Goyer's Martian Manhunter Comments Are Why DC Can't Have Nice Things

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Doomed. Doomed doomed doomed. If this is the attitude of the guy behind the Batman v. Superman movie, and the apparent Justice League movie, then they're doomed. Maybe they pull of the impossible. Maybe Goyer has an amazing film up his sleeve. But as it stands, it looks like this movie and DC's dreams are in ruins before they even get off the ground.

And this is why DC's cincematic universe sucks. I;ve always asked... why don't they put the guys working on their animated stuff to work on their movies. *they* atleast get the characters or the fandom.

I think what made Avengers a sting to DC is that marvel essentially mad gold from the straw they couldn't sell off.

Can Batman V. Superman just bomb already so we can see the death of these DC movies?

While I'm sure more people just want to see adaptations of these, I think we should just acknowledge when there's a lost cause and see something dead. Marvel has some skilled writers behind the movies that find the right balance between "wide audience appeal" and "Marvel fans, here's Rocket Raccoon." DC obviously does not. Let's just see the end of this before they remodel Wonder Woman so that she's a female Batman.

Scars Unseen:
I still think someone should hire Brian Clevinger(8-bit Theater, Atomic Robo) to give a go at a script. Teamed up with a competent director(that also loves comics), he could write stuff that would rival Whedon's stuff easily.

Atomic Robo is the raining champ of fun and wittiness.

The fact that the part of the article that left the most impression with me was the part that made me go, "Oh, cool; a reference to the landmark case that established judicial review!" probably indicates that I do not possess a healthy mind.

Yes because when I go to see a comic book movie I don't want to see weird interesting things! I want to be bored out of my skull watching humans walking around talking about stuff or bad comedy.

I have always said it and I will say it again.

When it comes to comic books DC has icons and Marvel has characters. However when it comes to movies Marvel is proud of what it has and DC is ashamed to actually stand behind their own legacy.

Remember John Carter. Cutting of the "Of Mars" bit of didn't help it at all. It might have actually been better to stick "Of Mars" in there because then you might have attracted some people going "Hey that looks like a weird sci-fi movie, let's check it out.

i dont think the MM is obscure, he has appeared in all the justice league cartoons, atleast the good ones, like justice league unlimited and young justice, i think a lot of kids, teens and even adults are aware of the character, id even dare say theyd expect him in a JL movie, because hes appeared in those cartoons

id be like making a movie about the teen titans and not include cyborg, again that character gained popularity because of the good use the cartoon made of him

bdcjacko:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ironman, Thor, and Capt. America were all B-list super heroes before their movies? I mean sure the average man on the street could have probably been able to name them if shown a picutre, but they aren't the A listers like Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Wolverine or the Hulk. I feel like Martian Manhunter would be at least a B- lister, the average fan would say they recognize him. He shows up in the JLA cartoons and one off cartoon movies. It isn't like he is this Rocket Raccoon Marvel has a movie for.

Point is you can introduce this Martian Manhunter in other movies not unlike how Hawkeye and Black Widow were introduced in Thor and Ironman 2 respectively. Sure he is a silly character (i mean that from an outsiders perspective) but he isn't any sillier than Thor or all of Guardian;s cast. And that is half the point of superhero comic books, is to have these silly characters that do awesome things.

Goyer is short sighted and undervaluing what the mass will accept. Hell the masses just went in droves to see Godzilla. I think they can buy a flying green dude.

Actually the thing is that the Marvel stable has a lot of characters that seem like they should be obscure, cult, things, things but are actually pretty mainstream. Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, and others did the multi-generational thing being popular with the Baby Boomers, Gen X, and continueing to have awareness among the Millenials. The mistake in dealing with this kind of thing is that they are equating sales to awareness, overlooking how many hands a comic book passes through and how many readers it tends to have, not to mention how the internet lead to huge stockpiles of comics being scanned and put online for free, long before comic companies got the idea of running their own digital services and doing the same thing for money. The result is that while "common sense" dictates that something like Iron Man shouldn't be well known, it actually was, and it had a large fan base waiting for it. Marvel seems to be reluctant to acknowledge this, as does the media in general.

