Batman v Superman Writer Called Out For Sexist She-Hulk Shaming

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Batman v Superman Writer Called Out For Sexist She-Hulk Shaming

shehulk

Warner Bros "comic guru" calls Marvel heroine "chunky" and "a green porn star."

Warner Bros more or less annointed David Goyer as the "guru" of their work-in-progress DC Universe movies based on his close working relationship with The Dark Knight's Christopher Nolan and on Nolan himself moving out of the DC-adaptation game for things that actually interest him. But an unexpected internet outrage flare-up today (which was supposed to be a celebration of the exceptionally-silly, excessively-90s title for the Man of Steel sequel/Justice League prequel) may have them regretting that decision.

Multiple comics/film sites are registering outrage (or, at least, grim bemusement) at comments Goyer made during Tuesday night's Scriptnotes Podcast discussion of superhero movies. Riffing off of host Craig Mazin opining that the character's real name should be "Slut-Hulk" because of her more feminine (than The Hulk) build, Goyer offered that "She's still pretty chunky. She was like Chyna from the WWE." He then went on to theorize that "Shulkie's" conception was an attempt to give Marvel fans "A chick you could f*** if you were Hulk, you know what I'm saying?"

He also questions whether or not a man created the character, suggesting that he doesn't know - and while sites like The Mary Sue and best-selling comics author Gail Simone have been hitting him hard for the surprisingly blunt sexism on display, others like Badass Digest are pointing out the less important (but still troubling) fact that Warner Bros "comics guru" doesn't actually seem to know that much about comics - even the ones he's supposed to be helping bring to screen.

For example, that She-Hulk (a female lawyer who got augmented Hulk powers via a blood-transfusion from Bruce Banner) was created by none other than Stan Lee and John Buscema as a preemptive measure to prevent producers of the Incredible Hulk TV series from making knockoff characters of their own (something you can just look up,) and that she's not (in mainstream Marvel canon) a sexual partner for The Hulk - mostly because they're cousins. And while the character's cult-fave 80s series was famous for it's sexy "cheesecake" artwork, it was in service of a self-aware humor gimmick (She-Hulk could break the fourth wall and talk to the audience) making fun of comic tropes like pointless "sexy" posing/costuming.

Goyer is credited with the "story and screenplay" of WB's upcoming Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, though said screenplay is currently being rewritten by Chris Terrio. The film is currently scheduled to open on May 6, 2016 opposite Marvel's Captain America 3.

Source: The Mary Sue, Badass Digest

Permalink

Why does Warner Bros. insist on keeping him around?

I mean, his stupid political beliefs and lack of knowledge about the source material aside, Goyer seems to leak out a lot of important details that Warner Brothers wants to hide. Remember when he said "we aren't doing an in-continuity DC tie in to compete with the Avengers."

If I were an investor, and I heard this guy was spilling company secrets, I'd throw his butt on the street. Why is he still around? Do the executives think because of his credentials on Nolan's Batman that he's worth keeping around?

Wow...just...wow.
The level of stupid of some people is amazing.

I think anyone in any kind of 'public light' needs to take a course on 'How To Speak In Public Without Coming Off As A Dumbass 101'.

Huh, and I thought Goyer couldn't be any worse at his job. Go figure.

That explains a hell of a lot though.

Really classy there, really classy. Because of course a female superhero is only there to be 'A chick you could f***'.
Fuck's sake the things we come out with just get worse and worse.

Jamous:
Really classy there, really classy. Because of course a female superhero is only there to be 'A chick you could f***'.
Fuck's sake the things we come out with just get worse and worse.

The context is that he thought she was a bad female superhero because he felt that she was created for the purpose of titilating guys and not for her own right (with the assumption that he feels there are female superheros not created for this purpose). He still said a terrible thing, but if you read Badass' article for example it does explain in some more detail why it's a terrible thing.

MovieBob:
He then went on to theorize that "Shulkie's" conception was an attempt to give Marvel fans "A chick you could f*** if you were Hulk, you know what I'm saying?"

