We Need Toxic Players, According to Orcs Must Die Developer

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT
 

We Need Toxic Players, According to Orcs Must Die Developer

Orcs Must Die Unchained

"Haters gonna hate," says Orcs Must Die developer, "There's probably something good about the toxic players showing up and sticking with your game."

Robot Entertainment Orcs Must Die: Unchained designer Jerome K. Jones believes toxic players are necessary for a successful game. If you have toxic players playing your game, it means you're doing something right.

Jones told Polygon, "The good thing is probably that it's a good game. It's holding their interest, it's keeping them around. It's making them passionate enough to give a damn." He goes on to state that, "You need those people there. They're driving the game. They're giving it longevity. They're giving it passion. And when they find something about your game that they love, they defend it to the death. Those are the same people that can go to bat for you."

He believes games shouldn't try to alienate that group of aggressive players, "I don't think those are bad people. You just gotta do your best to deal with them in whatever manner seems to work the best." He believes toxic, or overly passionate, players get upset because they don't understand the development process, but, "They're not going to go away. And honestly, I don't think you want them to."

This mentality is in stark contrast with other MOBAs-though Jones also mentioned he cringes any time Unchained is called a multiplayer online battle arena game-like League of Legends, who goes as far as banning professional players for misconduct.

Source: Game Industry International

Permalink

Oops, sorry! Haters are anti-fun police. There is absolutely nothing good about people shouting and cussing through a microphone the worst bile you've ever seen since the contents of your stomach.

Uh, no. These people need to go away. This is the reason I hate fighters and MOBAs and think they need to be avoided like the plague. But no it's just gonna continue all because of asshats like this guy.

I disagree. People like that tend to drive other people away from games. If the atmosphere is toxic, new players are going to feel completely unwelcome and abandon the game. They may also talk about their terrible experience, thus driving away more people who won't even give the game a chance because they don't want to deal with it.

Honestly, I think this guy is using the wrong term here. For most of us, 'Toxic' are the people who swear every other word, insult new players, sling racial and sexual slurs around, and basically just make the entire game completely unfriendly. It sounds like the the type of people this guy is talking about are die-hard fans, the ones that will still buy a Sonic or Mario game even though they already know it's not going to be good.

Yea... no. Like the people above me have stated. Toxic people are more likely to drive people away. They aren't passionate about the game, they are passionate about making everyone else feel like shit. Once a new call of Duty comes out, they will gladly abandon whatever game they were playing. Leaving whatever is left behind a hollow husk, devoid of the fans driven off by the Toxic, and by the toxic themselves for lack of interest.

That's the whole reason why I avoid 90% of all multiplayer. I can't remember how many games I've put down and never touched again because I hopped on and was told, at least in once case, to go get cancer because I didn't play like someone wanted me to.

I seriously wish I was making that up...

Thanks. I always appreciate it when a developer tells me straight up that I should avoid their game.

Yeah a toxic echo-chamber of bile-spewing assholes sounds great. Toxicity =/= Passion.
I love The Last of Us to death, but I don't feel the need to be an aggressive man-child if someone think it's garbage.

Worst quote ever. That's some pretty garbage logic. Toxic players in your games does not mean it's popular and those players are "passionate" for your game. It means they are toxic players and need to be dealt with ASAP. The less of them the better and does not spell doom for the game.

Yes, and sexism is an invaluable part of the fighting game community...

Yeah, sounds like rationalization to me... um, developer, you are aware that you're in an abusive relationship, right?

Jerome K. Jones:
"They're not going to go away. And honestly, I don't think you want them to. You need those people there," he continued. "They're driving the game. They're giving it longevity. They're giving it passion. And when they find something about your game that they love, they defend it to the death. Those are the same people that can go to bat for you."

Yes, toxicity means your game is holding some folks attention and it is indicative of good things popularity wise (initially); but that doesn't mean the attitude itself is good.

It's a tradeoff: your game gets big, attracts some diehard assholes, but if they get out of control, they will drive away other customers.

That, and there's a pretty huge hole in your logic of toxic players eing "essential"; There is no reason why a fan can't play the game without deliberately being a shitheel to anyone else.

As for players who are concerned with encountering some form of toxicity or a high level of aggression, Jones advises playing more defensively or acting as a support character in the game, rather than challenging aggression with aggression. "I don't think those are bad people," he said. "You just gotta do your best to deal with them in whatever manner seems to work the best."

That approach doesn't work at all. Especially in any team-vs-team game.
I see this all the time in MOBAs, in fact, the passivity of certain roles "support" is usually an avenue for easy abuse usually through some variant of the thought "I'm doing all the work, why aren't they doing more?" and "Oh why are you failing so bad? I'm not."

These people don't just respond to bad plays, they are consciously judging EVERYONE ELSE just waiting for the moment someone makes a mistake.

(Show of hands MOBA players; how many of you have seen the carry blame their support for losing lane or anyone blame the jungler for ANY reason?)

As for whether or not they're "bad people"...at that moment in time, they are unquestionably acting like "bad people".
NOBODY ELSE is forcing them to act that way and it's their conscious decision to act like an angry/elitist shithead.

So lets cut the bullshit and accept that people should take responsibility for their actions, mkay?