With DC you have characters that have been around even longer than Marvel characters and have also done the cross generational thing. I'm not sure how many characters in their continuity you can really call "obscure" as a general rule if a comic character was ever popular enough to get a chance to hold down their own book, it cannot be considered truely obscure, especially if that book remained in publication for a year or more and the character continued to exist and be used in other titles even after it's failure (assuming it failed).

The problem with DC's universe as I see things is that DC is intended to be goofy, and where Marvel has largely maintained a solid continuity, DC likes to blow it's up every few years for sales reasons (though Marvel seems intent on trying something similar, which I expect will backfire). For example in DC people go around calling themselves "Captain" whatever without a reason, where in Marvel if someone calls themselves "Captain" it usually comes from an actual rank or position. Marvel being a bit more grounded in reality (compared to other comic properties) and thus being able to be handled fairly realistically, where DC isn't remotely even trying to be grounded in reality. Something as outright silly as DC is going to be an entirely different audience than for Marvel (which is why the two co-exist so well), and not embracing that ridiculousness (stuff that seems like it should be from a comedy, but isn't) is doing it a disservice and simply serves to turn it's efforts into a "follow the leader" relationship with Marvel. The exception tothis of course being the one property they have managed to make money off of: Batman, largely because Batman is one of the few fairly grounded DC comics, to the point where he pretty much exists in his own reality bubble a lot of the time despite being officially part of the DC universe. A lot of critics have oftentimes talked about "Gotham Reality" as opposed to "DC reality" and how much effort is made to pretty much keep the rest of the universe from bleeding into Batman's corner of the world too much so they can continue making gritty, low-powered stories about psychopaths in costumes beating the crap out of each other.

As a general rule the guy who has written successful Batman movies, is the last guy you want to be dealing with other DC properties. The studios also need to realize is that if things look and sound absurd they are doing it right, because that is DC's trademark, nobody takes DC seriously, especially DC. I mean cripes DC is a world where intelligent Gorillas with an anti-humanist agenda invading say New York to devolve people is a viable, recurring, threat... stop and think about that one for a second. To do DC right you need to really embrace the sheer, ridiculous, absurdity of the entire thing while treating it in a deadpan fashion. This is what makes it somewhat different from Marvel which while equally absurd in an absolute sense doesn't take it to the same ridiculous extremes (at least not as often).

I mean crud, all you need to do is have contemplate doing "Captain Marvel" (one of their longest running, and most continually successful properties in one form or another), and then ask yourself "why does he call himself 'Captain'". Some crazy wizard just pretty much told Billy "you change into CAPTAIN Marvel" and people just kind of ran with it including him. In short your not supposed to think about it too hard, that's DC... and that's what DC movies need to try and capture IMO if they want to be successful and do their own thing. :)

Regarding this and the related article:

It feels like more and more of these "gotcha" moments are cropping up and I'm the kind of person who tries to deconstruct perspectives to understand why certain things are said. It's coming to the point where I feel there were legitimate mistakes made that aren't that awful with the proper context, but they're mixed with real, honestly stupid thoughts. It's like untangling Christmas lights - eventually you just want to chuck the whole thing against a wall and forget it, which saddens me.

Goyer is fucking idiot. Its no wonder DC can't hold a candle to Marvel movie wise with guys like him in charge.

Another thing Goyer said that I think gives a good picture of the guy:

In response to being asked about the hero, Goyer asked, "How many people in the audience have heard of Martian Manhunter?" After hearing some light applause and cheers, he added, "How many people that raised their hands have ever been laid?"

What is he, freaking 15?
Source is the article from The Mary Sue.

Tanis:
Why is it DC can do so much good with their cartoons, but suck at the live action stuff?

I think its because their animated shows were done mostly for their own sake while the live action stuff was "Marvel made a shit-load of money with the shared universe idea so we've got to get in on that!"

