J.J. Abrams Yearns For Mystery In The Star Wars Universe

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How wrong exactly is it to hope that one of us breaks his neck before this comes to pass? Either was, I don't want to see that.

I hope the new movies focus on the light side of the Force. The IV-VI trilogy needs to remain the centrepiece of Star Wars, so if the prequels were a story of decline, the middle piece about the rising of a hope in the face of hopelessness, whatever comes after needs to push forward with that and expand on what it is about the Force that makes it something to have faith and hope in, which all viewers of Star Wars did. I feel Abrams is totally the wrong person to do that with his dark, dazzling and ultimately pointless previous films. He can't add substance to what was central to Star Wars. I'd rather they got KOTOR writers or fucking Eckhart Tolle to write the thing. Better some hackneyed philosophical "oomph" (whatever that is) than all dazzle and no heart.

Blood Brain Barrier:
I hope the new movies focus on the light side of the Force. The IV-VI trilogy needs to remain the centrepiece of Star Wars, so if the prequels were a story of decline, the middle piece about the rising of a hope in the face of hopelessness, whatever comes after needs to push forward with that and expand on what it is about the Force that makes it something to have faith and hope in, which all viewers of Star Wars did. I feel Abrams is totally the wrong person to do that with his dark, dazzling and ultimately pointless previous films. He can't add substance to what was central to Star Wars. I'd rather they got KOTOR writers or fucking Eckhart Tolle to write the thing. Better some hackneyed philosophical "oomph" (whatever that is) than all dazzle and no heart.

To be honest, I don't want the force to be mentioned at all. Or if it is, severely downplayed. I'd rather have a movie about smugglers and bounty hunters, scoundrels and knaves. We've seen enough of the force and like many have said here, Abrams will just add something that doesn't belong and screw it up.

Ishal:

Blood Brain Barrier:
I hope the new movies focus on the light side of the Force. The IV-VI trilogy needs to remain the centrepiece of Star Wars, so if the prequels were a story of decline, the middle piece about the rising of a hope in the face of hopelessness, whatever comes after needs to push forward with that and expand on what it is about the Force that makes it something to have faith and hope in, which all viewers of Star Wars did. I feel Abrams is totally the wrong person to do that with his dark, dazzling and ultimately pointless previous films. He can't add substance to what was central to Star Wars. I'd rather they got KOTOR writers or fucking Eckhart Tolle to write the thing. Better some hackneyed philosophical "oomph" (whatever that is) than all dazzle and no heart.

To be honest, I don't want the force to be mentioned at all. Or if it is, severely downplayed. I'd rather have a movie about smugglers and bounty hunters, scoundrels and knaves. We've seen enough of the force and like many have said here, Abrams will just add something that doesn't belong and screw it up.

What if it does belong and actually works? That would be glorious. This isn't a spin-off, it's meant to be canon. I agree let's have the smugglers and scoundrels, great, but the force is at the centre of SW. It's a good chance to redeem itself from the horrible prequels, to make a statement that is surprising and spiritual rather than just all-out action like you'd expect. And this time Abrams has help in the form of Kasdan.

Ishal:

Mycroft Holmes:

Therumancer:
but the universe was literally stepping all over his will and making it so he would do specific things.

So your interpretation of the star wars prequils is that all the space bacteria got together and planned to murder Anakin's mother because something something darkside?

And it is also your opinion that JJ Abrahms is a bad story teller? Right... ok...

JJ Abrams is a horrible writer and that is the explanation provided in the movies. You simply don't like it and neither do I, but it's the reality. The whole crux of the chosen one is in prophecy, which deals with destiny, which deals with the concept of free will. It's a stupid concept to think that the force is bacterial concentrations... but that's what's presented in the movies. Anakin was conceived by them. Space bacteria = the force, and the force created the chosen one. Free will is very much in question here.

Therumancer:
In KoToR2 the basic theme is free will

No it isn't. The most it even talks about free will is an offhanded comment by Kreia in the first 10 minutes of the game. If the basic theme of starwars was that you don't have any free will then it probably wouldn't be a pick your own dialogue, decide what happens at the end of missions kind of game.

Kreia is essentially Nietzsche, though not based entirely on him, much of her views parallel with his own. The force is stated to be a mystical energy surrounding and controlling all living things. She states that she hates the force. She poses as your teacher throughout the game and is a companion, then betrays you. You end up hating her because she manipulated you all that time, yet she herself believes she is being manipulated by the force along with everything else. It is a central theme in the game.

