Marion Zimmer Bradley Sexually Molested Me, Daughter Accuses

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Marion Zimmer Bradley Sexually Molested Me, Daughter Accuses

'The first time she molested me, I was 3. The last time, I was 12, and able to walk away.'

Marion Zimmer Bradley, author of The Mists of Avalon and the Darkover series among many other works, as well as editor/publisher of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Fantasy Magazine, has been accused of sexual abuse by her daughter, Moira Greyland. The accusations first aired in a blog post earlier this month, in which Greyland stated that the assaults began when she was 3 and only stopped when she was old enough to walk away.

"None of this should be news. Walter was a serial rapist with many, many, many victims (I named 22 to the cops) but Marion was far, far worse," said Greyland. "She was cruel and violent, as well as completely out of her mind sexually."

Greyland goes on to say that, to her knowledge, she was not the only victim, nor were all the victims girls. In a follow-up to the Guardian newspaper, Greyland says that one of the reasons for keeping silent for so long was that she was afraid Bradley's fans would be angry with her. Greyland didn't want to hurt anyone her mother had helped; there are many science fiction and fantasy authors who owe their careers to Bradley, never mind countless fans who admire her and her work.

"One reason I never said anything is that I regarded her life as being more important than mine: her fame more important, and assuredly the comfort of her fans as more important," says Greyland.

Authors who worked with or for Bradley are horrified at these revelations. One, Janni Lee Simner, has promised to donate royalties earned from her Darkover works to anti-abuse charity RAINN.

Greyland is the daughter of Bradley and Walter H. Breen, science fiction author and member of NAMBLA, who died in prison in 1993. He was serving 10 years on felony charges for molesting a 13-year-old boy. Bradley died in 1999, following a heart attack.

"I am so glad I spoke out, because on the blog, so many people have shared their OWN stories of abuse and incest and heartbreak," Greyland told the Guardian. "I am going to keep talking about it, if only so that those people who need to share their own stories will do so now."

Source: Guardian

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I am a big science fiction/fantasy fan but I have never read any of the work (was on my list somewhere), I would be much less inclined to do so now. I think it is very sad that she stayed silent for so long it should not matter what an abuser has accomplished in other aspects of their life. But I cannot really understand the frame of mind of someone suffering that as I haven't.

Captcha: poison apple . . . so it would seem.

Just horrific. Words fail me.

"One reason I never said anything is that I regarded her life as being more important than mine..."

This sentiment is really disheartening. I hope by speaking out she is implying this is no longer something she believes.

Raised by two pedos thats just horrible.

Also I have never heard of either of their work and I will likely not now.

Karloff:
Greyland.

Gralyand

Grayland

EDITING!

OT: That's horrifying. D:

It's been 15 years since Bradley died... imagine holding quiet on this for over fifteen years.

I'm definetly against child abuse of any kind and I'm sorry for Moira Grayland's suffering.
On the other hand, during wiki-surfing the people involved, I've found out that NAMBLA is a real thing, not just something made up for an episode of South Park. Americans, why you so crazy?

AndreiCC:
I've found out that NAMBLA is a real thing

Where on Earth have you been?

But yeah this is awful stuff, I don't know if this was the best way to reveal it but it's on her terms so good for her. A lot of the time a woman lets the man abuse the girl or don't know she's abused but not often do you here both parties took part. Geez. :/

Having read some of the Darkover novels, this... actually doesn't surprise me. Sadly enough.

Ok...so that happened. Sad if true? Absolutely.(Note:I'm not claiming it isn't) But...considering how many other great works have had even sicker creators, this is honestly just a drop in the pond, not really all that significant of a drop either, the only thing about it is how recent it is/was.

The books she wrote are still worth reading, and anyone that can't separate the author's personality from their penmanship should probably look harder into at least a handful of the authors they've read the works of.

Yeesh. That is scary. My heart goes out to her and any other victims.

Also find myself glad now (rather than sad as I was before) that I could never get into the Mists of Avalon novels. If I'd enjoyed them, I'd have to associate them with rather disturbing feelings now.

Jumwa:
Yeesh. That is scary. My heart goes out to her and any other victims.

Also find myself glad now (rather than sad as I was before) that I could never get into the Mists of Avalon novels. If I'd enjoyed them, I'd have to associate them with rather disturbing feelings now.

You could still enjoy the books, even if the Author is a despicable human being. After all, im sure some part of the Author flows into the work, into characters, but its hardly a representation of who the Author is. Otherwise GRRM is a serial killer waiting to happen, mind you he'd be slow and you'd see him coming but he'd keep trying.

