NASA Suspends Contact with Russia, Except for the ISS

NASA Suspends Contact with Russia, Except for the ISS

ISS

In light of Russia's recent actions towards Ukraine, NASA has decided to suspend all contact with the country's space program, except for the required cooperation involving the International Space Station.

Political tension between Russia and the U.S. has resulted in NASA taking measures to limit its contact with Russia's space agency, Roscosmos. Cooperation on the International Space Station, currently staffed by two American, three Russian, and one Japanese astronaut, is presently the only exception. Without the crew cooperating, the entire station would shut down, said NASA administrator Charles Bolden.

News that initially broke as a leaked internal memo has been confirmed on NASA's official Google+ page. "Given Russia's ongoing violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, NASA is suspending the majority of its ongoing engagements with the Russian Federation," the statement reads. "NASA and Roscosmos will, however, continue to work together to maintain safe and continuous operation of the International Space Station."

The verbiage of the leaked memo, as reported by The Verge, differs slightly from the official statement, as can be seen in this excerpt: "Until further notice, the U.S. Government has determined that all NASA contacts with Russian Government representatives are suspended, unless the activity has been specifically excepted. [...] At the present time, only operational International Space Station activities have been excepted."

NASA shut down its shuttle program in 2011, and since then, has relied on Russia to transport its crew to the ISS at a cost of $70.7 million per astronaut. However, NASA is hoping to put an end to this by 2017. NASA's statement reads:

"NASA is laser focused on a plan to return human spaceflight launches to American soil, and end our reliance on Russia to get into space. This has been a top priority of the Obama Administration's for the past five years, and had our plan been fully funded, we would have returned American human spaceflight launches - and the jobs they support - back to the United States next year. With the reduced level of funding approved by Congress, we're now looking at launching from U.S. soil in 2017. The choice here is between fully funding the plan to bring space launches back to America or continuing to send millions of dollars to the Russians. It's that simple. The Obama Administration chooses to invest in America - and we are hopeful that Congress will do the same."

Source: Gigaom

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I really wish there was a way we could just separate science and politics, so political scuffles like this don't result in scientists having to pick sides.

And this is why we shouldn't have decomissioned all of our rockets and shuttles and cut nasa's funding to what is probably just enough to keep the lights on. Because if Russia says go fuck yourselves guess what, we have to recourse and our astronauts are at their mercy.

I'm not saying their going to keep them hostage but it would be nice to know that there's more than one country in the world that has a functioning space program.

Bush brought us the War Against Terror, and now Obama has brought us the 2nd Cold War. Woo-hoo!

So what happens now if Russia decides to meet the NASA's lack of cooperation in everything other than the ISS by refusing to cooperate on the ISS? I'm not saying they would -- it would just aggravate a politically charged issue -- but more shortsighted things have happened. The decision to suspend cooperation seems pretty darn shortsighted anyway, if you ask me.

The_Great_Galendo:
So what happens now if Russia decides to meet the NASA's lack of cooperation in everything other than the ISS by refusing to cooperate on the ISS? I'm not saying they would -- it would just aggravate a politically charged issue -- but more shortsighted things have happened. The decision to suspend cooperation seems pretty darn shortsighted anyway, if you ask me.

russia wins that round?

seriously what can the US do.

Gods, I hate politics.

RJ 17:
Bush brought us the War Against Terror, and now Obama has brought us the 2nd Cold War. Woo-hoo!

I wouldn't say it's a Cold War yet, seeing as this is barely only 2 months old. When proxy wars between the two start in other countries besides the Middle East, then yes it is Cold War number 2.

OT: Once again science and progress suffers because of idiots in political power trying to show just how tough they are.

All these sanctions seem to be a case of 'cutting off your nose to spite your own face'. It's all going to affect the US more than Russia in the long run. As history has shown time and time again, the only people who can defeat Russia are the Russians. Putin will ruin Russia himself, not the US.

The biggest issue is if the West's sanctions force Russia to make stronger ties with China. Asia is the future, despite what some may believe (I'm looking at you John 'crazy' McCain) and If BRICS can get their act together, they will become pretty badass.

Anyway, as some have said before, it's stupid that NASA are doing this, but clearly this order has come down from government level and not from NASA themselves.

