UK Police Seize Suspected 3D Printed Firearm Parts In Raid

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UK Police Seize Suspected 3D Printed Firearm Parts In Raid

Greater Manchester police found the weapon during operation Challenger.

In what may be a world first, Greater Manchester police have seized what is believed to be components for a 3D printed firearm, in a raid on organized crime targets as part of operation Challenger. The parts include what may be a magazine and trigger, as well as the 3D printer used to make them. Firearms specialists are now forensically examining the units, to determine whether or not the parts could be used to make a viable weapon. A man has been arrested on suspicion of making gunpowder and is being questioned.

But the seizure may not be what it seems. It has been alleged that the parts taken in the raid are actually spare parts for the 3D printer. "We are aware of this suggestion, and it would be easier if it was cut and dried as to what these items are," said a police spokesman. "But when you take it as a whole, including the discovery of gunpowder, it is disturbing."

The Challenger raids are Greater Manchester's response to the murders of PCs Fiona Bone and Nichola Hughes, in September 2012. The unarmed constables were lured to a house by a fake burglary report, and then shot dead by Dale Cregan. Cregan fired over thirty rounds, hitting each officer multiple times, and then threw a fragmentation grenade at the constables' bodies. Cregan was involved in organized crime, and claimed to have killed the constables because the police were hounding his family.

More than 100 raids were carried out as part of Challenger. Over fifty people have been arrested, and quantities of narcotics, counterfeit and stolen goods, and real firearms have been seized during the raids.

Source: Guardian

Permalink

It's just proof that gun laws don't stop people from getting guns no matter how strict they are.

... that's a gun?

Is my paperclip a part of a more complex home made gun too? Maybe its part of a multi-platform super weapon floating in space, waiting to strike with laser-based fury.

Hell, isn't the reciever the thing that's legally a gun?

Zeren:
It's just proof that gun laws don't stop people from getting guns no matter how strict they are.

Exactly, it makes it very hard to support very restrictive laws like you see in the UK and Ireland.

Scandinavian countries often have lax gun laws and crimes committed via firearms are very low.

3d printed guns is probably going to be a mainly European phenomenon, not really an American one.

image

Zeren:
It's just proof that gun laws don't stop people from getting guns no matter how strict they are.

They can make it hard enough that many won't, though.

Zeren:
It's just proof that gun laws don't stop people from getting guns no matter how strict they are.

The UK has has 0.4 gun homicides per 100000 and the US has 3.6. The fact that the UK has 900% lower number of gun homicides is clearly to do with the fact the guns are very tightly controlled.

albino boo:

Zeren:
It's just proof that gun laws don't stop people from getting guns no matter how strict they are.

The UK has has 0.4 gun homicides per 100000 and the US has 3.6. The fact that the UK has 900% lower number of gun homicides is clearly to do with the fact the guns are very tightly controlled.

Either that or we have shit aim.

Looks like the manufacturer ran out of ink
They should Deport Cregan's family and see how he likes that.

Zeren:
It's just proof that gun laws don't stop people from getting guns no matter how strict they are.

Actually this raid did just that.

GoaThief:

Exactly, it makes it very hard to support very restrictive laws like you see in the UK and Ireland.

Scandinavian countries often have lax gun laws and crimes committed via firearms are very low.

Well that's because they actually take care of each other over there so fewer people are driven to violent crime in the first place.

CriticalMiss:

Either that or we have shit aim.

Probably all the video games those Americans play.

OT: Meh, gun laws or not this could mean criminals now can print guns from the safety and comfort of their home. Sounds like something that should be restricted at least, although with the internet it would be extremely difficult. I'd imagine the bullets that the firearms use will be restricted instead of the actual data.

Ultratwinkie:
... that's a gun?

Part of, they think.

I like the idea that its a 3D printed replace part for the 3d printer, as it creates this parody in my head of buying a 3d printer and then creating more 3d printers to sell - endless profit! :p

Karloff:
Cregan fired over thirty rounds, hitting each officer multiple times, and then threw a fragmentation grenade at the constables' bodies. Cregan was involved in organized crime, and claimed to have killed the constables because the police were hounding his family.