OT: This is..bad. I dont really know how else to describe this, im more suprised she didnt speak out sooner, nevermind the fact that she had such low self-esteem that she felt she was worth less than her mother or her mother's fame. I mean..god damn..

A-D.:
You could still enjoy the books, even if the Author is a despicable human being. After all, im sure some part of the Author flows into the work, into characters, but its hardly a representation of who the Author is. Otherwise GRRM is a serial killer waiting to happen, mind you he'd be slow and you'd see him coming but he'd keep trying.

True...though I find it's better when the author is safely dead.

If Lovecraft was still alive and calling for gassing of certain neighbourhoods, I'd not buy his books, for example.

Also awkward when it comes to celebrating them and their work.

A-D.:
OT: This is..bad. I dont really know how else to describe this, im more suprised she didnt speak out sooner, nevermind the fact that she had such low self-esteem that she felt she was worth less than her mother or her mother's fame. I mean..god damn..

Well, not that surprising. Long term physical/sexual abuse requires manipulation and psychological/emotional abuse. Especially with kids, if the people responsible for bringing them up bring them up to feel worthless, that's no small thing.

Society also really doesn't help, there's plenty of harmful ideas about abuse around. I'm actually surprised that nobody has yet claimed that she's making it up for some random reason or other, that's the usual response. That or she's somehow to blame, that she's not acted like a "proper" rape victim should or something.

She was sick and deserved worst. But withou her, things like Game of Thrones will never exist. Jack Bauer call this "an impossible situation". Imagine if Hitler had written Lord of the Rings.

AndreiCC:
I'm definetly against child abuse of any kind and I'm sorry for Moira Grayland's suffering.
On the other hand, during wiki-surfing the people involved, I've found out that NAMBLA is a real thing, not just something made up for an episode of South Park. Americans, why you so crazy?

There was a political party in Holland or Denmark, I can't remember which, that supported getting rid of the age of consent entirely. The laws were changed and they were forced to dissolve.

I thought this was a stupid thing to do for two reasons.

1.) I never thought for a second they would ever elect anyone.
2.) If someone was charged with child molestation and they were a member of this party, it would make getting a conviction really easy.

thaluikhain:
Society also really doesn't help, there's plenty of harmful ideas about abuse around. I'm actually surprised that nobody has yet claimed that she's making it up for some random reason or other, that's the usual response. That or she's somehow to blame, that she's not acted like a "proper" rape victim should or something.

Well not I'm saying she's to blame, but will I do? :)

Sorry if this sounds heartless, but accusations aren't proof.

If the accusations are true, then indeed that author deserves that special hell of Firefly fame. But if, as the OP suggests, this is just an unproven claim being put forward by the daughter then skepticism and salt are required. There's a reason why the Justice system requires evidence before conviction. Of course, if proof exists, and I've missed it, then fair enough, bring out the effigies.

I find it somewhat disheartening how often when claims like this are made too many people, especially the media forget that whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing.

For the record, I've never even heard of this author before clicking on this thread, I'm not trying to defend her. I'm not saying that the daughter is definitely making it up, only that, in lieu of corroborating proof, it is a possibility. Accusations aren't evidence. Convicting someone of such a serious crime, in either a court of law or the court of public opinion (the latter being the only one the dead are vulnerable to), should come down to more than 'well the supposed victim told us it happened'.

Again, if true, that's a special kind of fucked up evil.

Hope I don't regret making this post...

Mangue Surfer:
She was sick and deserved worst. But withou her things like Game of Thrones will never exist. Jack Bauer call this "an impossible situation". Imagine if Hitler had written Lord of the Rings.

During World War II, the Nazis did human experiments that actually did help advance medical science. What do you do in this situation? Use the data, but don't give anyone credit for it.

Similarly, continue to use her work as inspiration, but don't acknowledge her or her work by name.

Megalodon:
Well not I'm saying she's to blame, but will I do? :)

Sorry if this sounds heartless, but accusations aren't proof.

If the accusations are true, then indeed that author deserves that special hell of Firefly fame. But if, as the OP suggests, this is just an unproven claim being put forward by the daughter then skepticism and salt are required. There's a reason why the Justice system requires evidence before conviction. Of course, if proof exists, and I've missed it, then fair enough, bring out the effigies.

