Dungeons & Dragons Next Release Date, New Product, Leak - Update

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Dungeons & Dragons Next Release Date, New Product, Leak - Update

D&D Next Dragon

Update 3/3/2014, 2:25 PM EST: Wizards of the Coast has returned an official no comment, saying they had nothing to share at this time. That likely means the release dates are real ones.

Original Story: It's no big secret that Wizards of the Coast is working on the new edition of Dungeons & Dragons to release this year, and courtesy of book retailer Barnes & Noble, we've got a look at the dates: A starter set will release for $19.99 on July 15th, with the Player's Handbook releasing a month later on August 19 for $49.95. The starter set is the big news here, as it was already a given that Wizards would release the big new edition a a few days after it premieres at Gen Con. The starter set will likely, if we use the release of D&D's Fourth Edition as an example, be a complete adventure containing premade characters and an abridged version of the rules - similar to what designer Mike Mearls outlines here.

There's no word yet on whether or not the starter set will be tied into Wizards' Multimedia Tyranny of Dragons event, but given that Wizards says the event will launch "this summer" and the starter set releases in July, it's looking likely - which would mean that the default starter setting for Dungeons & Dragons would be the Forgotten Realms.

This may mean that the relatively final version of the text is heading to printers soon, which makes sense given designer Mike Mearls' recent detailing of various cut game features. This may also mean we know a real release date for WizKids' new line of official Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures, as those are intended to go along with the Tyranny of Dragons event.

We've reached out to Wizards of the Coast for comment, but have as yet received no response. We'll update as soon as we know more.

Here are the pages for the Starter Set and the Player's Handbook at Barnes & Noble. We've included screenshots below in case the product pages get taken down.

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I'm more curious about why the word "Next" is suddenly more popular to use in naming your next game. EQN, and now this. Is "next" gonna become a new "thing" when it comes to naming games? 'cuz, I gotta say, it feels a little uncreative.

Guess it could be worse. The whole "game's title substitutes a letter for a number" naming thing (like "Thi4f" or "F3AR") was getting a little obnoxious and stale, anyways.

In any case, it's interesting to see D&D taking another step towards trying to bring back players. Though I suspect it may only drive away even more of their existing ones, as 4th Ed allegedly did.

CriticKitten:
as 4th Ed allegedly did.

Its interesting, I keep hearing people berating 4e and referring to it as "Tabletop WOW" for example, yet all the D&D players I know play it over 3.5. I do sometimes wonder if its just one of these things that's hip to point and laugh at but secretly play.

Meanwhile, the Pathfinder crew are still chuckling away and stroking their beards.

$49.95 for the PHB? Seems a bit steep to me considering 3, 3.5, 4th, and even Essentials were all $35 or less. I'm not sure how succesful this game thinks it's gonna be when it requires a minimum $150 investment right off the bat (I'm assuming there's gonna be a DMG and MM at the same price) and PDF's of all the books will probably be pirated within weeks of the games existance.

The Hungry Samurai:
$49.95 for the PHB? Seems a bit steep to me considering 3, 3.5, 4th, and even Essentials were all $35 or less. I'm not sure how succesful this game thinks it's gonna be when it requires a minimum $150 investment right off the bat (I'm assuming there's gonna be a DMG and MM at the same price) and PDF's of all the books will probably be pirated within weeks of the games existance.

I'm guessing either the PHB contains all of the material that would have been in the DMG, or it comes with a substantial amount of extra content like tokens, cards, software, etc. It's also possible that the price point is just a placeholder.

Putting all the PHB and DMG material into one book actually sounds like a good idea, but I'm worried that price would be too high a barrier for new players.

Its interesting that they decided to make the default setting something relatively well known rather than generic.

The $50 price tag for PHB is kind of harsh. If true its kind of a weird choice since so much of the Next rule set is already out there. I suppose thats good though. Not buying the PHB isn't going to completely stop you from playing the game.

Edit: Some folks seem to think that the PHB is actually all you need if you want to play premade adventures. So you only need the DMG and MM if you want to roll your own.

blalien:

The Hungry Samurai:
$49.95 for the PHB? Seems a bit steep to me considering 3, 3.5, 4th, and even Essentials were all $35 or less. I'm not sure how succesful this game thinks it's gonna be when it requires a minimum $150 investment right off the bat (I'm assuming there's gonna be a DMG and MM at the same price) and PDF's of all the books will probably be pirated within weeks of the games existance.