But... how? Guns are Illegal, and Grenades are too- wait, WAIT. He used a fucking fragmentation grenade!? You don't even hear of crazy shit like that here in the states.

Blachman201:

Yeah, I don't think it'll catch on too fast in America.

OT: I wonder if airport security is going to get even more invasive as these 3D printed guns become more common. Oh and the guy who sparked the Challenger operation probably should have thought about how much more the police would hound him and his family before murdering two of their people

Fasckira:

Ultratwinkie:
... that's a gun?

Part of, they think.

I like the idea that its a 3D printed replace part for the 3d printer, as it creates this parody in my head of buying a 3d printer and then creating more 3d printers to sell - endless profit! :p

That's kind of one of the the grand ideas of the 3D Printing, the more spartan 3D printer kits that you can build yourself, than manufacture most of the parts to build another using the first, and so on, so they can propagate in less industrialized areas of the world and allow people to build things they need using free open source plans available online.

Redlin5:
[quote="Blachman201" post="7.832116.20324610"]OT: I wonder if airport security is going to get even more invasive as these 3D printed guns become more common.

It's can't get much more invasive, and with current technology being used, they'd see them, plastic or not. You already have to choose between one of the following: Walking through the scanner with your hands up, which is sensitive enough that last time I went through, they detected a plastic pen cap from a Bic pen in my jeans' pocket and made me take a putdown. Or, just cutting right to the chase and letting minimum wage worker in bright blue fondle you.

Fasckira:

Ultratwinkie:
... that's a gun?

Part of, they think.

I like the idea that its a 3D printed replace part for the 3d printer, as it creates this parody in my head of buying a 3d printer and then creating more 3d printers to sell - endless profit! :p

One of the 3d printer designs out there that gets frequently iterated, called the RepRap actually has being able to produce a RepRap with a RepRap as an ultimate goal.

Phrozenflame500:
OT: Meh, gun laws or not this could mean criminals now can print guns from the safety and comfort of their home. Sounds like something that should be restricted at least, although with the internet it would be extremely difficult. I'd imagine the bullets that the firearms use will be restricted instead of the actual data.

Guns aren't tremendously complicated devices, ultimately the biggest restriction on 3d printed guns is a design where the gun itself can survive the detonation of the gunpowder, while still being made out of PLA, ABS, or similar.

They are necessarily going to be larger than similar traditional firearms (the plastic isn't as strong as metal, so it needs to be thicker to withstand the same force with a given design), and only smaller caliber rounds (because you're going to hit that line where it becomes impractical to use as a firearm before you build one that can handle the largest rounds). On the other hand, it'll also likely be impossible to trace such a gun, so if you're just after a difficult to prove murder...

tangoprime:
It's can't get much more invasive, and with current technology being used, they'd see them, plastic or not. You already have to choose between one of the following: Walking through the scanner with your hands up, which is sensitive enough that last time I went through, they detected a plastic pen cap from a Bic pen in my jeans' pocket and made me take a putdown. Or, just cutting right to the chase and letting minimum wage worker in bright blue fondle you.

Last time I went through one, it went off on my hair.

Karloff:
But the seizure may not be what it seems. It has been alleged that the parts taken in the raid are actually spare parts for the 3D printer.

So he claims to be using a 3D printer to make a 3D printer?

Call me crazy but wouldn't a plastic gun be pretty much impossible? I mean, I'd assume even attempting to fire the gun would just cause it to melt or blow up in your hand. Sure people have been trying for years to make a plastic gun, something impossible to detect by metal detectors and the such... I can't imagine the solution being found in a 3D printer.

Possible to make a good replica or a toy that way, through a 3D printer. Be fairly cool to do. Though a working firearm... I somehow doubt it.

Also, if that part at the top is supposed to be the hammer... I can't see how it would even work.

Jesus Christ, talk about jumping to conclusions here. They could easily solve this by consulting someone who either builds 3D printers or repairs standard printers for a living.