Whilst it was ultimately an awful thing to say, and lacking in any knowledge and thought. Putting the quote like that is a bit distorting right? Because it makes it sound like 'Heck yeah, she's a Hulk f***' instead of 'and I think this is a bad thing'

EDIT: Actually I've become less certain that's what he meant. Someone saying

She-Hulk was the extension of the male power fantasy.

would normally be implying negative connotations, but I'm not entirely sure with these guys

MovieBob:
The film is currently scheduled to open on May 6, 2016 opposite Marvel's Captain America 3.

This was intentional?!! Opening a risk venture against a long standing cash cow, perpetuating the needless DC vs Marvel paradigm at the cusp of summer? What idiotic paper pushing accountant thought this was a good idea?

DevilWithaHalo:
This was intentional?!! Opening a risk venture against a long standing cash cow, perpetuating the needless DC vs Marvel paradigm at the cusp of summer? What idiotic paper pushing accountant thought this was a good idea?

Eh, it's 2 years out from now. They're almost certainly going to change it based on how well the next year or two does with building up hype for it. They probably just picked that date to make a statement about competing with Marvel still or whatever.

Well, if we're perfectly fair, why WAS She-Hulk created?

To nab little girls? Or to titillate boys? I doubt it was because they thought she was a great character.

Anyway, how annoying. Not much else to say, just "How annoying".

He was clearly joking about a fictional character. I hate when types of "controversies" come out. Just say it, "I don't like David Goyer." Hell, explain why in detail. I hated Man of Steel, too. Don't wait around and pick apart what he says like a petty child. I hope he doesn't apologize for this utter nonsense.

I wonder how many people at the WB are now slamming their faces against their desks...

Why would you say this? I just don't get it. After all the flak, after all the anger, after all the firings that other people go through when they say these things in public, you'd think other people would start to learn. Apparently that is not the case. If you're joking, then there's a better way to tell the joke. If you're truly trying to say that you think something is dumb, there are better ways to phrase it than this.

I think he was just being a dick. I honestly can't get all worked up into a frenzy over this(even as someone who likes She-Hulk as a modern character). One thing the entire internet is not about this kind of thing, is classy. I don't particularly care for what he said, I don't care for his writing, but the guy just said something stupid. I can get beyond it pretty quick when I don't care about what someone thinks.

She-Hulk was clearly created in an era where there was very little creativity and the best thing someone could come up with was to make a female version of the Hulk (Why stan, WHY!?!). She is a good and strong character now. Fiercely independent, strong willed, and girl who likes to have fun but isn't afraid to stand up against some bullshit. In the initial origins, the character Jennifer was struggling in law school and easily stepped on. The transformation also changed her personality, made her more outgoing and ready to tackle life. If anything, she should stand as strong character on her own from the beginning, also meaning that she would not give a shit about what David Goyer said about her. Everyone on the internet should take a page from that.

Ooooooh man is he going to regret that...
This is a really dickish statement, and it's just rife with all sorts of stuff that we in the biz call "PR suicide." Honestly, I don't feel any sympathy for this guy, the internet punishing him for saying stupid things is just natural selection at work as far as I see it.

Countdown to Tumblr rightly tearing him a new one begiiiiiiiins NOW!

*slowly facepalms*

Oh GOD he sounds so stupid...

Does he even realize how stupid he sounds? >_<

lacktheknack:
Well, if we're perfectly fair, why WAS She-Hulk created?

To nab little girls? Or to titillate boys? I doubt it was because they thought she was a great character.

Anyway, how annoying. Not much else to say, just "How annoying".

The article mentioned why they made her.

"was created by none other than Stan Lee and John Buscema as a preemptive measure to prevent producers of the Incredible Hulk TV series from making knockoff characters of their own"

Also, I'd disagree that she isn't an interesting character.
She's Bruce's lawyer cousin, who because of a blood transfusion can hulk up(or whatever you call it) and while not being as strong as hulk, she doesn't turn into a big rage monster either.

Haven't read the comics, but I wonder if they let her prosecute the crooks she brings in.
The one case I saw of her was when she was defending Bruce in court. Not sure if she'd actually be able to do that either.

Conflict of interest and what not.

lacktheknack:
Well, if we're perfectly fair, why WAS She-Hulk created?

To nab little girls? Or to titillate boys? I doubt it was because they thought she was a great character.

