Hotline Miami 2 Devs Remove "Rape Scene" From Demo

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Hotline Miami 2 Devs Remove "Rape Scene" From Demo

Hotline Miami 2

Dennaton Games hopes it can "fix" a scene of implied sexual assault in Hotline Miami 2, saying that it actually has meaning to the two characters it involves.

The demo for the upcoming Hotline Miami 2 drew considerable criticism back in August for its inclusion of a scene in which the player's character pins down a female NPC and then drops his pants. It's quickly revealed that the whole thing is part of an in-game movie, but the segment nonetheless left a lot of players feeling very uncomfortable, to the point that the developers have cut it from the demo completely and are now trying to rework it.

"We were really sad that some people were so affected by it, because maybe they had been through something like that of their own. Maybe they had a terrible experience of their own that was triggered by the game. That was not intentional at all," Dennaton's Dennis Wedin told Rock, Paper, Shotgun. "We didn't add the scene just to be controversial. There is a meaning to these two characters. There's a lot more to them than just this scene."

But while the scene has been removed from the demo, Wedin suggested that it could reappear in the full game. "We're going to work with it, see if we can fix it," he said. "You get a bigger picture when you play the whole game, which is lost in the demo of course."

Wedin also said that players will learn more about the characters involved in the scene as the game progresses and noted that there will actually be a number of playable female characters in the full release.

Source: Rock, Paper, Shotgun

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Somehow I know how this is going to play out.

"Hey, look, I liked Hotline Miami a lot, but when I saw the demo...it brought back a lot of horrible things, alright? It made me relive the worst day of my life. I just thought you should know."

"Oh, shit, we didn't want to do that. I mean, we're fucking game makers. We want people to have fun, not relive trauma. Let's see if we can maybe rework it so it's less horrible."

Later:

Internet Hate Brigade: "WTFOMG TEH CENSORSHIPZ! STFU RAPE SURVIVORS, STOP DISCUSSING WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE FOR YOU"

It was kind of dumb of them to include it without the proper context in the demo, but this is probably the best move they could make. Take it out of the demo to avoid controversy, but include it in the full game (with the context of the scene intact). Hopefully people will keep their torches and pitchforks at home until we understand the purpose of the scene.

Yeah, I kinda saw this coming.
I can't help but feel we aren't missing something without it though.

As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.

Rutskarn:
Somehow I know how this is going to play out.

"Hey, look, I liked Hotline Miami a lot, but when I saw the demo...it brought back a lot of horrible things, alright? It made me relive the worst day of my life. I just thought you should know."

"Oh, shit, we didn't want to do that. I mean, we're fucking game makers. We want people to have fun, not relive trauma. Let's see if we can maybe rework it so it's less horrible."

Later:

Internet Hate Brigade: "WTFOMG TEH CENSORSHIPZ! STFU RAPE SURVIVORS, STOP DISCUSSING WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE FOR YOU"

The Plunk:
As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.

Wow. Literally two posts down.

Stay classy, Escapist.

They said it was a movie, correct? Have they tried adding a silhouette of an audience to the bottom of the screen with some grain effects?

The Plunk:

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

It's not even a 'real' rape scene. It's part of a movie in the game for crying out loud.

Whereas the player character can 'really' gun people down, slit their throats, cave their skulls in, jab their eyes out with a broken pool cue or throw boiling water in their faces and watch the skin melt off, and that's all perfectly fine as you said.

From the rest of the interview, it sounds like they are trying to push things and be controversial, but don't want to go too far into shock horror and make it obvious that it's all they've got. It comes off very, very fake and attention seeking. It reads like a well rehearsed lie that's dripping in insincerity and skeevy charm.

Murder and rape are not the same.

Stop complaining that murder is okay in video games and rape isn't. You will probably never murder someone. You will probably never know a murder victim. You will know a rape survivor. You will probably see multiple rape survivors every day.

For any medium of engagement to handle rape, it needs to be done with extreme care and consideration. It's not a check box, it's not bullet point, it's not a tool, it's not an effect and it's not a scene. It is intensely profound.

FargoDog:

Rutskarn:
Somehow I know how this is going to play out.

