Majora's Mask Speed Runner Beats Game in an Hour and Half

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Apparently my first post was unclear. Allow me to explain:

When I said I was done discussing it, that didn't mean "I'll happily restart that multi-page argument with you here in this thread, because I love wasting my time repeating myself". It meant "if you try to argue with me about it again, I'll just ignore you and go about my business as if you never existed".

Have a splendid day! :)

Trotgar:
I didn't find the title too misleading myself, maybe it's a matter of definition. Some would probably think "beating" a game means you play through it the way the developers intended, while others might argue it just means getting to the finish line. I'd personally lean towards the latter definition, because I wouldn't know where to draw the line otherwise - you could beat the game "properly" and miss one heart container for example.

Not sure if that is what you meant though, but didn't the article you linked specifically say that the Cosmo's run wasn't a full completion and uses glitches?

(If the article's been modified later on, then never mind. Also, there are always people spreading misinformation either knowingly or not, I understand if you've gotten tired of discussing this topic).

As you can see here, even now, there's three more people trying to start it all over again. I've made my point of view clear on this subject, and we're never gonna agree, so there's no point in rehashing it all over again. >_>

It makes me respect speedrunning and its community less and less each time it happens, too. I didn't say that the speedrun is meaningless, I just said that I don't consider it "beating the game" in any traditional sense. Apparently, however, this is offensive to them in some way and they will shout down anyone who dares suggest as much....and I don't know why they find this opinion offensive, nor do I particularly care. I'm not obligated to accept their point of view any more than they have to accept mine. They have an ignore button if my opinion offends them so darn much, I just wish they'd use it and save us both the time.

But to explain: Yes, the article mentions (in one of the last paragraphs) that the run wasn't full completion and relied on glitches. The point of contention was that the article claimed he "beat the game", when "beating the game" by the standards used by a game's devs for almost any game on the market would generally mean "completed all primary story content without any form of cheating, glitching, or exploiting" (see: Titanfall's original excuse for not wanting to have a story mode at all). So it's traditionally accepted that "beating the game" is a term relegated more to a playthrough which completes all of the primary content. When I pointed this out, countless people took issue with it and argued with me for most of the thread's run length. I saw the same defenses and explanations rehashed enough times that I'm genuinely just sick of the discussion entirely, and don't really want to talk about it any more because it'll just lead to more of the exact same statements repeated ad infinitum. And repeating myself when I know my target audience didn't listen the first two or three times is a peeve of mine.

I only mentioned it in passing here (and already regret doing so) because that argument only got started in the first place because the writers at the Escapist used a definition of "beating the game" that is generally not shared by the core audience of gaming, or at the very least, is typically not a viewpoint that most blokes not directly invested into speedrunning would agree with. That doesn't mean their views are "wrong", they can have their own opinions too. They jut need to stop acting like theirs is the majority opinion (or like it's the common definition, when it's clearly not) simply because it's a majority here, in a relatively gaming-elitist forum community. >_>

He used for example a bomb to jump in the air repeatedly, a HESS (hyper extended superslide, let's you go real fast) and out of bounds -glitches. I'm pretty sure he missed some "essential" stuff in the game

That's a shame. Then it sorta falls into the same category as Cosmo's run for me at least. Maybe impressive in its own category, but not really a proper "beating" of the game. Though he does run more of the game's content than Cosmo, so that's still something.

but then again, he categorized his run "any%", so he or Cosmo aren't at least themselves claiming to beat the game fully.

Which is perhaps the most hilarious irony of all: they're not claiming to have "beat the game", but their defenders are all arguing that they did.

CriticKitten:
Apparently my first post was unclear. Allow me to explain:

When I said I was done discussing it, that didn't mean "I'll happily restart that multi-page argument with you here in this thread, because I love wasting my time repeating myself". It meant "if you try to argue with me about it again, I'll just ignore you and go about my business as if you never existed".

Have a splendid day! :)

I love how you say this, but then you go on to argue anyways. If you don't want to participate in the discussion, why not just, you know, not post? It's better then this smug passive-aggressive argument baiting.

CriticKitten:

That doesn't mean their views are "wrong", they can have their own opinions too. They jut need to stop acting like theirs is the majority opinion (or like it's the common definition, when it's clearly not) simply because it's a majority here, in a relatively gaming-elitist forum community. >_>

I dunno mate, if you ask people what "beating the game" is I'd imagine the most popular response would be either "beating the final boss" or "reaching the end credits". Either way it's irrelevant though, their runs are impressive because of the amount of planning, skill and practice it takes to execute. Not what arbitrary restraints on "beating the game" you might impose.