I find it somewhat disheartening how often when claims like this are made too many people, especially the media forget that whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing.

For the record, I've never even heard of this author before clicking on this thread, I'm not trying to defend her. I'm not saying that the daughter is definitely making it up, only that, in lieu of corroborating proof, it is a possibility. Accusations aren't evidence. Convicting someone of such a serious crime, in either a court of law or the court of public opinion (the latter being the only one the dead are vulnerable to), should come down to more than 'well the supposed victim told us it happened'.

Again, if true, that's a special kind of fucked up evil.

Hope I don't regret making this post...

Firstly, "innocent until proven guilty" for the accused means "liar until proven otherwise" for the accuser[1]. There is a staggeringly high number of rapes, and a tiny number of convictions, in large part because people are quick to put the victim on trial. The number of false rape allegations is tiny, but is constantly blown out of proportion, moreso than most crimes. Large parts of society firmly believe (for some reason), that any and all men are at immediate risk of a false rape accusation ruining their lives. This isn't true. It most definitely does come down to a lot more than 'well the supposed victim told us it happened'. You also don't get anywhere this paranoia with most other crimes.

Secondly, "innocent until proven guilty" is an important part of the justice system. If the justice system lets that sort of thing drop, they punish innocent people. I am not the justice system, nor is anyone here. If we are less rigorous in that, we might end up showing sympathy on a forum to someone who won't read it, that we aren't sure is a victim beyond reasonable doubt. For us here, 'well the supposed victim told us it happened' is good enough, IMHO.

[1] Or, for adults, where the defense is that the victim consented, all victims consented until proven otherwise in a court of law

A-D.:

You could still enjoy the books, even if the Author is a despicable human being. After all, im sure some part of the Author flows into the work, into characters, but its hardly a representation of who the Author is. Otherwise GRRM is a serial killer waiting to happen, mind you he'd be slow and you'd see him coming but he'd keep trying.

Of course you can, and I enjoy plenty of things created by deplorable people.

However, we're emotional beings, and can't always decide how we feel. It helps when the creator is dead and can't benefit any further from your support, but this would be sure to leave a sour taste all the same I'd wager.

Yikes. That's horrifying.

Hixy:
I am a big science fiction/fantasy fan but I have never read any of the work (was on my list somewhere), I would be much less inclined to do so now. I think it is very sad that she stayed silent for so long it should not matter what an abuser has accomplished in other aspects of their life. But I cannot really understand the frame of mind of someone suffering that as I haven't.

Captcha: poison apple . . . so it would seem.

On the bright side, it's not like you'd be financially contributing to her, seeing as she's been dead for fifteen years.

I mean, nobody's going to force you to buy her books, but it's hard to argue any damage comes from it at this point.

Speaking of, I wonder who does currently benefit.

Fappy:

"One reason I never said anything is that I regarded her life as being more important than mine..."

This sentiment is really disheartening. I hope by speaking out she is implying this is no longer something she believes.

This isn't entirely uncommon in cases of abuse. But yes, hopefully this means she's getting over that feeling.

V4Viewtiful:
Where on Earth have you been?

In fairness, even in the US it's played for laughs. Not to mention, NAMBLA sounds too comically stupid to really exist: a pro-pederasty group in this day and age? Combine those two, and you'd think it was an urban legend or a joke comedians had been stealing for years.

AndreiCC:
I'm definetly against child abuse of any kind and I'm sorry for Moira Grayland's suffering.
On the other hand, during wiki-surfing the people involved, I've found out that NAMBLA is a real thing, not just something made up for an episode of South Park. Americans, why you so crazy?

*rolls eyes* Yes because crazy is USA exclusive :P

This is the time of the internet! Where insanity is outsourced worldwide!

OT: I recall the books, having worked in a book store for a few years, but never really got into them. And I don't really know any huge fans of them either. Some people had read them yeah, but I don't recall ever sitting down with friends and debating them until the wee hours of the morning like other book series.

Sorry for her daughter though, and I can't express how angry that statement she made makes me though. The "I didn't want to upset her fans with my trauma" thing. That's the kind of mindset that keeps people from getting help. Don't worry about the fans of someone who has harmed you, I'd rather know that she was a rapist and have her daughter get help ASAP, instead of thinking the lady was a nice person, and praise her work while her child suffers.

Anyone reading this that might be in a similar situation to the daughter, don't worry about protecting someone else's feelings about the person who hurt you, get help, and report them, ASAP.

