Natural Selection 2 Development Handed Over to The Community

Natural Selection 2 Development Handed Over to The Community

natural selection 2 gorgeous update

Unknown Worlds has handed the keys for Natural Selection 2 over to the community, so it can focus on the upcoming Subnautica.

Unknown Worlds has done a tremendous job with post-launch support of Natural Selection 2, releasing several free major content patches that most other companies would charge anywhere from $10-$20 for. Unfortunately, its a pretty small team, and with development of the Subnautica, its upcoming open-world underwater exploration and construction game, it simply doesn't have the time to keep up with NS2 updates.

However, rather than simply allow the game to fade into obscurity, Unknown Worlds has handed over the keys to a community dev team -- referring to themselves as NS2CDT -- consisting of 14 Natural Selection 2 players from around the world.

"It means that now with Unknown World's blessing, we as a community can forge patch 266. We can hopefully start to incorporate the best the community has to offer, such as bug fixes and popular features...with many more ideas for the future!" announced an NS2CDT dev in a forum post.

"For the everyday player, they can now rest easy knowing that NS2's future developments will be in the trusted hands of a team of experienced NS2 players just like them, who only wish to see NS2 become bigger and better than ever before! There is potential for greatness, but we will have many hurdles to overcome along the way. While these things take time to implement and grow, we plan on being very open with what we are actively working on. Afterall, it is by the community, for the community!"

In this world of developers and publishers keeping their games under such tight lock-and-key, with user-made mods and maps slowly becoming a thing of the past, it's refreshing to see a developer being so open with its product.

Source: AusGamers

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This is what Hi-Rez should've done with Tribes: Ascend.

I mean, just look at most older shooters, Unreal Tournament, Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, heck, even freaking Call of Duty 4 still has new maps and mods that try to fix the games as much as possible, now with the devs passing the torch to another dedicated dev team to really keep updating the game... that's just beyond awesome.

I disagree that User-Made content is becoming a thing of the past.. I mean, I've never seen as much around as there is nowadays. Looking back, maybe the early 2000's had more Usermade Content than now.. But now definetely has a lot, I'd say more than a few years ago.

This is great news!
If only too dumb to live DICE can see this (and a few other examples) and get it into their thick skulls that modders are more then good enough to handle engines/game development :P .

* EDIT *
@StevenBogos

With all due respect I have to agree with the above poster. There is SO much content right now. From old but still golden and updated mods like Minerva and R&D to projects that dwarf AAA development like this:
http://www.moddb.com/mods/lost-alpha

Which for some strange reason The Escapist NEVER reviewed nor gave attention to on release (though they did for Black Mesa :P )

good for them, i tried to get into the game but i couldnt, it seemed almost like a match made in heaven for me, "hey i like strategy games, i also like FPS, those are my favorite genres, this games combines those two, it could be great!"

and it wasnt, the one thing that threw me off is first person melee, it almost never works, it certainly didnt work here, but most of the alien classes use fucking first person melee

i thing if they had given both factions ranged weapons i would have worked much better, but thats just me

I'm stoked with this development and extremely eager to see what the CDT can bring out after their teething patches of mostly bug fixes.

NuclearKangaroo:
good for them, i tried to get into the game but i couldnt, it seemed almost like a match made in heaven for me, "hey i like strategy games, i also like FPS, those are my favorite genres, this games combines those two, it could be great!"

and it wasnt, the one thing that threw me off is first person melee, it almost never works, it certainly didnt work here, but most of the alien classes use fucking first person melee

i thing if they had given both factions ranged weapons i would have worked much better, but thats just me

Mate as someone coming up onto 500 hours in NS2 biting as a skulk, slashing as a fade, or spiking/biting as a lerk works. It works like all kinds of hell and it's proved to have made one of the best team shooter dynamics I've seen in my years of gaming.

Maybe you didn't have leap and you were being pwned by weapons three armour three jetpacks, maybe you didn't knwo how to play your chosen lifeform upgrades to the situation but seriously please try not to confuse whether a mechanic can work and your ability to play with it.

This is good news for everyone who likes NS2, never got into it myself but happy to see a game live on for the people that play.

I think many developers should do this to keep games alive, as someone who played UT99 for a log long time after 2k4 was out on 100% user made maps 100% user made weapons and custom scripting i know how much life community development can give to a game.

Nowadays i bet most big companies would not do this as they are afraid that the community will do a better job than they did.

OMG, I forget I had this game waiting to be played in my Steam library. Should probably change that.

SupahGamuh:
This is what Hi-Rez should've done with Tribes: Ascend.

I mean, just look at most older shooters, Unreal Tournament, Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, heck, even freaking Call of Duty 4 still has new maps and mods that try to fix the games as much as possible, now with the devs passing the torch to another dedicated dev team to really keep updating the game... that's just beyond awesome.

This is also what EA should have done with Battlefield and all those other games it pulled the rug from under and shit on their communities (even less reason to buy EA).

Good aftermarket support used to be the norm not the exception. I hate to look like the gatekeeper of what people can like but this is why i want to grab those people who defend the Call of Duty model of 10 map packs and shake them until they see some sense. "Well I get a lot of value out of it" is bullshit when these things were done for free for decades in other games. It's a destructive regression. You should not be actively advocating on behalf of people blatantly ripping you off and damaging gaming.

Since 2007 onwards the trend of fucking people over for content has really taken hold. This is never a good thing. The last 5-7 years has been game after game shutting down servers, charging for every single shed of updated content bar fixing game-breaking bugs (sometimes those don't even get fixed and the focus is still put on DLC, I'm looking at you Arkham origins and Battlefield 4. 'AAA' my arse. More like treble shit.) and selling less and less content for more and more money heaping micro-purchases on users at the same time and then support still gets axed.

Mr. Clarinet:
I'm stoked with this development and extremely eager to see what the CDT can bring out after their teething patches of mostly bug fixes.

NuclearKangaroo:
good for them, i tried to get into the game but i couldnt, it seemed almost like a match made in heaven for me, "hey i like strategy games, i also like FPS, those are my favorite genres, this games combines those two, it could be great!"

and it wasnt, the one thing that threw me off is first person melee, it almost never works, it certainly didnt work here, but most of the alien classes use fucking first person melee

i thing if they had given both factions ranged weapons i would have worked much better, but thats just me

Mate as someone coming up onto 500 hours in NS2 biting as a skulk, slashing as a fade, or spiking/biting as a lerk works. It works like all kinds of hell and it's proved to have made one of the best team shooter dynamics I've seen in my years of gaming.