Phrozenflame500:
If you don't want to participate in the discussion, why not just, you know, not post?

Because I'm responding to another poster who is actually on topic, instead of trying to rehash the OoT argument in this thread (which is clearly off-topic).

It's not my fault if people refuse to read what I've posted and choose to try and start up the old argument again anyways.

I dunno mate, if you ask people what "beating the game" is I'd imagine the most popular response would be either "beating the final boss" or "reaching the end credits".

Incidentally, I did ask a number of people their opinions on the subject prior to making this post, and of the twenty plus, not a one disagreed with my assessment that a person who skips 90% of the content is not actually "beating" any of that content, so much as skipping over it. I plan to interview my students later today as many of them are casual gamers of varying degrees, just to prove my point further, but I expect similarly lopsided results from them. The category "Any%" exists for a reason in the community, and it's not because speedrunners want their "Any%" runs held up as equal to regular runs.

their runs are impressive because of the amount of planning, skill and practice it takes to execute. Not what arbitrary restraints on "beating the game" you might impose.

All of this has already been refuted in the past at least three times. Go read my previous posts on the subject if you want to know my opinion so badly. I'm not going to humor your attempt to bait me out to argue again.

CriticKitten:

Incidentally, I did ask a number of people their opinions on the subject prior to making this post, and of the twenty plus, not a one disagreed with my assessment that a person who skips 90% of the content is not actually "beating" any of that content, so much as skipping over it. I plan to interview my students later today as many of them are casual gamers of varying degrees, just to prove my point further, but I expect similarly lopsided results from them.

Anecdotal. I don't know how you ask the question nor who you asked nor if you actually did even ask.

CriticKitten:

The category "Any%" exists for a reason in the community, and it's not because speedrunners want their "Any%" runs held up as equal to regular runs.

Any% runs *are* regular runs. Any% doesn't imply using glitches or exploits, it just allows them.

And the reason different categories exist is so that all runs are equally valid in their respective category and dumb subjective arguments about "beating the game" don't happen.

CriticKitten:

I'm not going to humor your attempt to bait me out to argue again.

And yet you keep responding.

Also, don't pretend other people dragged you into this argument again. You were the one who brought it up again to begin with, before that nobody cared.

CriticKitten:
Snip

I feel strongly that this post is projecting personal opinions on the greater gaming community, as well as the speed running community.

Also, if that's the case, then I shudder at hearing that you have students. Teachers are supposed to teach facts, not opinions.

When did speedruns become news? AGDQ starting up again, puts out an official date? Sure. Guy beats game? Nah...

CriticKitten:
*snip*

The only thing we're saying is that your definition of 'beat' isn't so universal that it makes the title of either thread factually incorrect. The only official definition I can find of the word 'beat' that is in any way relevant to this topic is "To defeat or subdue, as in a contest". That... doesn't really imply anything to do with percentage completion or whatever.

But yeah, sure, you win by being above the argument.

Phrozenflame500:
Anecdotal. I don't know how you ask the question nor who you asked nor if you actually did even ask.

Yes, it's anecdotal, just as much so as your "evidence" to the contrary. It's your opinion against mine, and no one "wins" an argument of opinions.

But you keep on trying to, anyways.

Any% runs *are* regular runs.

Incorrect. They are runs of the game under special sets of rules which permit the user to use glitches and exploits to skip large portions of content in order to achieve the fastest time. That is *not* a regular run of the game, which is precisely why it's relegated to its own category and style of play, and why no speedrunner worth their salt attempts to compare their speedrun to a regular run: because they're not the same thing. They're obviously different runs with obviously different intentions behind them.

And the reason different categories exist is so that all runs are equally valid in their respective category and dumb subjective arguments about "beating the game" don't happen.

So you mean....exactly what I said before, about how it makes no sense to consider an "Any%" run in any sort of comparison with a regular run? Good, I'm glad we both agree that the game run in question is valid in its own category.

I'm also glad we both agree that this argument is dumb, so my immediate question then becomes: why do you keep trying to have it?

And yet you keep responding.

So do you, so I'm not sure what this is meant to "prove" exactly, because any argument you might project onto me is just as easily reversed when you consider that you, too, are still responding even after admitting that you find the argument "dumb" and pointless. :)

But rest assured that unlike yourself, I won't make that mistake again. Feel free to reply, I'll be out enjoying my weekend with my mates. Have a good day!

CriticKitten:
Yes, it's anecdotal, just as much so as your "evidence" to the contrary. It's your opinion against mine, and no one "wins" an argument of opinions.

It is a dumb argument. Honestly I'm just replying because I find it hilarious how much you're trying to pretend you don't care while so blatantly caring.

