PBS Game/Show Talks Harmful Male Stereotypes in Games

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VanQ:
Why is what this jackass says newsworthy? No, seriously. Why should I give a damn what this person has to say about video games. I'm sick of seeing this kind of bullshit. If there's a bunch of ladies out there with a severe persecution complex, that's bad enough. Last thing we need is a bunch of men crying about how the muscles in a game triggered their inferiority complex.
It's about time we all grew up, developed some maturity and learned to distinguish between fiction and reality. When did humanity become such a big group of whiners?

Ever since complaining and whining about such things brings profit and recognition?

This is the worst thing. Men may suffer from self-esteem issues, and that's just terrible, yes. But sexism is a social institution and there is no socially instituted sexism against men. The men in games may be what men want (and can't) be, but the women in games are what those men want. "Male gaze," right? The men here aren't objectified in the same way because they're designed so the player can be them.

It's not a harmful fantasy in the same way oversexualized women is; the men aren't goals, the men aren't objects, they're the avatar for you. And maybe that is offensive a concept in the same way it's offensive to think that, say... I mean, I'm the target audience for Michael Bay's Transformers and apparently Shia LaBeouf is who I'm meant to identify with. That is "offensive," in a way, yes. But it's not damaging in quite the same way.

...also, let's get this out of the way. Yes, men can get raped. No, rape culture does not apply to men. Again, it's all social institutions and beliefs and what have you that drives this stuff. In the same way you can be "racist" towards white people, but there is not racism against white people, you can be "sexist" towards men, but there is no sexism towards men. Misandry is not a societal disease in the same way misogyny is. Not even close. (And I know a lot of people will disagree, but I'm assuming those who do spend most of their time shielded from it.)

saltyanon:

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

First of all, why do you spell women like that? *puzzled* Second, you must have had some really bad experience with people labeling themselves as feminists because there's a lot of animosity going on there.

I have to agree with you though; it's total fucking bullshit saying that a man can't get raped by a woman. Of course he fucking can! But saying that it's post-modern feminisms fault is just wrong. It almost sounds like you think that just because someone supports equallity and labels themself a feminist in the process they are out to get men. Granted, some women really are 'out to get men', but they are in the vocal minority. Most of us really believe in equality, not in men gatting shafted so we can have more rights.

On a side note - please please please give me more female enemies. Not women in skimpy outfits limberly kicking me in the face above their own head as if they don't have a spine but women soldiers, mercenaries, etc. It seem implausible that I only have male enemies.

Oh man this topic is gonna be a goldmine of insane posts. XD And I'm sure I'll end up feeling depressed by reading them.

I'm so glad that the games I love to play usually don't even enter into the realm of this shit.

joshuaayt:

sleeky01:

Baresark:
It can be very damaging to anyone with self image problems. That has sprouted up a lot more in recent years than it did in previous generations. Just like unrealistic expectations of beauty can negatively effect the self image of a girl, the same can be said for boys. Most men are depicted in such a way that it's unattainable. The only reason it's a subject that is never breached is simply because even though body image problems are becoming more common for males, it's still far far less common compared to women.

I wonder if a case of it being actually less than women or just less admitted to. To an extent I mean.

I'd say you're absolutely right- I don't see why men as a whole would be happier with their bodies than women as a whole. We're aiming for different end goals, but they're both equally unattainable.

Got to disagree there. The giant tits/tiny waist/gravity defying ass held up for women is unattainable for most. Being a guy with a good physique is within most mens grasp. I have a good physique because I eat right and exercise regularly. It takes work, although it doesnt feel like work because its enjoyable and rewarding.

It drives me mad when some overweight guy who lives on cheetos and xbox tells me im lucky because i can eat without putting on weight. No I just use the calories I take on with exercise. If you use more calories than you consume you will lose weight. Simple math. If you exercise you become stronger and fitter and your physique will improve.

Its a very different issue than womens unrealistic proportions. One requires work. The other surgery and probably starvation.

Racecarlock:
Has anyone solved that little problem where women on XBL and PSN and even on the PC get random messages to get their tits out or propositions for bathroom sex?

I'm just saying, that seems to have been lost among this whole thing about unrealistic proportions.

checjk out the video linked in the article. Especially take note of how he says this isn't a 'p***ing contest about who has it worse.'

Can we also agree, that video games are a way to get out off your own reality and dive into a place to do things you canīt do in real life. That means also playing a moving muscle mountain or giant titts on legs. Killing stuff or do crazy shit like katamari. I understand if people say i want more games where i play normal people doing normal things, like maybe sims or farming simulations. And i would also encourage people to do more different games so everyone can like something. But it sounds more and more like: we need to get rid of super ridicules manly protagonists or sex objects because of reasons. People should be able to play whatever they like. If others donīt like it they should be able to play their games instead.

