Games Editor  Posts: 4259 Joined: 20 Dec 2005     | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1407 Joined: 16 Dec 2008     | My question is why the hell would you want an in-game walkthrough? Also Nintendo should stop getting games that only kids will enjoy, i'm afraid old time nintendo fans arn't kids anymore... |
Beat Writer  Posts: 138 Joined: 24 Aug 2006     | If you have to look at a walkthrough to complete the game, what difference does it make where you get it? Games shouldn't need walkthroughs, but most games aren't designed that way. I'm all for the existence of easy games, hard games, and everything in between. |
Beat Writer  Posts: 135 Joined: 30 Oct 2008    |
How does a walkthrough built into the game's interface mix things up more than a laptop and GameFAQs on the sofa next to you? I see no real difference except that the former leaves room for your feet (or your cat, as the case may be). If we are at the point that consulting a walkthrough is no longer a scarlet letter, I fail to see how this is a big deal. Also, the Multiplayer link goes to nothing on my computer. Edit: Way to look at the address bar, Phil. This is embarrassing. |
BANNED  Posts: 2513 Joined: 3 Dec 2008    |
I think there are a few million 8 year-olds that prove otherwise (the statistical average age of a Wii owner). User was banned for: The artist in thee. (Permanent) |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2768 Joined: 18 Sep 2007  | Nintendo has made plenty of dick moves in its past, but this isn't one of them. What the "hardcore" fail to recognise is that the game market will never grow if someone doesn't create titles that will draw in new people; appealing only to the existing customer base means that the market will shrink. I've seen this happen in gaming before, with the slow decay of the paper wargame market and the miniatures game market into niches occupied by the old guard. (The exception would be companies that broke with convention and "dumbed down" their rules so that they weren't so agonising to play.) All this yammering about the Wii comes from a tiny fraction of the market; the Wii is targeted at the rest of the population, and there lies its success. And ultimately that will enrich the industry as a whole as it brings in new blood. There's a huge streak of clannishness in game fandom these days, and I'm glad that successful companies are ignoring that instead of "giving the market what it wants" until it implodes. -- Steve |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 748 Joined: 19 Dec 2007  |
The link has a [/br] in it (by accident most likely) can you change it? Here's the working link: |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1477 Joined: 6 Feb 2008   | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1053 Joined: 1 Sep 2007 | I'd rather have full button mapping....... but this is better than making a game easy like POP....... |
Games Editor Posts: 4259 Joined: 20 Dec 2005 |
Fixed it :) thanks for the catch! |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 768 Joined: 9 Apr 2008   | As cousin_IT says, in game walkthroughs in the form of clues or hell, just what to do next have existed for a long time. Nintendo itself always seems to have prided itself of making its games accessible to everyone, long before this generation of consoles, to varying degrees of success. One more thing for those who care about 'casual' and 'hardcore' gamers. Todays casual players are tomorrows hardcore ones. Thats if you subscribe to such a ridiculous division. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 934 Joined: 22 Jul 2008    | I really don't think simplification is a bad thing. The mentioned Zelda: Ocarina of Time for example introduced automatic jumping and one context sensitive action button for multiple actions, and it's considered the best game of all time by many and much of its innovations can be still be found in games today. Also, Super Smash Bros. may be simply using two buttons, but the games are incredibly complex (at least Melee and Brawl are) and it will take a lot of time to truly master them. Paper Mario is another example, it's an extremely simplyfied RPG but I find that its battle system works much better than in many of the complex RPG's. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1053 Joined: 1 Sep 2007 |
In a sense its true, those that play some now might be hooked and play more thus raising them to hardcore status. I think "hardcore" has been co-op'ed by the industry, hardcore equates to those that buy more gaming stuff, while I think we gamers think hardcore means we hold gaming to a higher standard, unfortunately with standards at a all time low we core enthusiasts or better yet game enthusiasts have little sway or power anymore as the swing to full time disposable mass market media is more profitable than making quality products targeted at gamers first and casual media zombies second.