I'm guessing either the PHB contains all of the material that would have been in the DMG, or it comes with a substantial amount of extra content like tokens, cards, software, etc. It's also possible that the price point is just a placeholder.

Putting all the PHB and DMG material into one book actually sounds like a good idea, but I'm worried that price would be too high a barrier for new players.

If they combined PHB and DMG into one book I'd be thrilled and happily drop $50 on that, but years of a 3 core book system, despite EVERY other popular P&P RPG doing otherwise, has left me doubtful.

Bah, my buddies and I still play 2nd Edition which we have been playing since the 90s and I don't see this latest edition changing that. I find that even today 2nd Edition just has the most content out there for it between all the class books and different settings like Planescape/Dark Sun/Spelljammer etc and then added to that the 20 years of Dragon Magazine that had original content and it's simply massive.

While I've not actually counted to get an exact number if I had to guess I would say that between all the books and modules and miscellaneous things like the decks and such that they put out my 2nd Edition collection is pushing around 1000 items not counting the magazines. Although lately I've taken to trying to get as much as I can in digital format as it's a whole lot easier carrying around a single tablet that weighs next to nothing than it is to carry around 100+ pounds of books.

I've been spoiled by the fast-paced action of Edge of the Empire, and I doubt that this will attract me unless it goes in a similar direction.

CriticKitten:
Guess it could be worse. The whole "game's title substitutes a letter for a number" naming thing (like "Thi4f" or "F3AR") was getting a little obnoxious and stale, anyways.

You don't want to see Dungeon5 and Dragon5? ;)

CriticKitten:

In any case, it's interesting to see D&D taking another step towards trying to bring back players. Though I suspect it may only drive away even more of their existing ones, as 4th Ed allegedly did.

Next is basically 3.5 without all of the tables and other minutia. The core crowd is generally pretty happy with it. (As happy as they are with anything.) What will be interesting to see is if just core DnD players can sustain the brand.

Fasckira:

CriticKitten:
as 4th Ed allegedly did.

Its interesting, I keep hearing people berating 4e and referring to it as "Tabletop WOW" for example, yet all the D&D players I know play it over 3.5. I do sometimes wonder if its just one of these things that's hip to point and laugh at but secretly play.

Meanwhile, the Pathfinder crew are still chuckling away and stroking their beards.

People tend to prefer the systems they start with. Did your friends start with 4e? The problem a lot of players have with 4e is that often your choices don't have a lot of effect on your character mechanically. So it's a good starter wargaming system for beginners, but it's too simplified for those who want their roleplaying choices to have an effect on and be reflected in the gameplay. Also most people who want to play a 3.5 type game these days will play Pathfinder instead because well, it's D&D 3.75 and it's still in print.

That said if WotC make the Forgotten Realms their main setting that'll be a pretty shrewd move. That's been arguably their most popular setting since the 90s, and is probably the one most likely to get non-gamers to try the game out.

blalien:

The Hungry Samurai:
$49.95 for the PHB? Seems a bit steep to me considering 3, 3.5, 4th, and even Essentials were all $35 or less. I'm not sure how succesful this game thinks it's gonna be when it requires a minimum $150 investment right off the bat (I'm assuming there's gonna be a DMG and MM at the same price) and PDF's of all the books will probably be pirated within weeks of the games existance.

I'm guessing either the PHB contains all of the material that would have been in the DMG, or it comes with a substantial amount of extra content like tokens, cards, software, etc. It's also possible that the price point is just a placeholder.

Putting all the PHB and DMG material into one book actually sounds like a good idea, but I'm worried that price would be too high a barrier for new players.

Nah, if they were going to have the PHB and the DMG rolled into one book they'd do what Pathfinder (and every other game system) does, call it "The Core Rulebook" instead. I'm gonna go ahead and say this is WotC being greedy, because it's WotC/Hasbro. Have you felt how thin and flimsy the cards they make for board games feel next to the MtG cards? So what if the cards bend and tear easy, that probably saved them a whole percentage of a penny!
And this is the company that had features for DMs for free on their site, then later decided to put them behind a paywall as an extra incentive for an overpriced monthly subscription service.

This just reminds me that I need to try the (N)WoD, now where did I put those d10s...

Super Not Cosmo:
Bah, my buddies and I still play 2nd Edition which we have been playing since the 90s and I don't see this latest edition changing that. I find that even today 2nd Edition just has the most content out there for it between all the class books and different settings like Planescape/Dark Sun/Spelljammer etc and then added to that the 20 years of Dragon Magazine that had original content and it's simply massive.