"Hey, look, I liked Hotline Miami a lot, but when I saw the demo...it brought back a lot of horrible things, alright? It made me relive the worst day of my life. I just thought you should know."

"Oh, shit, we didn't want to do that. I mean, we're fucking game makers. We want people to have fun, not relive trauma. Let's see if we can maybe rework it so it's less horrible."

Later:

Internet Hate Brigade: "WTFOMG TEH CENSORSHIPZ! STFU RAPE SURVIVORS, STOP DISCUSSING WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE FOR YOU"

The Plunk:
As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.

Wow. Literally two posts down.

Stay classy, Escapist.

I think that's 3. But who's counting :P

Maiev Shadowsong:
But you can imagine being pinned down, your clothes taken off, having someone on top of you, stealing from you, touching you, hurting you. You can imagine the screams. You can imagine the crying. It's painfully human.

(note: every time I say the word "rape scene" below I'm fully aware this wasn't even intended to be an actual rape scene)
I actually have an easier time imagining myself getting murdered, because I've seen it happen a million times in a million different ways in entertainment mediums, than imagining myself getting sexually assaulted / raped IRL. In fact, rape is probably most alien form of crime/violence to me than anything else, people constantly avoid talking/showing it and it is quickly kicked under the rug. I've seen horrendous torture scenes, realistic war movies where we realize just how much harm a single bullet actually does to a fleshy human, etc. Hell I think I've seen movies about how black people were treated like slaves and killed/butchered like cattle, but I don't recall seeing a colossal negative reaction from black people screaming "nooooo this reminds me too much of stuff etc".
But rape is a big no-no in terms of bringing up the realities of life in entertainment mediums.

Now I get that there ARE many survivors of rape / sexual assault and watching even 5 seconds of it in an 8 hour game could possibly make them completely lose their handle on reality and re-live their very worst nightmares. I believe that could happen for some people.

But I also believe that an artist should be able to release whatever they like, and then the consumers can criticize them on the finished product. When they do change something, it should be to make their final product better in their own eyes - not to satisfy the whims and cave-into demands of people.
The dumbest thing these guys did was release the DEMO with the goddamn rape scene - of course there is going to be a knee-jerk reaction to it, there's always a knee-jerk reaction to anything related to highlighting power-differences between the genders.
If the rape scene was simply released in the final game, I highly HIGHLY doubt it would have more than an absolutely tiny/negligible impact on people's (and reviewers'/critics') final ratings of it.

Developers need to stand their ground with what they intend to release in their game.

Yuuki:

Maiev Shadowsong:
But you can imagine being pinned down, your clothes taken off, having someone on top of you, stealing from you, touching you, hurting you. You can imagine the screams. You can imagine the crying. It's painfully human.

I actually have an easier time imagining myself getting murdered (because I've seen it happen a million times in a million different ways in entertainment mediums) than imagining myself getting sexually assaulted / raped. In fact, rape is probably more alien to me than anything else.

Now I get that there ARE many survivors of rape / sexual assault and watching even 5 seconds of it in an 8 hour game could possibly make them completely lose their handle on reality and re-live their very worst nightmares. I believe that could happen for some people.

But what I'm not OK with is developers being swayed/moved by such people to the point of having to change things in their game. An artist should be able to release whatever they like, and then the consumers can criticize them on the finished product.
The dumbest thing these guys did was release the DEMO with the goddamn rape scene - of course there is going to be a knee-jerk reaction to it, there's always a knee-jerk reaction to anything related to highlighting power-differences between the genders.
If the rape scene was simply released in the final game, I highly HIGHLY doubt it would have more than an absolutely tiny/negligible impact on people's (and reviewers'/critics') final ratings of it.

Keep in mind that I'm aware this wasn't intended to be a rape scene at all, I'm just referring to that for convenience.

That's the artists' choice. People spoke their mind and they decided to change things. For selling more copies and making more money, or because they agreed with the backlash. If they believed they were right, they wouldn't change it.

What I am so curious about is that devs repeatedly include these types of sexual abuse in trailers at all. It's like there's a bullet point in every trailer list that says, "-Must include only and all of the most edgy and provacative content."

