the three constants being applicable everywhere. First assumption invalid.

"The narrative is only centered on universes in the Bioshock set" No as evident by the Booker universe without a floating city where he just became a dad, this universe has no Colombia and it will both have a Rapture and No Rapture. In this latter universe there is no lighthouse or city, there is a man though, there are always men. The fact is that even in the branches of the Bioshock set, the cities we know of don't have to exist. Second assumption disproved by the game. Not to mention the after credits bit where we see even more Booker universes outside of the Columbia-Non baptized ones.

EDIT:

Assumption #3 is that the set of universes only encompasses the one at the start of this game and those that branch of it, a.k.a. the Bioshock Set. I already wrote an extremely lengthy post to show that there are universes before it who start on the same branch but end up not having the constants. I also mentioned that branches that don't have a Columbia could branch of into having a Rapture, meaning that a universe where the constants weren't valid can spawn a universe where these constants are present. You now no longer have a branching tree but broken up isolated twigs with cities, lighthouses and protagonists in them that you call a Bioshock set. If you just want to include the universes that have a Rapture or a Columbia or a Moleman Empire then this becomes an extremely arbitrary border, not to mention that this way basically anything could be called a constant, which at this point is a gigantic misnomer. It's no longer a constant but an inclusion criteria.

It's not that everything in those universes happens that way because it's 100% guaranteed, which is what a constant is, you just selected those universes for inclusion in the group because those things were present in them. That's not a constant, you are trying to pass off a random result of a linked set of choices that ended up creating the inclusion criteria like it's an inevitable end when in reality you just picked that universe because one of the results matched your inclusion criteria.

Heck you could literally create a set of universes based on Peanut Butter and claim it's a fucking constant because all the universes that had Peanut Butter were included in the Peanut Butter set, so as you see it is a constant because all the universes that we put into the set because they had peanut butter in them have peanut butter in them!

Logical Fallacy of the highest degree.

End of Edit

It's a lazy cop out to imply there are set in stone constants and loose variables in every universe, which is what they did. Here is the thing about the Constants and variables. It's a gigantic plothole Bandaid!

Levine is basically saying "I'm going to take this hackneyed, impossible-to-do-right concept of time travel then combine it with and even more impossible-to-do-right concept like dimensional travel and solve it with three words: 'Constants and variables.'" What about the Grandfather Paradox? "Constants and variables." What about all the universes in which Comstock is a good guy, or those in which Booker doesn't sell Anna? "Constants and variables." Why couldn't Elizabeth just stage an intervention to keep Booker from drinking and gambling? "Constants and variables." Why didn't we just kill the Booker that made the choice to turn into Comstock? Why did both have to die? It is implied that only that choice mattered so kill Booker right after he becomes Comstock and your save. Why didn't you do that? "CONSTANTS AND VARIABLES."

It's his writing crutch and he is the laziest bastard on earth because he uses it on almost every single time travel plothole! The fact of the matter is very simple.

There are a million upon million of variants. Yet somethings are arbitrarily set in stone to happen or be present 100% of all times. Even things besides the three constants we mentioned before. This all leads up to a moment of "We have to kill Booker here and now"

You know what I said when that happened?

Wait a second love. You can travel through time and space and I have a shotgun. Let's go kill a million Bad Comstocks! Maybe we'll enter a dimension where this game doesn't suck so much or where they actually made the game they showed off at E3 rather than this fratboy shooter drivel. Hey wait a second!!! We actually only have to kill One Comstock. The one that decides to kidnap his daughter. What was that bullshit about millions of universes? We actually only have to kill one, maybe two of them when they make crucial decisions that split the universes.

That way we don't have to drown an equal amount of good Bookers and all the billions of people in the universes created by those choices, or even Good Comstocks. When you think about it by drowning Booker you are essentially committing mass genocide of maybe trillions of people. Is it really worth it to stop Comstock? I mean what did he do besides conquer a few universes at best? I mean he would have his ass kicked the second he ran into another Comstock trying to conquer the multiverse or heck he could even run into a Good Comstock, which by the same logic of infinite universes has to exists somewhere, or let me fucking guess Comstock being bad is a constant? Even so shouldn't we think this through a bit more... NOPE! Constants and variables! Glub Glub Glub! (drowned).