While I've not actually counted to get an exact number if I had to guess I would say that between all the books and modules and miscellaneous things like the decks and such that they put out my 2nd Edition collection is pushing around 1000 items not counting the magazines. Although lately I've taken to trying to get as much as I can in digital format as it's a whole lot easier carrying around a single tablet that weighs next to nothing than it is to carry around 100+ pounds of books.

Hell yeah!! and we call it Advanced! this ain't no cliff note version table top game that all the kiddies play today. We had exact rules for everything imaginable, because we would(still are) imagine every approach to the game. Kids and their digital stuff have no imagination.

Ratty:

blalien:

The Hungry Samurai:
$49.95 for the PHB? Seems a bit steep to me considering 3, 3.5, 4th, and even Essentials were all $35 or less. I'm not sure how succesful this game thinks it's gonna be when it requires a minimum $150 investment right off the bat (I'm assuming there's gonna be a DMG and MM at the same price) and PDF's of all the books will probably be pirated within weeks of the games existance.

I'm guessing either the PHB contains all of the material that would have been in the DMG, or it comes with a substantial amount of extra content like tokens, cards, software, etc. It's also possible that the price point is just a placeholder.

Putting all the PHB and DMG material into one book actually sounds like a good idea, but I'm worried that price would be too high a barrier for new players.

Nah, if they were going to have the PHB and the DMG rolled into one book they'd do what Pathfinder (and every other game system) does, call it "The Core Rulebook" instead. I'm gonna go ahead and say this is WotC being greedy, because it's WotC/Hasbro. Have you felt how thin and flimsy the cards they make for board games feel next to the MtG cards? So what if the cards bend and tear easy, that probably saved them a whole percentage of a penny!
And this is the company that had features for DMs for free on their site, then later decided to put them behind a paywall as an extra incentive for an overpriced monthly subscription service.

This just reminds me that I need to try the (N)WoD, now where did I put those d10s...

Can we at least wait until we have all the relevant information before getting on the anti-Wizards bandwagon? Seriously, this happens every time any tiny detail about D&D Next gets revealed. It's getting old.

blalien:
Can we at least wait until we have all the relevant information before getting on the anti-Wizards bandwagon? Seriously, this happens every time any tiny detail about D&D Next gets revealed. It's getting old.

I didn't say that D&D Next will be a bad game, from how long the playtesting has been going on I expect it to be very good actually. I said WotC is a nickle and dimeing, penny pinching company. You're confusing criticism of the business practices of WotC with criticisms of Nexte as a game.

Baldr:

Super Not Cosmo:
Bah, my buddies and I still play 2nd Edition which we have been playing since the 90s and I don't see this latest edition changing that. I find that even today 2nd Edition just has the most content out there for it between all the class books and different settings like Planescape/Dark Sun/Spelljammer etc and then added to that the 20 years of Dragon Magazine that had original content and it's simply massive.

While I've not actually counted to get an exact number if I had to guess I would say that between all the books and modules and miscellaneous things like the decks and such that they put out my 2nd Edition collection is pushing around 1000 items not counting the magazines. Although lately I've taken to trying to get as much as I can in digital format as it's a whole lot easier carrying around a single tablet that weighs next to nothing than it is to carry around 100+ pounds of books.

Hell yeah!! and we call it Advanced! this ain't no cliff note version table top game that all the kiddies play today. We had exact rules for everything imaginable, because we would(still are) imagine every approach to the game. Kids and their digital stuff have no imagination.

*high five* i like you two

its the one advantage of the digital age. less broken spines from lugging around dozens of books, although the books still have that it factor.

bah all these people referring to it as 2ed! its AD&D you peasants !

I don't guess I'd pay fifty dollars for one-third of the core rule books. This is ridiculous.

Super Not Cosmo:
Bah, my buddies and I still play 2nd Edition which we have been playing since the 90s and I don't see this latest edition changing that. I find that even today 2nd Edition just has the most content out there for it between all the class books and different settings like Planescape/Dark Sun/Spelljammer etc and then added to that the 20 years of Dragon Magazine that had original content and it's simply massive.

While I've not actually counted to get an exact number if I had to guess I would say that between all the books and modules and miscellaneous things like the decks and such that they put out my 2nd Edition collection is pushing around 1000 items not counting the magazines. Although lately I've taken to trying to get as much as I can in digital format as it's a whole lot easier carrying around a single tablet that weighs next to nothing than it is to carry around 100+ pounds of books.