Andy Chalk:
"We didn't add the scene just to be controversial. There is a meaning to these two characters. There's a lot more to them than just this scene... You get a bigger picture when you play the whole game, which is lost in the demo of course."

This is the case in every single game like this (Heavy Rain and Tomb Raider, just to name a few). They are often of minimal impact or consequence in the games, and EVERY SINGLE GOD DANG TIME the devs are all, "Oh you just don't get it, you gotta play the full game to understand" and then proceed to show it in part to us anyways. They are included in trailers strictly for the shock factor, then immediately get defensive when they're "surprised" that people were shocked by it. And it almost always works against them. It ALWAYS sparks controversy, rape debate, and vilification of the entire gaming community. If you want your game to have an edgy character arc, try not including something like rape because it is essentially mainstream now. And people wonder why the Tropes vs Women videos exist [facepalm].

Listen, devs, if you want to include something like this in a character arc feel free to do it, just stop throwing it out there to the wolves in promo videos because of that "any publicity is good publicity" thing. Of every game I have played in my entire life all of the best (or even good in any way whatsoever) characters and stories are given the patience, breathing room, and respect to show themselves to the player only when they are ready. Bad things have been happening to characters in games long before now, but it is only now that it is the driving advertisement for the game and characters that people have had a problem with it. All of these games where someone comes out early for promotion and says, "but this rape is ESSENTIAL to her character growth" is shooting that character's growth in the foot. You might as well be grabbing our faces and shoving them into the screen screaming "CARE ABOUT THEM NOW, WHY WON'T YOU LISTEN!?"

To take the rape controversy out of it, heavily promoting this particular type of generic character backstory is the equivalent of promoting Empire Strikes Back to a non-Star Wars fan by saying, "Luke learning Darth Vader is his father right after getting his arm chopped off is essential to his character's growth." It may be true, but you've just made me hate everything about it because I wasn't allowed to slowly settle into it. Without the leadup a reveal like this too early has a negative impact.

Maiev Shadowsong:
That's the artists' choice. People spoke their mind and they decided to change things. For selling more copies and making more money, or because they agreed with the backlash. If they believed they were right, they wouldn't change it.

We'll see if it's in the final game.

In fact I believe even if they kept it in the final game, almost nobody will bring it up because the "hotline maiami rape scene omfg" bandwagon will have long passed. That's how these things tend to work, knee-jerk reaction bandwagons.
Golden example: Lara Croft "rape scene". MASSIVE knee-jerk reaction when it was shown in the trailer. Once it was released as part of the full game, nobody gave a fuck. I repeat: nobody gave a single fuck. Not because it didn't turn out to be a rape scene and the guy was simply trying to kill her (and then she shoots him in the face), we could still have seen MANY protests from people claiming that it reminded them of the time they had their hands tied and were felt-up and then pinned-down by their assaulter. No, it's just that the particular bandwagon for that game/issue had already passed. Toot toot.

Yuuki:

Maiev Shadowsong:
That's the artists' choice. People spoke their mind and they decided to change things. For selling more copies and making more money, or because they agreed with the backlash. If they believed they were right, they wouldn't change it.

We'll see if it's in the final game.

In fact I believe even if they kept it in the final game, almost nobody will bring it up because the "hotline maiami rape scene omfg" bandwagon will have long passed. That's how these things tend to work, knee-jerk reaction bandwagons.
Golden example: Lara Croft "rape scene". MASSIVE knee-jerk reaction when it was shown in the trailer. Once it was released as part of the full game, nobody gave a fuck. I repeat: nobody gave a single fuck. Bandwagon for that game had already passed. Toot toot.

Congratulations on being dismissive towards the concerns of rape victims and attempting to label their opinions "bandwagons."

I have been the victim of a violent assault, is that somehow "less" terrible than being raped? If for a while I found images of violence to be traumatic would you agree to censor all the games? Didn't think so..

Maiev Shadowsong:
Congratulations on being dismissive towards the concerns of rape victims and attempting to label their opinions "bandwagons."