Anja Bech:

saltyanon:

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

First of all, why do you spell women like that? *puzzled* Second, you must have had some really bad experience with people labeling themselves as feminists because there's a lot of animosity going on there.

I have to agree with you though; it's total fucking bullshit saying that a man can't get raped by a woman. Of course he fucking can! But saying that it's post-modern feminisms fault is just wrong. It almost sounds like you think that just because someone supports equallity and labels themself a feminist in the process they are out to get men. Granted, some women really are 'out to get men', but they are in the vocal minority. Most of us really believe in equality, not in men gatting shafted so we can have more rights.

On a side note - please please please give me more female enemies. Not women in skimpy outfits limberly kicking me in the face above their own head as if they don't have a spine but women soldiers, mercenaries, etc. It seem implausible that I only have male enemies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn

Sounds much better/less sillier than woperdaughter if you ask me. Besides, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by using the utterly misogynistic word "woman".

Yuuki:
But the difference is that they CAN achieve that if they're willing to get off their lazy behinds and hit the gym. It's not like females thinking "oh no I'll never be pretty and I'll never have those curvy breasts/hips" because they can't really help being born with a certain body shape and they can't really help their beauty (crazy make-up fanatics come to mind).

Males can actually DO something about it, and believe me more guys definitely need to start hitting the gym (looking at your severe obesity issues America). Steroids are obviously retarded and muscle dysmorphia is pretty rare, but in most scenarios I would say idealized male heroes have done more good than harm for males.

You don't have to bulk-up like a tank, I would say ladies are more attracted to lean/toned bodies these days.

So on the one hand you give women a pass due to not being born with the right body shape but tell men to get off their asses and there's no excuse? Ok.

J Tyran:
Thing is though for most healthy men masculine attractiveness is easily obtainable, a man just needs to eat well, exercise a bit and put a bit of thought into grooming and appearance. A man doesn't need to be Adonian or built like Marcus Fenix, in fact thats not all that appealing to a lot of men and women. Athletic looking is enough, clean and tidy clothes is enough and being clean and well groomed is enough (obviously social circles and lifestyle decide what well dressed and well groomed actually are).

Women unfortunately have a much harder time of it and the expectations are often not even natural, a man can take care of what he is given but a women might have to do something drastic like ridiculous diets or surgery to confirm to some expectations.

Easily obtainable? Yeah ok sure.

Lemme tell ya both why you're just contributing to the problem here, and I'm going to use myself as an example. (oh fun)

Now I don't think by any means I'm an ugly person but no way in hell do I categorise in the typical definitions of "male attractiveness" that games push and you both seem to think is something that's easily obtainable. First off I'm short, I'm 5'4. That's something I can't help; my father's short, my grandfather was short, my uncles are short, it's simple genetics. It's a family in-joke that whenever there's a wedding if we take a group shot with the bride we'd be mistaken for the cover of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. It's not a big deal because I live on Malta which has been officially classified as having the shortest men in Europe. No problem when everyone around you is the same, right? Oh wait, no, because it's 2013 and we aren't all just sitting around in our individual tribes unable to cross land and sea. So whenever I see movies or games depicting the pinacle of masculinity to be physical height that's already making me feel slightly inferior and no amount of "getting off my ass" will fix that.

Second point, my teeth are crooked. I take good care of them and they're white and healthy, but it still falls into the "this is not beautiful" department. Could I have fixed it when I was younger? Probably, if we had the money at the time, but we didn't so here I am. Could I fix them now? I don't want a dentist yanking out perfectly strong and healthy teeth just to conform to some universal, media-induced stigma of what is passable for a pretty smile. When I was younger it was harder to deal with, to the point of for a good few years I actually stopped smiling out of embarassment. It really hurt one day when a friend of my then girlfriend said "*redacted* was right, you never smile", hearing that a person who I was the happiest around said that really hit me hard.

Now third point, my actual body. I'm not fat but at the same time I know I'm not going to be a hunk. I'm not built for it vertically, it's as simple as that. If I were proportionally equivalent to some stereotypical 6'2 brick shithouse I'd still have smaller muscles and people equate smaller with "not as good as" because equivalency goes right out the window in such matters. I go to the gym, I stay active, I eat right, I try out new sports periodically (martial arts and gymnastics being the two I stuck with the longest) so I have been lean/toned quite often throughout my life but it's still a lean/toned physique draped over a small frame so it's not as noticable.