That piece in the pick looks like a retention switch or clip of some kind. It's been years since I took apart an actual printer, but that would be my best guess.

EDIT: another article, this one at theverge.com, is claiming the parts actually were from a 3D printer- http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/25/5027282/uk-police-seize-3d-printed-gun-components

Looking at the additional photo provided there, I think it's safe to say the Manchester popos didn't know what the hell they were doing when they seized the materials to begin with.

Sovvolf:
Call me crazy but wouldn't a plastic gun be pretty much impossible? I mean, I'd assume even attempting to fire the gun would just cause it to melt or blow up in your hand. Sure people have been trying for years to make a plastic gun, something impossible to detect by metal detectors and the such... I can't imagine the solution being found in a 3D printer.

Possible to make a good replica or a toy that way, through a 3D printer. Be fairly cool to do. Though a working firearm... I somehow doubt it.

Also, if that part at the top is supposed to be the hammer... I can't see how it would even work.

Actually, the technology has improved enough that 3D printing a working gun is possible. The reliability is still questionable and you need high quality materials but viable guns have been made. Articles on this were even posted on this site.

The reason why these guns are not a big deal right now is that in most cases it is easier and/or cheaper to just buy a normal metal gun.

tangoprime:

Karloff:
Cregan fired over thirty rounds, hitting each officer multiple times, and then threw a fragmentation grenade at the constables' bodies. Cregan was involved in organized crime, and claimed to have killed the constables because the police were hounding his family.

But... how? Guns are Illegal, and Grenades are too- wait, WAIT. He used a fucking fragmentation grenade!? You don't even hear of crazy shit like that here in the states.

This incident needs to be held in perspective though, as horrific and extreme as it was it was an isolated incident. Creagen was a hardened and habitual organised criminal that was probably already going to prison for the rest of his life when he set the ambush, he was wanted for double murder and his later trial found him guilty of killing two rival organised criminals. That alone with his record would have either led to a whole life order or an indefinite sentence with little chance of ever getting out, he simply wanted to kill some police officers. As he turned himself in afterwards it wasn't even a suicide by cop situation, he had nothing to lose and wanted to kill.

The grenades is unfortunately more common than you would think and they get seized every now and then here, thanks mainly due to the conflict in Northern Ireland. Criminal networks on the mainland UK set up extensive supply chains from Eastern Europe to the province to supply paramilitaries with weapons, as the conflict wound down those weapons suddenly had nowhere to go. Some paramilitaries also sold some weapons back to the black markets instead of decommissioning them.

Organised crime is scary stuff. And that dude was an evil bastard. UK gun laws are tight and this sort of thing never happenes quite shocking for me to be honest.

Keeping these things out of the hands of criminals is key, no judgement on US gun control as you guys have way to many guns to make them all vanish over night but for the UK its the challenge of keeping them from becoming common place and easy to get hold of... as through 3D printing.

Karloff:

The Challenger raids are Greater Manchester's response to the murders of PCs Fiona Bone and Nichola Hughes, in September 2013.

Just a minor correction, that happened last year, not this year.

Zykon TheLich:

Karloff:

The Challenger raids are Greater Manchester's response to the murders of PCs Fiona Bone and Nichola Hughes, in September 2013.

Just a minor correction, that happened last year, not this year.

Nuts. My error. Adjusted. Thanks!

thaluikhain:

Zeren:
It's just proof that gun laws don't stop people from getting guns no matter how strict they are.

They can make it hard enough that many won't, though.

Which only will affect people who follow the law. If you are set on commiting a crime, then I doubt you will walk into a gun store and buy a pistol from them.

You would be more likely to buy one that's been cleaned from some other criminal, or in the case of someone I know, just make one with wood, a metal tube, a nail, and some rubber bands.

yea, go ahead and laugh at that, he lived in Jamaica as a kid. He had used something like that to shoot at a small gang of people that were shooting at one of his family members.

Hell, right now, I can buy and/or make an attachment for a flare gun so that it will fire .22 rounds.

