David Goyer Says Warner Bros Has No Plans For Cohesive DC Universe

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David Goyer Says Warner Bros Has No Plans For Cohesive DC Universe

Batman vs Superman Logo

Goyer: "You have to admire what Marvel's done."

So, while Marvel has their movies planned out until 2028, Captain America has been breaking box office records. It's a rough time for DC Comics, which has had a spotted track record as far as superhero movies go. David Goyer, the writer behind Nolan's Batman series and Man of Steel, recently sat down with IGN to talk about the state of DC superhero movies, where he states that Warner Brothers doesn't have any plans to tie their heroes together into a coherent universe, as much as he'd love to.

When asked if there's pressure from above to imitate Marvel's Cinematic Universe, he says "I mean, yes and no. Look, we've been pretty lucky with the films we've done so far. I think right now it's just kind of, 'More of the same, please.'"

"You have to admire what Marvel's done," he continues. "It's really hard to create a brand, I mean, where people will follow your brand. Pixar's done it, and now Marvel has done it. It's really, really hard to do, because there's not a lot of brand loyalty anymore."

Goyer's solution to "more of the same" is to branch off with Neil Gaiman's Sandman, which he's currently working on adapting. Still, as Marvel continues to tie its characters together across multiple movies (and genres), it should be interesting to see if the one-shot superhero movies of old can still stand up.

Source: IGN

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Weren't they making a Superman vs. Batman movie with Wonder Woman in it?

I certainly wouldn't want to see this with Goyer at the helm. He made a mess of Blade 2, he made a mess of The Dark Knight Rises, and he made a mess of Man of Steel.

P.S. Thanks

Johnny Novgorod:
Weren't they making a Superman vs. Batman movie with Wonder Woman in it?

If nothing else we'll at least have their TV universe with Arrow, Flash, and Amazon.

KazeAizen:

Johnny Novgorod:
Weren't they making a Superman vs. Batman movie with Wonder Woman in it?

If nothing else we'll at least have their TV universe with Arrow, Flash, and Amazon.

Amazon was cancelled long time ago.

Maybe they realized there's no way they can compete with Marvel because DC was so far behind in the movie department.

I'm sorry to say it, but it's Goyer the one holding back DC. I'm sure there's plenty of other talented writers who get Superman, who also get Batman, and are just dying for a turn at the bat. Surely somebody at Warner Bros. is leading this battle. Certainly someone from within DC Comics.

Mostly because that would involve having a plan, period.

Johnny Novgorod:
Weren't they making a Superman vs. Batman movie with Wonder Woman in it?

And cameos from half the DCU. And they're doing a spinoff from Arrow into a Flash show (and rumours he may cameo, I guess).

Then again, they said cohesive. Man of Steel wasn't even a cohesive movie, so I don't know how they'd expect a universe to work.

Covarr:
I certainly wouldn't want to see this with Goyer at the helm. He made a mess of Blade 2, he made a mess of The Dark Knight Rises, and he made a mess of Man of Steel.

P.S. Thanks

It's his super power.

Truth be told they don't have to link all their movies/stories. It's just by doing so Marvel can tempt and tease about other stories and reference various events. Rather than a stand alone movie it all feels like a TV series. When one watches it in order they're given a sense of understanding what's happening in the world. Building a world like that is alot more work to be sure. Let's take Man of Steel. The city got leveled/trashed. In the Batman/Superman movie people predicted Mr Wayne shows up to help fund it's reconstruction (I think someone said Lex first, but that's doubtful now) Giving each hero their own little world isn't bad by any means either. It can help the writers focus on the character rather than how said character impacts the developed world. In the end I really don't care as long as they have a good story for either scenario.

At this point you just gotta feel sort of bad for DC. In terms of competing fandoms, its been a while since we've had something that at one point was pretty even become so lopsided as Marvel vs DC has at the movie level.

Wow. When WB own them, I thought they'd be combing the DC back catalogue to make it worse.
that said, I'm not disappointed, in recent memory the only DC film I've enjoyed is the second in the Nolan trilogy

"...It's really, really hard to do, because there's not a lot of brand loyalty anymore."

Yeah, cause when I think about comic fandom, the last thing I think of is fierce loyalty to the point of obsession.

Seriously, this guy seems to have no idea about the medium he paints in.

The DC Cinematic Universe is only as limited as people like David Goyer makes it. As for brand loyalty, the Pixar Universe started from scratch. Nobody knew a thing about Toy Story, Cars etc until Pixar took those chances. Even within the Marvel universe, Iron Man and Thor were pretty low-key compared to Spider-Man or The X-Men. If DC has one advantage over Warner Bros, it's brand recognition. WB just doesn't know how to sell super heroes and seems to be too afraid to give anyone a chance to TAKE that chance. For Superman 2, they're using Batman to try selling him when HE'S FREAKING SUPERMAN!