CriticKitten:

Incorrect. They are runs of the game under special sets of rules which permit the user to use glitches and exploits to skip large portions of content in order to achieve the fastest time. That is *not* a regular run of the game, which is precisely why it's relegated to its own category and style of play.

I'm afraid you're incorrect. Any% is the most commonly run category in any given game precisely because it's rule-less. Get to the end of the game as fast as possible, that's the only condition. All other categories are variations on Any% as it existed before the category system was even put into place. Thus it is the "regular" run by any reasonable definition of the term.

CriticKitten:
So you mean....exactly what I said before, about how it makes no sense to consider an "Any%" run in any sort of comparison with a regular run? Good, I'm glad we both agree that the game run in question is valid in its own category.

See above, Any% is a regular run. My point was that the speedrunning community recognized the pointlessness of the "is this beating the game" and actively avoided it.

CriticKitten:

I'm also glad we both agree that this argument is dumb, so my immediate question then becomes: why do you keep trying to have it?

You're the one who started it with:

No, he didn't, but I'm not starting that argument AGAIN. It's your site's fault that argument even got started in the first place, because your writers can't tell the difference between a full run of a game and a heavily-glitched-through speedrun of 5-10% of the game. But rather than restart that, here, AGAIN, I'm just going to tell you to stop mislabeling his achievement as a full game completion when it's obviously NOT one. Most of us, at least, could agree on the grossly misleading title of the last article. Hopefully this one isn't similarly as inaccurate for click-bait's sake.

If you didn't want to have the argument, don't hit-and-run smugpost about how much you're right but since you're such a mature person you won't bother debating how wrong we are.

CriticKitten:

So do you, so I'm not sure what this is meant to "prove" exactly, because any argument you might project onto me is just as easily reversed when you consider that you, too, are still responding even after admitting that you find the argument "dumb" and pointless. :)

But rest assured that unlike yourself, I won't make that mistake again. Have a good day!

I'm not the one who keeps putting "but I won't bother responding again" at the bottom of every one of my posts and then promptly responding again.

EDIT: Haha, he keeps editing the last line to emphasize how "above the argument" he is.

CriticKitten:
When I said I was done discussing it, that didn't mean "I'll happily restart that multi-page argument with you here in this thread, because I love wasting my time repeating myself". It meant "if you try to argue with me about it again, I'll just ignore you and go about my business as if you never existed".

I think it looks more like a case of "I'll just ignore counterpoints I can't refute".

CriticKitten:
It makes me respect speedrunning and its community less and less each time it happens, too. I didn't say that the speedrun is meaningless, I just said that I don't consider it "beating the game" in any traditional sense. Apparently, however, this is offensive to them in some way and they will shout down anyone who dares suggest as much....and I don't know why they find this opinion offensive, nor do I particularly care. I'm not obligated to accept their point of view any more than they have to accept mine.

Maybe people would be more accepting of your opinions if you weren't so passive-aggressive and condescending when giving them?

CriticKitten:
I saw the same defenses and explanations rehashed enough times that I'm genuinely just sick of the discussion entirely, and don't really want to talk about it any more because it'll just lead to more of the exact same statements repeated ad infinitum.

Then why did you bring it up again in THIS thread?
That doesn't seem like something someone would do if they're "sick of the discussion".

CriticKitten:
the Escapist used a definition of "beating the game" that is generally not shared by the core audience of gaming, or at the very least, is typically not a viewpoint that most blokes not directly invested into speedrunning would agree with.

[Citation Needed]

CriticKitten:
Snip

First of all, sorry for the late response.

I was never there for the original argument, so I didn't know your stance on the matter accurately, I mostly wanted to know if you had a different definition to beating a game (apparently you do) than some people (especially the speedrunning community), and I understand your point of view.

Also I never wanted to and don't believe I did start any arguments. I believe the word "beating" has no universal, objective meaning in this case, meaning no-one is really wrong or right here. I personally just lean towards another definition than you do.

In the end, I think we can agree this isn't really a matter of too much importance: even if some people were mislead into thinking Cosmo beat Ocarina of Time "properly" in under 19 minutes (which I think is unlikely, though if someone is not familiar with the game they might believe it more easily), I don't see it causing any harm.

BTW, I'd be interested in knowing what you think of the so-called 100%-speedruns. For example Siglemic often does 120 star runs in Super Mario 64, and while he may use some glitches/exploits to reach places faster (I'm not really sure as to what extent he might use them, at least he can't skip any levels or stars), it's mostly him just performing sick platforming.

Sorry if my post sprawls a bit; I'm quite tired at the moment.

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