So one long wall of text later? My point is for some men no matter WHAT they do they won't fit into the conventional male stereotype of attractiveness. I overcame a lot of personal obstacles when I just sat down and accepted the fact I am who I am and I have to work within those limitations. That there is such a thing as an unrealistic expectation and that certain figures are out of my reach. Have a video to go along with it if you have half an hour spare to show how brainwashed people are when it comes to matters like this. Yeah I know Penn & Teller aren't a legit, viable source but they still do a good job of pointint out certain views that are without merit.

saltyanon:

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

That's a common misconception. By UK law and possibly some other countries too a woman can't rape another woman nor can a woman rape a man. That's just how the law is written, not the actual meaning of rape. By the definition of rape a female teacher having sex with a male student is considered rape because she's got authority over the student. Heck, even a girl surprising her boyfriend with a morning blowjob while he's asleep can be considered rape because he's not able to consent to it because he's asleep. The law isn't the definition.

Anja Bech:
First of all, why do you spell women like that?

It's a feminism thing. Females shouldn't be defined partially through the masculine word man such as they are with the "man" ending in woman, thus they should name themselves womyn. The same goes for human, why should man define humans?

I think Skyrim nailed it pretty well by barely paying attention to gender at all. There are powerful men and weak women but there are also powerful women and weak men. I don't recall an instance in the game where any character made any kind of comment about someone's gender in a positive or negative way. Women have power here, men have power there; some women swing bloody great warhammers whilst some men use daggers and magic.

While the armour sets are different depending on gender, at least the female versions are actually sensible and, unlike a lot of games, are not just chainmail and leather lingerie! I'm no prude but there's a time and a place, you know?

The only place it falls down is the body-type - male warriors are all huge-great brick shit-houses where even characters like Mjoll the Lioness are all svelte and sexy.

I suppose you can't have it all...

Yuuki:

But the difference is that they CAN achieve that if they're willing to get off their lazy behinds and hit the gym. It's not like females thinking "oh no I'll never be pretty and I'll never have those curvy breasts/hips" because they can't really help being born with a certain body shape and they can't really help their beauty (crazy make-up fanatics come to mind).

Males can actually DO something about it, and believe me more guys definitely need to start hitting the gym (looking at your severe obesity issues America). Steroids are obviously retarded and muscle dysmorphia is pretty rare, but in most scenarios I would say idealized male heroes have done more good than harm for males.

You don't have to bulk-up like a tank, I would say ladies are more attracted to lean/toned bodies these days.

Sooo...men have to put in the effort whereas women don't because they're just born that way? Way to skewer feminism and women in general, there! If that's the case, why does the gym I go to have as many women as men in it? Are they just there to make up the numbers? Would their time be better spent in the nail bar next door?

Stating that men have to lose the fat and shape-up is fine but asserting that women don't because they shouldn't have to confirm to some kind of ideal or deny what nature gave them is as hypocritical as is flat-out wrong. It could also be classed as a sexist attitude, by the way.

Anyway, moving-on...

Ten weeks ago I got off my "lazy" behind and started using a gym. Was I fat? Not really - I am quite the opposite. I'm tall and have arms like twigs but a diet of beer and whatever I felt like eating was starting to add a bit of padding around the midriff and chest. So, motivated by vanity and several jibes from a certain woman about my weight / lack of muscle, I started to hit the weights and cross-trainer. I improved my diet (although I still drink beer!) and started to drink protein shakes that were recommended by a gym-going colleague of mine.

If it's so easy for men to shape-up, I should be ripped to the tits by now, right?

Nope! While I cannot deny that it's working, all I have to show after ten weeks of effort (and I am going 3-4 times a week and each session is at least an hour and a half so I'm not skiving!) is a slightly reduced stomach / love-handles and the beginnings of muscle definition around my arms and shoulders. I can see it but to everyone else, I'm just the same as I always was.

I will not give up and I will press on but the point I am trying to make is that it's just as hard work for men as it is for women to get in shape, regardless of what body shape they were born with!

saltyanon:

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

Sorry but I am calling bullshit on that one. If a woman uses a strap-on to reduce a man's arse to burger-meat without his consent, it's rape.

CardinalPiggles:
And a womens expectations are might be raised when admiring those hunks too.

Doubt it. Male protagonists are designed so that men will want to be them, NOT so women will want them. If they were designed for the "female gaze" - they would look like the man-candy from FREE (the anime).

Damn right mate! I'm so sick of having to be the manly man in games all the time! What about my softer side and my FEEWINGS!?

Okay I'm off to light some candles, have a hot bubble bath and a good cry. .... or not.

This is starting to annoy me. How is this any different from the argument that violent video game makes violent people? I know the difference between fantasy and reality and I always have (except maybe when I was like, five). It's pretty hateful and judgmental to assume that while it may not affect me, it's "wrong" because the rest of the world isn't as advanced as I am. I noticed this attitude most recently with professional game journalists asking "what message does this send?" regarding the female characters in GTA 5. It's just so damn smug.

CardinalPiggles:
I think the muscular male hero stereotype is equally damaging. I already have a low self esteem, always have, but I can see how some guys might get a little depressed thinking about how they'll never achieve what their favourite characters do every couple of minutes.