The holes are fucking gigantic and the bandaid over it reads "Constants and Variables".

Post rant discussion:

My good man, the multiworlds theory is not pseudoscience. What this game made it INTO is psuedoscience. Please understand that difference here.

We have DeWitt with his theory about branching multiple worlds and we have Ken Levine who is written a sloppy time-dimension hopping story. The latter is the pseudoscience because of the limitations they put on their explanation of DeWitt's theory so they don't have to come up with an actual explanation they can just say it's a natural law and just sidestep the plotholes rather than actually fixing them.

Sadly I was wrong about the game, the plot will involve Elizabeth (fact) saving the little sisters or something (what I took from the press release). Still if she works for Ryan kidnapping them and bringing them to the homes, only to see the truth of what she was doing I'll call it a semi-win (speculation).

EDIT:

Sorry for being so lengthy and wordy, I just don't know any other way to make clear that there is no way to make sense of the plot of Bioshock Infinite because the damned thing is fundamentally fucked up. This isn't a game that follows the Gainax Ending trope, it's a game like Mass Effect 3, where nothing at all makes sense when you just stop and think because the entire story is filled with holes, it's just not as bad a game like that one.

1337mokro:
Snip because I think we both know what we wrote in the past

Now your points are becoming a little clearer and I can see what you are saying. So I'll fundamentally break the discussion by asking this one simple question.

"What makes that particular Elizabeth special?"

Now you could answer this fairly quickly by simply saying it would have spoiled the game to see another duo phase in or see them phase something out. And that it was lazy and all that. But let's assume that is not the case, because I like the banter.

What if Rosalind Lutece actually fractured the very cosmos by bringing through the male version of herself (Robert) and Elizabeth? It is stated in an audio log that Robert is not well after arriving in the new universe. He was convulsing and bleeding, like everyone else that gets phased. Rosalind is able to stabilize his mind with a specific note, I believe she says it is a "c minor" because a "c minor is a c minor in any universe." She then enacts a more permanent solution by giving him a transfusion of her blood thereby anchoring him to that universe. Elizebeth, on the other hand, never has these problems for an unstated reason. I believe this is because here pinky finger is still acting as an anchor in her universe so she can do as she pleases in any universe without the cognitive discourse. Sort of like quantum entanglement theory. And then there is also the thing about the Lutces becoming "ethereal beings". Able to move between, and observe, all of the universes but having a limited capability to influence them.

You might see it as just another cheap cop out, but wouldn't that be an interesting twist on the multiverse theory? The main problem is that in this scenario there are no longer an infinite amount of universes because of the meddling done.

Sarge034:

1337mokro:
Snip because I think we both know what we wrote in the past

Now your points are becoming a little clearer and I can see what you are saying. So I'll fundamentally break the discussion by asking this one simple question.

"What makes that particular Elizabeth special?"

Now you could answer this fairly quickly by simply saying it would have spoiled the game to see another duo phase in or see them phase something out. And that it was lazy and all that. But let's assume that is not the case, because I like the banter.

What if Rosalind Lutece actually fractured the very cosmos by bringing through the male version of herself (Robert) and Elizabeth? It is stated in an audio log that Robert is not well after arriving in the new universe. He was convulsing and bleeding, like everyone else that gets phased. Rosalind is able to stabilize his mind with a specific note, I believe she says it is a "c minor" because a "c minor is a c minor in any universe." She then enacts a more permanent solution by giving him a transfusion of her blood thereby anchoring him to that universe. Elizebeth, on the other hand, never has these problems for an unstated reason. I believe this is because here pinky finger is still acting as an anchor in her universe so she can do as she pleases in any universe without the cognitive discourse. Sort of like quantum entanglement theory. And then there is also the thing about the Lutces becoming "ethereal beings". Able to move between, and observe, all of the universes but having a limited capability to influence them.