Li Mu:
All these sanctions seem to be a case of 'cutting off your nose to spite your own face'. It's all going to affect the US more than Russia in the long run. As history has shown time and time again, the only people who can defeat Russia are the Russians. Putin will ruin Russia himself, not the US.

The biggest issue is if the West's sanctions force Russia to make stronger ties with China. Asia is the future, despite what some may believe (I'm looking at you John 'crazy' McCain) and If BRICS can get their act together, they will become pretty badass.

Anyway, as some have said before, it's stupid that NASA are doing this, but clearly this order has come down from government level and not from NASA themselves.

How would it affect the USA more when it's Russia that's dependant on the west for its very survival economically speaking?

Halyah:
How would it affect the USA more when it's Russia that's dependant on the west for its very survival economically speaking?

If Russia can broker the fuel deal with China, it pretty much wont need the west. It's trading heavily with BRICS nations and has just struck a nice big deal with Iran. Basically, Russia is becoming as unreliant on the west as possible.
Russia doesn't make anything, so it's not like it has exports. It just has fossil fuels.

Of course, when all their gas runs out, they're fucked.

The Russian economy was on a serious downward drop before the whole crisis, but somehow it's begun to rise again despite the sanctions. Russia has an economic crash every few decades, so sanctions wont make much difference. For a country which has vast land, resources and people, they sure as hell manage to CAN I HAS BREAK ECONOMY on a regular basis.

Basically, the sanctions will do nothing to Russia. As I said before, only Russians can pwn Russians (and they manage well)

Without getting into a horribly tedious political debate, I just wonder why sanctions were never placed on the US or UK after their illegal invasion of the middle east.
And before people start ranting about how it was totally legal and kewl;

OLD NEWS, but it appear not to have reached many people...

The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.
Mr Annan said that the invasion was not sanctioned by the UN security council or in accordance with the UN's founding charter. In an interview with the BBC World Service broadcast last night, he was asked outright if the war was illegal. He replied: "Yes, if you wish."

He then added unequivocally: "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and from the charter point of view it was illegal."

So why is illegal war by US good and illegal war by Russia bad? Hypocrisy anyone?

Li Mu:
So why is illegal war by US good and illegal war by Russia bad? Hypocrisy anyone?

Well, yes and no. We ALLEGEDLY went into the Middle East to show everyone FREEDOM and stuff and also because we got our twin towers smashed. Russia's just rolling into the Ukraine so they can resubjugate as much people as possible.

Li Mu:

Halyah:
How would it affect the USA more when it's Russia that's dependant on the west for its very survival economically speaking?

If Russia can broker the fuel deal with China, it pretty much wont need the west.

Russia already has a contract with China for gas supplies. China is the second largest purchaser of Russian gas and oil compared to the EU. Cut the EU off and Russia goes broke because China is already importing what it needs from Russia. Also to broker a deal with china in the event that the EU cuts off purchasing Russian gas China will broker a deal to purchase at prices far lower than what Russia can afford. China is not stupid when it comes to making trade agreements and a desperate trader is what China will take advantage of.

You also need to look at the politics between the 2 countries. neither one of them like each other but they will cooperate, China though will and has flipped the bird at Russia when it is to China's advantage. China is not or will ever be a salvation for Russia.

Economic sanctions against Russia will cripple the economy of Russia, as of now the sanctions are against individuals in Putin's inner circle and not the country itself. If real sanctions are in place it will be against the tiny amount of exports they have and that will be the crippling factor. almost no exports, makes for no jobs for the Russian people. no jobs means they cannot buy anything. nobody buying anything and economy dies.

Stop reading the propaganda.

Arnoxthe1:

Li Mu:
So why is illegal war by US good and illegal war by Russia bad? Hypocrisy anyone?

Well, yes and no. We ALLEGEDLY went into the Middle East to show everyone FREEDOM and stuff and also because we got our twin towers smashed. Russia's just rolling into the Ukraine so they can resubjugate as much people as possible.

I'd say that most Ukrainians in Crimea do indeed want to be a part of Russia. If you watch any independent reports it does appear that they really are happy to be a part of Russia. Lets face it, being with Russia is probably better than being with Ukraine right now. All the Ukrainians I know (and I know several) are Russo-files and prefer closer ties to Russia than Europe. But then, my friends and colleagues are all from the East, which is an ethnically Russian area.