Well...based on Man of Steel he's probably Super Boy Prime...

The problem is that DC painted themselves into a corner when they made The Dark Knight. The movie was great and it gave them confidence to start turning out their comic book licenses. But Dark Knight was also very very dark, which is great for Batman, but not good for Superman. There is the "one size fits all" mentality in those movies where the joy of what makes them comic book movies is drained from them.

Now look at Marvel, while they have serious stakes in the movie, these movies also get that they are comic book movies and embrace that without being too cartoonish, hence their fun. Additionally each movie series and character has a different type of feel to it.

I'm not a comic book guy, but to me, it seems like Marvel knows who they are and what they are trying to sell, understanding that they aren't just selling to comic book fans. DC doesn't seem to understand who their characters are, which is why Superman just had the wrong tone.

To me I just want great movies

Look, we've been pretty lucky with the films we've done so far

Like the critically acclaimed Green Lantern and Man of Steel? And don't forget Catwoman. Those guys...so lucky!

I sort of don't believe that they aren't planning something larger than Bats vs Supes. Hollywood is build on copying other stuff so they would be seriously innovating if they didn't copy the MCU, plus the longer they wait to jump on the bandwagon the further ahead Marvel will get until they are releasing multiple Marvel movies per year and dominating the comic-to-movie sector. More than they already are I mean.

Woah, woah, wait for a goddamn minute...
The same person, who directed recent Batman and Superman movies is also directing The Sandman adaptation?!

Guess I'll have to prepare for Dream "punching out" information out of people and then snapping their necks.

If you haven't realised, I am crying a bit inside.

This is why Batman will only be WB's truly successful movies, there's no room for growth there.

Covarr:
I certainly wouldn't want to see this with Goyer at the helm. He made a mess of Blade 2, he made a mess of The Dark Knight Rises, and he made a mess of Man of Steel.

P.S. Thanks

Yep.

Mister K:
Woah, woah, wait for a goddamn minute...
The same person, who directed recent Batman and Superman movies is also directing The Sandman adaptation?!

Guess I'll have to prepare for Dream "punching out" information out of people and then snapping their necks.

If you haven't realised, I am crying a bit inside.

Directed? Goyer is the screenwriter he is writing the script for Sandman.

Goyer's writing credits.

Death Warrant (1990)
Demonic Toys (1992)
The Puppet Masters (1994)
The Crow: City of Angels (1996)
Dark City (1998)
Blade (1998)
Zig Zag (2002)
Blade II (2002)
Blade: Trinity (2004)
Puppet Master vs Demonic Toys (2004)
Batman Begins (2005) story and screenplay
Jumper (2008)
The Dark Knight (2008) story
The Unborn (2009)
Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance (2012) story
The Dark Knight Rises (2012) story
Man of Steel (2013)

Blade, The Dark Knight, Spirit of Vengeance... okay the first 2 are Goyer's best work :P

I think attributing the continuing success of Marvel's Cinematic Universe to "brand loyalty" is silly and misses the point. The Marvel movies are good, plain and simple. On their own , the movies that make up the MCU are damn fine movies; the fact that together they elevate and strengthen each other certainly doesn't hurt either. I didn't go see Winter Soldier because I'm loyal to Marvel; I went to see it because it looked good, and the last dozen Marvel movies were good, and people I trust said it was good.

Johnny Novgorod:
Weren't they making a Superman vs. Batman movie with Wonder Woman in it?

Yeah... They even moved it from "We are not trying to copy Marvel. We are our own thing..." to "We are out of ideas, out of faith and we want their money, so we are just going to compete with them in the most obvious way possible"

http://theweek.com/article/index/259499/speedreads-captain-america-3-and-batman-vs-superman-are-scheduled-to-come-out-on-the-same-day

It might not help that in DCs last ten years in of cinema only the Christopher Nolan Batman movies where even comparable in quality to Marvel's(except the Fantastic Four movies). It's possible to do pull it off but very hard to merge the movie 'verses of horrible films into one people will pay to see. They could make a Justice League movie right now or make it after releasing more individual hero's movies with no connection to the universe of each other of the JL movie.

Green Lantern was horrible. Both Superman movies were major let downs, with Man of Steel kinda ruining the righteous good guy who doesn't kill persona Supes had. Even Dark Knight Rises wasn't as well received as its predecessor(high standard there though). Just looking at DC list of recent films this past decade compared to Marvel is extremely slim(9 films counting Catwoman, Watchmen and Jonah Hex; compared to Marvels 12 not counting the 4 Spidermans, 2 Ghostriders, 2 FF4s, 2 Punishers, a Blade and Elektra. So 9 versus 24 cinema releases from 2004 to 2014.)They don't got the ammo to compete with Marvel because the sat and let opportunities slide while rushing poor scripts for major characters like Catwoman and Green Lantern out to be shot(regrettably with a camera not a flamethrower).