At 2:14 in the video, she states it outright. The game has all the choices and dialogue options, you are correct. You can decide at the end of the missions, yet in the end it's all as the Force intended. Whatever you chose was part of your destiny. Get it?

I think you messed up the quoting as I got this as a response to me. I was about to write a lengthy response to Mycroft but you covered a lot of it with a bit more brevity. At the end of the day the ease with which you found a video with Kreia is why I tell so many people to do their own research, which is probably what I would have told him to be honest, especially when he dropped that whole "Citation Needed" bit in reference to a big part of the promotion used to sell "KOTOR2" especially when it was first coming out (ie George being involved in it, albeit indirectly, through his notes and such, even before the game was released there was a lot of discussion about what big secrets about the universe were going to be dropped... and honestly it did, by approaching the whole issue of The Force directly).

One point of correction I will make though is that the space bacteria are not "The Force", they are something through which The Force works. The Force is supposed to be like a metaphysical entity that is throughout all things, it's intelligent, but isn't a being like us, or the traditional representation of a god. It tends to work through what's there and presents the illusion of free will. Those "bacteria" are as I said sort of like points of articulation on a puppet, making it easier for The Force to work through specific people and do more, more easily, without needing to
be overt about it.

The thing is that Star Wars is based more along eastern styles of spirituality and the concept of "Fate" as opposed to western ones and the belief in free will, at least in how it works in a metaphysical sense. The basic idea being that everything is predestined but very few, if any, people realize it, and even those that do cannot do anything about it. Everyone has their role to play, and every choice you make is irrelevant as the outcome was predetermined before you made it, though from your perspective you think you still made a choice. Very much "we're all players and the world is our stage" taken to an extreme, everyone simply carries out their role in the story, oblivious to what it is. This kind of belief ultimately being used to reinforce caste systems and the like, with certain people being basically chosen to do certain kinds of things. In the scope of day to day life, if someone say commits a crime he does so because he was predestined to, but the guy who lops his hands off for it was also predestined to do that. All small parts of the backround of the celestrial drama so to speak. In such cultures trying to change one's fate oftentimes has horrible repercussions, but can also be argued as itself being predestined.

In the scope of Star Wars, nobody realizes what they are doing is predestined, only one person in anything remotely considered canon even suspected it (that we know of). To them everything is "normal" and as outside viewers watching the movies it still represents entertaining stories. That said, looking in from the outside, knowing how things work, and looking at the pattern, it's easy to predict where things inevitably have to go if the work is going to maintain it's integrity within the canon. They ended the story at the highest possible point for the given cycle, since it's all down hill from there until the next one.

True Prophecy is always a touchy subject when it comes up, as by definition if the future is predetermined, nobody has any free will. Star Wars takes the approach the precognition that it always comes true, as opposed to warning as possible futures, since the very force giving the prophecies is controlling everything and is pretty much saying "this is what I'm about to do". It's hardly unique, but ultimately Star Wars was about the way the prophecy was going to be fulfilled, not whether it was true or not. Nobody questioned the validity of prophecy either (which raises some interesting questions), but rather tried to interpet it.

It's also interesting to note while I'm rambling that this also features into "Knights Of The Old Republic Online" where they go out of the way in each character's storyline to have a prophecy about them (on Voss Ka) typically something bad which they want to avert, but they are told flat out "this cannot be changed, no matter what you do,
this happens"... and it does. It's really kind of everywhere in Star Wars when the people writing it have bothered to research it.

At any rate, this is all an academic argument, the point being that Star Wars has to go in a very specific direction from this point, or else it's not Star Wars anymore. You start throwing out all the prophecies, chosen ones, etc... and it's not Star Wars anymore. What's more as a few fanboys have pointed out, understanding this allows a sort of joking explanation for some of the series more laughable elements... such as "if Imperial Storm Troopers are such an elite force, their marksmanship praised earlier when they apparently disabled a giant armored transport, how do they miss perfectly lined up shots against guys running through open rooms right in front of them?", the answer to that becomes justifiable as the characters they are missing being metaphysically favored as part of the ongoing predestined story, even if The Force isn't working through him directly in terms of mysical abilities, Han Solo is needed to play is role for example, thus anytime someone shoots at him they miss, unless there is a reason for something bad to happen to him. Ditto for that whole "WTF" moment where Obi-Wan, dangling over a ledge with Darth Maul above him, performing an incredibly improbable super-move, taking him by surprise, and winning the fight (when if he could do something like
that normally, why didn't he?). Then of course there is the most obvious one that already smacked of divine intervention, involving a little kid (Anakin) hopping into a Star Fighter with no previous piloting experience, and then more or less "accidently" out flying veteran pilots and blowing up an enemy command ship.... it's interesting stuff to think about retroactively. Honestly though I think in the original trilogy a lot of it was just action movie cliques, but in the prequels they spelled it out pretty much in 50' flaming letters for anyone who missed the "immaculate conception" reference which was to me more eye rolling than the space bacteria. :)

