Draw Harley Quinn Naked, Killing Herself, To Win DC Artist Contest

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Karloff:
[b]but the main thrust of the response was that a strong female character was being reduced to a sexualized nothing, and put in a situation that is, at best, unpleasant.

Since when was Harley a "strong female character"? She's nothing without "Mista J", her entire creation and focus of her existence is to be a sexual butt-monkey to a rampaging lunatic. Hell, her whole backstory boils down to: "Bright young woman earns a doctorate in psychology and throws it all away for a man."

Sorry to be a nit picker, I love Harley, but I would never characterize her as a strong female character.

Oh dear, a woman who has been depicted as being completely devoted to a homicidal maniac and is clinically insane is offing herself in a bathtub.

Clearly this is sexist that someone would dare draw an insane WOMAN doing something insane while being NAKED involving SUICIDE.

WOMAN
NAKED
SUICIDE

Ignore everything else. Those are the triggers of these social justice warriors.

Forget the other things like

FICTIONAL
INSANE
CARTOON
VILLAN

Reading the title really made me thing "Wth is wrong with you DC!?"
But reading the actual post on the DC website, with Harley in a bathtub, with water, and a ton of electrical appliances, that's not as creepily deranged as the title makes it out to be.
But I am upset they're offing Harley. Unless they turned her into Deadpool, or something, or the power goes out when she tries to drop them.

Breaking news: When people go to art school is highly likely they'll be forced to draw nude female models. Call the authorities.

Father Time:

-Dragmire-:

Father Time:
So why should we be outraged again? It's not even canon and it's a fictional person.

"The sexualisation of suicide is something I will not be putting effort into"

Newsflash: Not all nudity is sexual and sometimes nudity is appropriate given the context, like say for example a bath.

Seriously show that description to a nudist and ask them to find anything sexual about it. They'll either go for the chicken bikini or give you a disturbing stare like you get off on people killing themselves.

I've found that certain cultures have quite a bit of difficulty separating nudity and sexuality. Not too sure why but it's not that uncommon to find people who can't seem to separate them. On the other hand, comics have often sexualized female characters which could lead people to the assumption that DC wanted the character to be depicted that way.

I don't know how I feel about some of the debates brought up by this controversy but I do feel that this is a pretty dumb contest.

They never specified if it should be sexual so that's left up to the artist to decide.

I realize that, I'm just saying that it's not far fetched for people to assume that a sexual aspect to the picture is expected based on comics' track record when depicting their female characters. People tend to shape their understanding of new information to fit with preconceived notions.

Thoric485:
Breaking news: When people go to art school is highly likely they'll be forced to draw nude female models. Call the authorities.

Actually, you've just missed the entire point of the discussion. Nudity itself was never the issue.

Nice knee-jerk.

Abomination:
Oh dear, a woman who has been depicted as being completely devoted to a homicidal maniac and is clinically insane is offing herself in a bathtub.

Clearly this is sexist that someone would dare draw an insane WOMAN doing something insane while being NAKED involving SUICIDE.

WOMAN
NAKED
SUICIDE

Ignore everything else. Those are the triggers of these social justice warriors.

Forget the other things like

FICTIONAL
INSANE
CARTOON
VILLAN

Yes exactly Abomination! Thank you for pointing out so succinctly why this contest should be banned.

[facapalm] Classy DC...real classy...

Oh well, New 52 wasn't doing them any favors in regards to characterization anyways, however cool the stories have been.

I can't know the context, which I am hoping alleviates how bad the statement itself sounds. Still, it isn't like comic book characters haven't been subjected to worse, unfortunately.

i know that she is crazy but, well so your a cartoonist makes the point rather well

They should allow more freedom with this if they want aspiring artist let them get really creative with it, because the creative ones will do the best ideas.

Abomination:
Oh dear, a woman who has been depicted as being completely devoted to a homicidal maniac and is clinically insane is offing herself in a bathtub.

Clearly this is sexist that someone would dare draw an insane WOMAN doing something insane while being NAKED involving SUICIDE.

WOMAN
NAKED
SUICIDE

Ignore everything else. Those are the triggers of these social justice warriors.

Forget the other things like

FICTIONAL
INSANE
CARTOON
VILLAN

So at what point can we start calling Social Justice Warriors like these conservative?