You know, a couple years ago I had absolutely no idea who most of the Avengers were. I was more familiar with the DC characters, and the only Marvel heroes I knew most about were the X Men, the Fantastic 4 and Spider-Man.
The Marvel cinematic universe was meant to promote the heroes of Marvel comics, and it worked. As dumb as their decisions with their own comic book series' are (both Marvel and DC have serious problems with their editorial staff), Marvel knew what made their characters popular and had their heroes fleshed out in each film, and rather than trying to be relevant by making themselves too gritty and realistic, they fully embraced their comic book image. They knew they had to make multiple films in order to build up to The Avengers, and they had this entire roadmap to get to where they are now. Despite having absolutely no idea who most of them were, the Avengers became some of the my favorite superheroes ever because Disney and Marvel put actual thought into their films.

DC is like a school kid who's jealous at his classmate's A-grade project, and wants to show off by making an even better version of the project, only to get everything wrong on how his classmate did his work in the first place. DC can't embrace their own comic book legacy in their films, they don't know how to make a good movie crossover, they don't know how to present their characters anything but brooding and gritty, and they keep hiring either the wrong or the most incompetent people for their movies. Sure we've only seen Man of Steel come out, but from all this news, it's getting clearer that DC has absolutely no idea what they're doing.

I'm going to be laughing hilariously when their next two films crash and burn. It'll be pitiful, but at least it'll be a pretty fireworks display. Meanwhile, I'm already anticipating the film adaptations of Big Hero 6 and Guardians of the Galaxy, which are again Marvel comics that I've absolutely no idea about but look extremely interesting nevertheless.

RossaLincoln:
After first dismissing Martian Manhunter as too obscure to matter, Goyer explained how he can't see making use of the character without removing nearly everything associated with the character.

Scars Unseen:
I still think someone should hire Brian Clevinger(8-bit Theater, Atomic Robo) to give a go at a script. Teamed up with a competent director(that also loves comics), he could write stuff that would rival Whedon's stuff easily.

Clevinger can do wonderful things with dry wit, but I've yet to see anything that makes me think he can handle the drama to balance it. That's the biggest thing about the Marvel movies... yeah, they do some silly stuff and have clever snarky dialogue, but... they also make you care about the characters. Atomic Robo is a fun read, don't get me wrong... but I don't ever feel like I have any investment in the success or failure of the characters.

... still a thousand times better than the pseudo-philosophical overdramatic tripe we're getting from DC though, so you've got my vote on the replacement anyway.

In unrelated news, shares in Disney rise because of increased investor confidence. (No seriously, they did after since the last cycle of news)

...okay, yeah, I'm with you guys now, DC can suck a fat one.

Tanis:
Why is it DC can do so much good with their cartoons, but suck at the live action stuff?

That statement is constantly repeating through my skull, when I hear stories like this. Why are the live action movies so much harder for them? The Wonder Woman cartoon has a space in my video collection. One would think they'd use the same know how towards the other movies.

Something I've noticed about DC characters in general; alot of them gained powers through strange means. Superman is an alien that gets his powers from the sun, Wonder woman is child created by gods raised by amazons, Green lantern is a intergalatic peacekeeper with a ring that can make anything, Martian manhunter is another alien, Captain Marvel got his powers from a wizard. The Flash was struck by lightning (the first one iirc) And despite all of this they're trying ground all these character in realism. The point of the superhero is the suspense of logic and reality. They don't want to be too fantastic for fear of losing their audience? But what if that's what they want?

On the subject of Mr Jonzz I do admit I only know him from the pages of JLA comics. In those books he was practically the cornerstone of the group. He provided a telepathic link to the rest of the group. When not serving as the communication device his power was on par with Superman in the terms of strength. Add in his ability to phase through object and of course shapeshifting. In a word he's a very overpowered character if not for his weakness to mundane fire (not sure if they did away with that weakness) making him more vulnerable than Superman. (kryptonite being rare iirc)So in truth adding him to the story would make several more problems. The main one I see atm is the fact that Superman is already so powerful it's requires work to confront him with a problem he can't face alone. The only thing that can restrict him are his ethics/morals.

As for the director, I hope he takes the time to research. It's a shame if the series does bomb due to his ignorance of the subject matter.

Soviet Heavy:
Okay.... fuck say what you will about the X-Men movies, at least they have the balls to actually call their characters their actual superhero names. The Marvel movies get around this by doing away with secret identities, so it's just as easy to call Captain America Steve Rogers.