And metroid has a simplified control system to make it less of a FPS and more of a adventure game. Altho in the end control options are a must, nothing more do I hate than locked controls that I can not adjust. |
Muckraker  Posts: 300 Joined: 8 Dec 2008    | Nintendo's goal. Sell games to everybody, because everybody likes games. They just don't know it yet. Nintendo heard people say, "I'd play games but I just don't have the time/I can't learn the controllers/they're too violent/adolescent/complicated/expensive." Nintendo said "okay, try this" Can we really fault Nintendo for being responsive to the market. |
On the Record  Posts: 6209 Joined: 10 Mar 2008    | I can understand giving in-game hints and glimpses of what you're supposed to do and where you're supposed to go. But from what I read, it can also give you complete videos on what to do exactly when and where. To me, that's like someone building your bicycle for you and telling you to "now try your own!" You already built me the bicycle, why would I want to build another one? But I can't really complain, Nintendo does what they do so no point in moaning about it. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1053 Joined: 1 Sep 2007 |
Yes, its like making films just for kids with 1 or 2 PG13 or R films a year if ever. Its that bad. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 445 Joined: 29 May 2008   |
I disagree. Hard. You know why? There aren't games for kids. At all. No good games, at least. Ask anyone to name ten famous, good gaming franchises. How many of them are kid-friendly? Probably one, if they happen to mention Mario. Two, if they recently played (and enjoyed) Banjo Kazooie. But the bulk of the videogame industry is GTA, Halo, Call of Duty, Street Fighter, and all those nice games in which you pick up a gun and shoot the guys. What's the problem with that, you ask? Well, don't children play games, too? They do. And they either have to play uninspired franchise games that are utterly boring and anyone with a child's gaming skill can beat in a few days or throw ratings to hell and boot up Fallout 3. And that just gives ammo to Jack Thompson and their ilk. What the hell happened to Commander Keen? It's important to make good games for children because: 1. Children who play games grow up to become gamers (or, more specifically, gamers usually were children who played games) and these gamers support the industry when the current-generation softcore gamers get jobs/marriages/drafted into the army and stop playing (hardcore gamers probably keep playing until they die, but their numbers are limited and it's essentially a highly profitable but highly irrational niche). So the more children playing games there are now the more the industry will be stable ten, fifteen years from now. And a good, fun game like a Mario one has way more chances of hooking kids up than Spongebob Squarepants: Murder Every Good Game Design Concept and Disecrate Their Corpses. So, I think that the problem with the industry is not that there are too many games that "only" kids would enjoy; it's that there aren't, by far, enough of them. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1053 Joined: 1 Sep 2007 |
I can only disagree alil, while their are only a few real kids franchises game wise you have a ton of casual focused PG range games, as well as the teen and adult casual focused filler the industry so loves now. My point instead of having more solid quality games of differnting age ranges we have a tsunami of casual games that are whipped out ASAP at X target ranges in the hopes they will bring in more profit than a slower more polished product. And so far its working..... |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 716 Joined: 21 Feb 2008  |
As TheRandomOne said, most of the market is stuff like EXTREME DEATHZORS 2: MORE KILLING!!! |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1632 Joined: 21 Nov 2008 | guh i don't play a puzzle game to read a walkthrough i play it to figiure out a puzzle, god nintendo is on crack |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 4169 Joined: 6 Sep 2008   | Let me put it like this... Windows, is an inferior and unstable operating system. But it is endemic- you can't argue with the fact more people have and use windows then linux or safari. Ease of use ALWAYS beats power and utility. Always, always, always. Is it fair, is it right? Debatable, but it's a fact. Nintendo is simply bringing about the next Era of the console videogame market- don't be scared though. The High End complex market will always be there, look at PC gaming which has been "dying" since the 1980's- when console game supposedly killed it! |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1305 Joined: 20 Nov 2008  | hmm, let's see. i could make my game less complex and possibly alienate players...or i could make it less accessible and defintely alienate players. tough call.
you don't say. http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/153048/nintendo-average-age-of-wii-player-is-29-years-old/ |
BANNED Posts: 2513 Joined: 3 Dec 2008 |
Huh... I thought it was 8. Oh well. User was banned for: The artist in thee. (Permanent) |
Anonymous Source Posts: 9 Joined: 13 Jan 2009  | I don't think dumbing down in gaming hurts us as much as people seem to think. I'm in my late 20s and I really do enjoy my Wii, it's a completely different gaming experience to that of my PC or PS2. Honestly, it's also brought back a great deal of the element of sheer fun that's been missing from what Yahtzee might refer to as the "Brown Brigade" all the games that seem to feel gritty, realistic browns and greys are the best thing on gaming. They're not, the best thing in gaming is fun and if a little white box allegedly made for 8 year olds gives me fun at 28, yay me for owning one. People seem to have this opinion that as a Hardcore Gamer there's no challenge worth their time on the Wii. I'm just going to take a look at our collection here and there's a few things I see which illustrate some of the points. On the idea of giving a snapshot to hint you along to where you need to go; Zelda: Twilight Princess does this with Heart pieces, giving you encouragement to gofind them yourself rather than looking up the locations in an FAQ as you might be tempted to do when you realise you're still missing some, it's a useful mechanic neatly woven into the game. As for