Valve Working on Steam Controller Compatibility for Dota 2

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Valve Working on Steam Controller Compatibility for Dota 2

Dota 2 - Main

Valve is confident that its new controller can handle complex titles like Dota 2, and we'll soon have the opportunity to decide for ourselves.

When Valve announced the Steam Controller, many gamers raised a suspicious eyebrow. The touchpad controller is unconventional, to be sure, but if Valve's sales pitch is even remotely accurate, the gamepad has a great deal of potential. However, before it'll be accepted by the community, we'll need to see this thing in action. And that's going to take a lot of behind-the-scenes footwork from Valve.

Part of Valve's spiel included a promise that the Steam Controller would be able to play PC games that weren't specifically designed with gamepads in mind. Many RPGs and MOBAs, with all of their classes and abilities, seem irreducibly complex, which means that controllers might be out of the question. But Valve is confident in its new gamepad.

"[Dota 2] is a really complex game that uses a good half of the keyboard," said Valve's Jeff Bellinghausen in a recent interview with Polygon. "And it's a real challenge, but would also be really exciting. To be able to play Dota from the couch is a really neat opportunity."

"For a game like Dota," he continued, "we're probably not going to be able to match it perfectly. You're not going to take [pro player Danylo 'Dendi' Ishutin] and have him play at his level with the controller, but that's not really the goal. That's true of the controller in general."

In the gaming world, there has always been a debate over which interface is more powerful: a keyboard or a control pad. We might actually be on the brink of discovering the answer, but like most gaming-related debates, it'll probably live forever in the bowels of the internet.

Source: Polygon

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Now I can get people in my games who don't speak english on english servers and using a less optimal method of control, thank you based Valve!

Dear god, I don't want anyone on my team to be using a controller. This is a game that is competitive and community request you play at optimal performance. Using a controller will needlessly handicap your performance, so I guess it'll best if u use the controller not to mention it.

Vaccine:
Now I can get people in my games who don't speak english on english servers and using a less optimal method of control, thank you based Valve!

So get a designated team. 90% of the problem with MOBA's is that they're extremely team based, and so when you're not with a pre-made group you're going to suffer.

PC people are gonna love when their games support a controller and then get to kick supposed ass against those that do use one.

Queue people once more downplaying the controller, time isn't going to change anytime soon.

Kheapathic:

Vaccine:
Now I can get people in my games who don't speak english on english servers and using a less optimal method of control, thank you based Valve!

So get a designated team. 90% of the problem with MOBA's is that they're extremely team based, and so when you're not with a pre-made group you're going to suffer.

I do, it's more a jab at the fact this a terrible idea.

Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

Vaccine:

Kheapathic:

Vaccine:
Now I can get people in my games who don't speak english on english servers and using a less optimal method of control, thank you based Valve!

So get a designated team. 90% of the problem with MOBA's is that they're extremely team based, and so when you're not with a pre-made group you're going to suffer.

I do, it's more a jab at the fact this a terrible idea.

Also makes things less interesting as even if you have a 5 man there is a chance someone on the other team would have a controller so it becomes a boring stomp.

its cool and everything and im happy valve are doing some cool stuff with steam os steam machines and their controls pads its alot of work. But......We are still waiting on that half-life 3 and maybe a proper sequel to Counter-strike. And just some news on some GAMES

josemlopes:
Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

It's not the amount of inputs. Its the lack of precision controllers generally have vs. KB+M. Especially for a game that pretty much controls like an RTS.

You know what was a good idea? Starcraft 64.

Actually no, that was a terrible idea.

AzrealMaximillion:

josemlopes:
Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

It's not the amount of inputs. Its the lack of precision controllers generally have vs. KB+M. Especially for a game that pretty much controls like an RTS.

Wouldnt the game control almost like any other top down shooter, almost like Diablo 3 does on consoles? Or Torchlight.

Vaccine:

Kheapathic:

Vaccine:
Now I can get people in my games who don't speak english on english servers and using a less optimal method of control, thank you based Valve!

So get a designated team. 90% of the problem with MOBA's is that they're extremely team based, and so when you're not with a pre-made group you're going to suffer.