A far more petty reason, actually. The article itself says that Stan Lee thought the producers of the Incredible Hulk TV show would make a female Hulk, and he wanted Marvel and himself to own the rights for that kind of character.

Anyway, to the topic at hand:
I don't mind him not knowing the trivia behind the creation of the character, or the fact that he isn't aware that Hulk and She-Hulk are cousins (though it makes his point both hilarious and nasty). It's him acting like he knows what he's talking about when he doesn't combined with the blatant dismissal of this sort of stuff that irks me, and just makes me keep thinking BvS probably isn't going to be that good.

The whole "Slut-Hulk" thing (not mentioned in this article, but in another) doesn't help.

DevilWithaHalo:

MovieBob:
The film is currently scheduled to open on May 6, 2016 opposite Marvel's Captain America 3.

This was intentional?!! Opening a risk venture against a long standing cash cow, perpetuating the needless DC vs Marvel paradigm at the cusp of summer? What idiotic paper pushing accountant thought this was a good idea?

Marvel are the ones releasing it next to DC's film, as DC's original release was opposite Avengers 2 then they changed it and Marvel announced it as CA3's release date as well.

Right, first id like to remind people what the page image for fanservice on TvTropes is.

And She-Hulk has had relationships with many male characters over the years.

So his comment isnt entirely unfounded.

MovieBob:
And while the character's cult-fave 80s series was famous for it's sexy "cheesecake" artwork, it was in service of a self-aware humor gimmick (She-Hulk could break the fourth wall and talk to the audience) making fun of comic tropes like pointless "sexy" posing/costuming.

first, full disclosure, i am not an expert on she-hulk

but... from what youre telling me
it seems like all they did was point out how stupid something was and then did that exact same thing anyway
that's not deconstruction or satire. that's just doing the thing except and at the end you get smug about it and say, "im way cooler than that i only did it to show you how stupid it was yeah totally man im not actually into that stuff"

I know he's putting it rather coarsely but let's face it, most superheroines are sexualized gender benders of preexisting male superheroes. She doesn't even have a name of her own, she's called SHE-Hulk. At least that's what I think Goyer was (poorly) driving at: disregarding a character as a superficial, sexified gender bender. Which, let's face it, she kinda looks like if you don't know anything about her.

She-Hulk Shaming is a wonderful euphemism we should use more often. That aside, come on Goyer, I thought you were cool, not a dick. Makes me nervous about what you're doing with Wonder Woman now.

gigastar:
Right, first id like to remind people what the page image for fanservice on TvTropes is.

And She-Hulk has had relationships with many male characters over the years.

So his comment isnt entirely unfounded.

Because misleading comic covers and spoofing and satirizing the tropes she's being accused of aren't a thing? And because a female character having sexual relationships with multiple characters must mean she was only created as fan service right?

Give me a break.

gigastar:
Right, first id like to remind people what the page image for fanservice on TvTropes is.

And She-Hulk has had relationships with many male characters over the years.

So his comment isnt entirely unfounded.

Lots of character have sex in comics, but everyone seems to love calling out She Hulk about her sexual exploits.

I would claim that the way she approaches sex isn't any weirder than pretty much any sitcom that features women in the main cast, like Friends (Rachel has a new boyfriend every two episodes) or Ally McBiel or even Sex in the City.

Plus calling her chunky is just retarded. The woman has a bigger frame because she packs on giant frame from packing on huge amounts of Irradiated MUSCLE. Nothing annoyes me more than seeing SheHulk in a professionally drawn comic and she has the same figure as a play boy bunny.

Coruptin:

MovieBob:
And while the character's cult-fave 80s series was famous for it's sexy "cheesecake" artwork, it was in service of a self-aware humor gimmick (She-Hulk could break the fourth wall and talk to the audience) making fun of comic tropes like pointless "sexy" posing/costuming.

first, full disclosure, i am not an expert on she-hulk

but... from what youre telling me
it seems like all they did was point out how stupid something was and then did that exact same thing anyway
that's not deconstruction or satire. that's just doing the thing except and at the end you get smug about it and say, "im way cooler than that i only did it to show you how stupid it was yeah totally man im not actually into that stuff"

AKA: 'The Kill la Kill Method'

OT: Okay, I'm no She-Hulk historian, but from what I have gleamed from my few minutes of 'research,' David Goyer's comments aren't ENTIRELY unfounded. She-Hulk, through out the years has flaunted her sexuality, and she, as a character, has been very outgoing with it. She's also had a ton of romantic partners throughout her history. In short, she loves being sexy, and she has a lot of sex.