I'd say that Putin isn't even that interested in subjugating anyone. He just wants to secure the Black Sea Fleet and ensure that he has a naval foothold in the area. The idea that the area might end up in the hands of a US friendly Ukraine (and therefore potentially being a home to a US naval detachment) was just too much of a threat to ignore.

I just really wish Russia would pull back it's troops from the border of Ukraine. I always thought that Putin was too intelligent to go into Ukraine proper, but all this waving of military penises is getting me a little concerned.

JET1971:

Russia already has a contract with China for gas supplies.

Gonna have to disagree with you there...

The Holy Grail for Moscow is a natural gas supply deal with China that is apparently now close after years of negotiations. If it can be signed when Putin visits China in May, he will be able to hold it up to show that global power has shifted eastwards and he does not need the West.

"The worse Russia's relations are with the West, the closer Russia will want to be to China. If China supports you, no one can say you're isolated," said Vasily Kashin, a China expert at the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) think thank.

A strong alliance would suit both countries as a counterbalance to the United States.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/21/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-insight-idUSBREA2K07S20140321

As for me reading 'propaganda', I didn't realise that Reuters was a propaganda agency. I have a difference of opinion to you which I think is equally as valid as yours. Lets try and keep this friendly and not resort to any name calling or insulting each other's ability to spot the difference between a relatively unbiased report and something from Fox News or RT.

Li Mu:
So why is illegal war by US good and illegal war by Russia bad? Hypocrisy anyone?

Well, to be fair the justifications this time are completely different. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars were primarily for hunting down those responsible for 9/11. The Crimea situation is just Putin making a land grab.

Though given how fast Crimea was to switch sides, i wonder if the whole thing wasnt set up by Russia to begin with.

Hawk eye1466:
And this is why we shouldn't have decomissioned all of our rockets and shuttles and cut nasa's funding to what is probably just enough to keep the lights on.

They had to be decommissioned. They were being used well past their original used by date.

gigastar:

Li Mu:
So why is illegal war by US good and illegal war by Russia bad? Hypocrisy anyone?

Well, to be fair the justifications this time are completely different. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars were primarily for hunting down those responsible for 9/11. The Crimea situation is just Putin making a land grab.

Though given how fast Crimea was to switch sides, i wonder if the whole thing wasnt set up by Russia to begin with.

Russia stepped in to protect the Russian-speakers from the Western Ukrainian lynchers (yep, Ukrainian freedom fighters planned to start hanging Russians after Crimea is pacified). How is it 'just Putin making a land grab'?

Okay, wait... so basically NASA just quit their job without having another one lined up? Under this analogy, they don't even have any savings to fall back on until they get a new job.

What would America do if Russia flipped us the bird and didn't let us go to ISS anymore? Nothing. We can't do jack shit. What are we going to do, turn to the Constellation Program? No, it was cancelled to make way for private companies. How's that going, anyway? Oh right, the 2017 deadline.

Well, best of luck to them. I wonder what we're going to do for the next three years whenever a satellite needs minor repairs...

Li Mu:

Halyah:
How would it affect the USA more when it's Russia that's dependant on the west for its very survival economically speaking?

If Russia can broker the fuel deal with China, it pretty much wont need the west. It's trading heavily with BRICS nations and has just struck a nice big deal with Iran. Basically, Russia is becoming as unreliant on the west as possible.
Russia doesn't make anything, so it's not like it has exports. It just has fossil fuels.

Of course, when all their gas runs out, they're fucked.

The Russian economy was on a serious downward drop before the whole crisis, but somehow it's begun to rise again despite the sanctions. Russia has an economic crash every few decades, so sanctions wont make much difference. For a country which has vast land, resources and people, they sure as hell manage to CAN I HAS BREAK ECONOMY on a regular basis.

Basically, the sanctions will do nothing to Russia. As I said before, only Russians can pwn Russians (and they manage well)

Without getting into a horribly tedious political debate, I just wonder why sanctions were never placed on the US or UK after their illegal invasion of the middle east.
And before people start ranting about how it was totally legal and kewl;

Can any of those, combined or otherwise, reach the levels of trade that they have with the west though? Or for equal or better price?