Maybe you didn't have leap and you were being pwned by weapons three armour three jetpacks, maybe you didn't knwo how to play your chosen lifeform upgrades to the situation but seriously please try not to confuse whether a mechanic can work and your ability to play with it.

oh boy again with the elitism

if theres one argument i despise when it comes to defending a game is "mhhnnaaa, the game doesnt suck, you just mad cuz bad"

look, a good game is fun even if you suck at it, i had incredible tons of fun wih TF2 and blacklight retribution, even when i started playing and i was shit at it, same with red orchestra 2 (that is, when it game isnt glitching and the map doesnt suck)

melee is FPS is often disorienting, particulary if the game doesnt give melee weapons atleast some increased range like Left 4 Dead 2 and TF2's demoknight melee weapons

I really feel like this should happen with EVERY game. I mean, every game has at least a core group of really hardcore fans, some more than others. Among that group are bound to be some skilled people, so give them the source code once you're done with it and label anything they do with the game past that point non-canon so that you can still do sequels. Easiest thing in the world, builds goodwill, and keeps your games alive, WHY NOT?!

Did they ever fix the netcode? I really liked this game when it first came out, but connecting to servers was frequently a struggle for me; servers would show up in the browser, but either I'd fail to actually connect, or I'd get in and have 999+ ping.

P.S. Thanks

YES! The developers of Natural Selection 2 were irritating me more and more with every release to the point where I stopped playing. They kept tailoring their game more and more to the professional crowd, forcing the more casual players to adapt to professional players' standards. I mean, the nerf to where the comm gets NO starting res and anyone that jumps in the chair gets a 1 minutes res penalty is absolutely infuriating. Yes, it makes sense in the professional crowd, but in the non-serious scene not every player is competent and there are times where everyone needs to be on the field to help. I liked being a gorge comm so I could help build things, but now I have to waste team res to go gorge. And when it came to building a new hive I would drop the hive, drifter and shift, then I would go gorge and build it personally while everyone else fights. Now I sit in the chair and watch as the drifter alone has to build it half as fast, or ask one of my players to back off from combat to build the hive. Again, it makes sense in the professional crowd, but not every player is good

I can't say whether or not it's going to be an improvement, though. I mean, I've worked on a source mod for 5 years and I've met a lot of amateur devs and I know how arrogant and selfish they can be. The people who get the reins might just be as inclined to make NS2 a professional gaming scene and the current dev team. Either way, it would be nice to see if this improves the casual gaming experience, keeps the status quo, or if the game just dies away.

I mean, Zombie Panic: Source was one of the top mods for several years and then the original dev team left and went on to make Contagion, and left Zombie Panic: Source to another group, mainly comprised of playtesters that decided to take up character modeling and map designing. I thought this would be an improvement, but soon after, ZPS sunk faster than the Titanic.

However, rather than simply allow the game to fade into obscurity

Ha. Too late. last time I tried to play NS2 it was a goddamn ghost town and the very small number of near full servers I could find were packed with super hardcore 500+ hours invested MLGproskillz nutters that I could in no way compete with. For as much as the NS2 concept intrigued me, in the end all it did was remind me why MP focused indie titles are an automatic no buy for me. That said I wish this new team the best of luck, and I hope they can do justice to the small but dedicated player base.

Hm. Not sure how I feel about this. Picked the game up on sale a while ago and just now started playing it. Turns out my old computer couldn't handle it.

Go figure that I suck at it.

Maybe now with updates from people that actually play and not just watch professional games, marines will get something to give them a chance.

Or make gorge tunnels not available at the very start. That would also be appreciated.

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:
I'm stoked with this development and extremely eager to see what the CDT can bring out after their teething patches of mostly bug fixes.

NuclearKangaroo:
good for them, i tried to get into the game but i couldnt, it seemed almost like a match made in heaven for me, "hey i like strategy games, i also like FPS, those are my favorite genres, this games combines those two, it could be great!"

and it wasnt, the one thing that threw me off is first person melee, it almost never works, it certainly didnt work here, but most of the alien classes use fucking first person melee

i thing if they had given both factions ranged weapons i would have worked much better, but thats just me

Mate as someone coming up onto 500 hours in NS2 biting as a skulk, slashing as a fade, or spiking/biting as a lerk works. It works like all kinds of hell and it's proved to have made one of the best team shooter dynamics I've seen in my years of gaming.

Maybe you didn't have leap and you were being pwned by weapons three armour three jetpacks, maybe you didn't knwo how to play your chosen lifeform upgrades to the situation but seriously please try not to confuse whether a mechanic can work and your ability to play with it.

oh boy again with the elitism

if theres one argument i despise when it comes to defending a game is "mhhnnaaa, the game doesnt suck, you just mad cuz bad"

look, a good game is fun even if you suck at it, i had incredible tons of fun wih TF2 and blacklight retribution, even when i started playing and i was shit at it, same with red orchestra 2 (that is, when it game isnt glitching and the map doesnt suck)

melee is FPS is often disorienting, particulary if the game doesnt give melee weapons atleast some increased range like Left 4 Dead 2 and TF2's demoknight melee weapons

How many hours do you have in the game?

CrossLOPER:

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:
I'm stoked with this development and extremely eager to see what the CDT can bring out after their teething patches of mostly bug fixes.

Mate as someone coming up onto 500 hours in NS2 biting as a skulk, slashing as a fade, or spiking/biting as a lerk works. It works like all kinds of hell and it's proved to have made one of the best team shooter dynamics I've seen in my years of gaming.

Maybe you didn't have leap and you were being pwned by weapons three armour three jetpacks, maybe you didn't knwo how to play your chosen lifeform upgrades to the situation but seriously please try not to confuse whether a mechanic can work and your ability to play with it.

oh boy again with the elitism

if theres one argument i despise when it comes to defending a game is "mhhnnaaa, the game doesnt suck, you just mad cuz bad"

look, a good game is fun even if you suck at it, i had incredible tons of fun wih TF2 and blacklight retribution, even when i started playing and i was shit at it, same with red orchestra 2 (that is, when it game isnt glitching and the map doesnt suck)

melee is FPS is often disorienting, particulary if the game doesnt give melee weapons atleast some increased range like Left 4 Dead 2 and TF2's demoknight melee weapons

How many hours do you have in the game?

you can check my steam profile, 2 hours, RO2, TF2 and BLR all took much less time to suck me in

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:
I'm stoked with this development and extremely eager to see what the CDT can bring out after their teething patches of mostly bug fixes.