You might see it as just another cheap cop out, but wouldn't that be an interesting twist on the multiverse theory? The main problem is that in this scenario there are no longer an infinite amount of universes because of the meddling done.

Chapter 1: To be Special or Not to be.

Why is that Elizabeth special? She isn't. It is literally shown to you that there are more than one Elizabeth's who all seem in agreement and with the same personality. By the laws established she literally has no particular skill, talent or anything special what so ever. It's this Booker that is special. Because this Booker has the magical ability to ignore plotholes and not suffer from the crippling effects of one of his persona's dying in a different universe.

I don't see what you are getting at. Wouldn't what be an interesting twist on the multi-verse? You haven't actually given any twists here. You just asked a question and then went on to talk about the effects of travelling from universe to universe. Is it that they broke it? That only the Bioshock ones are left? That is quite literally impossible because as I already established there are literally an infinite amount of universes being created as we speak. It depends on how we interpret the word choice and it is possible that we have a branch at the start of the universe which is repeatedly creating an infinite loop of new universe branches creating an infinite number of possible copies, variations and branches that did not exist before and paralleling time lines if we assume time to be a set flow with events playing out along it as previous with the only variation being the options of events that were chosen. You would literally need to exterminate the universe to stop it from creating alternate branches that don't fit in the Bioshock set.

You are saying at the same time that they are ethereal beings without ability to interact with the physical beyond rowing boats and holding objects and manifesting themselves as ethereal exposition spirits and then giving them god like powers over destination and determination itself!

I wouldn't say they have limited abilities after all they have the ability to drag an infinite amount of Bookers across time and space, presumably against his will initially and interact with physical objects. If they so deemed they could have literally teleported all Comstocks in the multi-verse to a hellish version of earth where they would have suffocated to death and fixed the problem like that if they at all chose to. If we suppose their meddling was powerful enough and that it could continue to a point where they literally could affect an infinite amount of universes simultaneously to stop them from existing then they really are just a bunch of colossal dicks and the whole bit about feeling remorse and shit was a big fat lie, they have become trickster gods and in their infinite boredom chose to kill literally an infinite amount of people for chuckles, I highly doubt Levine intended any of that so we then have to conclude that the answer is no.

The multiverse is very much intact and the Luteces exist very much like the floating particles. Though for some reason they gained the ability to travel through dimensions rather than just being eternally suspended between two of them, I guess explosions and nuclear radiation can actually give you superpowers in this universe. Now they are rendered to stay in between universes, both unmoved by other universes and incapable of moving others, allowing them to travel through and draw people through the fabric between universes, but unable to actually influence events directly. Otherwise why did they not choke Booker themselves? It makes no sense in character, in story and in any way for them to be hopping around universes Mike Nelson Destroyer Of Worlds style. But then completely incapable of strangling a single dude to accomplish their objectives.

There is actually no reason to even assume the Luteces can influence any other universe BUT the one the brother came from and the one the sister came from. After all with time as their bitch they have a literally infinite amount of Bookers and an infinite amount of retries. This story does not need them to control more than two universes AND also explains why they are unable to strangle Booker. They are only capable of opening one hole between their two universes because they literally exist in between the fabric of both. Sure they can show up anywhere themselves, but they never actually take you to any universe except the first one, that's always Elizabeths job. This would both safe them from appearing as murderous demon gods and basically the exact opposite of their characterization and at the same time solve many of the issues you have when introducing ethereal dimension hopping beings.

Not to mention that again there is no reason given for why they are ethereal. Do you notice a pattern yet of this game saying smart sounding stuff, then flashing some bright lights to distract you, but forgetting to give any actual kind of explanation for anything at all?

Chapter 2: Reverse Vampire?

The whole phasing through universes and being in pain stuff is not quite as clear as you'd like to think, for example why did getting blood from a universe NOT of his own help him when the previously established method was to leave a piece of yourself in your own universe? Why was he in pain in the first place, what causes this reaction? Why was he still in pain even though you established a scenario in which you acclimate easily that he already had fulfilled? He already left small pieces of his body in the previous universe.