"This has been a top priority for the Obama Administration." A priority it wouldn't have if it hadn't canceled our space program in the first place.

Oh, great, that stupid dick measuring contest that some like to call "international geopolitics" is, again, standing between all of humanity and progress....

Thanks Obama...and Putin!!!!

Li Mu:

Without getting into a horribly tedious political debate, I just wonder why sanctions were never placed on the US or UK after their illegal invasion of the middle east.

Because when you're economically dominant it's hard for people to put sanctions on you?

I honestly don't know, that just seems like a logical answer.

Scorpid:
I really wish there was a way we could just separate science and politics, so political scuffles like this don't result in scientists having to pick sides.

The implication being that Scientists don't have political views. I think many of them probably do... I'm not saying that's a good thing by the way.

The lack of funding for Space projects is something that really, really pisses me off. Unfortunately it'll probably just continue for the next 4 and a bit billion years until the Sun gets close to it's inevitable destruction and we really, REALLY need to get off the planet.*

An example is Indias recent space launch - I saw a large backlash against them because of the high levels of poverty still in their country (peoples argument being that solving poverty on earth is more important than some silly space project... Those people being overly-emotional fools, in my not-so-humble-and-slightly-superior-and-a-little-bit-smug opinion).

*I know how ridiculous that statement is - Humanity is never going to make it that far.

Poor NASA. They used to do important things. Now their festering corpse is used as a puppet for political dick waving and for vending the US's frustration because they are not in complete control of everything that happens everywhere in the world ever. In the meantime, Jill Tarter retires because she is having a hard time coming up with 2M $ a year to keep SETI running. 2M a year. Pathetic.

008Zulu:

Hawk eye1466:
And this is why we shouldn't have decomissioned all of our rockets and shuttles and cut nasa's funding to what is probably just enough to keep the lights on.

They had to be decommissioned. They were being used well past their original used by date.

True but the shuttles were really not a great idea in the first place, I just think we'd have been better off keeping the rockets and exploring rather than doing whatever we're doing now.

Arnoxthe1:

Well, yes and no. We ALLEGEDLY went into the Middle East to show everyone FREEDOM and stuff and also because we got our twin towers smashed.

Arnoxthe1:
Russia's just rolling into the Ukraine so they can resubjugate as much people as possible.

Rolling into Crimea. Which was part of Russia just 60 years ago, and more than half of population considers themeselves russians. Well, now its more like 95% of population... Also, it wasn't exactly a war, since most of Ukranian soldiers stationed in Crimia just disarmed themeselves, and switched sides, because they don't want anything to do with new Ukranian government. I believe there was exactly one casualty in all this terrible "war".

I am sure it wasn't NASA's initiative, those people are sensible, unlike US government.

NASA decides to reenact the events in the 1984 film 2010 in the hopes that it will somehow spur a manned flight to Jupiter so we can finally find that damned Monolith.

In other video game news:

Labour pledges to repeal Lobbying Act in transparency drive

Turkey lifts Twitter ban after court ruling

Report finds gunfight to apprehend Boston bombers endangered public

Greek prime minister facing resignation calls after aide's Golden Dawn gaffe

VIDEO GAMES.

Well, now its more like 95% of population...

Only that many? Here's how Moscow does it elsewhere (not very far):

http://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Regions-and-countries/Chechnya/Russian-elections-and-the-wonders-of-Chechen-arithmetic-112474

Russian democracy.

Bush brought us the War Against Terror, and now Obama has brought us the 2nd Cold War. Woo-hoo!

No, those idiots brought you 'reset'. Worked wonders with Russian mafia leaders, supposedly.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/372332/obama-flashback-reset-button-has-worked-jonah-goldberg

Li Mu:
If you watch any independent reports it does appear that they really are happy to be a part of Russia.

http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2014/03/31/feature-04

http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/31/crimean-minority-tatar-leader-warns-of-possible-bloodshed/

Totally.

Li Mu:

Arnoxthe1:

Li Mu:
So why is illegal war by US good and illegal war by Russia bad? Hypocrisy anyone?

Well, yes and no. We ALLEGEDLY went into the Middle East to show everyone FREEDOM and stuff and also because we got our twin towers smashed. Russia's just rolling into the Ukraine so they can resubjugate as much people as possible.