NuclearKangaroo:
good for them, i tried to get into the game but i couldnt, it seemed almost like a match made in heaven for me, "hey i like strategy games, i also like FPS, those are my favorite genres, this games combines those two, it could be great!"

and it wasnt, the one thing that threw me off is first person melee, it almost never works, it certainly didnt work here, but most of the alien classes use fucking first person melee

i thing if they had given both factions ranged weapons i would have worked much better, but thats just me

Mate as someone coming up onto 500 hours in NS2 biting as a skulk, slashing as a fade, or spiking/biting as a lerk works. It works like all kinds of hell and it's proved to have made one of the best team shooter dynamics I've seen in my years of gaming.

Maybe you didn't have leap and you were being pwned by weapons three armour three jetpacks, maybe you didn't knwo how to play your chosen lifeform upgrades to the situation but seriously please try not to confuse whether a mechanic can work and your ability to play with it.

oh boy again with the elitism

if theres one argument i despise when it comes to defending a game is "mhhnnaaa, the game doesnt suck, you just mad cuz bad"

look, a good game is fun even if you suck at it, i had incredible tons of fun wih TF2 and blacklight retribution, even when i started playing and i was shit at it, same with red orchestra 2 (that is, when it game isnt glitching and the map doesnt suck)

melee is FPS is often disorienting, particulary if the game doesnt give melee weapons atleast some increased range like Left 4 Dead 2 and TF2's demoknight melee weapons

Hrm elitism.
Funny, I'm just trying to outline the position I'm coming from by saying just how I would presumably be more familiar with the game mechanics than you/
See this game is deep. 2 hours? 2 hours is barely scratching any surface. It's like putting 2 hours into Dota 2 and saying that you think the deny mechanic doesn't work.
I find it telling that to paint summarise me you had to reduce it to "hurrrdurr mad cos bad".
Not one of the games you mentioned as a counterbalance features a mechanic where a third party buys upgrades that affect the power of the entire team at the factor that NS2 does. That's where your RTS comparison fails. NS2 sits closer to being a MOBA than an rts/fps hybrid.
It has a MOBA's learning curve, it follows a MOBA experience. Situations will steam roll and yes the game can be disorienting. But to say that the first person melee mechanic does not work is plainly a fallacious claim to make once you've experienced either your own skill in wielding that mech. or playing someone that can.

"a good game is fun even if you suck at it" Sure, they can also be incredibly challenging experiences. Try to think back to your first MOBA if you have played. I think imagining that moment you also have to consider whether you had fun very frequently or it was someone you found fun in after mastering a mechanic/hero/etc. after a very period of frustration.
I don't see this as being a typical "lol pleb gamer scrub n00bzors" response at all, in fact I'm making not a small amount of tries to accommodate your position.
But the fact of the matter is that first person melee does in fact work in that game. I know because I play Aliens more than marines, I know because I play and have my ass handed to me by far superior players while shooting at them with rifles and shotguns.
What I also know is that the typical response of a brand new skulk is to act like a bitey missile where they run Right For the marines on the ground, not jumping off buildings, not running on walls, basically not using any of the built in mechanics to allow yourself extra speed or to say hold left shift to dampen pretty much all noise you can make to ambush players. Its typically these players who end up in your position, frustrated and drained over playing a default class that feels yes, outclassed And Outgunned.
Why?
Because they're not playing their classes strengths. Essentially they're trying to play a melee Boston Basher Scout against a Nastacha Heavy, they're going sustained damage Yi and only diving on the Tank, they're using the Fan of War against a Half-Zatoichi Demo-Knight, they're trying to shoot a sniper with a sub-machine gun outside of their own falloff range and calling the gun a bad mechanic.

major_chaos:

However, rather than simply allow the game to fade into obscurity

Ha. Too late. last time I tried to play NS2 it was a goddamn ghost town and the very small number of near full servers I could find were packed with super hardcore 500+ hours invested MLGproskillz nutters that I could in no way compete with. For as much as the NS2 concept intrigued me, in the end all it did was remind me why MP focused indie titles are an automatic no buy for me. That said I wish this new team the best of luck, and I hope they can do justice to the small but dedicated player base.

You might want to try playing again in the weeks after a big sale.
One month ago it was in the humble bundle, then it was on sale on the humble store. So for the next 2-3 months there'll be a way more even mix of players. But I mean the best way to play better is to play more challenging players. Try green servers like Hyperion, or LuckyF*ckers or watch the youtube channel ItsSuperEffective as well.
I can't speak for the US but in the Aus region where the player base is waaaay smaller the best players don't pub at all because they do get frustrated so what you usually see is players who (especially in sales weeks) are kinda used to accommodating newbies.
If you or anyone else was going to play NS2 for your first times I'd encourage you to set up a microphone or at the very least type "Hey guys I'm super new can someone show me the ropes" and at least one player there should tell you the basics because hey we've ALL been there man.

Mr. Clarinet:

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:
I'm stoked with this development and extremely eager to see what the CDT can bring out after their teething patches of mostly bug fixes.

Mate as someone coming up onto 500 hours in NS2 biting as a skulk, slashing as a fade, or spiking/biting as a lerk works. It works like all kinds of hell and it's proved to have made one of the best team shooter dynamics I've seen in my years of gaming.

Maybe you didn't have leap and you were being pwned by weapons three armour three jetpacks, maybe you didn't knwo how to play your chosen lifeform upgrades to the situation but seriously please try not to confuse whether a mechanic can work and your ability to play with it.

oh boy again with the elitism

if theres one argument i despise when it comes to defending a game is "mhhnnaaa, the game doesnt suck, you just mad cuz bad"

look, a good game is fun even if you suck at it, i had incredible tons of fun wih TF2 and blacklight retribution, even when i started playing and i was shit at it, same with red orchestra 2 (that is, when it game isnt glitching and the map doesnt suck)

melee is FPS is often disorienting, particulary if the game doesnt give melee weapons atleast some increased range like Left 4 Dead 2 and TF2's demoknight melee weapons

Hrm elitism.
See this game is deep. 2 hours? 2 hours is barely scratching any surface. It's like putting 2 hours into Dota 2 and saying that you think the deny mechanic doesn't work.
I find it telling that to paint summarise me you had to reduce it to "hurrrdurr mad cos bad".
Not one of the games you mentioned as a counterbalance features a mechanic where a third party buys upgrades that affect the power of the entire team at the factor that NS2 does. That's where your RTS comparison fails. NS2 sits colser to being a MOBA than an rts/fps hybrid. Situations will steam roll and yes the game can be disorienting. But to say that the first person melee mechanic does not work is plainly a fallacious claim to make once you've experienced either your own skill in wielding that mech. or playing someone that can.