I always wondered to myself, what it would feel like to be a successfull person by every definition of the modern society and yet be someone who starts projects with a lot of promise and build up but never delivers anything satisfactory in the end, leaving his creations lingering in the grey corner of obscurity where they share their life with very bad story written ever.
And then i see J.J. and read his spill and can only ask: "Tell me."

Therumancer:

I think you messed up the quoting as I got this as a response to me. I was about to write a lengthy response to Mycroft but you covered a lot of it with a bit more brevity. At the end of the day the ease with which you found a video with Kreia is why I tell so many people to do their own research, which is probably what I would have told him to be honest, especially when he dropped that whole "Citation Needed" bit in reference to a big part of the promotion used to sell "KOTOR2" especially when it was first coming out (ie George being involved in it, albeit indirectly, through his notes and such, even before the game was released there was a lot of discussion about what big secrets about the universe were going to be dropped... and honestly it did, by approaching the whole issue of The Force directly).

One point of correction I will make though is that the space bacteria are not "The Force", they are something through which The Force works. The Force is supposed to be like a metaphysical entity that is throughout all things, it's intelligent, but isn't a being like us, or the traditional representation of a god. It tends to work through what's there and presents the illusion of free will. Those "bacteria" are as I said sort of like points of articulation on a puppet, making it easier for The Force to work through specific people and do more, more easily, without needing to
be overt about it.

The thing is that Star Wars is based more along eastern styles of spirituality and the concept of "Fate" as opposed to western ones and the belief in free will, at least in how it works in a metaphysical sense. The basic idea being that everything is predestined but very few, if any, people realize it, and even those that do cannot do anything about it. Everyone has their role to play, and every choice you make is irrelevant as the outcome was predetermined before you made it, though from your perspective you think you still made a choice. Very much "we're all players and the world is our stage" taken to an extreme, everyone simply carries out their role in the story, oblivious to what it is. This kind of belief ultimately being used to reinforce caste systems and the like, with certain people being basically chosen to do certain kinds of things. In the scope of day to day life, if someone say commits a crime he does so because he was predestined to, but the guy who lops his hands off for it was also predestined to do that. All small parts of the backround of the celestrial drama so to speak. In such cultures trying to change one's fate oftentimes has horrible repercussions, but can also be argued as itself being predestined.

In the scope of Star Wars, nobody realizes what they are doing is predestined, only one person in anything remotely considered canon even suspected it (that we know of). To them everything is "normal" and as outside viewers watching the movies it still represents entertaining stories. That said, looking in from the outside, knowing how things work, and looking at the pattern, it's easy to predict where things inevitably have to go if the work is going to maintain it's integrity within the canon. They ended the story at the highest possible point for the given cycle, since it's all down hill from there until the next one.

True Prophecy is always a touchy subject when it comes up, as by definition if the future is predetermined, nobody has any free will. Star Wars takes the approach the precognition that it always comes true, as opposed to warning as possible futures, since the very force giving the prophecies is controlling everything and is pretty much saying "this is what I'm about to do". It's hardly unique, but ultimately Star Wars was about the way the prophecy was going to be fulfilled, not whether it was true or not. Nobody questioned the validity of prophecy either (which raises some interesting questions), but rather tried to interpet it.

It's also interesting to note while I'm rambling that this also features into "Knights Of The Old Republic Online" where they go out of the way in each character's storyline to have a prophecy about them (on Voss Ka) typically something bad which they want to avert, but they are told flat out "this cannot be changed, no matter what you do,
this happens"... and it does. It's really kind of everywhere in Star Wars when the people writing it have bothered to research it.