And a womens expectations are might be raised when admiring those hunks too.

I hate to see the games medium follow what the TV and films medium did and glorify to extremes the perfect male and female specimens, giving the consumer unrealistic expectations of what we should be like.

ask what I ask when I see a 'hyper masculine male':

OT: Let's get it out. Girls, you dont want video game characters to look like giant walking sticks with balloons tied to them. Guys dont want video game characters that look like brick walls made of muscles and testosterone.

Both sexes, if you are going to hold out for someone that looks like your favorite video game character of the opposite sex, then you are going to be waiting for a long time.

Deshin:
Easily obtainable? Yeah ok sure...(snipped for size)

I have not got time to watch a 30min video at the moment but I will get around it later, but regarding your post. Without trying to be an armchair psychologist I would suggest your perceptions about height are making you more sensitive than you need to be about it, sure 5,4 is far from a titanic height but its not to bad. The way you dress and carry yourself can help, I would say your height is more along the lines of being "compact" rather than short. There is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise I know, its not that easy for people to just pick themselves up by the scruff of their neck and change their perceptions about themselves but you should really try and think it over and realise your height is fine.

If you want an example of that look at Richard Hammond (the guy from Top Gear), he is about 5,6 or so yet he is considered highly attractive by men and women. Tom Cruise and Robert Downey Jr are not that tall either, well turned out compact guys can be as attractive as someone thats 6ft tall.

The teeth situation is a but more complicated, there is no easy or inexpensive fix for that. As you point out the biggest problem there isn't the actual teeth its the way your sensitive about it and do not smile, this obviously gives the impression you are not the happiest person in the world. Attitude and perceived attitude is one of the main things about what makes a person attractive or not, unfortunately the only thing that could be done about it is either have them straightened or try and make the most of it. You dont need to have them taken out as adults can wear dental braces but it takes a long time, there are some faster methods of bracing but they are more expensive. Attractiveness aside though it might be worth thinking about as crooked teeth can cause problems in some cases, its harder to keep them clean and carries the risk of decay and cavities and it can make you more likely to loose teeth accidently. As you do martial arts thats definitely something to think about.

Anyway I admire your honesty and ability to admit the way the way you feel about things and I do get your point, saying it was "easy" for men to fit into perceptions and expectations about attractiveness is a bit inaccurate. I guess what I should have said that its not as challenging as some people think and often easier for men than it is women.

sleeky01:

Baresark:
It can be very damaging to anyone with self image problems. That has sprouted up a lot more in recent years than it did in previous generations. Just like unrealistic expectations of beauty can negatively effect the self image of a girl, the same can be said for boys. Most men are depicted in such a way that it's unattainable. The only reason it's a subject that is never breached is simply because even though body image problems are becoming more common for males, it's still far far less common compared to women.

I wonder if a case of it being actually less than women or just less admitted to. To an extent I mean.

It's a two fold problem. One, males aren't necessarily taught stoicism, but a lot of guys look up to men with this particular feature. So, even if they are having severe problems they most likely will not admit to it. The other part is that it's not looked for as much as it is in the female population. There are warning signs for it just like there are for women. So, even if a male is having self image problems, even if he is seeking help in some situations, it's simply not taken as seriously as it is with the female population with this issue.

saltyanon:

thaluikhain:

saltyanon:
Come back and tell me feminism encompasses equality when the word rape can apply to men as well.

Er, the word can apply to men as well.

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

I find the user of the statement, "men are the ones holding power", as a quick go to in a debate very annoying. I'm not attacking you at all, but I think you would have to agree that it's so completely vague as to be useless. Who is "holding power" is very subjective and changes from hand to hand regularly in any situation. The reality is that it's a lousy point because it sounds like men explicitly hold power all the time and this never changes. This is wrong. It's also commonly used in reference to white men, which means that all white men are holding power over everyone else, and this is an outright lie. It's a generalization that has no place in a modern educated world. Sure, lots of white men have held lots of power since the beginning of mankind, also some not so white men, and I'm sure in small numbers, women have also held power over people. I'm not even arguing that statistically in history, this "holding of power" has not fallen mostly on white men, at least in the civilized world. But this is not accurate because I am a white guy who has never held any sway over anyone else. More importantly, I have never known a another Caucasian male that has had opportunities over anyone else based on the fact that they are either white or male.

I'm ranting, sorry. I just can't stand such generalization. It's taken as "common knowledge" but I cannot in good conscience conceded that point. The majority of Caucasian male's have been in the exact same position as most other people. The media leads to a popular opinion that the we have all the power, but we don't. Some of us do, but we are not more powerful simply because we share a few common physical features, and the people who are holding power at any given point in time are not sharing it with me just because of those common physical features.