Even then, I can use a children's pop-cap toy gun to make a short range pistol that fires actual rounds.

Or, I could follow the law and purchase a firearm from a store and let them run background checks and do everything legally.

OT: if that's a picture of what they recovered, it looks more like a singleshot small caliber pistol. At the least the rear portion of one, there doesn't seem to be a way to load a round and fire it without loading from the front, and anyone that has used firearms before will tell you that you never put your hand over a muzzle that has a live round in it.

So unless it was just a back piece to a larger firearm, it looks like it might be a straight up muzzle loader. Pour in the gun powder, ball, and then ignite it with a piece of burning string.

..... Seriously though, I can imagine a bunch of modern British gangsters committing crimes with flint lock pistols made from 3d printers now.

It is hilarious.

albino boo:

The UK has has 0.4 gun homicides per 100000 and the US has 3.6. The fact that the UK has 900% lower number of gun homicides is clearly to do with the fact the guns are very tightly controlled.

First, I disagree with the idea of using "gun homicides" to measure whether gun control works. How about using the overall homicide rate?

Second, the numbers reported by the US and UK governments are not comparable, largely because of this: (source)

Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise.

According to crime statistician John Lott, if the US used the same method of counting homicides, our rate would be about 30% higher than that of the UK, instead of 400% higher.

Not to mention the UK police being pressured to keep reported crime rates low...

Kalezian:

thaluikhain:

Zeren:
It's just proof that gun laws don't stop people from getting guns no matter how strict they are.

They can make it hard enough that many won't, though.

Which only will affect people who follow the law.

Which includes people who are forced to follow the law by law enforcement. The UK law enforcement is pretty good (not perfect, though) at stopping illegal weapons use (with the notable exception of Northern Ireland).

DVS BSTrD:
Well that's because they actually take care of each other over there so fewer people are driven to violent crime in the first place.

So in essence, what you're saying is that strict gun control makes little to no difference and the way to combat violent crime, especially those that involve firearms, is to address inequality and provide decent care/quality of life for your citizens who in turn will be happier and less prone to turning to crime? I totally agree.

;)

GoaThief:

DVS BSTrD:
Well that's because they actually take care of each other over there so fewer people are driven to violent crime in the first place.

So in essence, what you're saying is that strict gun control makes little to no difference and the way to combat violent crime, especially those that involve firearms, is to address inequality and provide decent care/quality of life for your citizens who in turn will be happier and less prone to turning to crime? I totally agree.

;)

But guns it a hell of a lot easier to commit those crimes.

albino boo:
The UK has has 0.4 gun homicides per 100000 and the US has 3.6. The fact that the UK has 900% lower number of gun homicides is clearly to do with the fact the guns are very tightly controlled.

DVS BSTrD:

GoaThief:

DVS BSTrD:
Well that's because they actually take care of each other over there so fewer people are driven to violent crime in the first place.

So in essence, what you're saying is that strict gun control makes little to no difference and the way to combat violent crime, especially those that involve firearms, is to address inequality and provide decent care/quality of life for your citizens who in turn will be happier and less prone to turning to crime? I totally agree.

;)

But guns it a hell of a lot easier to commit those crimes.

albino boo:
The UK has has 0.4 gun homicides per 100000 and the US has 3.6. The fact that the UK has 900% lower number of gun homicides is clearly to do with the fact the guns are very tightly controlled.

The UK is more the size and nature of a state, however - have you got the figures for those? On mobile at the moment so it's awkward. Sources would be good too.

What about comparing it to Norway, Sweden and another EU country such as Switzerland?

CriticalMiss:

albino boo:

Zeren:
It's just proof that gun laws don't stop people from getting guns no matter how strict they are.

The UK has has 0.4 gun homicides per 100000 and the US has 3.6. The fact that the UK has 900% lower number of gun homicides is clearly to do with the fact the guns are very tightly controlled.

Either that or we have shit aim.

As evidence by the fact it took 30 rounds and a FUCKING grenade to kill 2 people... In the US that would have been a whole gang of people at a *insert latest location of random act of violence*. Damn brits need to spend some time at the firing range.