Please, there's no point trying to poke the bee hive by saying stuff like that. That exact sentence has been said countless times before in the countless other gender-politics-threads, I recommend digging them up and going through people's responses because I'm a tad exhausted at this point.

Pretty much every single "this offends me, remove it! remove it!" topic that has been brought up in the last 2-3 years regarding gaming has been a bandwagon that has swiftly passed, this is absolutely no different.

This is where the "deal with it" attitude would've been the best. Some people get raped, some people get shot, some people see other people (sometimes friends) get killed horribly. Does this mean that every game needs to take it into consideration? No.

If they're going to fix their game about a drugged psychopath murderer for every thing people might find offensive because of stuff that they've gone through, there wouldn't be much left in it.

Rutskarn:
Somehow I know how this is going to play out.

"Hey, look, I liked Hotline Miami a lot, but when I saw the demo...it brought back a lot of horrible things, alright? It made me relive the worst day of my life. I just thought you should know."

"Oh, shit, we didn't want to do that. I mean, we're fucking game makers. We want people to have fun, not relive trauma. Let's see if we can maybe rework it so it's less horrible."

Later:

Internet Hate Brigade: "WTFOMG TEH CENSORSHIPZ! STFU RAPE SURVIVORS, STOP DISCUSSING WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE FOR YOU"

Internet Hate Brigade? How about the silent majority who wanted the developers to just do their own thing, and didn't say anything before because there was nothing bad with it in the first place.

Maiev Shadowsong:
*Snip*

Murder and rape are not the same.

*Snip*

I'm going to agree with Maiev Shadowsong here, Killing and Rape are two different kinds of evil but there is one important distinction you have to keep in mind with this discussion.

Sometimes Killing is justified, but Rape is NEVER justified.

Killing is the act of taking another human being's life away. There are situations where Killing is, regrettably, a justifiable course of action or the only course of action. For example, I don't think that anyone would argue that Killing isn't justified when a person is confronted by an angry mob intent on doing grievous bodily harm to a them or killing them or their loved ones. Likewise killing is justified when a lone psycho with a gun storms a workplace and takes innocent people hostage.

Let's contrast this with Rape which is the act of forcibly using someone else's body for the rapist's sick pleasure. It's never justified. There is never a situation where Rape is a justifiable course of action, and believe me the Japanese have been trying for DECADES to contrive one with no success. When you get down to it, all Rape is is using someone else's body so you can get off. There's never a higher cause and Rape can never serve any other purpose than the Rapists pleasure.

You're all missing the point. It's not about what is good or bad or justified or whatever else. The question is whether the game should be changed to protect the emotionally vulnerable. The answer is no.

Torque2100:
I'm going to agree with Maiev Shadowsong here, Killing and Rape are two different kinds of evil but there is one important distinction you have to keep in mind with this discussion.

Sometimes Killing is justified, but Rape is NEVER justified.

Killing is the act of taking another human being's life away. There are situations where Killing is, regrettably, a justifiable course of action or the only course of action. For example, I don't think that anyone would argue that Killing isn't justified when a person is confronted by an angry mob intent on doing grievous bodily harm to a them or killing them or their loved ones. Likewise killing is justified when a lone psycho with a gun storms a workplace and takes innocent people hostage.

Let's contrast this with Rape which is the act of forcibly using someone else's body for the rapist's sick pleasure. It's never justified. There is never a situation where Rape is a justifiable course of action, and believe me the Japanese have been trying for DECADES to contrive one with no success. When you get down to it, all Rape is is using someone else's body so you can get off. There's never a higher cause and Rape can never serve any other purpose than the Rapists pleasure.

There is never a reason for torture either, it's just someone forcing pain (or grievous harm) on someone else's body for their sick pleasure. But that hasn't stopped it being a pretty common part of movies...in some cases entire franchises being based around brutal torture.

I think rape is a special case because the majority of convicted rapists are males with female victims. Abortion is also treated extremely carefully because it's only something that happens to women, and society naturally tends to be vastly more protective of women than men (simply something that has gone without saying for thousands of years), in war there are no worse casualties than women (and children).
Torture and murder is fine because it can happen to any gender, right?