Also, just for fun, I can think of a way a man can be raped by a woman. Tied down naked flat on their back forced to ingest Viagra. It's convoluted and contrived, but not impossible. Or, they can be sedated, tied down and sodomized by a woman. Still contrived, but still possible. I mean, the truth is, I don't know why anyone would ever rape anyone else, but then I'm not mentally disturbed. Someone who is not mentally disturbed cannot in fact understand what it's like to have that ailment. It's impossible. I know rape is about power over another person, still vague and annoying, but at least it is more pronounced in its use that way. But that need for power isn't always overt. It's often times subconscious.... and there I go raving like a mad man again. I digress. Like I said, I'm not attacking so much as I'm interested in open debate without the use of ultra vague statements like I have been raving about for the last few minutes.

Varrdy:

saltyanon:

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

Sorry but I am calling bullshit on that one. If a woman uses a strap-on to reduce a man's arse to burger-meat without his consent, it's rape.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/frequently-asked-questions/ucr_faqs

But then again, that's just a reporting system so let's give them the benefit of the doubt. So instead, google about Mary P. Koss.

Did you also know that a male partner withholding sex can be considered domestic violence?

saltyanon:

Did you also know that a male partner withholding sex can be considered domestic violence?

Wait, what?!? Are you serious? Actually, considering some of the crap I've heard lately, I can believe it, even if I still think it's bonkers!

Can't men just cry "headache" too?

CardinalPiggles:
I think the muscular male hero stereotype is equally damaging. I already have a low self esteem, always have, but I can see how some guys might get a little depressed thinking about how they'll never achieve what their favourite characters do every couple of minutes.

And a womens expectations are might be raised when admiring those hunks too.

I hate to see the games medium follow what the TV and films medium did and glorify to extremes the perfect male and female specimens, giving the consumer unrealistic expectations of what we should be like.

Hah. Look how hard it was for Stan Lee to pitch Spiderman years ago. Even back then NOOOBODY wanted a young man who was humble and had to figure things out, or whose responsibilities grounded him. A male protagonist who was still driven by a crush, but yet a less counterproductive one. (legacy wise)

Even the 1st Die Hard, the director wanted a dirty harry and got a more effective John McClane out of someone who wasn't poker faced had to admit he didn't have all the answers.

Karate Kid too, look I know these are all flicks rather than games, but it also asks the question in fictional culture As much as we love playing and being around synthetic idealized folks. because the real world counterparts wouldn't give a crap or are too dangerous to be around.

How often do we celebrate struggling grounded heroes that make accomplishments in action adventure more visceral and thought provoking? We put people on too high a pedestal in our celeb culture.

J Tyran:

If you want an example of that look at Richard Hammond (the guy from Top Gear), he is about 5,6 or so yet he is considered highly attractive by men and women. Tom Cruise and Robert Downey Jr are not that tall either, well turned out compact guys can be as attractive as someone thats 6ft tall.

Ahh Cherry picking from one side only to make a point.

The same can be said for a number of women who fall outside what would normally be considered the perfect physical example of a woman.

And to a point the problem isnt the pressure to look like Tom Cruise its the pressure to look like the oversized gorrilas that some parts of the gaming and other media push as the peak of male phisical perfection. Thta level of muscle many of us would require setroid abuse to the extent that our balls however sized beforehand would shirnk so small as to become miniture black holes.

On the main topic I'd be interested to know if the figures have been adjusted for reportage bias (i.e women are more likely to admit to such things than men even on anomious surveys).

On the feminism discussion side track I'm not a fan of the term as I beleive it risks bringing in a subtle bias, however unitentional.

Yuuki:
But the difference is that they CAN achieve that if they're willing to get off their lazy behinds and hit the gym. It's not like females thinking "oh no I'll never be pretty and I'll never have those curvy breasts/hips" because they can't really help being born with a certain body shape and they can't really help their beauty (crazy make-up fanatics come to mind).

Males can actually DO something about it, and believe me more guys definitely need to start hitting the gym (looking at your severe obesity issues America). Steroids are obviously retarded and muscle dysmorphia is pretty rare, but in most scenarios I would say idealized male heroes have done more good than harm for males.

You don't have to bulk-up like a tank, I would say ladies are more attracted to lean/toned bodies these days.

It's not different at all, both are thoroughly achievable with enough effort and dedication, even for older women, for instance see this: http://www.odditycentral.com/pics/46-year-old-korean-mom-proves-weight-loss-and-fitness-really-do-turn-back-the-clock.html
image

The reason why these "cases" of someone being able to improve oneself exist in the first place is because humans of either sex are biologically programmed to be attracted to certain signs of fertility (large breasts and hips for instance in women) and no amount of "progressive brainwashing" will change that simple fact.
See this study for instance: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-009-9523-5
Even if you outright try to overcome said things in a social context, your inherent instinctive brain functions betray your nature anyway.