If I recall correctly you can probably find all of the source books for AD&D in PDF format, I would be emailing those to your tablets.

It's probably buried on the wizards server too.

I wonder if they are going to burn Faerun, again.

aelreth:

Super Not Cosmo:
Bah, my buddies and I still play 2nd Edition which we have been playing since the 90s and I don't see this latest edition changing that. I find that even today 2nd Edition just has the most content out there for it between all the class books and different settings like Planescape/Dark Sun/Spelljammer etc and then added to that the 20 years of Dragon Magazine that had original content and it's simply massive.

While I've not actually counted to get an exact number if I had to guess I would say that between all the books and modules and miscellaneous things like the decks and such that they put out my 2nd Edition collection is pushing around 1000 items not counting the magazines. Although lately I've taken to trying to get as much as I can in digital format as it's a whole lot easier carrying around a single tablet that weighs next to nothing than it is to carry around 100+ pounds of books.

If I recall correctly you can probably find all of the source books for AD&D in PDF format, I would be emailing those to your tablets.

It's probably buried on the wizards server too.

I wonder if they are going to burn Faerun, again.

Yeah you can buy PDFs of most RPGs these days, and Wizards is selling at least some of the TSR library in this format. http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/index.php https://www.rpgnow.com/

Let's just say I'm more than a bit perturbed about yet ANOTHER D&D product being released by WotC. I'll go into my own history with the game briefly, and from that, you might understand why I'm upset.

The first set I ever got was in 1981, a box set with the Basic rulebook, and the Expert rulebook in it, with 1 module called Keep on the Borderlands, the dice, character sheets (not enough for several people to play, but enough to study to make your own). The only things that box didn't have in it were paper to write on, pencils to write with, and my own imagination. It took me 20 minutes to figure out the rules, the system, combat, etc. Between 1983 and 1985, I acquired the full set of AD&D 1Ed rulebooks (with the orange spines) ending the collection with Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures (all with that same orange spine). The rules were expanded upon, but not changed. Psionics (as an optional system, and at random, and even then, only 1% of the characters could use it) was introduced. In 1989, the 2nd Ed rules were introduced, and examined thoroughly (by me), and there was one rule that had to be thrown out. The THAC0 rule. It didn't make sense to me or anyone else I knew. The Assassin and Monk were removed as playable classes. I stopped playing with that version of the rules, and started in the DM role, and that's where I found the 2nd version wanting. So the players and I decided to use the 1st ed, 1st version rules (with the orange spines) and found that the games were flowing far easier.

I did not buy the 2nd Ed, and had looked at WotC's version of 3.0, and that's where the system itself didn't make any sense. the 3E rules were the first to be made by WotC. To an old hand like myself, new stuff doesn't look right, act right, or feel right. Too much work causes a game to lag, and the players hate lagging gaming, even in the table top versions.

Another D&D product (with the notable exception of the re-release of the 1E rules) will most likely win over new people, but again, will leave old hands like myself out of the loop yet again. The first edition was great, the rest, IMO, blew it. Installing the d20 system caused more harm than good.

As an aside, what's wrong with THAC0? Hear people complaining about it, but isn't it just what you need to roll To Hit Armour Class Zero, and if the armour class isn't zero, it changes what you need to roll?

Seems reasonable to me.

The Hungry Samurai:
$49.95 for the PHB? Seems a bit steep to me considering 3, 3.5, 4th, and even Essentials were all $35 or less.

Inflation exists. According to this calculator 21 ($35) in 2000 is equivalent to 30 ($50) today, so the price seems to be exactly right relative to 3rd edition at least. While later editions may have been cheaper, they can't just keep dropping the price forever so at some point there has to be a step back up again.

thaluikhain:
As an aside, what's wrong with THAC0? Hear people complaining about it, but isn't it just what you need to roll To Hit Armour Class Zero, and if the armour class isn't zero, it changes what you need to roll?

Seems reasonable to me.

There's no arguing with THAC0 people I've learned, it makes sense to them but to everyone else it seems a little weird... I would say it has to do with the "oddity" of the Math more than anything specifically wrong with the concept of "To Hit Armour Class 0" as, at least to me, it seems as if it'll require some head math with nearly every attack, too many floating modifiers... if that makes any sense...