Demonreach:
You're all missing the point. It's not about what is good or bad or justified or whatever else. The question is whether the game should be changed to protect the emotionally vulnerable. The answer is no.

So far it's mostly been about weighing rape as a more serious crime than anything that can possibly happen to a human being. Many people continue to insist that rape is the most heinous crime and should NEVER be shown in any entertainment medium under any circumstances, even if said medium has been strictly classified R18 and contains endless brutality/gore/violence.

All those things are far away from reality and rape is the only thing that really matters. That's the primary argument I've heard in this thread.

I'll bring up something that has been more censored/avoided in media than even rape - the killing of children. It happens a LOT in real life, but you will have extreme difficulty finding scenes in entertainment mediums where we are shown someone killing a child in front of our very eyes. Whenever it does happen, it's simply "implied" and never shown, e.g. we may be shown the dead kid's body (the result) but that's the extent of it. It's simply on the list of "never show to human beings, ever".

Phrozenflame500:
I question the need for it, but as long as the devs did it to genuinely make it better rather then to appease people I'm ok with it.

Amen.
/thread

This thread will go has gone downhill fast.

I question the need for it, but as long as the devs did it to genuinely make it better rather then to appease people I'm ok with it.

Demonreach:
You're all missing the point. It's not about what is good or bad or justified or whatever else. The question is whether the game should be changed to protect the emotionally vulnerable. The answer is no.

Actually I think it's the folks on your side who are mostly missing the point here.

You whinge about censorship and about the freedom of the artist - well, the artists here made a choice to edit their scene.

Read that again.

The artists made a choice.

Their scene was making people uncomfortable. This wasn't the reaction they wanted. So now they're reworking the scene, so that they reaction the audience has is closer to the reaction they wanted to invoke. They made a decision.

Maybe you people should respect it.

In this case in was probably not the best idea to show that scene in the demo as getting the right context for what was happening is not going to be very easy in such a short space of time. Plus internet is not going to wait around for clarifications before going into full on rage mode.

I do think if devs want to tackle these controversial issues in their games they should be able to. Though it would be probably be best from now on to not mention it before releasing and just let people make their own minds up when they play the game themselves, experiencing everything in the proper context. That we can avoid all these controversies based on small pieces of information we actually know.

In this case I think the devs are probably doing the right thing re-evaluating the scene to make it better if they think that they aren't currently handling it as best they could. Though I hope they don't actually completely remove because some people where offended. If you start going down that road it may start getting very hard to draw a line of acceptable and not acceptable.

Do we now change games that depict brutal murders, as it may offend people close to a victim of a brutal murder?
Do we now change games that depict war, as it may be uncomfortable for war veterans?
Do we now change games that depict acts of crime, as it may offend victims of said crimes?

Granted each of these things are different to rape in many ways, and you could argue all day (and I bet this thread will) whether murder or rape is a more taboo act. However the principal in for all of them is the same. While they are all terrible acts that affect their victims and those close to them, this does not mean that they are off limits to being depicted in books, films, paintings, music and theatre for sake of not causing offence. Why should games be any different?

Trilligan:
They made a decision. Maybe you people should respect it.

But how could we protect Free Speech, if we are not even allowed to force the hands of artists to make them keep the scenes that we don't want them to remove???

Maiev Shadowsong:

You will probably never murder someone.

I like the implication that I'll probably rape someone.

Murder is alien to most of us. It's removed from our reality. We only see it in movies and we don't comprehend it. But sex is natural. We all have it and almost all of us want it. Rape poisons that. Rape takes away something we all feel and understand: choice. Free will. Power. It's personal. It's horrifying. And it's relatable.

Death is as natural as sex.

Are you suggesting that murder isn't an infringement of free will?

You can't ever imagine being murdered. Most of us will never be affected by it. But you can imagine being pinned down, your clothes taken off, having someone on top of you, stealing from you, touching you, hurting you. You can imagine the screams. You can imagine the crying. It's painfully human.

I'm sure most people can imagine being murdered far more vividly than they can imagine being raped.