"a good game is fun even if you suck at it" Sure, they can also be incredibly challenging experiences. Try to think back to your first MOBA if you have played. I think imagining that moment you also have to consider whether you had fun very frequently or it was someone you found fun in after mastering a mechanic/hero/etc. after a very period of frustration.
I don't see this as being a typical "lol pleb gamer scrub n00bzors" response at all, in fact I'm making not a small amount of tries to accommodate your position.
But the fact of the matter is that first person melee does in fact work in that game. I know because I play Aliens more than marines, I know because I play and have my ass handed to me by far superior players while shooting at them with rifles and shotguns.
What I also know is that the typical response of a brand new skulk is to act like a bitey missile where they run Right For the marines on the ground, not jumping off buildings, not running on walls, basically not using any of the built in mechanics to allow yourself extra speed or to say hold left shift to dampen pretty much all noise you can make to ambush players. Its typically these players who end up in your position, frustrated and drained over playing a default class that feels yes, outclassed And Outgunned.
Why?
Because they're not playing their classes strengths. Essentially they're trying to play a melee Boston Basher Scout against a Nastacha Heavy, they're going sustained damage Yi and only diving on the Tank, they're using the Fan of War against a Half-Zatoichi Demo-Knight, they're trying to shoot a sniper with a sub-machine gun outside of their own falloff range and calling the gun a bad mechanic.

ive played games for a long time i freaking know how they work, personally i find the "mad cuz bad" (because thats the bottom of this argument) excuse pathetic, and im talking in general here, i hate it when its used on any game

ive played all sorts of games in my life, Company of Heroes, Men of War, Starcraft, Age of Wonders (all 3 of the first games), new XCOM, old XCOM, etc, im no stranger to complex games, but i dont give much of a chance to games that arent engaging, that arent immediately fun, that dont give you a glimpse of what you can accomplish while playing em. now that you mention it, dota 2 for instance, in my opinion, its garbage, i gave it 6 hours and the game is fucking impenetrable, full of contrivances and arbitrary rules, but i admit i seem to be in the minority

and thats the thing, this is all my opinion, which i believe it was clear enough when my original post included words such as "i tried to get into the game but i couldnt" and "but thats just me"

i didnt have a problem with the commander in NS2, i didnt have a problem with the upgrades in NS2, i didnt have a problem with any of the RTS elements from what i played of NS2, i had a problem with the melee combat in NS2, i found it frustrating, boring and unengaging, and not particulary well suited for a fairly high ping connection like mine

persoanlly i think MOBAs are pretty much "my first RTS" and i quickly lost interest in the genre tough i did enjoy LoL quite a bit, sucking at it never stopped me from enjoying it

i also used ambush tactics as the skulk, even before buying it i followed the game quite a bit because the concept intrigued me, and i was aware of the skulk's ability to climb up walls, and no, it didnt solve the problem, because the moment you drop down to attack you must keep biting and jumping in order to avoid enemy fire, is frustrating and disorienting

you are making way too many assumptions about how i played

also all this talk about MOBAs reminded me of SMNC, which i also played, it was a MOBA and a shooter, so there you go, if NS2 is closer to a MOBA, then ive played MOBA shooters before too, still found NS2 underwhelming

Mr. Clarinet:

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:
I'm stoked with this development and extremely eager to see what the CDT can bring out after their teething patches of mostly bug fixes.

Mate as someone coming up onto 500 hours in NS2 biting as a skulk, slashing as a fade, or spiking/biting as a lerk works. It works like all kinds of hell and it's proved to have made one of the best team shooter dynamics I've seen in my years of gaming.

Maybe you didn't have leap and you were being pwned by weapons three armour three jetpacks, maybe you didn't knwo how to play your chosen lifeform upgrades to the situation but seriously please try not to confuse whether a mechanic can work and your ability to play with it.

oh boy again with the elitism

if theres one argument i despise when it comes to defending a game is "mhhnnaaa, the game doesnt suck, you just mad cuz bad"

look, a good game is fun even if you suck at it, i had incredible tons of fun wih TF2 and blacklight retribution, even when i started playing and i was shit at it, same with red orchestra 2 (that is, when it game isnt glitching and the map doesnt suck)

melee is FPS is often disorienting, particulary if the game doesnt give melee weapons atleast some increased range like Left 4 Dead 2 and TF2's demoknight melee weapons

Hrm elitism.
Funny, I'm just trying to outline the position I'm coming from by saying just how I would presumably be more familiar with the game mechanics than you/
See this game is deep. 2 hours? 2 hours is barely scratching any surface. It's like putting 2 hours into Dota 2 and saying that you think the deny mechanic doesn't work.
I find it telling that to paint summarise me you had to reduce it to "hurrrdurr mad cos bad".
Not one of the games you mentioned as a counterbalance features a mechanic where a third party buys upgrades that affect the power of the entire team at the factor that NS2 does. That's where your RTS comparison fails. NS2 sits closer to being a MOBA than an rts/fps hybrid.
It has a MOBA's learning curve, it follows a MOBA experience. Situations will steam roll and yes the game can be disorienting. But to say that the first person melee mechanic does not work is plainly a fallacious claim to make once you've experienced either your own skill in wielding that mech. or playing someone that can.

"a good game is fun even if you suck at it" Sure, they can also be incredibly challenging experiences. Try to think back to your first MOBA if you have played. I think imagining that moment you also have to consider whether you had fun very frequently or it was someone you found fun in after mastering a mechanic/hero/etc. after a very period of frustration.
I don't see this as being a typical "lol pleb gamer scrub n00bzors" response at all, in fact I'm making not a small amount of tries to accommodate your position.
But the fact of the matter is that first person melee does in fact work in that game. I know because I play Aliens more than marines, I know because I play and have my ass handed to me by far superior players while shooting at them with rifles and shotguns.
What I also know is that the typical response of a brand new skulk is to act like a bitey missile where they run Right For the marines on the ground, not jumping off buildings, not running on walls, basically not using any of the built in mechanics to allow yourself extra speed or to say hold left shift to dampen pretty much all noise you can make to ambush players. Its typically these players who end up in your position, frustrated and drained over playing a default class that feels yes, outclassed And Outgunned.
Why?
Because they're not playing their classes strengths. Essentially they're trying to play a melee Boston Basher Scout against a Nastacha Heavy, they're going sustained damage Yi and only diving on the Tank, they're using the Fan of War against a Half-Zatoichi Demo-Knight, they're trying to shoot a sniper with a sub-machine gun outside of their own falloff range and calling the gun a bad mechanic.

All your problems are stemming from not learning the game, I mean hell 2 hours? If your a melee skulk you cant just run straight at the enemy, of course they're going to gun you down in 2 seconds. You're ignorant of the strengths of the melee classes, i.e. flanking through vents, using their superior stealth and speed.