Well, not even that, really.
A lot of Marvel's characters just don't really even have "secret" identities. Everyone knows Cap is Steve Rogers.
That's not just a movie thing.
And in the movies just as much as the comics his associates call him "Cap" or "Steve" more frequently than the formal "Captain America".

The real stupid thing is that that sort of thing is just as true for DC, ESPECIALLY for Martian Manhunter, who they almost ALWAYS call "J'onn"...because that's his name. Martian Manhunter is just a description of him.

The Green Lanterns are often called "John", or "Hal", or "Guy" because half the time there are too many Lanterns around to just call them all "Green Lantern". And even so, individual Lanterns are often referred to as "G.L."

The Justice League often call Wonder Woman "Diana", because that's her actual name, and the public are the ones who refer to her as "Wonder Woman".

etc

etc

Basically, like I said, Goyer is a dumbass.

Sigh, I think I need some kind of manual to determine when it's okay to go apeshit like a fanboy online.

I can't fault someone for not thinking the character is a draw: like Hawkeye in the Avengers he kind of hast o be there based on long term history, but as a character he's left in the background a lot, left for communication purposes or bemoan being the last of his kind (unlike Superman, he was an adult with a wife and child), in the years I read JLA (morrison's run) he didn't come to the forefront much, and efforts to have him hold his own book were short lived. I also can't fault the goofiness of the name, just point out Marvel avoids using the code names as much as possible (it isn't Hawkeye, it's Barton. It's not Iron Man, it's Stark) and that, yeah, a guy with superman level powers plus telepathy being a base beat detective, kind of needs some re-writing to make understandable.

That said, I don't think the statement is made for the right reasons. DC has had it's head up its ass about the stature of its character even since Wizard magazine started making comparisons to the greek pantheon. It would be one thing to say they wanted to make a movie that not only played like the Avengers, but had more substance to it that "can the guy guys beat the evil aliens" instead of people that are almost afraid to be a bit juvenile lest we forget the pantheon and remember the Superfriends. I can't really fault DC for trying to strike as much of their history prior to the 80s as possible (a LOT of crap in there) but Bruce Timm proved time and again you can hold to serious and epic while still holding to a bit of the goofy charm.

JarinArenos:

Scars Unseen:
I still think someone should hire Brian Clevinger(8-bit Theater, Atomic Robo) to give a go at a script. Teamed up with a competent director(that also loves comics), he could write stuff that would rival Whedon's stuff easily.

Clevinger can do wonderful things with dry wit, but I've yet to see anything that makes me think he can handle the drama to balance it. That's the biggest thing about the Marvel movies... yeah, they do some silly stuff and have clever snarky dialogue, but... they also make you care about the characters. Atomic Robo is a fun read, don't get me wrong... but I don't ever feel like I have any investment in the success or failure of the characters.

... still a thousand times better than the pseudo-philosophical overdramatic tripe we're getting from DC though, so you've got my vote on the replacement anyway.

He's done more than just Atomic Robo. He wrote a superhero novel called Nuklear Age, several comics for Marvel(including the Marvel Adventures version of The Infinity Gauntlet), and of course there's 8-bit Theater, which(without spoiling things for those who never read it) shows that Clevinger can definitely look at the long game when it comes to storytelling.

RealRT:
Wait a second, Goyer is in charge of DC Cinematic Universe? Well, now it makes sense why it blows, why the flying fuck does he still get job after Blade 3?

Come on Blade 3 wasn't that terrible, Ron Perlman was pretty fun...wait no that was Blade 2...carry on.

Seriously Goyer should get together with Frank Miller and Garth Ennis...and then seal themselves in a bunker.

They have all done some good work in the past but all that is over now.

endtherapture:
Can you spell "agenda?" Pretty sad if you ask me; at least make a judgement after the films are out instead of trying to smear the films before they've even got off the ground.

David Goyer is not "the films," so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Please be explicit about what agenda you think is in place and how the Escapist profits from pursuing that agenda.

RealRT:
Wait a second, Goyer is in charge of DC Cinematic Universe? Well, now it makes sense why it blows; why the flying fuck does he still get jobs after Blade: Trinity?