Megalodon:
*snip*

In addition to what Thaluikhain said, it seems pretty likely that her story is true just based on the situation. Her father was a member of NAMBLA and was imprisoned for molesting many people she named as victims to the police. As well, her mother has been dead for 15 years, it's hard to think of some ulterior motive she could have for outing her now. If she wanted to ruin her mother's life or reputation she'd have had far more success doing that while she was still alive. There just doesn't seem to be anything to gain by making a false accusation here aside from the ire of her devoted fans.

I can't begin to understand what it'd be like to grow up in her situation though, being abused like that by both parents? One thing that confuses me is that first poem is dated 2000, why didn't someone draw this conclusion earlier?

Zachary Amaranth:

V4Viewtiful:
Where on Earth have you been?

In fairness, even in the US it's played for laughs. Not to mention, NAMBLA sounds too comically stupid to really exist: a pro-pederasty group in this day and age? Combine those two, and you'd think it was an urban legend or a joke comedians had been stealing for years.

Yeah okay, I'll give you that. It's an odd world we live :/

In a way I hate hearing stories like this not because I don't like them but rather when the victims are adults it's often too late.

thaluikhain:
Firstly, "innocent until proven guilty" for the accused means "liar until proven otherwise" for the accuser[1]

What? No, that's not how it works...

The accused being assumed innocent until proven otherwise isn't the same as the accuser being assumed a liar until proven otherwise.

There exists a state in between where a thing called an investigation happens. The accuser is assumed to be honest and his/her accusations taken seriously while at the same time the accused is assumed innocent and not immediately imprisoned.

There's absolutely no issue with not knowing things. With not knowing the facts and thus assuming both parties honest and treating them personally as such. It's perfectly possible to offer someone your sympathies and support while at the same time treating the person they're accusing with all due respect and friendliness until the facts are actually known.

Not every situations warrants judgment. You don't always have to take a side.

[1] Or, for adults, where the defense is that the victim consented, all victims consented until proven otherwise in a court of law

A-D.:
Otherwise GRRM is a serial killer waiting to happen, mind you he'd be slow and you'd see him coming but he'd keep trying.

That was magnificent!!

thaluikhain:
The number of false rape allegations is tiny

Even one is too many. And blaming a dead person who can't fight back - that's just weak, while also pointless.

thaluikhain:
If the justice system lets that sort of thing drop, they punish innocent people. I am not the justice system, nor is anyone here.

We're still intelligent beings capable of critical thinking. I suppose you've never witnessed a truly wretched and insidious liar. I did, and boy, that gives you some perspective. One can never, ever, ever believe somebody just because "they say so," especially with accusations of such magnitude.

Hagi:

thaluikhain:
Firstly, "innocent until proven guilty" for the accused means "liar until proven otherwise" for the accuser[1]

What? No, that's not how it works...

The accused being assumed innocent until proven otherwise isn't the same as the accuser being assumed a liar until proven otherwise.

There exists a state in between where a thing called an investigation happens. The accuser is assumed to be honest and his/her accusations taken seriously while at the same time the accused is assumed innocent and not immediately imprisoned.

There's absolutely no issue with not knowing things. With not knowing the facts and thus assuming both parties honest and treating them personally as such. It's perfectly possible to offer someone your sympathies and support while at the same time treating the person they're accusing with all due respect and friendliness until the facts are actually known.

Not every situations warrants judgment. You don't always have to take a side.

The whole point of a court case is to judge people. That's why it's presided over by a judge, with a jury to listen to both sides and pick one.

(I'd also point out that the accuser being assumed to be honest, and their accusations being taken seriously during the investigation is how things are supposed to happen, things very often fall far short of that. In any case, the investigators have to judge whether or not it's worth bringing to trial, which is very similar to judging the people involved.)

McKinsey:
We're still intelligent beings capable of critical thinking. I suppose you've never witnessed a truly wretched and insidious liar. I did, and boy, that gives you some perspective. One can never, ever, ever believe somebody just because "they say so," especially with accusations of such magnitude.

What magnitude? Again, I am not the justice system. It does not matter what I believe.

Now, appoint me the judge, or a juror, or a police officer, and then I will have to be much more careful and look into things in much greater detail. But I'm just another internet random. I can content myself with her probably telling the truth, I've no reason to doubt her.

[1] Or, for adults, where the defense is that the victim consented, all victims consented until proven otherwise in a court of law

thaluikhain:

Hagi:

thaluikhain:
Firstly, "innocent until proven guilty" for the accused means "liar until proven otherwise" for the accuser[1]

What? No, that's not how it works...