PedroSteckecilo:

thaluikhain:
As an aside, what's wrong with THAC0? Hear people complaining about it, but isn't it just what you need to roll To Hit Armour Class Zero, and if the armour class isn't zero, it changes what you need to roll?

Seems reasonable to me.

There's no arguing with THAC0 people I've learned, it makes sense to them but to everyone else it seems a little weird... I would say it has to do with the "oddity" of the Math more than anything specifically wrong with the concept of "To Hit Armour Class 0" as, at least to me, it seems as if it'll require some head math with nearly every attack, too many floating modifiers... if that makes any sense...

Well, how does it work nowdays then? Surely you've got to do some maths to determine it?

I dont want to see what theyve done to Faerun this time. Im willing to try Next's system but Im probably still going to use lore and fluff from 3.5 and prior.

LiMaSaRe:
I dont want to see what theyve done to Faerun this time. Im willing to try Next's system but Im probably still going to use lore and fluff from 3.5 and prior.

D&D 5e is a solid system and if you're coming off from 3.5 you're going to enjoy it. It got rid of a lot of the needless complexity that 3.5 had. The playtest also did a good job of getting player feedback in there to further refine the rules. The complexity of rules might change when more sourcebooks come out.

The only problem I have is that it runs on a D20 system which I no longer enjoy anymore. Like all the previous editions of D&D the mechanics doesn't support the character concepts. The grids hamper player creativity as well imo.

Source: I'm a GM to a Shadowrun 5e and a D&D 5e playtest campaign. I'm currently eagerly waiting to finish my D&D campaign so I can run another system (I'm retiring from D20).

thaluikhain:

PedroSteckecilo:

thaluikhain:
As an aside, what's wrong with THAC0? Hear people complaining about it, but isn't it just what you need to roll To Hit Armour Class Zero, and if the armour class isn't zero, it changes what you need to roll?

Seems reasonable to me.

There's no arguing with THAC0 people I've learned, it makes sense to them but to everyone else it seems a little weird... I would say it has to do with the "oddity" of the Math more than anything specifically wrong with the concept of "To Hit Armour Class 0" as, at least to me, it seems as if it'll require some head math with nearly every attack, too many floating modifiers... if that makes any sense...

Well, how does it work nowdays then? Surely you've got to do some maths to determine it?

I've not played any AD&D 1e or 2e (I'd like to try it, but you need a group for that of course) but I think what really throws most people off about THAC0 is that a lower armor class is better. People like to think that a higher armor class = more armor and thus more protection = harder to hit. Rather than a higher AC meaning you're more bulky/unprotected and likely to be hit/take more damage like in THAC0.

thaluikhain:
Well, how does it work nowdays then? Surely you've got to do some maths to determine it?

THAC0:

1. The attacker rolls and adds modifiers.
2. The attacker subtracts the modified roll from their THAC0.
3. The result is compared to the defender's AC.

A player rolls 12 with a +2 modifier to attack an enemy with AC 5. The player's THAC0 is 16.
The player's attack will hit an AC of 2 or worse. The enemy's AC is higher than 2. Hit!

Ascending AC:

1. The attacker rolls and adds modifiers.
2. The result is compared to the defender's AC.

A player rolls 12 with a +2 modifier to attack an enemy with AC 10.
The player's attack is higher than the enemy's AC. Hit!

THAC0 is fine, it's just that the ascending AC systems are more elegant and intuitive. It's always personal preference, but THAC0 does tend to slow thing down.

thaluikhain:
As an aside, what's wrong with THAC0? Hear people complaining about it, but isn't it just what you need to roll To Hit Armour Class Zero, and if the armour class isn't zero, it changes what you need to roll?

Seems reasonable to me.

I'm inclined to agree. You get so many attack modifiers in the later editions that it becomes at least as much of a headache to keep track of them as THAC0 was. It's a bit of an odd system, but I never really understood why people dislike it so much.

Kahani:

The Hungry Samurai:
$49.95 for the PHB? Seems a bit steep to me considering 3, 3.5, 4th, and even Essentials were all $35 or less.

Inflation exists. According to this calculator 21 ($35) in 2000 is equivalent to 30 ($50) today, so the price seems to be exactly right relative to 3rd edition at least. While later editions may have been cheaper, they can't just keep dropping the price forever so at some point there has to be a step back up again.