In all fairness, given that Wesley Snipes was having some kind of breakdown on set, would only communicate with the director via Post-It note, and refused to be on camera for anything other than a close-up, I can't say how much of that movie's problems are Goyer's fault. Hell, I wonder how much of Goyer's script even made it to the screen after rewrites around whether Wesley Snipes would leave his trailer on a given day. The underlying plot of the movie is still pretty dumb, but hell, I don't know how you get around that when the premise is "vampirism is a virus."

NuclearKangaroo:

id be like making a movie about the teen titans and not include cyborg, again that character gained popularity because of the good use the cartoon made of him

A TT movie wouldn't necessarily need cyborg, or any of the other members of the TT Go team outside of robin. They can always do the usual side-kicks/younger versions of famous heroes team up story, which is the classic TT story in a nutshell anyway. Not saying one is necessarily better than the other, both would be a major challenge to make it work in live action. But the sidekicks idea would probably be easier to catch on if it follows a successful justice league movie.

More on topic, isn't it this guy's job to make crazy comic book stuff like MM work on the big screen? Like seriously, he has no problems working with

a billionaire dressed up in a bat costume
a alien with god-like powers
a amazon with very similar powers
a man who can literally run circles around everyone before they can even blink
a guy with a green ring that lets him do almost anything

but no, a guy from Mars that can make himself look human, THAT is crossing some sort of ridiculousness line. I hope Guardians of the Galaxy becomes a box office hit so this guy can watch as marvel makes a ton of money off a talking raccoon and his best friend the walking/talking tree.

JimB:

endtherapture:
Can you spell "agenda?" Pretty sad if you ask me; at least make a judgement after the films are out instead of trying to smear the films before they've even got off the ground.

David Goyer is not "the films," so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Please be explicit about what agenda you think is in place and how the Escapist profits from pursuing that agenda.

RealRT:
Wait a second, Goyer is in charge of DC Cinematic Universe? Well, now it makes sense why it blows; why the flying fuck does he still get jobs after Blade: Trinity?

In all fairness, given that Wesley Snipes was having some kind of breakdown on set, would only communicate with the director via Post-It note, and refused to be on camera for anything other than a close-up, I can't say how much of that movie's problems are Goyer's fault. Hell, I wonder how much of Goyer's script even made it to the screen after rewrites around whether Wesley Snipes would leave his trailer on a given day. The underlying plot of the movie is still pretty dumb, but hell, I don't know how you get around that when the premise is "vampirism is a virus."

Well here's a fun little idea. Since you reminded me that the movie is called Blade: Trinity (even though I find these kinds of subtitles stupid and needles and they should just number shit), why don't focus on Hannibal King and Abigail Whistler instead? Give them more character? They sure as fuck could use some of that. Maybe he could make Drake insteresting? Or the vampires? Or anything at all? Or at the very least check through the script to see if there are any gigantic plotholes? The sky's the limit.

Tiamattt:

NuclearKangaroo:

id be like making a movie about the teen titans and not include cyborg, again that character gained popularity because of the good use the cartoon made of him

A TT movie wouldn't necessarily need cyborg, or any of the other members of the TT Go team outside of robin. They can always do the usual side-kicks/younger versions of famous heroes team up story, which is the classic TT story in a nutshell anyway. Not saying one is necessarily better than the other, both would be a major challenge to make it work in life action. But the sidekicks idea would probably be easier to catch on if it follows a successful justice league movie.

More on topic, isn't it this guy's job to make crazy comic book stuff like MM work on the big screen? Like seriously, he has no problems working with

a billionaire dressed up in a bat costume
a alien with god-like powers
a amazon with very similar powers
a man who can literally run circles around everyone before they can even blink
a guy with a green ring that lets him do almost anything

but no, a guy from Mars that can make himself look human, THAT is crossing some sort of ridiculousness line. I hope Guardians of the Galaxy becomes a box office hit so this guy can watch as marvel makes a ton of money off a talking raccoon and his best friend the walking/talking tree.

well im not going to pretend im well informed in the matter, not a fan of comics, tough i do appreciate the side products we get from that world, namely games, movies and cartoons

so let me rephrase what i said, a teen titans movie without cyborg would be a huge missed oportunity, a justice league movie without the martian manhunter is also a missed opportunity

Tanis:
Why is it DC can do so much good with their cartoons, but suck at the live action stuff?