NuclearKangaroo:
ive played games for a long time i freaking know how they work, personally i find the "mad cuz bad" (because thats the bottom of this argument) excuse pathetic, and im talking in general here, i hate it when its used on any game

ive played all sorts of games in my life, Company of Heroes, Men of War, Starcraft, Age of Wonders (all 3 of the first games), new XCOM, old XCOM, etc, im no stranger to complex games, but i dont give much of a chance to games that arent engaging, that arent immediately fun, that dont give you a glimpse of what you can accomplish while playing em. now that you mention it, dota 2 for instance, in my opinion, its garbage, i gave it 6 hours and the game is fucking impenetrable, full of contrivances and arbitrary rules, but i admit i seem to be in the minority

and thats the thing, this is all my opinion, which i believe it was clear enough when my original post included words such as "i tried to get into the game but i couldnt" and "but thats just me"

i didnt have a problem with the commander in NS2, i didnt have a problem with the upgrades in NS2, i didnt have a problem with any of the RTS elements from what i played of NS2, i had a problem with the melee combat in NS2, i found it frustrating, boring and unengaging, and not particulary suited for a fairly high ping connection like mine

persoanlly i think MOBAs are pretty much "my first RTS" and i quickly lost interest in the genre tough i did enjoy LoL quite a bit, sucking at it never stopped me from enjoying it

i also used ambush tactics as the skulk, even before buying it i followed the game quite a bit because the concept intrigued me, and i was aware of the skulk's ability to climb up walls, and no, it didnt solve the problem, because the moment you drop down to attack you must keep biting and jumping in order to avoid enemy fire, is frustrating and disorienting

you are making way too many assumptions about how i played

(because thats the bottom of this argument)
No the bottom of this argument is you having a failure to connect with a mechanic subjectively and (what seems to be the case from my point of view) going on to say that the mechanic objectively does not work.

Case in point "it certainly didnt work here" =/= "Boy gee whizz I personally found it frustrating but I noticed that there's like this whole scene around the game that kinda suggests that it does work in at least some way, too bad it didn't work for me"

You can repeat the words "IN MY OPINON" as much as you want but your opinion here still includes the premise that the mech is fundamentally wrong. That is the only thing I am taking issue with.

Also too many assumptions? What I wrote is essentially the basic checklist of common new player mistakes, something I decided to apply to this conversation given the lack of information you supplied. When people trouble shoot they don't run through the more esoteric methods of fixing a problem they start with the very basics and work up. I'm sorry I hurt your ego by suggesting that you made mistakes that other new players are very prone to making.

Ben Hook:

All your problems are stemming from not learning the game, I mean hell 2 hours? If your a melee skulk you cant just run straight at the enemy, of course they're going to gun you down in 2 seconds. You're ignorant of the strengths of the melee classes, i.e. flanking through vents, using their superior stealth and speed.

knowing nothing about anything didnt stop me from enjoying games before, and thats Mr. Clarinet putting words in my mouth, i used vents and shit and also ambushed and climbed onto walls

and guess what, IN MY OPINION, that didnt stop the melee in the game from sucking, melee in first person is often disorienting, and it definitively was disorienting in NS2, when most of the aliens rely on that, it can turn the game into a miserable experience

good games, IN MY OPINION, dont rely on the player writing a graduate thesis about em before he/she can enjoy em, good games, IN MY OPINION, show players how to play the games and the posibilities of the game to the player via gameplay, or by letting them experiment to their leisure, or by providing a robust tutorial that can provide all the basics they need to enjoy the game

played the tutorial, played a few matches, it wasnt fun, the first person melee was frustrating, i quit

Mr. Clarinet:

NuclearKangaroo:
ive played games for a long time i freaking know how they work, personally i find the "mad cuz bad" (because thats the bottom of this argument) excuse pathetic, and im talking in general here, i hate it when its used on any game

ive played all sorts of games in my life, Company of Heroes, Men of War, Starcraft, Age of Wonders (all 3 of the first games), new XCOM, old XCOM, etc, im no stranger to complex games, but i dont give much of a chance to games that arent engaging, that arent immediately fun, that dont give you a glimpse of what you can accomplish while playing em. now that you mention it, dota 2 for instance, in my opinion, its garbage, i gave it 6 hours and the game is fucking impenetrable, full of contrivances and arbitrary rules, but i admit i seem to be in the minority

and thats the thing, this is all my opinion, which i believe it was clear enough when my original post included words such as "i tried to get into the game but i couldnt" and "but thats just me"

i didnt have a problem with the commander in NS2, i didnt have a problem with the upgrades in NS2, i didnt have a problem with any of the RTS elements from what i played of NS2, i had a problem with the melee combat in NS2, i found it frustrating, boring and unengaging, and not particulary suited for a fairly high ping connection like mine

persoanlly i think MOBAs are pretty much "my first RTS" and i quickly lost interest in the genre tough i did enjoy LoL quite a bit, sucking at it never stopped me from enjoying it

i also used ambush tactics as the skulk, even before buying it i followed the game quite a bit because the concept intrigued me, and i was aware of the skulk's ability to climb up walls, and no, it didnt solve the problem, because the moment you drop down to attack you must keep biting and jumping in order to avoid enemy fire, is frustrating and disorienting

you are making way too many assumptions about how i played

(because thats the bottom of this argument)
No the bottom of this argument is you having a failure to connect with a mechanic subjectively and (what seems to be the case from my point of view) going on to say that the mechanic objectively does not work.

Also too many assumptions? What I wrote is essentially the basic checklist of common new player mistakes, something I decided to apply to this conversation given the lack of information you supplied. When people trouble shoot they don't run through the more esoteric methods of fixing a problem they start with the very basics and work up. I'm sorry I hurt your ego by suggesting that you made mistakes that other new players are very prone to making.

this all started with you telling me i didnt know to play, so yeah thats the bottom of the argument, i know to to play, i played the tutorial i had watched videos of the game, i had the basic ideas behind the strategies needed in the game, if thats not enough to enjoy a game, the game isnt worth my time

my problem is that you dont seem to be able to fathom that some people, DONT-LIKE-NATURAL-SELECTION-2

i didnt like natural selection 2, i found the first person melee boring and disorienting

you like it, fine, stop assuming that if the game is unappealing it must be the player's fault

the game failed to appeal someone, just deal with it, it happens, i got my impression, i might give the game another chance in the future but dont count on it

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:

NuclearKangaroo:
ive played games for a long time i freaking know how they work, personally i find the "mad cuz bad" (because thats the bottom of this argument) excuse pathetic, and im talking in general here, i hate it when its used on any game

ive played all sorts of games in my life, Company of Heroes, Men of War, Starcraft, Age of Wonders (all 3 of the first games), new XCOM, old XCOM, etc, im no stranger to complex games, but i dont give much of a chance to games that arent engaging, that arent immediately fun, that dont give you a glimpse of what you can accomplish while playing em. now that you mention it, dota 2 for instance, in my opinion, its garbage, i gave it 6 hours and the game is fucking impenetrable, full of contrivances and arbitrary rules, but i admit i seem to be in the minority

and thats the thing, this is all my opinion, which i believe it was clear enough when my original post included words such as "i tried to get into the game but i couldnt" and "but thats just me"

i didnt have a problem with the commander in NS2, i didnt have a problem with the upgrades in NS2, i didnt have a problem with any of the RTS elements from what i played of NS2, i had a problem with the melee combat in NS2, i found it frustrating, boring and unengaging, and not particulary suited for a fairly high ping connection like mine

persoanlly i think MOBAs are pretty much "my first RTS" and i quickly lost interest in the genre tough i did enjoy LoL quite a bit, sucking at it never stopped me from enjoying it

i also used ambush tactics as the skulk, even before buying it i followed the game quite a bit because the concept intrigued me, and i was aware of the skulk's ability to climb up walls, and no, it didnt solve the problem, because the moment you drop down to attack you must keep biting and jumping in order to avoid enemy fire, is frustrating and disorienting

you are making way too many assumptions about how i played

(because thats the bottom of this argument)
No the bottom of this argument is you having a failure to connect with a mechanic subjectively and (what seems to be the case from my point of view) going on to say that the mechanic objectively does not work.

Also too many assumptions? What I wrote is essentially the basic checklist of common new player mistakes, something I decided to apply to this conversation given the lack of information you supplied. When people trouble shoot they don't run through the more esoteric methods of fixing a problem they start with the very basics and work up. I'm sorry I hurt your ego by suggesting that you made mistakes that other new players are very prone to making.

this all started with you telling me i didnt know to play, so yeah thats the bottom of the argument, i know to to play, i played the tutorial i had watched videos of the game, i had the basic ideas behind the strategies needed in the game, if thats not enough to enjoy a game, the game isnt worth my time

my problem is that you dont seem to be able to fathom that some people, DONT-LIKE-NATURAL-SELECTION-2

i didnt like natural selection 2, i found the first person melee boring and disorienting

you like it, fine, stop assuming that if the game is unappealing it must be the player's fault

the game failed to appeal someone, just deal with it, it happens, i got my impression, i might give the game another chance in the future but dont count on it

Mate my only reason to reply to you was this sentence here "it almost never works, it certainly didnt work here"

Now take that in, and reprocess what I just told you before.

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:
I'm stoked with this development and extremely eager to see what the CDT can bring out after their teething patches of mostly bug fixes.

NuclearKangaroo:
good for them, i tried to get into the game but i couldnt, it seemed almost like a match made in heaven for me, "hey i like strategy games, i also like FPS, those are my favorite genres, this games combines those two, it could be great!"

and it wasnt, the one thing that threw me off is first person melee, it almost never works, it certainly didnt work here, but most of the alien classes use fucking first person melee

i thing if they had given both factions ranged weapons i would have worked much better, but thats just me

Mate as someone coming up onto 500 hours in NS2 biting as a skulk, slashing as a fade, or spiking/biting as a lerk works. It works like all kinds of hell and it's proved to have made one of the best team shooter dynamics I've seen in my years of gaming.

Maybe you didn't have leap and you were being pwned by weapons three armour three jetpacks, maybe you didn't knwo how to play your chosen lifeform upgrades to the situation but seriously please try not to confuse whether a mechanic can work and your ability to play with it.

oh boy again with the elitism

if theres one argument i despise when it comes to defending a game is "mhhnnaaa, the game doesnt suck, you just mad cuz bad"

look, a good game is fun even if you suck at it, i had incredible tons of fun wih TF2 and blacklight retribution, even when i started playing and i was shit at it, same with red orchestra 2 (that is, when it game isnt glitching and the map doesnt suck)

melee is FPS is often disorienting, particulary if the game doesnt give melee weapons atleast some increased range like Left 4 Dead 2 and TF2's demoknight melee weapons

I am relatively bad at TF2 but do not like playing TF2. Does that meand that TF2 is not exactly a good game?

Your arguement, people, is completely impossible. See, this is subjective.

I LOVED playing STALKER back when I was not a memetic badass at the game. I still love it.
I never was good at TF2. But recently I am also not having fun with it.
My fun on counter strike depended on how the team worked together
My from World of Tanks depends on whether I did better then EVERYONE else in the battle or not :P :P...

NuclearKangaroo:

CrossLOPER:

NuclearKangaroo:

oh boy again with the elitism

if theres one argument i despise when it comes to defending a game is "mhhnnaaa, the game doesnt suck, you just mad cuz bad"

look, a good game is fun even if you suck at it, i had incredible tons of fun wih TF2 and blacklight retribution, even when i started playing and i was shit at it, same with red orchestra 2 (that is, when it game isnt glitching and the map doesnt suck)

melee is FPS is often disorienting, particulary if the game doesnt give melee weapons atleast some increased range like Left 4 Dead 2 and TF2's demoknight melee weapons

How many hours do you have in the game?

you can check my steam profile, 2 hours, RO2, TF2 and BLR all took much less time to suck me in

NS2 is a totally different game. 2 hours is not nearly enough to learn how to play. I played the original as much as I could when I was in Uni, and it took me weeks to figure out how not to die immediately with the Skulk. You simply did not dedicate enough time to the game. I'm sorry if this offends you.

CrossLOPER:

NS2 is a totally different game. 2 hours is not nearly enough to learn how to play. I played the original as much as I could when I was in Uni, and it took me weeks to figure out how not to die immediately with the Skulk. You simply did not dedicate enough time to the game. I'm sorry if this offends you.

But if a game isn't fun to them, why would anyone want to learn how to play? I've played two thousand hours of LoL and was terrible at first, but the game was still fun then. Natural Selection 2 wasn't fun for me and the online experience was terrible, I died without any warning or chance to succeed. I could elect to spend several hundred hours to it, but why would I?

Just because someone doesn't find a game worth wasting their life on to the same degree doesn't invalidate their opinions. If a game is worth it and enjoyable, people will struggle through the hours it takes to learn. I don't doubt this is an uncommon feeling when NS2's popularity is considered.

Mr. Clarinet:

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:

(because thats the bottom of this argument)
No the bottom of this argument is you having a failure to connect with a mechanic subjectively and (what seems to be the case from my point of view) going on to say that the mechanic objectively does not work.