They could make a great stand alone Justice movie right now, but they're too scared the general movie audience won't recognize the characters and therefore not risk the $10 on it. I'd say they're either trying to copy Marvel but going slow(See the Batman and Superman with Wonder Woman movie coming soon along with their poor box office history I just typed), someone is trying but another group in the company is blocking it since they think they know how to make good movies(while wondering why people like them Marvel movies so much).

As long as they stop the damn reboots and origin stories, I don't care as long as DC gets their heads out of their collective ass. Have them gloss over the bad movies and build on the character's rich history without destroying the foundation and spending 100 minutes on screen pouring a new one. Wonder Woman can have flash backs occasionally to the time when she was Princess of the Amazons(well she still is but you know). Martian Manhunter can tell the other heroes how he became the last of his kind. Everyone is well aware that Bruce Wayne's parents were shot by a mugger when he was a kid. Man of Steel could have had Supes already stopping runaway trains and catching failing jets before Zod's crew dropped in for a dance with one scene with Jor-El quickly saying "me dad, you alien, planet dead, they bad." Likewise, Sony didn't need to reboot Spidey. All they had to do was throw in a couple flashbacks and a few lines about Peter being bit by a radiated spider while in the Lizard's lab and kick off the plot after Spidey already was in the public eye.

OR heres a silly idea... Just let Marvel & Disney's movies studios make the movies. Its not like both comic companies dont trade editors, writers, & artists. But pride and looking weak and the dozens of stuck in the past license holders of DC's hero properties etc etc.

You know, two years ago I had almost zero interest in the Marvel universe aside from a bit of Spider-Man. I was more familiar with DC superheroes from cartoons and comics, and I had almost no knowledge or interest in anything related to Marvel. In fact, I didn't even want to watch The Avengers when it came out because I wasn't familiar with any of the characters, but at least two weeks before it was pulled from theaters, I changed my mind and watched all four existing Marvel films (aside from The Hulk movies) before watching Marvel's crossover.

It took approximately one week for me to become a fan of Marvel superheroes. One, fucking, week. With the exception of maybe Iron Man 2, all it took was some great movies that relied on good storytelling and characters, and not on the fact that everyone watching had read the comics beforehand.

The only reason why Warner Brothers is pushing for a Justice League movie is because they think they could cash in their own superhero crossover, but all I see is a brash kid trying to copy another kid's class project with little planning, LOTS of bad decision making, and no idea on what made the project so great in the first place.

I wonder, what was behind the decision not to make a cohesive storyline like Marvel; Too much hard work? Perhaps they are stuck in the pre-Marvel mindset that people don't want a unified experience because it would be too confusing.

Personally I think that DC should keep on keepin' on with their track record of one-off movies and not try to tie into some big grand universe.

At least that way they can avoid the obvious trap of "Where the hell are the other super heroes when all this is going down?" :P

So yeah. DC wants to make the sort of money marvel makes but alas lacks the scrotal fortitude to decent world building. Which makes sense. Marvel banked on this for like 8 years.... and they got their payoff. DC wants the payoff but doesn't want to do any of the ground work. Then again.. DC has been sort off all over the place. chaing fads and trends... I mean look at new 52?

Seriously.... seriously DC just grow some balls.

also FYI Goyer is a writer and before you blame him for man of steel. the writer is the guy with the least actual control over the movie... funnily enough. The writer gets told what to put in, what to take out and they basically have to patch it in.

BigTuk:
DC has been sort off all over the place. chasing fads and trends... I mean look at new 52?

You should advise them not to.

Anyway, I watched The Winter Soldier Yesterday, I got to see the Falcon in a film for the first time, I bet no one out side of omics who are the majority of the audience knew who he was but Marvel actually went for it and made it work well. We are getting Guardian's of the Galaxy, one of Marvel's most obscure team this summer.

We will never see a movie with the New Gods, Doom Patrol or even Teen Titan's because DC's film division have no vision. Man of Steel is proof of that, "The Dark Knight was successful lets see the same approach with Superman even though it doesn't suit the genre or tone"

Ugh, and as for Goyer, he may have to jumble the plot thanks to outside sources but he can't be excused for the often stupid dialogue (and using Lois even though there's clearly no need). _

V4Viewtiful:

BigTuk:
DC has been sort off all over the place. chasing fads and trends... I mean look at new 52?

You should advise them not to.

Anyway, I watched The Winter Soldier Yesterday, I got to see the Falcon in a film for the first time, I bet no one out side of omics who are the majority of the audience knew who he was but Marvel actually went for it and made it work well. We are getting Guardian's of the Galaxy, one of Marvel's most obscure team this summer.