By the logic that media portrays "unrealistic proportions" as desirable and leads to girls possibly starving themselves to look like that, then what does it mean if they try to suddenly change this and are trying to depict these kind of body types as "normal" or "desirable"?
image

"Being and eating unhealthy is great!"?
"Exercise is for idiots!"?
"It is totally okay to be lazy and incredibly fat!"?

What exactly is it they are trying to say when they want to deem morbidly obese or outright anorexic characters as "realistic" or "sanely proportioned" when largely healthy/fit and attractive depictions of both genders are supposed to be considered "bad" by the definitions of the same people?
For that matter, how many fat old people do you see in everyday life, and why do you think that that is?

Kalezian:
OT: Let's get it out. Girls, you dont want video game characters to look like giant walking sticks with balloons tied to them. Guys dont want video game characters that look like brick walls made of muscles and testosterone.

I am rather pudgy/fat myself and have no problems with the depiction of either, since that body type is actually close to the healthy norm that people should ideally be striving for. (I don't mean Hulk or Gears of War where the protagonists are being depicted as caricatures, but something like Nathan Drake or even those Calvin Klein commercials)

I'd also feel like my intelligence is being insulted if game developers started employing fat or handicapped people as some sort of superheroes being able to do everything since I know what it is like to run up a few flights of stairs and to be out of breath for a few minutes or break out in a sweat. There is a reason that for certain professions (for instance astronauts, special agents, sports) a certain body type or kind of person is preferred that is able to pass an intensive amount of endurance and fitness tests and that is because people with those proportions and inherent agility/muscle power that comes with it are inherently more able to do said tasks. Your usual "couch potato" or morbidly obese person has no place there.
Yet virtual worlds usually depict these incredibly "fit" people doing things, I don't think a "fat people stair walking simulator" or "social autism game" would quite get the same interest.

Andy of Comix Inc:
This is the worst thing. Men may suffer from self-esteem issues, and that's just terrible, yes. But sexism is a social institution and there is no socially instituted sexism against men. The men in games may be what men want (and can't) be, but the women in games are what those men want. "Male gaze," right? The men here aren't objectified in the same way because they're designed so the player can be them.

harmful ... oversexualized ... objectified ... offensive ... offensive ... offensive ... damaging ... rape ... rape culture ... racist ... racism ... sexist ... sexism ... misogyny

Oh boy look at that, another dude breaking out into an indignant diatribe of self-guilt about "male privilege": http://i.imgur.com/GP1gZa0.jpg using a whole load of buzzwords and jumping to the defense of poor women everywhere who have it that much worse than everybody else...

Baresark:

sleeky01:

Baresark:
It can be very damaging to anyone with self image problems. That has sprouted up a lot more in recent years than it did in previous generations. Just like unrealistic expectations of beauty can negatively effect the self image of a girl, the same can be said for boys. Most men are depicted in such a way that it's unattainable. The only reason it's a subject that is never breached is simply because even though body image problems are becoming more common for males, it's still far far less common compared to women.

I wonder if a case of it being actually less than women or just less admitted to. To an extent I mean.

It's a two fold problem. One, males aren't necessarily taught stoicism, but a lot of guys look up to men with this particular feature. So, even if they are having severe problems they most likely will not admit to it. The other part is that it's not looked for as much as it is in the female population. There are warning signs for it just like there are for women. So, even if a male is having self image problems, even if he is seeking help in some situations, it's simply not taken as seriously as it is with the female population with this issue.

saltyanon:

thaluikhain:

Er, the word can apply to men as well.

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

I find the user of the statement, "men are the ones holding power", as a quick go to in a debate very annoying. I'm not attacking you at all, but I think you would have to agree that it's so completely vague as to be useless. Who is "holding power" is very subjective and changes from hand to hand regularly in any situation. The reality is that it's a lousy point because it sounds like men explicitly hold power all the time and this never changes. This is wrong. It's also commonly used in reference to white men, which means that all white men are holding power over everyone else, and this is an outright lie. It's a generalization that has no place in a modern educated world. Sure, lots of white men have held lots of power since the beginning of mankind, also some not so white men, and I'm sure in small numbers, women have also held power over people. I'm not even arguing that statistically in history, this "holding of power" has not fallen mostly on white men, at least in the civilized world. But this is not accurate because I am a white guy who has never held any sway over anyone else. More importantly, I have never known a another Caucasian male that has had opportunities over anyone else based on the fact that they are either white or male.

I'm ranting, sorry. I just can't stand such generalization. It's taken as "common knowledge" but I cannot in good conscience conceded that point. The majority of Caucasian male's have been in the exact same position as most other people. The media leads to a popular opinion that the we have all the power, but we don't. Some of us do, but we are not more powerful simply because we share a few common physical features, and the people who are holding power at any given point in time are not sharing it with me just because of those common physical features.