Also too many assumptions? What I wrote is essentially the basic checklist of common new player mistakes, something I decided to apply to this conversation given the lack of information you supplied. When people trouble shoot they don't run through the more esoteric methods of fixing a problem they start with the very basics and work up. I'm sorry I hurt your ego by suggesting that you made mistakes that other new players are very prone to making.

this all started with you telling me i didnt know to play, so yeah thats the bottom of the argument, i know to to play, i played the tutorial i had watched videos of the game, i had the basic ideas behind the strategies needed in the game, if thats not enough to enjoy a game, the game isnt worth my time

my problem is that you dont seem to be able to fathom that some people, DONT-LIKE-NATURAL-SELECTION-2

i didnt like natural selection 2, i found the first person melee boring and disorienting

you like it, fine, stop assuming that if the game is unappealing it must be the player's fault

the game failed to appeal someone, just deal with it, it happens, i got my impression, i might give the game another chance in the future but dont count on it

Mate my only reason to reply to you was this sentence here "it almost never works, it certainly didnt work here"

Now take that in, and reprocess what I just told you before.

and in my opinion it didnt work, get it now?

Charcharo:

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:
I'm stoked with this development and extremely eager to see what the CDT can bring out after their teething patches of mostly bug fixes.

Mate as someone coming up onto 500 hours in NS2 biting as a skulk, slashing as a fade, or spiking/biting as a lerk works. It works like all kinds of hell and it's proved to have made one of the best team shooter dynamics I've seen in my years of gaming.

Maybe you didn't have leap and you were being pwned by weapons three armour three jetpacks, maybe you didn't knwo how to play your chosen lifeform upgrades to the situation but seriously please try not to confuse whether a mechanic can work and your ability to play with it.

oh boy again with the elitism

if theres one argument i despise when it comes to defending a game is "mhhnnaaa, the game doesnt suck, you just mad cuz bad"

look, a good game is fun even if you suck at it, i had incredible tons of fun wih TF2 and blacklight retribution, even when i started playing and i was shit at it, same with red orchestra 2 (that is, when it game isnt glitching and the map doesnt suck)

melee is FPS is often disorienting, particulary if the game doesnt give melee weapons atleast some increased range like Left 4 Dead 2 and TF2's demoknight melee weapons

I am relatively bad at TF2 but do not like playing TF2. Does that meand that TF2 is not exactly a good game?

Your arguement, people, is completely impossible. See, this is subjective.

I LOVED playing STALKER back when I was not a memetic badass at the game. I still love it.
I never was good at TF2. But recently I am also not having fun with it.
My fun on counter strike depended on how the team worked together
My from World of Tanks depends on whether I did better then EVERYONE else in the battle or not :P :P...

is probably not a good game for you, thats the end of the story

you know, different people, different tastes, a concept Mr. Clarinet doesnt seem to be able to grasp

CrossLOPER:

NuclearKangaroo:

CrossLOPER:

How many hours do you have in the game?

you can check my steam profile, 2 hours, RO2, TF2 and BLR all took much less time to suck me in

NS2 is a totally different game. 2 hours is not nearly enough to learn how to play. I played the original as much as I could when I was in Uni, and it took me weeks to figure out how not to die immediately with the Skulk. You simply did not dedicate enough time to the game. I'm sorry if this offends you.

no it doesnt offend me, a game like that is in my opinion not worth my time, i play games to have fun, not to have a second job

thats is IF NS2 truthly takes "weeks" as you say for the melee in the game to not feel terrible

it mario took weeks for the jumping to feel good believe me the series wouldnt be so great

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:

NuclearKangaroo:

this all started with you telling me i didnt know to play, so yeah thats the bottom of the argument, i know to to play, i played the tutorial i had watched videos of the game, i had the basic ideas behind the strategies needed in the game, if thats not enough to enjoy a game, the game isnt worth my time

my problem is that you dont seem to be able to fathom that some people, DONT-LIKE-NATURAL-SELECTION-2

i didnt like natural selection 2, i found the first person melee boring and disorienting

you like it, fine, stop assuming that if the game is unappealing it must be the player's fault

the game failed to appeal someone, just deal with it, it happens, i got my impression, i might give the game another chance in the future but dont count on it

Mate my only reason to reply to you was this sentence here "it almost never works, it certainly didnt work here"

Now take that in, and reprocess what I just told you before.

and in my opinion it didnt work, get it now?

Charcharo:

NuclearKangaroo:

oh boy again with the elitism

if theres one argument i despise when it comes to defending a game is "mhhnnaaa, the game doesnt suck, you just mad cuz bad"

look, a good game is fun even if you suck at it, i had incredible tons of fun wih TF2 and blacklight retribution, even when i started playing and i was shit at it, same with red orchestra 2 (that is, when it game isnt glitching and the map doesnt suck)

melee is FPS is often disorienting, particulary if the game doesnt give melee weapons atleast some increased range like Left 4 Dead 2 and TF2's demoknight melee weapons

I am relatively bad at TF2 but do not like playing TF2. Does that meand that TF2 is not exactly a good game?

Your arguement, people, is completely impossible. See, this is subjective.

I LOVED playing STALKER back when I was not a memetic badass at the game. I still love it.
I never was good at TF2. But recently I am also not having fun with it.
My fun on counter strike depended on how the team worked together
My from World of Tanks depends on whether I did better then EVERYONE else in the battle or not :P :P...

is probably not a good game for you, thats the end of the story

you know, different people, different tastes, a concept Mr. Clarinet doesnt seem to be able to grasp

CrossLOPER:

NuclearKangaroo:

you can check my steam profile, 2 hours, RO2, TF2 and BLR all took much less time to suck me in

NS2 is a totally different game. 2 hours is not nearly enough to learn how to play. I played the original as much as I could when I was in Uni, and it took me weeks to figure out how not to die immediately with the Skulk. You simply did not dedicate enough time to the game. I'm sorry if this offends you.

no it doesnt offend me, a game like that is in my opinion not worth my time, i play games to have fun, not to have a second job

thats is IF NS2 truthly takes "weeks" as you say for the melee in the game to not feel terrible

it mario took weeks for the jumping to feel good believe me the series wouldnt be so great

That is exactly what he is saying. It is only your opinion.
For him, its good. For both he and me, an easy to learn game =/= a good game.
STALKER> Mario for me every day of the week.
And it is a cult classic too :P .

Basically, you gave your opinion in a way that seemed absolute and in this case, not right to Clarinte. The very thing you do like, he does not, and vice versa. If you had given in my opinion earlier and had it sound less absolute, then there wouls be no problem.

Charcharo:

NuclearKangaroo:

Mr. Clarinet:

Mate my only reason to reply to you was this sentence here "it almost never works, it certainly didnt work here"

Now take that in, and reprocess what I just told you before.

and in my opinion it didnt work, get it now?