I do, it's more a jab at the fact this a terrible idea.

Given a reasonably effective matchmaking system, method of input wouldn't matter. If you were to find yourself stuck playing against people using an inferior control interface in that case then it would mean you need to improve, not that the controller has ruined your game.

josemlopes:

AzrealMaximillion:

josemlopes:
Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

It's not the amount of inputs. Its the lack of precision controllers generally have vs. KB+M. Especially for a game that pretty much controls like an RTS.

Wouldnt the game control almost like any other top down shooter, almost like Diablo 3 does on consoles? Or Torchlight.

It would

Except that Dota 2 requires that you be able to effectively control more than one unit, this is where the real difficulty lies.

There are some heroes that would simply be damn near impossible to play with a controller, at least any of the current ones, there's just no good way to do it.

Vivi22:
Given a reasonably effective matchmaking system

And that's kinda where this whole thing breaks down.

josemlopes:
Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

At the most basic level; you need the mouse to select units, move the character, move the camera and aim your skills. "QWER DF"(default) for skills and "123456"(lol) or "zxcvbn"(dota2) to use the items. Not to mention "tab" or "°" to show the score board "A" for propper lasthitting/denying, "S" for stoping or animation cancelling(dota2) and things get really nasty when you include the micro required to play certain heroes or use certain items in both Dota2 and LoL. If you want to play something like legacy Invoker that requires 14 keys just for the skills that's just out of the question.

Anyway, I don't think it's impossible, they need to think outside the box. Just mapping the keys on the controller won't be enough, they'll have to add workarounds in the game for a controller interface (a good idea would be mapping the movement on the left trackpad). And for the record, it would be somewhat easier to get that controller working for LoL or Smite than Dota2.

It would have to be something close to Guardians of The Middle Earth on consoles, but a lot less ass.

josemlopes:

AzrealMaximillion:

josemlopes:
Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

It's not the amount of inputs. Its the lack of precision controllers generally have vs. KB+M. Especially for a game that pretty much controls like an RTS.

Wouldnt the game control almost like any other top down shooter, almost like Diablo 3 does on consoles? Or Torchlight.

Again, the controls being converted isn't the issue. It's the precision that controllers lack. Keep in mind that DOTA 2 is a very team based game. If even one person using a controller isn't precise, the whole team fails.

Maerx:

josemlopes:
Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

And for the record it would be somewhat easier to get that controller working for LoL or Smite than Dota2.

It would have to be something close to Guardians of The Middle Earth on consoles, but a lot less ass.

With emphasis on Smite, lol.

Yeah... Due to it being a super track pad of some sort, you might be able to get the precision bit, but trying to get all the keys DOTA needs onto that controller's gonna be a bitch... Though I suppose they could do something like holding the shoulder buttons down to "change" what the right touch pad does, and that gives you 20 options there.

JaceArveduin:
With emphasis on Smite, lol.

Yeah... Due to it being a super track pad of some sort, you might be able to get the precision bit, but trying to get all the keys DOTA needs onto that controller's gonna be a bitch... Though I suppose they could do something like holding the shoulder buttons down to "change" what the right touch pad does, and that gives you 20 options there.

Or something like an item wheel.

They're Valve anyway. Embracing feedback is one of their strengths.

AzrealMaximillion:

josemlopes:

AzrealMaximillion:
It's not the amount of inputs. Its the lack of precision controllers generally have vs. KB+M. Especially for a game that pretty much controls like an RTS.

Wouldnt the game control almost like any other top down shooter, almost like Diablo 3 does on consoles? Or Torchlight.

Again, the controls being converted isn't the issue. It's the precision that controllers lack. Keep in mind that DOTA 2 is a very team based game. If even one person using a controller isn't precise, the whole team fails.

One of the great things about being a human is being able to compensate or practice. Just because a controller doesn't allow for a level of precision, if the user can hit everything they want to do they're not a liability.

AzrealMaximillion:

josemlopes:

AzrealMaximillion:
It's not the amount of inputs. Its the lack of precision controllers generally have vs. KB+M. Especially for a game that pretty much controls like an RTS.

Wouldnt the game control almost like any other top down shooter, almost like Diablo 3 does on consoles? Or Torchlight.