The accused being assumed innocent until proven otherwise isn't the same as the accuser being assumed a liar until proven otherwise.

There exists a state in between where a thing called an investigation happens. The accuser is assumed to be honest and his/her accusations taken seriously while at the same time the accused is assumed innocent and not immediately imprisoned.

There's absolutely no issue with not knowing things. With not knowing the facts and thus assuming both parties honest and treating them personally as such. It's perfectly possible to offer someone your sympathies and support while at the same time treating the person they're accusing with all due respect and friendliness until the facts are actually known.

Not every situations warrants judgment. You don't always have to take a side.

The whole point of a court case is to judge people. That's why it's presided over by a judge, with a jury to listen to both sides and pick one.

(I'd also point out that the accuser being assumed to be honest, and their accusations being taken seriously during the investigation is how things are supposed to happen, things very often fall far short of that. In any case, the investigators have to judge whether or not it's worth bringing to trial, which is very similar to judging the people involved.)

The court's job yes.

Not your job. You don't have to say:

thaluikhain:
For us here, 'well the supposed victim told us it happened' is good enough, IMHO.

You don't have to make any judgment at all. Nothing has to be good enough because it isn't your job to judge.

And yes, I'm talking about how things are supposed to happen. I'm well aware that they often don't. But that does not justify your other extreme of having an accusation being good enough.

It's good enough to offer the accuser your full sympathies but it's never good enough in any interaction towards the accused.

[1] Or, for adults, where the defense is that the victim consented, all victims consented until proven otherwise in a court of law

Zachary Amaranth:

In fairness, even in the US it's played for laughs. Not to mention, NAMBLA sounds too comically stupid to really exist: a pro-pederasty group in this day and age? Combine those two, and you'd think it was an urban legend or a joke comedians had been stealing for years.

NAMBLA is not a joke but really exists. Allen Ginsberg was its most prominent member and Moira Greyland father, Walter Breen, was also a member. Walter Breen was convicted of 13 counts of forcing a boy under 14 to perform oral sex on him. I also refer you to this

During the the early 70s until the early 80's the gay rights movement and its leftwing supporters did include pedophile organizations, not only in the USA but in the UK as well. NAMBLA and its UK counterpart, the Pedophile information network, used the lefts naivety to promote its cause. The used the hard lefts then prevalent mindset where support for anything that looked evenly traditional would lead to accusations of being a bourgeoisie and being insufficiently revolutionary. The same kind of explosion of rage that you would see if someone says that that DRM is good thing here. It wasn't until the mid 80s when much of the sound and fury died out of the movement where they ejected from the wider gay rights movement.

thaluikhain:

snip

.

Don't object to the general theme of your post, and while I disagree with some of your opinions, I'm not going to call you wrong for holding them. However, there are a couple of (somewhat off topic) points you brought up that I do question.

There is a staggeringly high number of rapes, and a tiny number of convictions,

What do you define as staggering? I looked it up and wasn't particularly staggered (for the record I looked by reported cases, I'm highly sceptical about claims over the amount of unreported crime of any kind, due to the fundamentally dubious nature of data acquisition).

As for convictions, rape appears to actually be comparable/better to more generalised crime, at least in the UK. With 13/14% of reported rapes ending in conviction, whereas only around 15% of reports of general criminal cases result in charges, let alone conviction.

Then you have the conviction rate (the proportion of cases which go to trial resulting in convictions) for rape at 58%. The rate for general reportable crimes is apparently 57%.

So if anything, what data there is suggests rape victims have as good or better chances of justice than any other crime victim. Which isn't the usual activist line.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-about-rape-conviction-rates

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/aug/21/open-door-fair-fact-rape

The number of false rape allegations is tiny, but is constantly blown out of proportion,

Really? Because a quick google and wiki check suggests otherwise. With a number of countries, including the US and UK, putting the figure at 8-10%, the highest I could find being Finland at 20%.

While stats of this nature are somewhat nightmarish, with differing data collection criteria etc. these aren't insignificant percentages.

You also don't get anywhere this paranoia with most other crimes.