Torque2100:

Sometimes Killing is justified, but Rape is NEVER justified.

You clearly haven't played Hotline Miami then.

Torque2100:

Maiev Shadowsong:
*Snip*

Murder and rape are not the same.

*Snip*

I'm going to agree with Maiev Shadowsong here, Killing and Rape are two different kinds of evil but there is one important distinction you have to keep in mind with this discussion.

Sometimes Killing is justified, but Rape is NEVER justified.

Killing is the act of taking another human being's life away. There are situations where Killing is, regrettably, a justifiable course of action or the only course of action. For example, I don't think that anyone would argue that Killing isn't justified when a person is confronted by an angry mob intent on doing grievous bodily harm to a them or killing them or their loved ones. Likewise killing is justified when a lone psycho with a gun storms a workplace and takes innocent people hostage.

Let's contrast this with Rape which is the act of forcibly using someone else's body for the rapist's sick pleasure. It's never justified. There is never a situation where Rape is a justifiable course of action, and believe me the Japanese have been trying for DECADES to contrive one with no success. When you get down to it, all Rape is is using someone else's body so you can get off. There's never a higher cause and Rape can never serve any other purpose than the Rapists pleasure.

^Pretty much this.
And you don't even have to go that extra mile by explaining. "Murder and rape are not the same thing" is should be enough to end this "But there's killing in games, so there should be raping too" bullshit argument.
Being horrible things is pretty much the only thing they have in common, so why should having one thing in entertainment media automatically make the other alright?

Besides that there's one more thing that people that defend rape in games forget when they talk about "the artist's choice". I hope you know what I'm up to when I say:

"When I say something not all to important that hurts somebody else a lot, it's not necessarily because I wanted to hurt that person. Sometimes I just didn't think about that it could be hurting someone."

Nice avatar btw. :)

This is smart of them, if the scene is taken out of context, as it appears to be in the demo, and it requires you to know things that the demo doesn't show, then it shouldn't be in the demo.

The Plunk:

I'm sure most people can imagine being murdered far more vividly than they can imagine being raped.

Torque2100:

Sometimes Killing is justified, but Rape is NEVER justified.

You clearly haven't played Hotline Miami then.

Please tell me two things, A) How it feels to be murdered, which you can't since you aren't dead, and B) Where was there EVER a rape scene in Hotline Miami? And how was/would it be justified at all?

I think this still shows gaming's adolescence. Removing it from the demo without context, very good move, should not have bothered putting story elements in a demo, just gameplay. But keep it in the game because it can be a powerful story motivator and good imagery. Movies, books and other things are ok with r18 stuff doing this provide it makes sense, such as watchmen.

Torque2100:

Maiev Shadowsong:
*Snip*

Murder and rape are not the same.

*Snip*

I'm going to agree with Maiev Shadowsong here, Killing and Rape are two different kinds of evil but there is one important distinction you have to keep in mind with this discussion.

Sometimes Killing is justified, but Rape is NEVER justified.

Killing is the act of taking another human being's life away. There are situations where Killing is, regrettably, a justifiable course of action or the only course of action. For example, I don't think that anyone would argue that Killing isn't justified when a person is confronted by an angry mob intent on doing grievous bodily harm to a them or killing them or their loved ones. Likewise killing is justified when a lone psycho with a gun storms a workplace and takes innocent people hostage.

Let's contrast this with Rape which is the act of forcibly using someone else's body for the rapist's sick pleasure. It's never justified. There is never a situation where Rape is a justifiable course of action, and believe me the Japanese have been trying for DECADES to contrive one with no success. When you get down to it, all Rape is is using someone else's body so you can get off. There's never a higher cause and Rape can never serve any other purpose than the Rapists pleasure.

Up front I just want to say that overall I agree with what you have said, but one thing that I always see in these debates (that I read for reasons only a skilled psychologist could tell you) that I feel should be addressed is that killing someone in self defense is not murder. Murder can never be justified. If someone attacked me and killed me they have committed a murder (with varying degrees depending on intent), if I kill them I have not. Murder is a legal principle, not just the act of taking a life. This is the same reason that a soldier killing during wartime is not a murderer. Of course with manslaughter definitions do become somewhat muddied.