Psychobabble:

Abomination:
Oh dear, a woman who has been depicted as being completely devoted to a homicidal maniac and is clinically insane is offing herself in a bathtub.

Clearly this is sexist that someone would dare draw an insane WOMAN doing something insane while being NAKED involving SUICIDE.

WOMAN
NAKED
SUICIDE

Ignore everything else. Those are the triggers of these social justice warriors.

Forget the other things like

FICTIONAL
INSANE
CARTOON
VILLAN

Yes exactly Abomination! Thank you for pointing out so succinctly why this contest should be banned.

Now I realize I was being sarcastic and I hope it was pretty obvious that I do not believe people should take this entire thing out of context... but I don't know if YOU were being sarcastic with your response.

Father Time:
So at what point can we start calling Social Justice Warriors like these conservative?

I do not think it's possible for the hyper-liberal to be called conservative. Similar methods of wanting stuff that's morally reprehensible to them banned to conservatives but at the same time they're just sticking up for the "oppressed" "minorities".

Same shit, same fan, different direction.

Abomination:

Psychobabble:

Abomination:
Oh dear, a woman who has been depicted as being completely devoted to a homicidal maniac and is clinically insane is offing herself in a bathtub.

Clearly this is sexist that someone would dare draw an insane WOMAN doing something insane while being NAKED involving SUICIDE.

WOMAN
NAKED
SUICIDE

Ignore everything else. Those are the triggers of these social justice warriors.

Forget the other things like

FICTIONAL
INSANE
CARTOON
VILLAN

Yes exactly Abomination! Thank you for pointing out so succinctly why this contest should be banned.

Now I realize I was being sarcastic and I hope it was pretty obvious that I do not believe people should take this entire thing out of context... but I don't know if YOU were being sarcastic with your response.

Father Time:
So at what point can we start calling Social Justice Warriors like these conservative?

I do not think it's possible for the hyper-liberal to be called conservative. Similar methods of wanting stuff that's morally reprehensible to them banned to conservatives but at the same time they're just sticking up for the "oppressed" "minorities".

Same shit, same fan, different direction.

I thought the whole point of the fan powered feces delivery system was that it got it shit in every direction? Unless you mean it's coming from a different direction in which case I agree.

This is why I stick to the DCAU. Harley turned out just fine in that incarnation after "Mr. J" kicked the bucket.


Well okay, maybe not "just fine," but alive and definitely not an electrocuted naked corpse in a bathtub.

Father Time:
I thought the whole point of the fan powered feces delivery system was that it got it shit in every direction? Unless you mean it's coming from a different direction in which case I agree.

You're right. It's all about other people being told what opinions they can or can not hold. A shitty situation no matter how you cut it.

JaredXE:

Karloff:
[b]but the main thrust of the response was that a strong female character was being reduced to a sexualized nothing, and put in a situation that is, at best, unpleasant.

Since when was Harley a "strong female character"? She's nothing without "Mista J", her entire creation and focus of her existence is to be a sexual butt-monkey to a rampaging lunatic. Hell, her whole backstory boils down to: "Bright young woman earns a doctorate in psychology and throws it all away for a man."

Sorry to be a nit picker, I love Harley, but I would never characterize her as a strong female character.

Couldn't be more this! She WAS a strong professional until that strength was broken because she couldn't cope with the Joker's insanity, she's a 'willing' door-mat and is treated as such constantly.

The competition does seem weirdly unsavory though....

Abomination:

Father Time:
I thought the whole point of the fan powered feces delivery system was that it got it shit in every direction? Unless you mean it's coming from a different direction in which case I agree.

You're right. It's all about other people being told what opinions they can or can not hold. A shitty situation no matter how you cut it.

The page, when it is in context, may prove to be quite good or quite bad. It's DC, so I have a suspicion, but I wouldn't automatically judge just on that.

The contest, though... when your go-to for "how to tell if people have talent as artists" is "how well do they draw Harley trying to kill herself, both humorously and non-humorously", you should not be surprised if people start saying, "Why the hell is that your measure of success?"

Because here's the thing.

DC would never have done a contest that ended with the Joker naked in the tub, resigned to his death.