Now, the issue here seems to be that Goyer is seemingly insulting her for being that way. As if, having a very casual attitude towards sex and sexuality is somehow a bad thing. She-Hulk is a character that makes the independent decision to view sex in a fun and nonchalant manner, and Goyer seems to think that's worth deriding, or at the very least, poking fun at.

Yes, I realize he's coming from a good place. He's making an attempt at calling out the comic book industry for historically backwards views towards women, unfortunately, he rather drastically slut-shames in the process. And frankly, now I find myself worried that this is the guy responsible for putting the single most popular female superhero of all time on the silver screen.

"[...] though said screenplay [BS:DoJ] is currently being rewritten by Chris Terrio."

Well I guess that's.. better? Goyer should be fired. I don't know if this incident justifies it, but they should just ride the outrage wave and embrace the opportunity to sack this guy before he ruins anything else.

It's shit like this that infuriates me to no conceivable end.

For those who are unenlightened, allow an actual fan of She-Hulk to offer some insight. Yes, Stan Lee and and John Buscema made her to " prevent producers of the Incredible Hulk TV series from making knockoff characters of their own". They did the same thing for Spider-Woman. Yes, her Savage She-Hulk run was not that great. That said, she is a character that has improved over the years both in writing and in development. Thanks to writers like Roger Stern and John Byrne, she slowly became her own woman. She was a member of the Avengers and the Fantastic Four at one time in her life. Her fourth wall breaking exploits were due to Byrne's run on Sensational She-Hulk (this was long before Deadpool made it his own thing). I would also like to point out that she had a spectacular run in 2004-2005 with Amazing Spider-Man writer Dan Slott. Today, she is back in a new series being written by Charles Soule (another great title I'd like to recommend).

It's insulting on so many levels that Goyer is seen as DC's go-to-guy for their comic book movies when he has no fucking clue about comics and zero respect for its fan-base. You want to know why DC Comics and Warner Bros are seen as a fucking joke?! Its because they hire insufferable ass-wipe like him. -_-

MovieBob:
"She's still pretty chunky. She was like Chyna from the WWE."

What makes this hilarious is that I know for a fact there is a porn parody of the Avengers and She-Hulk is played by... you guessed it, Chyna (random aside: "Chyna in green body paint" my be the least titillating pitch for porn I have ever heard). Don't ask me how I know this. *shiftyeyes*

OT: I'm sadly not surprised by this. people who don'y know or care about comics seem to have the weirdest tenancy to end up in charge of them.

Sexism: "is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender." [wikipedia]
Prejudice: "prejudgment, or forming an opinion before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case" [wikipedia]
Discrimination: "prejudicial treatment of an individual or group based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or category" [wikipedia]

Mr. Chipman, you penned the title to this article. Could you explain why you think the expressions, "She's still pretty chunky. She was like Chyna from the WWE." and/or, "A chick you could f*** if you were Hulk, you know what I'm saying?" are sexist or even shaming?

It seems to me that the first phrase is only a physical description. The second is speculation about a corporation's reason to bring the character into existence. Either way, making a determination of whether an opinion is sexist or not usually requires knowledge of what factors, if any, were considered in the formation of that opinion, in lieu of someone actually saying, "--because she's a woman." As the definition of sexism requires: the opinion must be based on a person's sex or gender. His opinion may well be formed on other factors surrounding the character-- how have you determined that they are not? Am I missing something?

