Hotline Miami 2 Devs Remove "Rape Scene" From Demo

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Trilligan:

Father Time:
what makes dismissing rape victims concerns worse than dismissing anyone else's concerns? We're Waiting

When you're talking about depictions of rape, it stands to reason that somebody who is a victim of rape would have far, FAR more insight into the ramifications of that depiction than somebody who had not been raped.

Bullshit. You don't become an expert on how media effects people just because you had non-consensual sex.

Trilligan:

The fact that they have been through that kind of trauma and know what it's like makes them, unfortunately, far more qualified than you to judge what is or isn't okay in this regard.

OK is subjective, and in my view it's all OK because it's all fiction.

Father Time:

Not as bad as the feminists who complain endlessly whenever rape is mentioned within a joke or within a game.

Yeah, showing empathy towards victims is definitely a worse offense than showing antipathy towards them because you didn't get your way.

Father Time:
Their opinion means precisely fuck all.

The opinion of rape survivors on the topic of rape in video games means "fuck all."

I see...

Well, that has certain implications for what your opinion matters on the topic.

Zachary Amaranth:

Father Time:

Not as bad as the feminists who complain endlessly whenever rape is mentioned within a joke or within a game.

Yeah, showing empathy towards victims is definitely a worse offense than showing antipathy towards them because you didn't get your way.

There's that victim defense again. Oh they were victims so you have to be extra super nice to them forever. They were offended by a joke on what I think is ludicrous grounds and made ridiculous claims, so I'll mock them for it. Same if a scientologist got offended by South Park.

Father Time:

Zachary Amaranth:

Father Time:

Not as bad as the feminists who complain endlessly whenever rape is mentioned within a joke or within a game.

Yeah, showing empathy towards victims is definitely a worse offense than showing antipathy towards them because you didn't get your way.

There's that victim defense again. Oh they were victims so you have to be extra super nice to them forever. They were offended by a joke on what I think is ludicrous grounds and made ridiculous claims, so I'll mock them for it. Same if a scientologist got offended by South Park.

A rape survivor is offended by the depiction of rape and you find that "ludicrous."

1: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ludicrous

A rape survivor being offended by rape? How "laughable" and "worthy of derisive scorn."

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:
Their opinion means precisely fuck all.

The opinion of rape survivors on the topic of rape in video games means "fuck all."

Don't straw man me.

I said their opinion on whether rape in video games has an effect on players means fuck all. Mine does too. Difference is that the people claiming it'll support a rape culture or whatever have to prove their claims.

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

Zachary Amaranth:

Yeah, showing empathy towards victims is definitely a worse offense than showing antipathy towards them because you didn't get your way.

There's that victim defense again. Oh they were victims so you have to be extra super nice to them forever. They were offended by a joke on what I think is ludicrous grounds and made ridiculous claims, so I'll mock them for it. Same if a scientologist got offended by South Park.

A rape survivor is offended by the depiction of rape and you find that "ludicrous."

1: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ludicrous

A rape survivor being offended by rape? How "laughable" and "worthy of derisive scorn."

We were talking about the Dickwolves comic not Hotline Miami 2.

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:
Their opinion means precisely fuck all.

The opinion of rape survivors on the topic of rape in video games means "fuck all."

Don't straw man me.

I said their opinion on whether rape in video games has an effect on players means fuck all. Mine does too. Difference is that the people claiming it'll support a rape culture or whatever have to prove their claims.

Yes, clearly someone affected by a crime would know nothing about the effect of the crime. Oh wait.

Father Time:

There's that victim defense again. Oh they were victims so you have to be extra super nice to them forever. They were offended by a joke on what I think is ludicrous grounds and made ridiculous claims, so I'll mock them for it. Same if a scientologist got offended by South Park.

See, what I said was "empathy" and "antipathy." You had to misconstrue that as some ridiculous notion that you had to treat them as special snowflakes. "Don't be a dick" doesn't seem like it should be that hard a concept to work with, and I certainly don't see why you or anyone else should be as offended/hostile as they are towards it.

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

There's that victim defense again. Oh they were victims so you have to be extra super nice to them forever. They were offended by a joke on what I think is ludicrous grounds and made ridiculous claims, so I'll mock them for it. Same if a scientologist got offended by South Park.

A rape survivor is offended by the depiction of rape and you find that "ludicrous."

1: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ludicrous

A rape survivor being offended by rape? How "laughable" and "worthy of derisive scorn."