Link? Am in the only one who missed the link to the aforementioned picture? It would be helpful if someone could link me it so I can make up my mind on the matter.

Friv:

Abomination:

Father Time:
I thought the whole point of the fan powered feces delivery system was that it got it shit in every direction? Unless you mean it's coming from a different direction in which case I agree.

You're right. It's all about other people being told what opinions they can or can not hold. A shitty situation no matter how you cut it.

The page, when it is in context, may prove to be quite good or quite bad. It's DC, so I have a suspicion, but I wouldn't automatically judge just on that.

The contest, though... when your go-to for "how to tell if people have talent as artists" is "how well do they draw Harley trying to kill herself, both humorously and non-humorously", you should not be surprised if people start saying, "Why the hell is that your measure of success?"

Because here's the thing.

DC would never have done a contest that ended with the Joker naked in the tub, resigned to his death.

I don't know where they have said that it's the only measure of someone being a capable artist, it's just the way this competition is being handled.

And no, the Joker wouldn't be in that scenario because the Joker isn't the type of character that would be in such a situation.

Harley, though, IS the type of character who could be in that type of situation and the way to get her there is very easily imagined: The Joker is dead.

Dear DC comics did you really actually announce that you want to see a female character drawn "naked" and committing suicide in public? As part of a competition of all things? You must have known people wouldn't check up on the context...

All male DC staff should present themselves as soon as possible to their nearest regional Sarkeesian center for well being for penectomies, female staff should report to one for re-education.

SwagLordYoloson:
Link? Am in the only one who missed the link to the aforementioned picture? It would be helpful if someone could link me it so I can make up my mind on the matter.

What picture? The topic is a request for a picture to be made. There is no picture.

And precisely nobody who is out there losing their shit over this contest would have lost that shit in the first place, if DC had done the exact same contest featuring the Joker instead of his sidekick.

Paradoxrifts:
And precisely nobody who is out there losing their shit over this contest would have lost that shit in the first place, if DC had done the exact same contest featuring the Joker instead of his sidekick.

Prove your statement please.

"I'm a sequential art student, and I find it a bit appalling that the requirement for panel 4 is essentially drawing a female character committing suicide naked," said one commenter, Seairra Willett, in response to DC's announcement. "The sexualisation of suicide is something I will not be putting effort into for a talent search,"

Hang on.

Being naked doesn't necessarily mean being sexualised.

Are backless gowns in hospitals sexualising women? Not at all.

Nudity can also represent vulnerability, the shedding of a past self, strength of personality, sexual prowess, clumsiness, embarrassment, hilarity, graceful beauty, or simply necessity and practicality. There's probably more. It's all about how you interpret it.

In my humble opinion, if you're accusing an image of sexualising women, you are the one sexualising them through that interpretation of an arguably sexless image.

I get that it's bullshit that it's simultaneously completely OK to draw women naked and cultivate such ridiculous insecurity in them at the same time.

But I don't think that this is an example of that trend.

Maiev Shadowsong:

Paradoxrifts:
And precisely nobody who is out there losing their shit over this contest would have lost that shit in the first place, if DC had done the exact same contest featuring the Joker instead of his sidekick.

Prove your statement please.

I don't need to. It is self evident, Maiev Shadowsong.

If DC wanted to put a sensually bare Joker in a steaming hot tub, with his pale creamy skin glistening with perspiration and tinged with a barest hint of a rosy hue from the heat, surrounded on all sides by functional white goods, the company would have to beat back the fan girls with a nail-encrusted stick.

Danny Ocean:

"I'm a sequential art student, and I find it a bit appalling that the requirement for panel 4 is essentially drawing a female character committing suicide naked," said one commenter, Seairra Willett, in response to DC's announcement. "The sexualisation of suicide is something I will not be putting effort into for a talent search,"

Hang on.

Being naked doesn't necessarily mean being sexualised.

Are backless gowns in hospitals sexualising women? Not at all.

Nudity can also represent vulnerability, the shedding of a past self, strength of personality, sexual prowess, clumsiness, embarrassment, hilarity, graceful beauty, or simply necessity and practicality. There's probably more. It's all about how you interpret it.

In my humble opinion, if you're accusing an image of sexualising women, you are the one sexualising them through that interpretation of the female form.

You're the one missing the point.