I'd say that most Ukrainians in Crimea do indeed want to be a part of Russia. If you watch any independent reports it does appear that they really are happy to be a part of Russia. Lets face it, being with Russia is probably better than being with Ukraine right now. All the Ukrainians I know (and I know several) are Russo-files and prefer closer ties to Russia than Europe. But then, my friends and colleagues are all from the East, which is an ethnically Russian area.

I'd say that Putin isn't even that interested in subjugating anyone. He just wants to secure the Black Sea Fleet and ensure that he has a naval foothold in the area. The idea that the area might end up in the hands of a US friendly Ukraine (and therefore potentially being a home to a US naval detachment) was just too much of a threat to ignore.

I just really wish Russia would pull back it's troops from the border of Ukraine. I always thought that Putin was too intelligent to go into Ukraine proper, but all this waving of military penises is getting me a little concerned.

To be fair that's all true, but the other side is that the reason Crimea is an ethnically Russian region today is that the communists killed all the Ukrainians living there back in their day, which is a big part of the reason that the rest of the Ukraine hates Russia so much.

Really the whole thing is a mess that the United States has no right to meddle with, and nothing to gain from doing so. The only rational thing to do is stay as far away as humanly possible. Unfortunately the US seems to have decided that what the world really needs is us barging in and telling people how things ought to be when we only have the vaguest idea what's actually going on.

ZephrC:

To be fair that's all true, but the other side is that the reason Crimea is an ethnically Russian region today is that the communists killed all the Ukrainians living there back in their day, which is a big part of the reason that the rest of the Ukraine hates Russia so much.

Really the whole thing is a mess that the United States has no right to meddle with, and nothing to gain from doing so. The only rational thing to do is stay as far away as humanly possible. Unfortunately the US seems to have decided that what the world really needs is us barging in and telling people how things ought to be when we only have the vaguest idea what's actually going on.

Moscow killed or deported all the indigineous Crimean Tatars in 1944, and then settled ethnic Russians in their emptied homes. Which is (to paraphrase video game 'problems') #1reasonwhy
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/tartar-ukraine-sunni-muslims-threat-russian-rule-crimea an even http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/17bd814e-a7ab-11e3-9c7d-00144feab7de.html (so happy they are indeed).

And as I happen to live as near "as humanly possible" (and have a pretty good "idea what's actually going on", too) I'd prefer America to abandon and/or betray us again. We've lost quite a lot soldiers fighting for America in the al-Qaeda wars of Iraqistan, and so did the Georgians for the matter, even after Obama betrayed them with the 'reset' bullshit. That's me, speaking fom 'the world' over here.

Hawkeye21:

Rolling into Crimea. Which was part of Russia just 60 years ago, and more than half of population considers themeselves russians. Well, now its more like 95% of population... Also, it wasn't exactly a war, since most of Ukranian soldiers stationed in Crimia just disarmed themeselves, and switched sides, because they don't want anything to do with new Ukranian government. I believe there was exactly one casualty in all this terrible "war".

I am sure it wasn't NASA's initiative, those people are sensible, unlike US government.

One, it wasn't "part of Russia just 60 years ago". It was a part if the Soviet Union. There was no Russia until just 23 years ago.

Two, it's funny you think the conflict's already over as Russia might still be preparing for a 'real' in invasion. More of the style of what they did in and to Chechnya.

Three, there were more than "exactly one casualty" even if you count just the fatalities.

And the situation in Crimea right now:

http://ndtv.com/article/world/fear-and-uncertainty-for-crimean-tatars-under-vladimir-putin-504294

The Tatars' spiritual leader Mustafa Dzhemilev, who is a Ukrainian lawmaker, told a session of the UN Security Council this week his people were extremely worried about their future and even their lives.

"The possibility is rather high of bloody inter-ethnic conflicts, or to be more precise of the slaughter of Crimea's Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians which may unfold in Crimea in the coming days," he said.

But maybe they're just not "sensible", too.

Also, lol at "just disarmed themselves". Yeah, half of them put on umarked Russian uniforms, armed (disarmed?) themselves with Russian weapons, driving unmarked Russian combat vehicles and telling reporters they came from Russia, and then besieged and took over the bases of the other half that didn't. That's exactly what happened.