We were talking about the Dickwolves comic not Hotline Miami 2.

And the point is exactly the same.

A rape survivor is offended by the depiction of rape and you find that "ludicrous."

1: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ludicrous

A rape survivor being offended by rape? How "laughable" and "worthy of derisive scorn."

Or do you feel wolves made out of dicks that hold a captive for rape slavery isn't a depiction of rape? Because that would be "ludicrous."

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:
The opinion of rape survivors on the topic of rape in video games means "fuck all."

Don't straw man me.

I said their opinion on whether rape in video games has an effect on players means fuck all. Mine does too. Difference is that the people claiming it'll support a rape culture or whatever have to prove their claims.

Yes, clearly someone affected by a crime would know nothing about the effect of the crime. Oh wait.

Rape in real life is different than fictional rape. Just because you know the effect of one (and to repeat a rape victim wouldn't know how rape effects everyone) doesn't mean you know the effects of other.

Olikar:

Then you wont mind me ignoring your claim that one in four women suffer rape or other forms of sexual abuse since most of those statistics are made mainly up of an estimated number of unreported or unproven cases of rape (all we have to indicate for what is definitely true are proven rapes). Even then though your claim of one four is still a gross exaggeration regardless of whether or not you're taking unreported or unproven rapes into account.

Just because you choose to ignore the given statistics doesn't make them go away.

A statistical sampling of women I know, for instance, unfortunately matches the accepted numbers rather closely. The only gross part here is how many people are willing to deny that it's an issue.

Olikar:
Which is irrelevant because you said rape was something that women face and fear on a daily basis, not sexual harassment nor domestic abuse.

Since sexual harassment and domestic abuse are things that commonly and primarily affect women, I'd say the prevalence of those two phenomena is quite relevant to the existence of male privilege.

Olikar:
It is an analysis of these viewpoints in which it characterizes one viewpoint as privileged because it disagrees with a viewpoint which they characterize as oppressed and thus you have to respect the 'oppressed' social groups opinion on certain matters otherwise you are exerting your privilege.

Again, you show your ignorance.

Privilege exists irrespective of characterization or analysis. Group A has it better than Group B, ergo Group A is privileged.

Olikar:
I don't respect the viewpoint of anyone (regardless of their privilege or lack of privilege) who thinks art or comedy should censor itself on certain issues to avoid offending people

An offensive joke that fails to be funny is just offensive. If your joke causes offense and not laughter, then your joke is a failure, and you need better material. If the only material you can come up with is rape jokes, then you should look for work elsewhere, cause you're a pretty terrible comic.

In any case. Censorship is the act of a governing body, and its mechanism is law. Claims of censorship in this case - and cases like it, are absurd.

Olikar:
the privilege-brigade will attempt to characterize this as a lack of understanding (on account of my 'privilege') of what it's like to be the oppressed (the people being offended) and that my lack of respect is a symptom of privilege but in reality this is nothing more than a diversion from the actual issue at hand.

It speaks directly to the issue at hand, which is your lack of empathy and inability to admit that other people don't have the same privilege you have.

Olikar:
I don't recall him dismissing other people at all based on privilege, but simply on the fact they where talking shite. (although his stupid comment about men being more mature was shite as well.)

No, he wasn't dismissing people based on privilege, he was dismissing people because he can't see past his OWN privilege - much like you. And, consequently, your judgement of his stupid comments is actually rather close to my judgement of your stupid comments.

In any case, nothing stands to be gained from this conversation. If you won't acknowledge the need for empathy and understanding of others then there really is no point talking to you at all.

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

Don't straw man me.

I said their opinion on whether rape in video games has an effect on players means fuck all. Mine does too. Difference is that the people claiming it'll support a rape culture or whatever have to prove their claims.

Yes, clearly someone affected by a crime would know nothing about the effect of the crime. Oh wait.

Rape in real life is different than fictional rape. Just because you know the effect of one (and to repeat a rape victim wouldn't know how rape effects everyone) doesn't mean you know the effects of other.

Knowing how rape effects them, wouldn't mean they know how the depiction of rape effects them... I see. Well, you know, I gotta imagine it gives me a pretty good idea. There's this thing, right, where experiencing something and then knowing how seeing it effects you, gives you this amazing power to know how seeing something effects you. Amazing, I know!

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:
A rape survivor is offended by the depiction of rape and you find that "ludicrous."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ludicrous

A rape survivor being offended by rape? How "laughable" and "worthy of derisive scorn."