I heard about this on the radio earlier. It's a bit unnerving to me since it's very close to where I work. The part of Manchester this is in is called 'Baguley' (silent 'u') which is where I work.

I've heard a few things on the radio happening around there recently as well!

Edit:

I believe the radio report on the story did mention that it turned out not to be gun parts but, I think, parts for models. Or something like that.

Ultratwinkie:
... that's a gun?

Is my paperclip a part of a more complex home made gun too? Maybe its part of a multi-platform super weapon floating in space, waiting to strike with laser-based fury.

Hell, isn't the reciever the thing that's legally a gun?

The image in the news is the trigger componment (saw the news this morning and they explain what that image is).

Either way the new development in firearm would mean the authority should now start thinking of a new way to counteract it since one of the benefit of a plastic gun is that it will avoid metal detection (if the bullet is plastic too). Sure you could say they could make a device to melt it but something tell me it will take alot of heat to melt that.

Scarim Coral:

Ultratwinkie:
... that's a gun?

Is my paperclip a part of a more complex home made gun too? Maybe its part of a multi-platform super weapon floating in space, waiting to strike with laser-based fury.

Hell, isn't the reciever the thing that's legally a gun?

The image in the news is the trigger componment (saw the news this morning and they explain what that image is).

Either way the new development in firearm would mean the authority should now start thinking of a new way to counteract it since one of the benefit of a plastic gun is that it will avoid metal detection (if the bullet is plastic too). Sure you could say they could make a device to melt it but something tell me it will take alot of heat to melt that.

you can avoid metal detection fairly easily, and it's not really an issue when we can detect plastic just as well these days, a modern scanner is a fairly scary thing:

won't be long before these things can be used as an all in one check-up as you pass security..

thaluikhain:

Kalezian:

thaluikhain:

They can make it hard enough that many won't, though.

Which only will affect people who follow the law.

Which includes people who are forced to follow the law by law enforcement. The UK law enforcement is pretty good (not perfect, though) at stopping illegal weapons use (with the notable exception of Northern Ireland).

Granted, as long as agencies are proactive in law enforcement instead of just saying "these weapons are now illegal, now don't have one. we are just going to turn our backs to you now" will decrease crime considerably. However, even in places where firearms restrictions are so, well, strict crimes that would of been committed with a firearm are shifted to other weapons.

For example in China where a man wielding a butcher knife, which you can buy in any half decent supermarket or store, killed several children in school.

Akin to the Sandy Hook Shooting, he only killed I believe seven to eleven children instead of the twenty-eight or thirty that the Sandy Hook shooter killed, but it remains that if he had a firearm, he would of used one. He didn't, so he used the next best thing.

But using the guy as an example who killed the two police officers in the UK, he wasn't following the law. He didn't care about laws, legalities of firearms, or explosives for that matter [which by the way, was it an actual fragmentation grenade? that's beyond crazy. Here in the US we have people that will use pipebombs or such other homemade devices, but not a fricking M67, or the UK equivalent]. He set out to do one thing, and circumvented laws regarding firearm purchases and restrictions.

I'm not going to say owning a firearm will make you safer than someone who doesn't, but where I live it takes the Sheriff's Department a good ten to fifteen minutes to arrive. A lot can happen in just five minutes, and to protect myself until law enforcement arrive, I will more than likely have to use my rifle.

Saying [not you, but a majority of gun control advocates in the US] that I shouldn't be allowed to defend myself with my rifle because:

A: it holds more than 10 rounds in a magazine

B: has a pistol grip [which makes it more deadly than the exact same rifle with a traditional rifle grip]

C: can fold up [but not be fired] into a size less than 16 inches

is beyond stupid.

I would even say it's retarded.

I will even say this. Plastic isn't as strong as metal, while eventually 3d printed firearms might be a cause for concern, right now you might just get calls from annoyed corner store clerks who are reporting for the fifth time this week someone tried to rob them and the weapon exploded in their hand and if they could send an ambulance because there is a line forming behind the dumbass.

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