I'm going to have to disagree there. Yes the value of the dollar has gone up, but look at the prices of these PHB's

2nd ed $30 (1989)
3rd ed $20 (2000)
3.5 ed $35 (2003)
4th ed $30 (2008)
Essentials $20 (2010)

Somehow I doubt that the increase is waranted especially when you consider most gaming books can be run with the purchase of only ONE core rulebook as opposed to D&D's common model of requiring a PHB, DMG, and a Monster Manual. This doesn't seem like good business unless they're changing things up and combining at least the PHB and DMG into one book.

Ratty:
People tend to prefer the systems they start with.

I have never found that to be the case. I don't know why it's such a popular theory.

I started with 2nd Ed. I liked it well enough, but found certain aspects of modification frustrating.

I moved up to 3.0. Loved it. I initially scorned the 3.5 update as a money grab, but really liked the adjustments it made and moved on up. Played that until 4th, which I didn't like the feel of (although I did like certain mechanics from it) and I made the jump over to the Pathfinder Alpha playtest - then onto the Beta, and the full release. I've been with Pathfinder ever since and have no inclination to look back (or to 5th Ed).

Most of my gamer friends either started in 2nd Ed and moved up to 3rd/3.5/Pathfinder, or they started in 3.0/3.5, moved up to 4th Ed, and ALSO play Pathfinder (and Dark Heresy and other systems as well).

Interestingly, one of my 3rd Ed friends who prefers 4th ed prefers it because he's a power gamer and 4th ed's restrictions prevent him from effectively power gaming (and thus make the game more challenging for him).

My preference for 3/3.5/Pathfinder has always been due to customization. I like being able to mess with classes and systems and so forth, and those versions keeps things open and easy to modify. 2nd Ed and particularly 4th Ed actively work to prevent modification (the 4th Ed monsters are actually made the same way 3rd Ed ones are, but there is no guide to creating monsters - I only figured this out while attempting to back-convert some of the creatures). As someone who likes to create strange and unique characters and adapt my gaming experience to all sorts of different things, that makes 4th Ed (and 2nd Ed where I started) very off-putting.

So yeah, starting with a system rarely (in my experience) has anything to do with preference. Play style does, which I suppose could be influenced by system, but otherwise I don't see any connection between the two.

Anachronism:

thaluikhain:
As an aside, what's wrong with THAC0? Hear people complaining about it, but isn't it just what you need to roll To Hit Armour Class Zero, and if the armour class isn't zero, it changes what you need to roll?

Seems reasonable to me.

I'm inclined to agree. You get so many attack modifiers in the later editions that it becomes at least as much of a headache to keep track of them as THAC0 was. It's a bit of an odd system, but I never really understood why people dislike it so much.

Next got rid of a lot of the modifiers. Now instead of getting granted "+2 to hit" you get "advantage" which means you get to roll the d20 twice and take the larger of the two. Disadvantage works similarly but you get the lower of the two rolls. Its not as fine tuned of a system (multiple sources of advantage dont stack, for example) but its easy to use. They say here http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140210 that its one of the more successful new ideas of the playtest. There are still some modifiers, but they tend to be reserved for things that will last more than one turn, usually an entire encounter.

wombat_of_war:
bah all these people referring to it as 2ed! its AD&D you peasants !

No love for 1e? I remember when 2e was the over-simplified, kid-friendly version with too much PC customization fappery (I think 3e/PF/4e have forever redefined what counts as too much customization fappery, though).

Estranged180:
Between 1983 and 1985, I acquired the full set of AD&D 1Ed rulebooks (with the orange spines) ending the collection with Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures (all with that same orange spine). ... In 1989, the 2nd Ed rules were introduced, and examined thoroughly (by me), and there was one rule that had to be thrown out. The THAC0 rule.

What? How did you even roll to-hit? THAC0 was in the AD&D 1st edition DMG, and worked exactly the same then as it did in 2nd edition. All they changed for 2ed were some slight modifications to the level progression.

EDIT: 1ed AD&D did have that enormous table for people who couldn't do simple math. Was that it? Was that the difference that broke you? We never needed to use the table, since it was just adding the AC to the THAC0. Not rocket science.

thaluikhain:
As an aside, what's wrong with THAC0? Hear people complaining about it, but isn't it just what you need to roll To Hit Armour Class Zero, and if the armour class isn't zero, it changes what you need to roll?

Seems reasonable to me.

To new people its a bit unintuitive, nearly every other system has high armour/class being good. I was in for a shock when i started playing Baldurs gate after 4th edition. Dont get me wrong its not a bad system at all, its just confusing at first.

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