Nudity = not a problem.

They don't want an image where she happens to be nude though. They want to *see* nudity. They want her exposed. They want to see skin. They want the artist to make it known she has no clothes on. Her nakedness isn't par for course like it would be expected in the bath. Her figure isn't mundane. They go out of their way to demand her body be seen.

While she's killing herself.

Again, consider these: "Draw for me a woman killing herself in the bath."
"Draw for me a woman killing herself in the bath. Make sure she's naked."

Guess which one is seedy.

Paradoxrifts:

Maiev Shadowsong:

Paradoxrifts:
And precisely nobody who is out there losing their shit over this contest would have lost that shit in the first place, if DC had done the exact same contest featuring the Joker instead of his sidekick.

Prove your statement please.

I don't need to. It is self evident, Maiev Shadowsong.

If DC wanted to put a sensually bare Joker in a steaming hot tub, with his pale creamy skin glistening with perspiration and tinged with a barest hint of a rosy hue from the heat, surrounded on all sides by functional white goods, the company would have to beat back the fan girls with a nail-encrusted stick.

You don't need to, because it just is?

No. Prove your statement or it is worthless.

Here, let me try your logic: if the company did this with Joker, the fans would go nuts and hate it just as much as this.

Proof? I don't need any. It's self evident.

Oh, is that not true? Interesting.

Maiev Shadowsong:
You're the one missing the point.

No need to get defensive. I never said anyone else was wrong-- I said it depended on interpretation.

Nudity = not a problem.

They don't want an image where she happens to be nude though. They want to *see* nudity. They want her exposed. They want to see skin. They want the artist to make it known she has no clothes on. Her nakedness isn't par for course like it would be expected in the bath. Her figure isn't mundane. They go out of their way to demand her body be seen.

While she's killing herself.

And that doesn't scream 'sex' to me.

I know I'm rather an unusual individual in these things, but to be honest I don't think it's going to scream 'sex' to very many people (male or female) at all.

I imagine that in other people it will conjure the same sort of thoughts as in me. Of people having breakdowns in showers, crying to themselves with guns to their heads. Or individuals standing nude before mirrors judging themselves to death. Or a soldier regretting the person he became in a war, shedding their uniform, and then killing themselves.

Again, consider these: "Draw for me a woman killing herself in the bath."
"Draw for me a woman killing herself in the bath. Make sure she's naked."

Guess which one is seedy.

The second, of course, but the comparison you're making is not as apt as it first seems. Slight re-arrangements of words completely change the meaning of the sentence. The textual medium is missing tone and inflection and body language. He didn't write it, he said it, and he didn't say it like that:

Here's how to enter:

Read the rules & regulations listed below to confirm that you are eligible to enter DC Entertainment's Open Talent Search and agree to the terms and conditions.

Read the following script page and give us your original artistic interpretation of what those four panels should look like on a single page:

PAGE 15

4 panels

PANEL 1
Harley is on top of a building, holding a large DETACHED cellphone tower in her hands as lightning is striking just about everywhere except her tower. She is looking at us like she cannot believe what she is doing. Beside herself. Not happy.

PANEL 2
Harley is sitting in an alligator pond, on a little island with a suit of raw chicken on, rolling her eyes like once again, she cannot believe where she has found herself. We see the alligators ignoring her.

PANEL 3
Harley is sitting in an open whale mouth, tickling the inside of the whale's mouth with a feather. She is ecstatic and happy, like this is the most fun ever.

PANEL 4
Harley sitting naked in a bathtub with toasters, blow dryers, blenders, appliances all dangling above the bathtub and she has a cord that will release them all. We are watching the moment before the inevitable death. Her expression is one of "oh well, guess that's it for me" and she has resigned herself to the moment that is going to happen.

If we were to read it out loud, the naked is more of a throwaway clarification. If it were this:

"Harley sitting, naked, in a bathtub with toasters"

or

"Harley sitting in a bathtub with toasters, naked."

I'd be more inclined to judge his intent the same way you do. To me, it seems like they want the tub to be empty, so they wanted to clarify that she should still be nude even though there's no water in there.

And what I'm saying is that their request is not out of desire for a picture to whack off to, but to express a more nuanced personal crisis through the artistic medium.