Which I don't find particularly surprising. It's a serious sexual crime, that all to easily can come down to merely 'he said, she said' instead of useful evidence (or at least, that's the common perception). This is then combined with the fact that women are often viewed more sympathetically than men, creating the idea of 'the jury will believe the crying woman over me' (not saying this is true, but I get the thought process behind it). Plus there's the whole accusation=guilty thing in the wider culture and media (my objection to which being the point of my initial post). For a recent high profile (again, in the UK) example, look at the trial of William Roache, with its accompanying trial by media. Summarised here:

http://www.cmcstir.org/jou9x2/the-guilty-portrayal-of-an-innocent-man/

Hagi:

You don't have to make any judgment at all. Nothing has to be good enough because it isn't your job to judge.

And yes, I'm talking about how things are supposed to happen. I'm well aware that they often don't. But that does not justify your other extreme of having an accusation being good enough.

It's good enough to offer the accuser your full sympathies but it's never good enough in any interaction towards the accused.

Well said. I wish I could have summarised my views this succinctly.

Hagi:
It's good enough to offer the accuser your full sympathies but it's never good enough in any interaction towards the accused.

If the accused, who has been dead for 15 years, turns out to be innocent and has been reading what I've written in this thread, then I'll apologise to them.

Hagi:
You don't have to make any judgment at all. Nothing has to be good enough because it isn't your job to judge.

Neither am I under any obligation only to believe things that have been decided in a court of law.

Megalodon:
for the record I looked by reported cases, I'm highly sceptical about claims over the amount of unreported crime of any kind, due to the fundamentally dubious nature of data acquisition

Well, if you are only going by reported cases, then yes. I have serious problems with this approach. The number of unreported rapes can only be estimated, but dismissing them because of this is a very bad idea.

Megalodon:
As for convictions, rape appears to actually be comparable/better to more generalised crime, at least in the UK. With 13/14% of reported rapes ending in conviction, whereas only around 15% of reports of general criminal cases result in charges, let alone conviction.

Then you have the conviction rate (the proportion of cases which go to trial resulting in convictions) for rape at 58%. The rate for general reportable crimes is apparently 57%.

So if anything, what data there is suggests rape victims have as good or better chances of justice than any other crime victim. Which isn't the usual activist line.

I'd argue that it comparing rape with all crimes that involve a court case is a bit misleading though. I wasn't away the conviction rate once it got to court was that high, though.

Megalodon:
Which I don't find particularly surprising. It's a serious sexual crime, that all to easily can come down to merely 'he said, she said' instead of useful evidence (or at least, that's the common perception). This is then combined with the fact that women are often viewed more sympathetically than men, creating the idea of 'the jury will believe the crying woman over me' (not saying this is true, but I get the thought process behind it). Plus there's the whole accusation=guilty thing in the wider culture and media (my objection to which being the point of my initial post). For a recent high profile (again, in the UK) example, look at the trial of William Roache, with its accompanying trial by media. Summarised here:

http://www.cmcstir.org/jou9x2/the-guilty-portrayal-of-an-innocent-man/

Not surprising, but disheartening. I'd also say that the fact that men are never going to be the victim of a male on female rape, no matter how common they are, but could be of a false accusation, no matter how uncommon those are, might have something to do with how many men, consciously or not, see the issue.

Wha.... what????
That author was kind of an idol for me when I was a kid. This is like discovering that Walt Disney movies contain nazi propaganda or something.

Are we... sure it's real? Are we sure the girl's not fishing for attention, or more likely she's blaming the abuses of the father to the mother?

I mean, Bradley? Seriously??

thaluikhain:

Hagi:
It's good enough to offer the accuser your full sympathies but it's never good enough in any interaction towards the accused.

If the accused, who has been dead for 15 years, turns out to be innocent and has been reading what I've written in this thread, then I'll apologise to them.

Hagi:
You don't have to make any judgment at all. Nothing has to be good enough because it isn't your job to judge.

Neither am I under any obligation only to believe things that have been decided in a court of law.

It's not about obligations. It's about decency.

About all the little things you don't have to do, but doing them makes you a better person.

Like offering sympathy and support to a reported victim without immediately rushing to judgment.

You don't have to offer sympathy and support. But it's the decent thing to do.
You don't have to refrain from rushing to judge. But it's the decent thing to do.

It's super duper important to tell everyone when someone is a rapist. It SEEMS like none of your business and that you shouldn't tell anyone and everyone, but you must! If not, then people associate and support a RAPIST. Something most would not do.

A mutual friend of mine and most of my friends turned out to be a rapist. Nobody talked about it and just pushed him out of the group. The problem is that only like 3 people know he is a rapist and so other people are defending him and supporting him because he got to them first. Madness!

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