On Topic: It probably would have been a better idea to wait until the full context of the event could be made clear before releasing this scene, especially with what a powder-keg the inter-net's been over such issues in recent times.

Warachia:

A) How it feels to be murdered, which you can't since you aren't dead

I'm talking about people who haven't experienced being murdered or being raped. I imagine that being murdered is rather painful, don't you?

B) Where was there EVER a rape scene in Hotline Miami? And how was/would it be justified at all?

I meant that there was barely any justification for most of the mass-murder in Hotline Miami (other than the fact that all of the enemies were mobsters, but that changes by the second act when there's no justification at all). I'm not saying that rape is ever justified.

Trilligan:

Demonreach:
You're all missing the point. It's not about what is good or bad or justified or whatever else. The question is whether the game should be changed to protect the emotionally vulnerable. The answer is no.

Actually I think it's the folks on your side who are mostly missing the point here.

You whinge about censorship and about the freedom of the artist - well, the artists here made a choice to edit their scene.

Read that again.

The artists made a choice.

Their scene was making people uncomfortable. This wasn't the reaction they wanted. So now they're reworking the scene, so that they reaction the audience has is closer to the reaction they wanted to invoke. They made a decision.

Maybe you people should respect it.

The artists were forced to make that choice because of the ridiculous complaints that were put against their original choice, which was to have the "rape scene" in the demo in the first place. I don't blame the artists for changing their work due to this pressure, in fact I don't even really blame the people that complained, since I'm sure they were only doing what they thought was right. I just think it's sad that an artist should have to censor his own work in this way, and that people still have such a weird double standard when it comes to rape.

Hotline Miami was about a psychopath who spoke to voices in his head and traveled around Miami indiscriminately and brutally murdering dozens, probably hundreds of people. That people can seriously claim that a rape scene takes it "too far" boggles my mind. That people try to justify it, and claim that rape is somehow worse than murder or any other crimes, just worries me.

As long as they're not changing the game, just removing the rape(even though it's not) scene from the demo then I don't see much of a problem.

Still, I really don't think that the "Some people find this offensive so lets remove it" train of thought is the best way of going about things in general.

The Plunk:

Warachia:

A) How it feels to be murdered, which you can't since you aren't dead

I'm talking about people who haven't experienced being murdered or being raped. I imagine that being murdered is rather painful, don't you?

B) Where was there EVER a rape scene in Hotline Miami? And how was/would it be justified at all?

I meant that there was barely any justification for most of the mass-murder in Hotline Miami (other than the fact that all of the enemies were mobsters, but that changes by the second act when there's no justification at all). I'm not saying that rape is ever justified.

Aside from the pain I can't imagine what it would be like, would I be disappointed that I won't get to do the things I wanted to do? Would I be worried that the murderers might go after my friends and family next? Or would I just want the pain to end? My point was that you can't know unless it happens to you.

I apologize for that second one then, I misconstrued that since you only replied to the rape quote, no the mass murder (mostly) isn't justified, which is a good thing since you are clearly not playing as the hero in that game, just a nut job who's killing mafia members, but at the same time, when you are in the building it becomes justified (as far as the player is concerned) because if you don't kill them they WILL kill you. In some missions you just walk into the lobby of some place and they immediately gun you down for no reason, imagine if the character wanted to turn himself in during that police station mission, you enter the front door, and get shot in the face, in those cases I'd say it is justified, but I can't say the rape was ever justified, just like how the two really brutal/torture murders in the game aren't justified.

Maiev Shadowsong:
You will probably never know a murder victim. You will know a rape survivor. You will probably see multiple rape survivors every day.

I know more murder victims than I do rape survivors.

Because what people tend to forget is that a single murder has many victims.

The Mother and Father that lose a child.
The person that loses a sibling.
The child that loses a parent.
The person who loses a friend.

Not to forget those that may be unfortunate enough to witness said murder. Seeing someone laying on the ground half their head missing severely traumatizes a lot of people.

Sure Murder and Rape aren't the same thing. But don't try and play one up as worse than the other.

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