Perhaps you imagine an overweight man lecherously making the request for this picture, but imagine if you will a member of the beret-wearing intelligentsia making the same statement. Or if it had been written by a woman?

Danny Ocean:

Maiev Shadowsong:
You're the one missing the point.

No need to get defensive. I never said anyone else was wrong-- I said it depended on interpretation.

Nudity = not a problem.

They don't want an image where she happens to be nude though. They want to *see* nudity. They want her exposed. They want to see skin. They want the artist to make it known she has no clothes on. Her nakedness isn't par for course like it would be expected in the bath. Her figure isn't mundane. They go out of their way to demand her body be seen.

While she's killing herself.

And that doesn't scream 'sex' to me.

I know I'm rather an unusual individual in these things, but to be honest I don't think it's going to scream 'sex' to very many people (male or female) at all.

I imagine that in other people it will conjure the same sort of thoughts as in me. Of people having breakdowns in showers, crying to themselves with guns to their heads. Or individuals standing nude before mirrors judging themselves to death. Or a soldier regretting the person he became in a war, shedding their uniform, and then killing themselves.

Again, consider these: "Draw for me a woman killing herself in the bath."
"Draw for me a woman killing herself in the bath. Make sure she's naked."

Guess which one is seedy.

The second, of course, but the comparison you're making is not as apt as it first seems. Slight re-arrangements of words completely change the meaning of the sentence. The textual medium is missing tone and inflection and body language. He didn't write it, he said it, and he didn't say it like that:

Here's how to enter:

Read the rules & regulations listed below to confirm that you are eligible to enter DC Entertainment's Open Talent Search and agree to the terms and conditions.

Read the following script page and give us your original artistic interpretation of what those four panels should look like on a single page:

PAGE 15

4 panels

PANEL 1
Harley is on top of a building, holding a large DETACHED cellphone tower in her hands as lightning is striking just about everywhere except her tower. She is looking at us like she cannot believe what she is doing. Beside herself. Not happy.

PANEL 2
Harley is sitting in an alligator pond, on a little island with a suit of raw chicken on, rolling her eyes like once again, she cannot believe where she has found herself. We see the alligators ignoring her.

PANEL 3
Harley is sitting in an open whale mouth, tickling the inside of the whale's mouth with a feather. She is ecstatic and happy, like this is the most fun ever.

PANEL 4
Harley sitting naked in a bathtub with toasters, blow dryers, blenders, appliances all dangling above the bathtub and she has a cord that will release them all. We are watching the moment before the inevitable death. Her expression is one of "oh well, guess that's it for me" and she has resigned herself to the moment that is going to happen.

If we were to read it out loud, the naked is more of a throwaway clarification. If it were this:

"Harley sitting, naked, in a bathtub with toasters"

or

"Harley sitting in a bathtub with toasters, naked."

I'd be more inclined to judge his intent the same way you do. To me, it seems like they want the tub to be empty, so they wanted to clarify that she should still be nude even though there's no water in there.

And what I'm saying is that their request is not out of desire for a picture to whack off to, but to express a more nuanced personal crisis through the artistic medium.

Perhaps you imagine an overweight man lecherously making the request for this picture, but imagine if you will a member of the beret-wearing intelligentsia making the same statement. Or if it had been written by a woman?

Have you ever read a DC comic featuring a woman or seen any of their female art? Expecting implicit nudity to be anything other than fan service would get you ten to the one.

This isn't art. This is DC. Align expectations accordingly.

Paradoxrifts:
You'll have to get a soapbox and a megaphone sweetie. Because I can't hear you over all the schlicking, and I certainly can't see you over all these lady boners.

If you're finished with your nonsense, I'm still waiting for you to prove your statement -- or indeed provide any evidence at all.

Maiev Shadowsong:

Paradoxrifts:
You'll have to get a soapbox and a megaphone sweetie. Because I can't hear you over all the schlicking, and I certainly can't see you over all these lady boners.

If you're finished with your nonsense, I'm still waiting for you to prove your statement -- or indeed provide any evidence at all.

Like I said earlier, it is self-evident. There would be no great feminist outcry over this contest if it were about a man. You can add onto that certainty that if it weren't for the feminist angle then Escapist wouldn't have found it a newsworthy story, which would mean that we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

Such is the internet, but everyone really seems to be arguing semantics. They could have specifically requested it for several reasons, least of all simply being a squeamishness or lack of creativity in some artists should they attempt to simply draw her with clothes on.