MovieBob:
Batman v Superman Writer Called Out For Sexist She-Hulk Shaming

Goyer offered that "She's still pretty chunky. She was like Chyna from the WWE."
[b]Permalink

Hey Goyer, you know "Hulk" is in her name right? She's not "She Glamour Model", or "She Twig". She's "She *I crush cars into sardine cans f***ing* HULK"! Of course there was titillation involved in her character creation (like every mainstream heroine created for series of never-ending stories that serve as ad vehicles for peddling crap to boys and - more-so now - men). Did Goyer not see what DC did to Catwoman or the Teen Titans?
- - - - - - -
Better a woman that actually looks like she can throw a truck around than that american apparel model who's joints WB will destroy trying to beef her up to play Wonder Woman. They better give her a good insurance plan because I'm anticipating the need for knee surgury down the line.

Calling her chunky is like calling an outside linebacker a tub-o-lard. Is Goyer going to go up to an outside linebacker and call him a tub-o-lard? No (a- it would be a lie; b- it would be a stupid thing to do). Everything eslse he said was idiotic too. Ye gods, this Goyer guy is a dumbass!

My favorite response to this was by Alan Kistler, who said Just to clarify some points, She-Hulk was indeed created in 1980 by men: Stan Lee and John Buscema. And generally, She-Hulk is not portrayed as the only woman the Hulk can have sex with because first and foremost, they're cousins, and the Hulk has had several romantic interests in the comics. Also, we'd be remiss if we didn't add it's an extremely offensive thing to say about a female character. Since her introduction, She-Hulk has been a woman of agency and strength, one who quickly took control of her mutation to become a hero and who has never let herself be held back by sexist double-standards and the expectations of others who can't handle her power, intelligence and sexual confidence.

You know what other super-heroine is traditionally seen as having a large build? Wonder Woman.

I wanted post a Picard Facepalm, but Goyer just isn't worth it.

OH. MY. JESUS. GOD.

We're effectively fucked out of seeing any respect in translating DC's most iconic heroes as long as this guy's at the helm. First Manhunter, now this?! Time to cry.

I'm more offended by his shitty writing than him saying stupid things about comic book characters.

Baresark:

She-Hulk was clearly created in an era where there was very little creativity and the best thing someone could come up with was to make a female version of the Hulk (Why stan, WHY!?!).

The "why" is a little more difficult than that, as they often created female versions of their superheroes so other people couldn't.

major_chaos:
(random aside: "Chyna in green body paint" my be the least titillating pitch for porn I have ever heard). Don't ask me how I know this. *shiftyeyes*

I'm pretty sure the least titillating pitch would be "Chyna in green bodypaint opposite Sean Waltman as Wolverine...."

90sgamer:
Sexism: "is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender." [wikipedia]
Prejudice: "prejudgment, or forming an opinion before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case" [wikipedia]
Discrimination: "prejudicial treatment of an individual or group based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or category" [wikipedia]

Mr. Chipman. You penned the title to this article, " could you explain why you think the expressions, "She's still pretty chunky. She was like Chyna from the WWE." and/or, "A chick you could f*** if you were Hulk, you know what I'm saying?" are sexist or even shaming?

*looks at description*
*looks at question*

Are you serious? I really can't tell.

Anyway, the "chunky" but is pretty freaking stupid in this context. I mean, has he seen the Hulk?

Happiness Assassin:
You know what other super-heroine is traditionally seen as having a large build? Wonder Woman.

Who has been portrayed in the past as a chick for Superman to fuck, so I'm not sure that necessarily helps.

DevilWithaHalo:

MovieBob:
The film is currently scheduled to open on May 6, 2016 opposite Marvel's Captain America 3.

This was intentional?!! Opening a risk venture against a long standing cash cow, perpetuating the needless DC vs Marvel paradigm at the cusp of summer? What idiotic paper pushing accountant thought this was a good idea?

For the record, Marvel staked a claim on the May 6th date first, they just hadn't announced which film they were going to put there at the time WB decided to delay BvS.

So it was WB who misplaced the company brain cell in this instance.

Kumagawa Misogi:
Marvel are the ones releasing it next to DC's film, as DC's original release was opposite Avengers 2 then they changed it and Marvel announced it as CA3's release date as well.

Um... no. BvS was originally going to be released a whole two months after Avengers 2.

Actually She Hulk was forced into a 'relationship' with The Hulk in Old Man Logan, resulting in a entire clan of inbred hulk hicks that controlled the west coast.

Of course this was one of those 'alternate/what if' series that had Bruce Banner go evil so make what you will.

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