I think because they get people that actually respect love and read comics to work on those.

SomeLameStuff:

Well done DC. Well done. Can you guys hire someone who actually LIKES the comics? It's been working out marvellously for Marvel.

This perfectly shows the problem that DC faces, it is ashamed of the material it's trying to make films of.

Marvel EMBRACES the silliness. They allowed for mature plots, but has fun with the material.

DC is trying to make everything "darker, grimmer, and MOAR RELSTOC!" D:< but only is making the characters flatter and less interesting.

Warhammer 40K levels of GRIMDARKNESS do not equal mature story telling. It only makes you seem more childish.

Kumagawa Misogi:
Hey anyone here remember the DC animated universe by Bruce Timm?

They did a Justice League cartoon and the Martian Manhunter was in it. But through all 91 episodes of it, I don't ever remember him ever being called by name the Martian Manhunter by anyone just John.

Am I wrong or not?

So yeah if what is considered one of the best adaptions of the Justice League doesn't use the name Martian Manhunter why the hell would a big budget film.

DCAU was heavily censored. As all DC kids shows.

Death stroke? Now slade. Death can't be mentioned. He also can't have kids because that references sex or where babies come from.

Manhunter? Too violent, references slavery.

Joker being in love with a tranny? Can't put that in there.

Movies don't have that much censorship. Kids shows do. 99% of DC was censored for kids shows. Which is why everyone cries bloody murder that their "childhood" is being destroyed by the comics.

RealRT:
Since you reminded me that the movie is called Blade: Trinity (even though I find these kinds of subtitles stupid and needles and they should just number shit), why don't [they] focus on Hannibal King and Abigail Whistler instead?

I am only guessing, but I'd say the trinity referred to in the title is some kind of weird, clumsy Biblical reference. God the Father is Drake, the father of all vampires; the Son is Blade, messiah born without the sin of vampiric weaknesses; and the Holy Ghost would be Whistler, invisibly guiding Blade through life. It doesn't map very well, of course, but I don't feel bad for assuming David Goyer is not very good at making good comparisons.

I withdraw the possible defense I offered of him, though. I had thought Mr. Goyer was only the screenwriter, not the director of Blade: Trinity as well. In light of that, yeah, the buck pretty much has to stop with him.

Not to be too picky, but Marvel hasn't made billions from Rocket Raccoon...yet.

Hey Goyer, could we have a Wonder Woman movie before you move onto the "goofy" Martian Manhunter? Where the hell is Wonder Woman Goyer? Why does superman and batman get reboots of reboots and tons of cartoons solely about them and wonder woman gets one cheaply made BS movie from 80's. Why is that!? HEY GOYER WHY THE HELL IS THAT!?

I don't read comics, and I haven't gotten around to watching the Justice League animated show, so my only exposure to MM is through the Injustice video game, but even that is enough to know that he's not too goofy, he's totally badass and having him in live action would be awesome.

Like said I don't read comics, but it's even clear to me that these guys shouldn't be making a Justice League movie. If you're gonna try to copy Marvel, you should start by having the guys making the movies embracing the source material instead of shunning it like Marvel does.

What? well shit , I guess that's why the dark knight had the immortal Ra's al Ghul being just a guy and the trilogy being more or less no nonsense but heres the thing, comics are full of goofiness and nonsense and that's great, im wondering why the alien comes to earth and becomes a super hero backstory is allowed for superman yet is too goofy for MM hell I think if goofiness is a problem half of the justice league if not more would be out. Also I feel that while yes Mr Manhunter has a smaller fanbase then supes or batman its still large enough that you cant rewrite the character completely and get away with it.

Ultratwinkie:

Joker being in love with a tranny? Can't put that in there.

...Uh, what? What the hell is this? I have never heard of this, the only relationship I hear about concerning The Joker is him and Harley Quinn, care to elaborate?

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