Also, just for fun, I can think of a way a man can be raped by a woman. Tied down naked flat on their back forced to ingest Viagra. It's convoluted and contrived, but not impossible. Or, they can be sedated, tied down and sodomized by a woman. Still contrived, but still possible. I mean, the truth is, I don't know why anyone would ever rape anyone else, but then I'm not mentally disturbed. Someone who is not mentally disturbed cannot in fact understand what it's like to have that ailment. It's impossible. I know rape is about power over another person, still vague and annoying, but at least it is more pronounced in its use that way. But that need for power isn't always overt. It's often times subconscious.... and there I go raving like a mad man again. I digress. Like I said, I'm not attacking so much as I'm interested in open debate without the use of ultra vague statements like I have been raving about for the last few minutes.

True true, but its not so much the everyday white man such as yourself. but the cultural favoritism and limits on social access that those in power do perpetuate. No ones mad at you. Those under social pressure just don't like when on the ground level it's brushed off as not existing "oh if only you strived harder."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=derzWWYf3-w I like how louie said it.

Yuuki:
Well in the "wave after wave of enemies" scenario they can't really mix in female enemies, because then some feminists will cry misogyny at how the player has to kill females. Not all feminists obviously, but some :P

CardinalPiggles:
I think the muscular male hero stereotype is equally damaging. I already have a low self esteem, always have, but I can see how some guys might get a little depressed thinking about how they'll never achieve what their favourite characters do every couple of minutes.

But the difference is that they CAN achieve that if they're willing to get off their lazy behinds and hit the gym. It's not like females thinking "oh no I'll never be pretty and I'll never have those curvy breasts/hips" because they can't really help being born with a certain body shape and they can't really help their beauty (crazy make-up fanatics come to mind).

Males can actually DO something about it, and believe me more guys definitely need to start hitting the gym (looking at your severe obesity issues America). Steroids are obviously retarded and muscle dysmorphia is pretty rare, but in most scenarios I would say idealized male heroes have done more good than harm for males.

You don't have to bulk-up like a tank, I would say ladies are more attracted to lean/toned bodies these days.

And here the hypocrisy shows. why do we have to do anything to look good for you if we are not allowed to judge women by the same standards as you judge men.

You call us lazy haha thats rich. oh women can help the body shape they are born with its called breast implants get them if you want them purely for my enjoyment.

Ympulse:

J Tyran:

Baresark:
Most men are depicted in such a way that it's unattainable.

Thing is though for most healthy men masculine attractiveness is easily obtainable, a man just needs to eat well, exercise a bit and put a bit of thought into grooming and appearance.

Just an anecdote for the deluded children like yourself. I've been doing the "eat right, exercise daily" routine for coming on ten years now, and I'm still not even close to being as big, chiseled, or "manly" as any Videogame character depicted as a "man". No matter how hard you work, you are limited by your genes, the amount of hours in the day, and your own sanity.

Could a guy such as myself get big and ripped in six months time? Sure could. Do I have the money to make the food purchases while also not having a job to pay bills in the itnerim? Not really. Reality sucks, sorry to say.

And I think this is a good video, because men are humans as well.

Trouble is ripped game characters like Marcus Fenix or Kratos are not intended to be attractive, they are a power fantasy. Nathan Drake is intended to be physically attractive for example, you are barking up the wrong tree entirely. The fact you seem to think it takes six months points out just how uninformed you actually are are. Those ideals are not only unrealistic they are unrealistically unrealistic because they are not what most people would actually consider attractive in the first place, as an alpha male image possibly but there is a lot more to being a dominant male than muscle size. Attitude, success, wealth and power are a huge part of that if not the largest part and they are much more nebulous and difficult to obtain than muscles are. Just ask yourself which man is the alpha in this example, the guy who goes to the gym for four hours a day every day or the man that exercises three times a week for 30 mins that just happens to own the franchise that runs the whole $200,000,000 national chain of gyms? Yet no-one seems to consider that at all, most complaints are purely about physical appearance and the self consciousness that brings forward.

I find it amusing that you manage to play enough games to upset yourself yet you claim you cannot afford decent food or find 20 mins a day to do a light cardio workout, you may need to realign your priorities if things are that tight. Completely ignoring perceived levels attractiveness its worth doing purely for health reasons, unless things are really bad for you a pair of trainers and some sports clothes don't cost that much and putting down your games for 20 mins is not impossible surely? Your problem is obviously not just appearance its related to attitude and wealth if finances are that tight for you and you have such low self esteem, a bit of exercise is easier to fix than the other problems.