Again, the controls being converted isn't the issue. It's the precision that controllers lack. Keep in mind that DOTA 2 is a very team based game. If even one person using a controller isn't precise, the whole team fails.

I assume DotA 2 has a rank based matchmaking system, so you should only be matched with people of a similar skill. If users of controllers are terrible, then they'll get automatched with terrible players of both the mouse and keyboard and the controller variety.

In my HoN experience, lesser skilled players are way less of a hindrance to the team than the asshole who doesn't shut up about lesser skilled players and how they're ruining their stats. Lesser skilled players have the chance to improve, while the assholes will continue to blame everyone but themselves and never learn how to improve.

Kheapathic:

AzrealMaximillion:

josemlopes:
Wouldnt the game control almost like any other top down shooter, almost like Diablo 3 does on consoles? Or Torchlight.

Again, the controls being converted isn't the issue. It's the precision that controllers lack. Keep in mind that DOTA 2 is a very team based game. If even one person using a controller isn't precise, the whole team fails.

One of the great things about being a human is being able to compensate or practice. Just because a controller doesn't allow for a level of precision, if the user can hit everything they want to do they're not a liability.

The failure of the cross platform online multiplay for the ShadowRun fps would prove you wrong.

Kheapathic:

AzrealMaximillion:

josemlopes:
Wouldnt the game control almost like any other top down shooter, almost like Diablo 3 does on consoles? Or Torchlight.

Again, the controls being converted isn't the issue. It's the precision that controllers lack. Keep in mind that DOTA 2 is a very team based game. If even one person using a controller isn't precise, the whole team fails.

One of the great things about being a human is being able to compensate or practice. Just because a controller doesn't allow for a level of precision, if the user can hit everything they want to do they're not a liability.

If that were the case then people playing the ShadowRun FPS on the 360 would not have gotten routinely stomped out by the PC players every single time in cross platform play. Sorry but controllers are not good enough to be used side by side for most multiplayer games. Controllers only have an advantage in fighting games and racing titles. Games like FPS and strategy like DOTA2, its not debatable.

AzrealMaximillion:
If that were the case then people playing the ShadowRun FPS on the 360 would not have gotten routinely stomped out by the PC players every single time in cross platform play. Sorry but controllers are not good enough to be used side by side for most multiplayer games. Controllers only have an advantage in fighting games and racing titles. Games like FPS and strategy like DOTA2, its not debatable.

The failure of the cross platform online multiplay for the ShadowRun fps would prove you wrong.[/quote]

Never played Shadowrun, not much of a FPS guy. At the same time I was unaware MOBA's require the skill precision of headshots.

Ooph. While I admire their tenacity in trying to find a way to make this controller work for games like Dota 2, I'm just not sure they'll pull it off.

Perhaps they'll find a way by combining context-specific mappings and an altered UI, but it'll be damned hard to find an effective system.

josemlopes:
Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

Technically, at a professional level, yes. There are.

Oh god. Can you imagine trying to play a hero like Meepo or Invoker with that controller? Or Chen? Or Enchantress? Or even Visage? Yeah, probably not going to work very well.

There are just too many intricacies in Dota and I assume ARTS in general (this is the only one I've played) for a controller to be enough. I can't imagine anyone opting for this input method for the game when they have a choice of playing with a keyboard and mouse. I mean, imagine trying to move the camera, move your hero, and issue commands on a controller. Seems like it would be clunky as hell. There's only so many commands you can put on triggers/bumpers.

Shadow-Phoenix:
PC people are gonna love when their games support a controller and then get to kick supposed ass against those that do use one.

Queue people once more downplaying the controller, time isn't going to change anytime soon.

Its easy to downplay it. The game is not made for it thus your performance is going to suck.

I've played batman AA with a KB and mouse and with a controller, the game was built for the controller but is playable with a mouse and KB its just much more fluid with the controller and easier to control.

My point being its not really the controller tho in this case its not the best of controllers but that aside the game is just not built for it.