We will never see a movie with the New Gods, Doom Patrol or even Teen Titan's because DC's film division have no vision. Man of Steel is proof of that, "The Dark Knight was successful lets see the same approach with Superman even though it doesn't suit the genre or tone"

Ugh, and as for Goyer, he may have to jumble the plot thanks to outside sources but he can't be excused for the often stupid dialogue (and using Lois even though there's clearly no need). _

That's just it. Marvel has basically reached the point where they can make smash hitrs with their B and C list character... I mean Guardians of the Galaxy... come on... and that will likely kick ass.

They must have someone with Vision but it's backbone that's lacking. The animated films more or less prove this that they have writers that know how to write good stories. They just aren't allowed to do it for movies because the execs at DC are afraid. They want generic because with generic it's easy for them to just say 'do over' and reboot the thing.

The thing about the Marvel universe all having tie ins to each other that I like is it is not required to have intimate knowledge of the other movies. You can watch the Thor movies and enjoy them and never see an iron man movie. Having the whole universe being connected is simply the icing on the cake for those that do watch them all. I cannot see that coming from DC because they keep trying to rebrand well known brands into something they are not.

There is also how the comics have always been done. DC had lots of different worlds that didn't have any real sense of connection to one another. Supermans world feels different than Batmans and trying to shoehorn Superman into Gotham city would feel just wrong, Batmans world is dark and gritty while Supermans is bright and new. Then you have The Justice League which feels like an entirely different world than the ones each hero had come from. It feels like that because they were all completely unrelated until The Justice league was started. Marvel on the other hand has always felt like they all belonged to the same universe, there was no need to remake the universe for The Avengers.

Yeah, they probably scrapped the idea for a cohesive movie universe right about the time they realized having so many setups for a sequel in the Green Lantern movie was a bad idea.

Fire these people. They will kill your business Warner.

There's not allot of brand loyalty? Is this man insane? Yes there's not allot of brand loyalty for the grim dark Nolan superman, but might I remind you of a little company called Disney? They basically bought your competitor based solely on the billions it's making with the movies based on characters that supposedly have no brand loyalty.

If you actually make the character people want to see. That's when you get loyalty. Not when you turn loose the Nolan and combine it with the lens flare guy.

Seriously here's the formula. Create an over arching universe story that is extremely basic, but allows for enough creative direction so that the movies can converge on a single point. Then make movies based on the characters and try to capture the essence of that character as closely as possible, don't bother with the modernization or any of that nonsense, sometimes the corniness is what is required of the hero.

Make em distinct and actually stand for something. What you don't want is fans choking on their popcorn as Papa Kent tells Clark to "Let them die" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swvf3w6hcY4

Brand loyalty exists for brands, you have to understand something different... you are more than a brand. You are the new gods. Everyone has heard of these characters. Everyone. There is not a person in this world that does not recognize the characters you have. There is no need to appeal to the audience. Make the movie and they will come. Make a universe and they will stay.

Creating a cohesive all inclusive universe is hard? Hmmm? Maybe DC's first best call would be to get rid of contributors like Mr. Goyer and make a phone call to the nice people making Arrow? Or how about simply giving Bruce Timm and Paul Dini a call?

Kumagawa Misogi:

Directed? Goyer is the screenwriter he is writing the script for Sandman.

Goyer's writing credits.

Death Warrant (1990)
Demonic Toys (1992)
The Puppet Masters (1994)
The Crow: City of Angels (1996)
Dark City (1998)
Blade (1998)
Zig Zag (2002)
Blade II (2002)
Blade: Trinity (2004)
Puppet Master vs Demonic Toys (2004)
Batman Begins (2005) story and screenplay
Jumper (2008)
The Dark Knight (2008) story
The Unborn (2009)
Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance (2012) story
The Dark Knight Rises (2012) story
Man of Steel (2013)

I wish there was a way to isolate parts of scripts so you could see who provided the most influence for what, because I have a hard time believing Goyer has that much talent to write movie scripts. A lot of those movies are written not just by him, but other people. I can't find what his influences are in a lot of movies, except that he writes a lot of sci-fi, but Dark City which I love and own, is more complex than anything he can really write.

OT: I almost think a DC universe movie would not and should not be made. Warner Brothers is behind on a lot of this, yes, but trying to follow the herd just won't work. Without giving us another Batman (If Superman V. Batman is anything to go by), and completely affecting the stories and ideas, I just don't know how it will work and be enjoyable or even any good. I could be wrong, I still want to see Lex Luthor played by Jesse Eisenberg to work, but a Justice League movie shouldn't be made, and setting it up to that inevitable conclusion is a bad idea.

Johnny Novgorod:
Weren't they making a Superman vs. Batman movie with Wonder Woman in it?

I guess putting her in their movie would be a nice cop out...cause no one knows who Wonder Woman is

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