We were talking about the Dickwolves comic not Hotline Miami 2.

And the point is exactly the same.

A rape survivor is offended by the depiction of rape and you find that "ludicrous."

1: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ludicrous

A rape survivor being offended by rape? How "laughable" and "worthy of derisive scorn."

Or do you feel wolves made out of dicks that hold a captive for rape slavery isn't a depiction of rape? Because that would be "ludicrous."

It isn't

depict
show or represent by a drawing, painting, or other art form.

Mentioned is not depicting.

And the idea that people mentioning exaggerated rape by a fictional animal (with a fictional victim) is offensive is ludicrous to me. So is the idea that it'll support a rape culture.

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

We were talking about the Dickwolves comic not Hotline Miami 2.

And the point is exactly the same.

A rape survivor is offended by the depiction of rape and you find that "ludicrous."

1: amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2: meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ludicrous

A rape survivor being offended by rape? How "laughable" and "worthy of derisive scorn."

Or do you feel wolves made out of dicks that hold a captive for rape slavery isn't a depiction of rape? Because that would be "ludicrous."

It isn't

depict
show or represent by a drawing, painting, or other art form.

Mentioned is not depicting.

And the idea that people mentioning exaggerated rape by a fictional animal (with a fictional victim) is offensive is ludicrous to me. So is the idea that it'll support a rape culture.

You find it worthy of scorn and intentionally offensive laughter that someone is upset by something. HILARIOUS.

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:
Yes, clearly someone affected by a crime would know nothing about the effect of the crime. Oh wait.

Rape in real life is different than fictional rape. Just because you know the effect of one (and to repeat a rape victim wouldn't know how rape effects everyone) doesn't mean you know the effects of other.

Knowing how rape effects them, wouldn't mean they know how the depiction of rape effects them... I see.

Man if I had a dollar for every straw man you're giving this could be my second job.

So now we've gone to 'they know how it effects them', so do a lot of other non-rape victims. And if they know playing it will have a bad effect on them they can simply not play it.

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:
And the point is exactly the same.

A rape survivor is offended by the depiction of rape and you find that "ludicrous."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ludicrous

A rape survivor being offended by rape? How "laughable" and "worthy of derisive scorn."

Or do you feel wolves made out of dicks that hold a captive for rape slavery isn't a depiction of rape? Because that would be "ludicrous."

It isn't

depict
show or represent by a drawing, painting, or other art form.

Mentioned is not depicting.

And the idea that people mentioning exaggerated rape by a fictional animal (with a fictional victim) is offensive is ludicrous to me. So is the idea that it'll support a rape culture.

You find it worthy of scorn and intentionally offensive laughter that someone is upset by something. HILARIOUS.

No I find it
amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity

Do you just look for the worst interpretations you can?

Zachary Amaranth:

Father Time:

There's that victim defense again. Oh they were victims so you have to be extra super nice to them forever. They were offended by a joke on what I think is ludicrous grounds and made ridiculous claims, so I'll mock them for it. Same if a scientologist got offended by South Park.

See, what I said was "empathy" and "antipathy." You had to misconstrue that as some ridiculous notion that you had to treat them as special snowflakes.

Empathy does not mean censoring yourself whenever they find something objectionable. I can feel bad for what happened, and still mock them for something else they chose to do. I mean it's one thing to get offended, but to go on a self-righteous crusade over it.

Father Time:
You don't become an expert on how media effects people just because you had non-consensual sex.

I think you mean 'because you were raped'. Don't try to soften the implications of that by pretending it's just another form of sex. That's vile.

In any case, what you asked was why their opinion on it matters more. The answer is obvious - it matters more because they have first-hand experience with the trauma.

Father Time:
OK is subjective, and in my view it's all OK because it's all fiction.

Your opinion has no relevant framework in which to place rape as a personal trauma, so for you it remains an abstraction. It's not something you have to live with or worry about.

That isn't the case for a rape survivor. They do have a framework in which rape fits. It is no longer an abstraction. Their opinion with it is grounded in reality - the reality of their history - and therefore is more tangible than your opinion, which is based only on rape in a conceptual sense. They have a better understanding of it than you do, and that gives their opinion extra weight.

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

Rape in real life is different than fictional rape. Just because you know the effect of one (and to repeat a rape victim wouldn't know how rape effects everyone) doesn't mean you know the effects of other.