That controller has 16 buttons or so, right? Let's see, one for scoreboard, six buttons for skills, the items you could put on the same buttons as the skills with a modifier, so one more, the same can be done with control groups, so two more (one as modifier, one for assigning groups) and then you'd have enough room for all the other stuff like quick buy, stop, courier and maybe even a chat wheel or two. It'd probably also be a good idea to enable dota_force_right_click_attack and make it work properly to eliminate the need for attack.
You can definitely make the keys work, I think the bigger problem would be the lack of precision and speed with the trackpads.

Maerx:
If you want to play something like legacy Invoker that requires 14 keys just for the skills that's just out of the question.

You'd obviously use QWERTZ for skills and not the legacy keys. Legacy doesn't have any purpose on a controller anyway.

Vigormortis:

Technically, at a professional level, yes. There are.

I doubt any kind of professional or even high skill level in general matters here, this is aimed more at casual folk to whom an increase in reaction/input time doesn't make that much of a difference.

The biggest question is scrolling speed and precision. Dota has a few skillshots and tons of target point abilities, aiming those in crowds could prove difficult.

josemlopes:
Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

You really have no idea. The micro management just in controlling last hits in the laning phase will be a nightmare, and that's one of the most vital part of the game. Fail to control the Clinkz' farm, and he'll murder your everything when he has a 12 minute orchid.

I really want to see what's possible with the Steam Controller API. Even if I don't by a Steam Machine anytime soon, I'll probably get my hands on one of these controllers out of curiosity.

Vaccine:
Now I can get people in my games who don't speak english on english servers and using a less optimal method of control, thank you based Valve!

Kinda your skill's fault if controller people get matched with you :p

josemlopes:
Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

6 skill buttons
6 item buttons
hero hotkey
shop hotkey
select all units or select all other units (to your preference)
courier hotkey
shift for action queueing
alt modifier for pinging, drawing on the map, toggling autoattack
ctrl modifier for leveling up, caution pings, assigning groups
group hotkeys
glyph hotkey (can be left out imo)
buyback hotkey (can be left out imo)
taunt and action item hotkey (can be left out)
attack hotkey
hold position hotkey
move hotkey
tab for switching between multiple selected units
left mouse click
right mouse click
middle mouse click for dragging
mouse movement
up/down/left/right for camera movement (can be left out with mouse, but maybe needed with controller)

Those are the ones I use. Traditional controllers would have the biggest problem with mouse movement. But even with the Steam Controller, it can be straining I believe, but maybe if you are used to it, it works with ease.

I like valve and im Overall pleased with the way they handled dota(ofc things coud still be better), but if this gets implemented and console players can actually join in the pc pool it will be the death of the greatest multiplayer game I have ever played.

DaViller:
I like valve and im Overall pleased with the way they handled dota(ofc things coud still be better), but if this gets implemented and console players can actually join in the pc pool it will be the death of the greatest multiplayer game I have ever played.

So basically what you're trying to say is:

image

because that's exactly what you're making yourself look like right now.

josemlopes:
Wait, DOTA 2 (and MOBAs in general) are complex for a controller? Are there really that many inputs in these games that a controller cant handle?

I don't think it's complexity that makes using a controller a bad idea but rather the fact that these types of games require a certain amount of finesse that controllers lack. I'm not saying using a controller wouldn't work, in fact it would probably be great for more noncompetitive players. But as far as competitive play is concerned, I don't think controller support will really catch on.

Shadow-Phoenix:
snip

Dude just leave it allright.

Indeed large influxes of new players are already a problem (not theyr existense, just the way they are handled), since the matchmaking is very far from perfect and often fails to provide matches in a reasonable skill range. However there are ways to handle a new, bad (a slot that I fill up quite often as well) or even complete asshole player, mostly you can be confident that they are capable of using a point and click spell or of attacking a stunned hero. You can communicate with them and work things out (hell I once a absolutly awesome game with 2 guys who called me a "son of a russian whore" 4 minutes in), it wont always happen but itīs at least possible.

But what happens when I play with or against a guy who is naturally handicapped and simply canīt respond to whats happening in the game in time? He will be useless no matter wich situation you put him in or how much you communicate with him. Itīs kinda hard to explain this to a none dota player (im just gonna assume this and apologize if it is untrue), trust me this would completly destroy the game for everyone involved.

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