They may not necessarily be asking for TnA, they want to see how well you can capture the human form and perhaps further, sensibly censor some bits with only the tools at hand. She has to be nude, she doesn't have to be entirely exposed however. So I could see it as an opportunity to say... put a well placed rubber ducky and few soap suds in key locations that keep a rather grim situation both somewhat humerous and tasteful.

When people go bathing, they tend to be naked. When they commit suicide, I would suppose it varies. Thus emphasis on "She must be naked." but there was no demand for "Tits or gtfo".

Paradoxrifts:

Maiev Shadowsong:

Paradoxrifts:
You'll have to get a soapbox and a megaphone sweetie. Because I can't hear you over all the schlicking, and I certainly can't see you over all these lady boners.

If you're finished with your nonsense, I'm still waiting for you to prove your statement -- or indeed provide any evidence at all.

Like I said earlier, it is self-evident. There would be no great feminist outcry over this contest if it were about a man. You can add onto that certainty that if it weren't for the feminist angle then Escapist wouldn't have found it a newsworthy story, which would mean that we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

More claims. Still no evidence.

Any time you're ready to support your statement, we'd love to see some actual evidence out of you. Not that your bullshitting and rambling isn't entertaining, but some time this week would be good.

Ok, so I mean this is kind of stupid in general but if this were a male character, would anyone bat an eye at it at all? I mean the bathtub image is the only one remotely questionable, the rest of them are just goofy. And yeah, she's in the bath, she's probably going to be naked. They specified naked to clarify that she isn't dressed in her usual harley quinn getup.

Is it sexist? Debatably slightly, but hell, Harley Quinn as a character isn't very dignified in the first place. Her whole deal is being the sidekick to the man she's in an abusive relationship with. She's more of an anti role model than anything. Everything would be better for everyone, herself included, if she just left the joker, but she doesn't. As a reader/viewer, you're supposed to see that she's not making the right choices. Plus broken down to the simplest black and white way to evaluate her, she's a villain. You're not supposed to want to be like her.

In general Harley is much more conventionally sexist than being naked in a bath. Yes, in context it's portrayed as tragic, but honestly the character is a really easy target anyways if you want to make that claim. It's not like it's wonder woman or batgirl who are supposed to be strong and dignified.

And here's what you're missing:

It wouldn't be a sexualized thing if they didn't explicitly state Harley Quinn had to be -naked- in the 4th pannel. Right now it's a mixture of both "What? Why are they killing Harley Quinn?" and "What? Why does she have to be naked?!" along with a dose of "Why the hell are they even running this contest?!"

Again, if it were batman, or the joker, the outrage would be over it being the batman or the joker killing themselves. Not because they were nude, or sexualized.
The same should be true for Harley Quinn (up to a point, because she's just flipping insane..)

As for the naked thing.
Where do they say we have to see her naked?
They say she has to be naked, but that doesn't mean we have to see it.

How would you do this?
Show her costume draped on the floor next to the bathtub.
Showing a typical women in a bathtub scene without nudity.. Sexualized? Possibly, but that should be irrelevant.

And ask your self this.
What if they requested a picture, of the Joker swinging from a noose, a chair by his feet. And his pants down around his ankles?

Or Batman, naked under his cape, in an alley, with a gun to his head.

The point I'm making here is that nudity =/= sexualized. The joker case would definitely be sexualized (as it was a sexual act) but still not exactly something normal people would find sexy.

They don't want an image where she happens to be nude though. They want to *see* nudity. They want her exposed. They want to see skin. They want the artist to make it known she has no clothes on. Her nakedness isn't par for course like it would be expected in the bath. Her figure isn't mundane. They go out of their way to demand her body be seen.

While she's killing herself.

Again, consider these: "Draw for me a woman killing herself in the bath."
"Draw for me a woman killing herself in the bath. Make sure she's naked."

Guess which one is seedy.

Harley Quinn is always seen in her costume/s. Without it. Is she Harley Quinn? Why is she naked, and not in her costume? Could it be, perhaps there intent is that she is no longer Harley Quinn?

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