Sonichu:
snip

1) Russia was one of the republics withing USSR, Crimea was a region inside that republic until 1954, when Kruschev passed the control of Crimea to Ukranian republic for purely administrative reasons. Learn to history before talking smack.
2) Chechnya is one of the richest republics which has a broadest autonomy right now. Brush up on the current state of affairs as well. "mights still be prapairing"? What kind of an argument is that?
3) And where are the evidence of that?
4) Russia is multinational country. There is less racism in Russia than in France, for example. There are no evidence to suggest that crimean tatars are going to be treated any different than they were 60 years ago, when Crimea was still a region of Russia.
5) Yes, thats pretty much what happened.

New Ukranian government, meanwhile, consists of people that say stuff like "we are going to kill those fucking Moscowites with nuclear weapons".

Hawkeye21:

Sonichu:
snip

1) Russia was one of the republics withing USSR, Crimea was a region inside that republic until 1954, when Kruschev passed the control of Crimea to Ukranian republic for purely administrative reasons. Learn to history before talking smack.
2) Chechnya is one of the richest republics which has a broadest autonomy right now. Brush up on the current state of affairs as well. "mights still be prapairing"? What kind of an argument is that?
3) And where are the evidence of that?
4) Russia is multinational country. There is less racism in Russia than in France, for example. There are no evidence to suggest that crimean tatars are going to be treated any different than they were 60 years ago, when Crimea was still a region of Russia.
5) Yes, thats pretty much what happened.

New Ukranian government, meanwhile, consists of people that say stuff like "we are going to kill those fucking Moscowites with nuclear weapons".

There was no Russia until Russia's declaration of sovereignity in 1990. There was only the Soviet Union. For a while, the Independence Day was even a national holiday. http://rbth.com/society/2013/06/11/russia_day_from_independence_to_summer_holiday_26991.html Independence came only in 1991.

I didn't know French soldiers and policemen are murdering, raping, and torturing members of ethnic minorities in concentration camps and massacres more than Putin's goons do. Sometimes before hurling their victims into mass graves, or destroying the bodies to leave no trace (thousands just 'disappeared'). Like that:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/russia_chechnya/index.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/russia_chechnya2/

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/russia_chechnya3/

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/russia_chechnya4/

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/chechnya/index.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/05/01/burying-evidence-botched-investigation-mass-grave-chechnya

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/russchech/

http://www.hrw.org/news/2005/03/20/chechnya-disappearances-crime-against-humanity

And so on. The richest republic, being enriched. I think I wouldn't like to be rich in Russia. Thousands of refugees somehow chose to be poor (but alive) in my country.



Speaking of refugees, thousands of Tatars already fled the ocvupied Crimea. And the ethnic violence (speaking of multiple fatalities), things like that - Chechnya-style, by the same forces led by the same officers and acting on the orders from the same 'National Leader': http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/18/crimea-disappeared-man-found-killed

Sonichu:
Moscow killed or deported all the indigineous Crimean Tatars in 1944, and then settled ethnic Russians in their emptied homes. Which is (to paraphrase video game 'problems') #1reasonwhy
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/tartar-ukraine-sunni-muslims-threat-russian-rule-crimea an even http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/17bd814e-a7ab-11e3-9c7d-00144feab7de.html (so happy they are indeed).

And as I happen to live as near "as humanly possible" (and have a pretty good "idea what's actually going on", too) I'd prefer America to abandon and/or betray us again. We've lost quite a lot soldiers fighting for America in the al-Qaeda wars of Iraqistan, and so did the Georgians for the matter, even after Obama betrayed them with the 'reset' bullshit. That's me, speaking fom 'the world' over here.

I... I'm not actually sure if you're angry at me or agreeing with me from that post. Probably the former, maybe even both.

I just... clearly don't know enough about what's going on to make any kind of rational decision, and I know more than most Americans, including a lot of the ones that are making the decisions about what we're going to do. The whole thing makes me feel stupid and helpless. I tend to shut down and do nothing when I feel like that, whereas the types that tend to end up in charge usually lash out at anyone they can get away with hurting and then ignore things after that. They're both dumb and useless ways of dealing with things, but at least mine isn't making things worse.

I don't know. I just... don't know.

 

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