Knowing how rape effects them, wouldn't mean they know how the depiction of rape effects them... I see.

Man if I had a dollar for every straw man you're giving this could be my second job.

So now we've gone to 'they know how it effects them', so do a lot of other non-rape victims. And if they know playing it will have a bad effect on them they can simply not play it.

People that know how it effects them, talking about how it effects them. The nerve!

Father Time:

Empathy does not mean censoring yourself whenever they find something objectionable.

But antipathy is raging against people when they do consider the feelings of those who find something objectionable.

How horrible to be this mildly inconvenienced.

Quadocky:
I don't think video games are ready for the subject of Rape. There is just too much personal emotional nuance.

Judging from the "discussion" that is raised on every "issue" in videogames, I'm not sure games are ready for stories at all. Perhaps we should wait 30 years for everyone to mature a bit. We could revert back to ATARI 2600 type stories for now.

Trilligan:

In any case, what you asked was why their opinion on it matters more. The answer is obvious - it matters more because they have first-hand experience with the trauma.

So? That gives them no insight into how virtual rape effects other people or what the consequences of fake rape would be.

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:
Knowing how rape effects them, wouldn't mean they know how the depiction of rape effects them... I see.

Man if I had a dollar for every straw man you're giving this could be my second job.

So now we've gone to 'they know how it effects them', so do a lot of other non-rape victims. And if they know playing it will have a bad effect on them they can simply not play it.

People that know how it effects them, talking about how it effects them. The nerve!

You're missing the point. Everyone knows how it effects them. Why do their opinions merit more concern then someone who was offended by the blood, or the gore or the the fact that it was set in the 80's?

Zachary Amaranth:

Father Time:

Empathy does not mean censoring yourself whenever they find something objectionable.

But antipathy is raging against people when they do consider the feelings of those who find something objectionable.

How horrible to be this mildly inconvenienced.

Mildly inconvenienced is the worst anyone can say about any of this. Oh no I might have to skip the demo of Hotline Miami or look away at that scene. What a minor inconvenience.

I don't think I've raged at the Hotline Miami devs have I?

Father Time:

I don't think I've raged at the Hotline Miami devs have I?

Who said you were raging at the devs? You've spent plenty of hate on "feminists" and people who show empathy towards fellow humans in the face of a mild inconvenience to you.

Yuuki:

Torque2100:
I'm going to agree with Maiev Shadowsong here, Killing and Rape are two different kinds of evil but there is one important distinction you have to keep in mind with this discussion.

Sometimes Killing is justified, but Rape is NEVER justified.

Killing is the act of taking another human being's life away. There are situations where Killing is, regrettably, a justifiable course of action or the only course of action. For example, I don't think that anyone would argue that Killing isn't justified when a person is confronted by an angry mob intent on doing grievous bodily harm to a them or killing them or their loved ones. Likewise killing is justified when a lone psycho with a gun storms a workplace and takes innocent people hostage.

Let's contrast this with Rape which is the act of forcibly using someone else's body for the rapist's sick pleasure. It's never justified. There is never a situation where Rape is a justifiable course of action, and believe me the Japanese have been trying for DECADES to contrive one with no success. When you get down to it, all Rape is is using someone else's body so you can get off. There's never a higher cause and Rape can never serve any other purpose than the Rapists pleasure.

There is never a reason for torture either, it's just someone forcing pain (or grievous harm) on someone else's body for their sick pleasure. But that hasn't stopped it being a pretty common part of movies...in some cases entire franchises being based around brutal torture.

I think rape is a special case because the majority of convicted rapists are males with female victims.

Really? Rape is only seen as a big deal because it's a "mostly women's issue"?

The U.S. Military would disagree.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/20/victims-of-sex-assaults-in-military-are-mostly-sil/?page=all

In 2012, 26,000 rapes. 12,000 women, and 14,000 men.

Rape is an issue for everyone. Men and women. It doesn't matter who gets raped more. Anyone who thinks otherwise, isn't connected to reality.

As for them keeping it in the game? It's there choice in the end. If they really think they need it, they'll keep it.

Zachary Amaranth:

Father Time:

I don't think I've raged at the Hotline Miami devs have I?

Who said you were raging at the devs? You've spent plenty of hate on "feminists" and people who show empathy towards fellow humans in the face of a mild inconvenience to you.

You mean the ones that were complaining about the comic?