That is a very big problem here. Two different methods of anchoring. One is keep a piece of you, shouldn't really matter WHAT it is, just that it is literally from you, in your home universe, which means nobody should be bleeding and in pain because everyone loses tons of hair and skin cells. This should anchor them in their home universe. There is no reason why a pinky would have a different effect. It is made up from the same cells as your skin flakes, which are all over your home universe. Does it need to be a certain amount of weight? Because that pinky is rotting pretty hard not being attached to anything and all that. So I don't know if I would favour something as impermanent as flesh and bone as an anchor. Not to mention that allot of upper-class families used to keep the umbilical cord of their children as a memento. Technically then I could hop universes and experience no problems at all because my umbilical cord is in a box in my own universe. So method one already makes no sense because the rules are not established at all and of course by logic nobody should have trouble travelling because they leave little bits of themselves all over their own universe and if that is to small an amount of tissue some people literally have a significant piece of their own tissue lying around somewhere, most certainly larger than a baby-pinky.

Second method is to acclimate yourself to the universe. Mental stimulation with familiar consistent patterns, which is not at all true about the C-minor seeing as we could have chosen to make the C-minor slightly higher or lower in a different universe, after all someone had to make the instrument a certain way, meaning that it does not have to be exactly the same as the patients native universe just because it's a C-minor, another one of those bullshit constants used as plothole filler. Followed by donation of tissue from the universe you just travelled to. It makes no sense for it to be blood because blood is only there for 200 days max after which the dead cells are removed. Had she said a bone marrow transplant it would have made sense because now a continuous amount of blood-cells native to this particular universe are being made. However this makes no sense at a fundamental level. Why would receiving tissue from the universe you are attempting to acclimate to help this process? It would kill you before it would manage to cure you. This is some homoeopathic level of bullshit right here where rubbing your eyes with salt will cure you of your conjunctivitis.

You are transfusing a vital liquid (treating blood as a liquid for sake of argument) out of the body and replacing it with the same liquid from the same universe whose very fabric is causing severe injury to the body. You are literally pumping him full of the stuff that is killing him. Particles from this universe. Also seeing as in a different universe it was a male sperm and not a female sperm there is no reason to even assume they have the same blood type. They could be completely incompatible, meaning it is both an unviable method to gain a transfusion from your alternate personality and makes no sense because there is no reason why your form would stabilize because you gained a part of this universe rather than go back and chop off your pinky in your own universe. You are still comprised of the same atoms from your universe that were literally being assaulted by the ones in this universe. Though why that happened at all is another constant and variables thing seeing as there would literally be no reason for you to undergo what is basically a universe transplant rejection because both universes are exactly identical, again if this was at all consistent and we were actually given a reason for why this happened I might have excused it and propped it up with suspension of disbelief, however there is no explanation at all and thus it is bullshit for even by it's own logic this should not happen and there is no scientific reason for why an identical universe to yours, speaking in terms of natural laws here, would reject your presence like it's a conscious living body or something.

The whole die in another universe and you feel confusion and excruciating pain stuff is nonsense. With an infinite amount of parallel timelines you are literally dying in an infinite amount of universes at every conceivable point in time. You could be shot, trip and break your neck, contract cancer, die in a car crash, die of small pox because here nobody ever invented a vaccine and so on. Nobody could do anything because they are literally dying an infinite amount of deaths. It is the third biggest crock of shit in this game.

Chapter 3: QUANTUM!!! I'm not even going to bother.

Not because this would not be an interesting discussion, but because my knowledge would fall short. Therefore I have hired professor Susskind to explain it for me.

Here is a video series comprising of roughly 12 hours of explanation on quantum entanglement and why it has nothing to do with why lobbing off your pinky would help with universe hopping.

Chapter 4: Clarification.

Please clarify what you meant with the twist. I honestly didn't get what you were hinting at.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here