Charcharo:

I am relatively bad at TF2 but do not like playing TF2. Does that meand that TF2 is not exactly a good game?

Your arguement, people, is completely impossible. See, this is subjective.

I LOVED playing STALKER back when I was not a memetic badass at the game. I still love it.
I never was good at TF2. But recently I am also not having fun with it.
My fun on counter strike depended on how the team worked together
My from World of Tanks depends on whether I did better then EVERYONE else in the battle or not :P :P...

is probably not a good game for you, thats the end of the story

you know, different people, different tastes, a concept Mr. Clarinet doesnt seem to be able to grasp

CrossLOPER:

NS2 is a totally different game. 2 hours is not nearly enough to learn how to play. I played the original as much as I could when I was in Uni, and it took me weeks to figure out how not to die immediately with the Skulk. You simply did not dedicate enough time to the game. I'm sorry if this offends you.

no it doesnt offend me, a game like that is in my opinion not worth my time, i play games to have fun, not to have a second job

thats is IF NS2 truthly takes "weeks" as you say for the melee in the game to not feel terrible

it mario took weeks for the jumping to feel good believe me the series wouldnt be so great

That is exactly what he is saying. It is only your opinion.
For him, its good. For both he and me, an easy to learn game =/= a good game.
STALKER> Mario for me every day of the week.
And it is a cult classic too :P .

Basically, you gave your opinion in a way that seemed absolute and in this case, not right to Clarinte. The very thing you do like, he does not, and vice versa. If you had given in my opinion earlier and had it sound less absolute, then there wouls be no problem.

but the thing is, is not a matter of being easy to learn, is a matter of engaging the player, of either teaching all the complexities of the game in an easy to understand way OR show him the possibilities that the gameplay of the game offers

this is something i feel other complex games have managed to do very well, i mentioned a few examples, Age of Wonders, the XCOM games, Men of War, Company of heroes, etc

NuclearKangaroo:

Charcharo:

NuclearKangaroo:

and in my opinion it didnt work, get it now?

is probably not a good game for you, thats the end of the story

you know, different people, different tastes, a concept Mr. Clarinet doesnt seem to be able to grasp

no it doesnt offend me, a game like that is in my opinion not worth my time, i play games to have fun, not to have a second job

thats is IF NS2 truthly takes "weeks" as you say for the melee in the game to not feel terrible

it mario took weeks for the jumping to feel good believe me the series wouldnt be so great

That is exactly what he is saying. It is only your opinion.
For him, its good. For both he and me, an easy to learn game =/= a good game.
STALKER> Mario for me every day of the week.
And it is a cult classic too :P .

Basically, you gave your opinion in a way that seemed absolute and in this case, not right to Clarinte. The very thing you do like, he does not, and vice versa. If you had given in my opinion earlier and had it sound less absolute, then there wouls be no problem.

but the thing is, is not a matter of being easy to learn, is a matter of engaging the player, of either teaching all the complexities of the game in an easy to understand way OR show him the possibilities that the gameplay of the game offers

this is something i feel other complex games have managed to do very well, i mentioned a few examples, Age of Wonders, the XCOM games, Men of War, Company of heroes, etc

And that is 100% subjective. There are techniques that usually help with what is engaging. But, for better or worse, they are not exactly surefires.
For an example, the Intro and tutorial of Wolfenstein TNO was much MUCH MUCH more engaging to me then for an example the one of Infinite or even TLOU.
Same for all tutorials and other such shit.

Charcharo:

NuclearKangaroo:

Charcharo:

That is exactly what he is saying. It is only your opinion.
For him, its good. For both he and me, an easy to learn game =/= a good game.
STALKER> Mario for me every day of the week.
And it is a cult classic too :P .

Basically, you gave your opinion in a way that seemed absolute and in this case, not right to Clarinte. The very thing you do like, he does not, and vice versa. If you had given in my opinion earlier and had it sound less absolute, then there wouls be no problem.

but the thing is, is not a matter of being easy to learn, is a matter of engaging the player, of either teaching all the complexities of the game in an easy to understand way OR show him the possibilities that the gameplay of the game offers

this is something i feel other complex games have managed to do very well, i mentioned a few examples, Age of Wonders, the XCOM games, Men of War, Company of heroes, etc

And that is 100% subjective. There are techniques that usually help with what is engaging. But, for better or worse, they are not exactly surefires.
For an example, the Intro and tutorial of Wolfenstein TNO was much MUCH MUCH more engaging to me then for an example the one of Infinite or even TLOU.
Same for all tutorials and other such shit.

well yeah its subjective, i subjectively believe this game didnt do much to engage me, i also subjectively believe the melee in the game was very disorienting and frustrating, i subjectively didnt believe the game was good

as i said many times before, this is my opinion

NuclearKangaroo:

Charcharo:

NuclearKangaroo:

but the thing is, is not a matter of being easy to learn, is a matter of engaging the player, of either teaching all the complexities of the game in an easy to understand way OR show him the possibilities that the gameplay of the game offers

this is something i feel other complex games have managed to do very well, i mentioned a few examples, Age of Wonders, the XCOM games, Men of War, Company of heroes, etc

And that is 100% subjective. There are techniques that usually help with what is engaging. But, for better or worse, they are not exactly surefires.
For an example, the Intro and tutorial of Wolfenstein TNO was much MUCH MUCH more engaging to me then for an example the one of Infinite or even TLOU.
Same for all tutorials and other such shit.

well yeah its subjective, i subjectively believe this game didnt do much to engage me, i also subjectively believe the melee in the game was very disorienting and frustrating, i subjectively didnt believe the game was good

as i said many times before, this is my opinion

I believe you mate. It is just that I am telling you what I think the problem actually is and what it came from.
You guys had a misunderstandment :P .

Charcharo:

NuclearKangaroo:

Charcharo:

And that is 100% subjective. There are techniques that usually help with what is engaging. But, for better or worse, they are not exactly surefires.
For an example, the Intro and tutorial of Wolfenstein TNO was much MUCH MUCH more engaging to me then for an example the one of Infinite or even TLOU.
Same for all tutorials and other such shit.

well yeah its subjective, i subjectively believe this game didnt do much to engage me, i also subjectively believe the melee in the game was very disorienting and frustrating, i subjectively didnt believe the game was good

as i said many times before, this is my opinion

I believe you mate. It is just that I am telling you what I think the problem actually is and what it came from.
You guys had a misunderstandment :P .

goddamit you and your... reasonable conclusions

Mr. Clarinet if you see this, its all my opinion, take it with a grain of salt, i dont mind complex games, but i think NS2 wasnt engaging enough to dig deeper into its complexity and i hated its implementation of first person melee

 

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