At any rate, this is all an academic argument, the point being that Star Wars has to go in a very specific direction from this point, or else it's not Star Wars anymore. You start throwing out all the prophecies, chosen ones, etc... and it's not Star Wars anymore. What's more as a few fanboys have pointed out, understanding this allows a sort of joking explanation for some of the series more laughable elements... such as "if Imperial Storm Troopers are such an elite force, their marksmanship praised earlier when they apparently disabled a giant armored transport, how do they miss perfectly lined up shots against guys running through open rooms right in front of them?", the answer to that becomes justifiable as the characters they are missing being metaphysically favored as part of the ongoing predestined story, even if The Force isn't working through him directly in terms of mysical abilities, Han Solo is needed to play is role for example, thus anytime someone shoots at him they miss, unless there is a reason for something bad to happen to him. Ditto for that whole "WTF" moment where Obi-Wan, dangling over a ledge with Darth Maul above him, performing an incredibly improbable super-move, taking him by surprise, and winning the fight (when if he could do something like
that normally, why didn't he?). Then of course there is the most obvious one that already smacked of divine intervention, involving a little kid (Anakin) hopping into a Star Fighter with no previous piloting experience, and then more or less "accidently" out flying veteran pilots and blowing up an enemy command ship.... it's interesting stuff to think about retroactively. Honestly though I think in the original trilogy a lot of it was just action movie cliques, but in the prequels they spelled it out pretty much in 50' flaming letters for anyone who missed the "immaculate conception" reference which was to me more eye rolling than the space bacteria. :)

Yeah looks like I derped. That's what happens when you're in a hurry.

Mitichlorians (spelling?) are a deliberate explanation to how the force can/does work. It's said through the explanation of the immaculate conception that they were responsible for Anakin being born, and that all jedi (and thus all force sensitives?) have concentrations of them. Star Wars is something that has always played fast and loose with canon. In fact, as messy as it can be its one thing I like about the franchise. Each time a new IP crops up the people over at Wookiepedia must have kittens trying to figure out where to jam it into the timeline. But that said, the movies are the closest thing to primary source when it comes to canon. So how we interpret it may differ, the fact that Lucas decided to throw in that explanation is something big to consider.

On Destiny, yes. The Star wars original trilogy is very much the heroes journey and the various things that happen along the way. And it's not like these things weren't touched upon. Part of Han Solo's personal arc was going from saying

"Kid I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff. But nothing to make me think there some all powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy that controls my destiny."

to

"Hey Luke, may the force be with you." before getting into the Battle of Yavin.

In fact, it's tacit in that very statement. May the force be on my side, may it work through me and in my favor.

I think GO-TO has some of the best dialogue in all of KOTORII. Being a droid and thus untouched by the force he has a unique perspective. When talking to him on his ship he speculates that Revan left key infrastructure points intact such as government centers and factories. He is able to see the forces moving in the galaxy, he doesn't have the knowledge of a force sensitive like Kreia to understand it fully. But he knows they are exerting influence on events that he is seeking to stabilize. A perspective I enjoy in the Star Wars universe is that of people untouched by the force. To them, all force sensitives are Jedi. There is no Sith, especially since the red skinned race died off in the later points of the canon. Sith are just Dark Jedi, a splinter group of their religion. Good you brought up SWTOR since The Star Cabal in the imperial agent's story deals with this.

It's all about forces pushing back and forth against one another. Like you said, it's not about prophecy, everyone knows what the prophecy says, but no one really knows what it means. Anakin was supposed to bring balance, and he did, but not the way the Jedi perceived it. That's why Avellon's work in KOTOR II was so interesting. What Darth Nihilus was to the force was terrible, a breach through which he had no control. Kreia states that it's an old teaching and Nihilus was rapidly approaching the apex of its use. Making him on par with the ancient sith masters. It's easy to see how someone might seek the death of the force when things like this are possible. Jedi and other force users can do nothing to stop it, indeed it's even explained that Sith sect of assassins use it to grow in power in parallel with you. It's terrifying.

Star Wars is a very specific thing to a very specific set of fans, and what that thing is differs across the board. But only taking into account the movies. I don't think Abrams can do this if he is left to his own devices. People need to be on him at all times making sure he sticks to a coherent plan with no ass pull mysteries. The movies are very specific in their formula, and honestly I don't think they should deviate from that. So if that's what you're saying, then I agree. The stand alone side movies they plan on doing might offer more room for experimentation, I'm open to seeing it there.

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