They aren't showing empathy. They were the ones whining about how horrible it was and how much damage they think it'll do. And the definitely weren't concerned with the fictional victim in the comic. I saw some act like rape victims will all hate it, but that's not empathy that's just a blanket statement.

If emotionally vulnerable people were really that vulnerable, they wouldn't be playing a game where you stave someone's head in with a nine iron.

image
"A-At least I can die knowing this wasn't rape!"

Father Time:

You mean the ones that were complaining about the comic?

Which, of course, isthe only topic related to the matter you've addressed. Ever.

Come now.

Zachary Amaranth:

Father Time:

You mean the ones that were complaining about the comic?

Which, of course, isthe only topic related to the matter you've addressed. Ever.

Come now.

Well I'm struggling to remember which incident you're referring to.

It would be a real shame to see this taken out of the game just on principle. Killing people extremely violently is ok but a rape scene twice removed from reality (in a video game that turns out to be a movie in a video game) is a big deal? Sorry but if you dont like it too bad. Don't play the game. Trying to censor this is no different then the yahoo's that try to ban violent video games. Don't be a hypocrite just because now there is something you dont like in a game. Honestly if they do take it out I may not even buy the game.

Here we go again... I havent read whole thread, read some of the firs page and some of the last. Too much time needed for me

1) I can imagine quite a few things more traumatic than rape. I have seen consequences of non-rape actions. Shell-shocked baby that, for years, hided under the table on every loud sound, woman beaten up and left in the snow unable to move, paralyzed at age of 34, quicklime poured down the throar, quicklime thrown into eyes... compared to these rape doesn't look quite up for the title of worst. Add to that huge numbers of civilians loosing body parts to accidents or long forgotten war remains. Like getting your leg is blown off or your arm shredded in cogs of machine. Those are quite more traumatic I would say.
Plus when you ark person would they rather be raped or killed, i suspect rape would be preferred option in most cases

2) 4 in 1 rape rate was tracked down to a book written in sixties by prominent member of then "female liberation" movement. Book never referenced any source and prior citation was never found. That really stinks of BS, especially when researches, adjusted by factor of 10 to allow for 1 in 10 report rate suggest less than 1% of females sexually violated in their life time.

But all that doesn't make rape any less of deplorable crime that robs person of basic feeling of control of one's life and can lead to many psychological complications.

Never the less, it is my firm belief that censorship is not an option. Author must be free to fulfill his vision, unchanged and untouched. It is artist's duty to ignore any taboos and social "wisdoms" whenever they stand in the way of his narration.

This is only medium where this discussion is seen which proves that people don't think about games as something that has potential to be work of art, nor that game designers are artists. If they did we wouldn't have this discussions. And I see that as sad. Games are unique medium that incorporates all others but adds another layer over it, interactivity, which dwarfs all other aspects. Games like Papers Please, Spec Ops: The Line and Planescape Torment explore themes other mediums explored but could never affect us like interactive medium can. This medium has potential like nothing before it, and with new technologies like truly encompassing VR (oculus rift) and AR (rumored next gen Google glasses with lens projection) possibilities simply go far beyond my capability to imagine.

And yet we would castrate medium in it's infancy. Weren't all previous controversial mediums enough to learn anything? This medium already does more to protect it's audience with content warnings on packaging. Should not that be enough or was that enough to discredit games as artistic medium?

We should relize that there are games that conform to general demands, and games that tell story author created without caring for taboos. There there are games for fun and games for meaning. Like movies, music, books and any other medium, not all products are for everyone.

Father Time:

Maiev Shadowsong:

Father Time:

Man if I had a dollar for every straw man you're giving this could be my second job.

So now we've gone to 'they know how it effects them', so do a lot of other non-rape victims. And if they know playing it will have a bad effect on them they can simply not play it.

People that know how it effects them, talking about how it effects them. The nerve!

You're missing the point. Everyone knows how it effects them. Why do their opinions merit more concern then someone who was offended by the blood, or the gore or the the fact that it was set in the 80's?

Everyone knows how things effect them... Well, that's a genius statement right there. People know how they feel... Just breathtaking.

The point is for people to voice their opinion and tell others how they feel. It's called empathy.

Hazy:
If emotionally vulnerable people were really that vulnerable, they wouldn't be playing a game where you stave someone's head in with a nine iron.

image
"A-At least I can die knowing this wasn't rape!"

Thankfully, everyone who is set off by one thing is set off by everything else, so this is a fair and accurate statement.

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