If someone doesn't take care of themselves or eats rubbish food whilst growing a neckbeard and mullet they forfeit any rights to complain about expectations of appearance, just about every animal on the planet has some kind of display or behaviour related to making themselves appealing. Humans are no different, like I said a man doesn't need to look like Marcus Fenix to be attractive and it doesn't take huge amounts of time or money for a man to make himself physically attractive but if someone doesn't want to put the effort into it and its pretty pathetic for them to wring their hands and say how impossible it is.

It clearly highlights the real deficiencies too, lack of drive, ambition and confidence which in the right proportions are what really makes a man attractive as well as being the alpha.

Yopaz:

saltyanon:

First of all, why do you spell women like that?

It's a feminism thing. Females shouldn't be defined partially through the masculine word man such as they are with the "man" ending in woman, thus they should name themselves womyn. The same goes for human, why should man define humans?

Wasn't the term "mankind" meant to refer to every human as in men AND women? that would mean that "MAN" would more or less just mean human with the "WO" in woman differentiating gender besides our language is littered with words that include man like penmanship or sportsmanship...I don't really know that I'm getting at it always just seemed to me that the word "MAN" unless specifically used to state somebodies gender was more or less neutral.

As a side note not that I'm trying to bash feminism or anything...but isn't the point equality? so why go out of your way to separate the two genders over silly words...

I dislike the use of the word problematic. To me that word implies that somehow the games in question are the problem instead of being symptomatic of the problem(I.E. extreme gender stereotypes)the games themselves are simply guilty of having a lack of realistically formed characters and ideas. The ideas behind the creation the games are what could be termed problomatic.

Fictional media itself cannot be sexist or racist, it can have characters that are racist or sexist or situations, narratives or ideas that are examples of those ideas but the work itself doesn't have that capability.

An example of this is The Lord Of The Rings. It in and of itself is not racist or sexist despite the lack of female protagonists and any representations of people of colour in any role but that of a villain. It is a story, one which unfortunetly is lacking in a deep depiction of its world in certain areas. The culture, ideas or perspective of the story teller or even of the readers can be sexist or racist and in turn define how those people feel about the story but the story (or game) are simply fiction.

fic·tion

Noun

1.Prose literature, esp. short stories and novels, about imaginary events and people.
2.Invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.

People are problomatic, games just have problems.

CardinalPiggles:

I hate to see the games medium follow what the TV and films medium did and glorify to extremes the perfect male and female specimens, giving the consumer unrealistic expectations of what we should be like.

Unrealistic expectations becoming 'reality' is the exact reason why we play videogames, watch TV, read books....

No one wants to play a game as Boring McNormal: And The Adventure of Morning Traffic. We like to see Commander Shepard headbutt space dinosaurs. We like to see Robb Stark fight an entire war for honor relying on his wits against a much more powerful force. We like to Walter White slowly descend into evil as he builds the largest meth empire in the world. If he had just stayed a boring normal teacher, how long do you think anyone would have bothered to watch?

Bix96:

Yopaz:

saltyanon:

First of all, why do you spell women like that?

It's a feminism thing. Females shouldn't be defined partially through the masculine word man such as they are with the "man" ending in woman, thus they should name themselves womyn. The same goes for human, why should man define humans?

Wasn't the term "mankind" meant to refer to every human as in men AND women? that would mean that "MAN" would more or less just mean human with the "WO" in woman differentiating gender besides our language is littered with words that include man like penmanship or sportsmanship...I don't really know that I'm getting at it always just seemed to me that the word "MAN" unless specifically used to state somebodies gender was more or less neutral.

As a side note not that I'm trying to bash feminism or anything...but isn't the point equality? so why go out of your way to separate the two genders over silly words...

Oh, I totally agree with you. I was just explaining the meaning behind the word. There's a lot of battles for equality and I don't believe spelling should be considered as one worth fighting.

I could only stand watching 2 minutes of that shit before rage quitting.

Seriously, stop this. Stop this right now. Stop being a bunch of whiny pussies and looking for problems where there are none. I want to quit playing video games more than ever as a result of that jackass spouting that bullshit. I am sick of the feminism/sexism debate, but even more sick I am of this "waa waa misandry, men's rights boo hoo" garbage. Don't even start it. Kill it! Kill it before it is even born!

Seriously, the guy complains about men getting killed in video games? What the fuck do you expect when the biggest video games are all about physical combat in some form or another? And about what effect male video game characters have on men in real life? Hello, wake up dumbass, what have male models, Brad Pitt, David Beckham, countless action movie stars, professional athletes etc. been doing to the male self image for MILLENNIA??!?!?!??!?! Male gender roles have changed? Yes, in rich, educated, stable mostly western countries. Look anywhere else, and traditional gender roles are still going strong.

Eeeyyeyaeauuaeuhhrhfhhghhhh, this might be the giantest load of gaming-related bullshit I've ever heard.

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