the more Adult games, many people cry are missing from the Wii, that's true, but only to an extent. I thoroughly enjoy the Horror-based Roguelike Baroque, and while I realise it's a port, it's an incredibly challenging game. As a sandbox game, I don't feel robbed of the GTA IV experience, since I've throughly enjoyed Bully: Scholarship Edition. For something more Unique to Wii, there's a great deal of challenge in Trauma Center: New Blood, but I realise Operation simulators are a bit of an interesting niche. There's several other games there which are a challenge to complete to 100% like Lego Star Wars and Mario Galaxy. Mario Kart is challenging in its own way for being so freaking random. Along with the huge levels in De Blob which make completionistic playstyles into a very long affair, since there's no save points (One of the game's few flaws). I guess it's a lack of FPS and similar games which many people who call themselves Hardcore find the most entertaining which causes them to turn away from the Wii and that's fair enough. For me, a Gamer of about 20 years' experience now, it's definitely got a place in the collection. It's not the only thing in it, since there are a number of game styles it doesn't have good representatives of as yet, but it's there and valued. Nintendo's not ruining gaming through simplification, it's simply creating new tihngs and marketing them very slickly, as it always has. |
Muckraker Posts: 300 Joined: 8 Dec 2008 |
Really? Pixar has never made a bad movie and they'll never release anything harder than a PG. They're movies are higher in quality than 99 percent of the stuff out there and are just as enjoyable to adults as children. In the case of Wall-E, the adults I know enjoyed the film more than the children I know. Pixar also makes a ton of money on every release, and they do it by not releasing movies that feel like they're written by a marketing company like most of the PG-13/R rated blockbusters. So really? You would fault Pixar? Anyways it's completely different. Nintendo is only being responsive to what consumers want, and they're consumers are not only children. So a more accurate comparison would be if a movie studio started making 1.5 hour movies because they made more money. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1053 Joined: 1 Sep 2007 |
Oh sorry its not so obvious to those who are still heavily using the current products of the industry, FYI quality has went to hell the hardcore gamer is nothing more than a hardcore consumer of casually made disposable mass market products. I am a gamer of 30+ years and find todays games more lacking than ones of the past, its not hat good games can not be made but with the rush to seek profit as quickly as possible the end product is oft left unfinished and under developed, if they dial back the graphics focus less time will be spent on shiny and alil more on substance. I'll admit I am a game nazi(nit picky ahole) but between all the friends I think I have we can all agree the imbalance in the industry...just some of use would rather eat than spend 100+ a month on under preforming products... So the majority of games made are shovelware, perhaps not the classic sense but with the rush to build them sell them and forget them but for random DLC most of which one must buy, they are in part shovelware....
Meh the WII is a product fad that's managed to gain an audience outside of norms, however its the evolution of gaming as interactive media evolves to either co exist equally with or "consume" contemporary mainstream media(Film/TV). My only real problem with the WII is its most casual of the industry that went into full time casual oft time inept development in the past 3 or 4 years, I liked the N64 alot more more control options in button mapping such. As gaming evolves I so wish the final say on button placement and sensitivity is up to the gamer...it would improve so many of the under devolved titles that much easier to shallow... but having to stop and relearn a unintuitive The prices are the final turn off..... |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 968 Joined: 9 Oct 2007   | Dear Nintendo, Just skip the bullshit and make all your games require only one-button to play. Then you can have access to every demographic known to mankind, even animals. I'm sure we will all enjoy pushing just one button much more. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1684 Joined: 7 Feb 2008  | Sheer ignorance is rampant in this thread. http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html Read the entire article. It was posted here on the Escapist a week or so ago and I happen to agree with the article. |
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Gaming Made Simple: A Look at Nintendo
When news broke late last week about a Nintendo patent for in-game walkthroughs, many decried the Big N for "dumbing down gaming." MTV Multiplayer has a runthrough of some of the other simplifications in game design the company has brought to gaming, from jump-free Zelda to the Gamecube's Big Green Button.
Whether or not anything ever actually comes of the patent - filed last June - honestly doesn't matter in the long run. As the piece by Stephen Totilo shows, it certainly wouldn't be the first time Nintendo has sacrificed complexity for accessibility ... and it probably won't be the last, either.
Totilo's article only covers six specific instances of simplification in gaming, so of course there are plenty other examples of that design philosophy that he doesn't mention - off the top of my head, how about Super Smash Bros' two-button fighting style? Furthermore, I'm pretty sure you all could think of some others without having to wrack your memories too much.
The question, of course, then becomes: is simplifying games good for the industry? There's no question that the ease of accessibility is at least partly responsible for Nintendo's breakaway success with the Wii and DS, and at last report those two systems were reportedly responsible for saving the industry's holiday season. Nor do I think that anyone would say that Link's auto-jumping in Ocarina of Time somehow makes it a less-than-stellar title.
If more people can play games - and not just pick them up, but play them to completion - is that good for the industry? Or will dumbing them down hurt us in the long run?
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