Now I don't expect anyone to possess infinite patience, but the most toxic of players are so full of themselves that they're ready to go off on the littlest things. And when they're in EVERY GAME, EVERY MATCH that's a big problem.

I stopped playing MOBAs entirely because of this toxic blame game culture; it's gotten to the point where even when I win, the ego driven finger pointing ruins the moment. It doesn't help you become a better player either, but that's another subject entirely.

I think this has some valid points. People who become passionate about a game will do anything to win, and if they don't they're likely to become toxic. That drive to win keeps people playing the same game for a longer period of time. However what needs to be changed is individuals who behave that way. While the drive is good, the behavior is not.

Mister Jones is blatantly missing the difference between passion and being obnoxious. A passionate player will argue in defense of his favorite game mechanics in a civil manner. An obnoxious player will think that having a screaming contest or insinuating that the rest of the forum's population suffers from a communal erectile dysfunction is going to put their argument on a pedestal and drive the developer into giving them some desperately needed attention.

What that says is that Unchained is about ready and willing to stick with the runts of the MOBA litter. "Hey, digruntled Riot Games, Hi-Rez and Valve fans who got kicked out because of your horrible lack of sportsmanship! Stick by us, we're HUGE fans of unprovoked profanity and barrages of death threats!"

Nope. Not giving my money to any kind of developer who actually espouses that attitude.

Looking at his description of why they're necessary, I don't think he knows what people mean when they say "toxic players", because toxic players do not lend any longevity to a game.

There's since been a clarification that was brought to my attention on their twitter. Take a peek:

https://orcsmustdie.com/news/toxic-players-will-be-incinerated-and-gibletized

Alcaste:
There's since been a clarification that was brought to my attention on their twitter. Take a peek:

https://orcsmustdie.com/news/toxic-players-will-be-incinerated-and-gibletized

LMAO. Yeah this confirms it. I don't think he really knew what the term 'toxic' meant...

Guys...I am disappoint. How has Montoya not maken an appearance yet?

I'm sorry developer guy but I believe you are mixing up "Passionate players" and "Asshats".

I know that they CAN be the same thing at time but one does not equal the other.

Passionate players are a good thing. Passion means you have done something right for people care. Asshats (or "Toxic Players") are not a good thing. Asshats poison the game community and keep new players away.

"I don't think those are bad people.

As someone who used to play a lot of Dota in the WC3 days, I can say that yes: a lot of them really are bad people.

No.

No no no no no.

If this is the attitude they are approaching the game with then I just lost all my hype.

I do not play a game to deal with people like this.

No. I. Do. Not.

antipunt:

Alcaste:
There's since been a clarification that was brought to my attention on their twitter. Take a peek:

https://orcsmustdie.com/news/toxic-players-will-be-incinerated-and-gibletized

LMAO. Yeah this confirms it. I don't think he really knew what the term 'toxic' meant...

Pretty quick for backpedaling.

antipunt:

Alcaste:
There's since been a clarification that was brought to my attention on their twitter. Take a peek:

https://orcsmustdie.com/news/toxic-players-will-be-incinerated-and-gibletized

LMAO. Yeah this confirms it. I don't think he really knew what the term 'toxic' meant...

How does someone not know that? How do you misconstrue "toxic" that way? I mean, seriously.

I'm starting to understand why CCP's CEO had the fiction department write his apology, because it's beginning to seem like developers... well, develop some sort of reflex forcing them to shove their feet in their mouths every time they opine publicly on anything.

Dude... what is the DEAL with game devs saying stupid stupid shit recently?
Did all the PR guys just go on strike or something?

Eh, yeah, not sure about that. A passionate, dedicated and hardcore playerbase is absolutely a thing every game desiring longevity should covet. That, however, is totally separate from the toxic players. There is literally no connection between the two. For every dedicated toxic player that sticks with the game there are untold other players who may have become dedicated players that gave up on the game or didn't even try it because of that toxicity.

Also, I think it's important to consider why a toxic player might be encouraged to stick around. Are they really sticking around because they have become attached to your game and are dedicated to it? Or are they sticking around because something in the way your game is designed encourages trollish and toxic behaviour such that they are actually getting their enjoyment not from your game at all but instead just from how it allows them to treat others badly?

"Toxic" comments in multiplayer games are a lot like trash talking in sports - it's generally accepted as part of the competitive atmosphere. What developers should do is seperate matches that allow trash talking from ones that don't - similar to how MMOs have player-killing servers and non-player killing servers. That way both sides will be happy.

Anyone who's played the Source Engine mod, 'Dystopia' should wholeheartedly agree that Toxic players are NOT FUCKING GOOD for a game's longevity.

My clan (at the time's) administration policies could not keep a dying game alive. But, fuck. We tried.

Passionate != toxic. Passionate people are the ones who give a damn. Toxic people are the people with bad attitudes who ruin the game for others. It's nice to have people who defend, but once they attack back they are not wanted. From a developer's standpoint, I would rather have a small dedicated fanbase than a lot of players who harass the shit out of each other.

1. I'm so rich and healthy, I get to eat chocolate every day!
2. As a result, I'm starting to get cavities.
3. Therefore, I need to throw away my toothbrush, in order to cultivate these cavities and make them even wider!
4. ???
5. Profit!

Guess I can't disagree with everyone else, in other words. That's some pretty goddamned severe "cart before the horse" mentality.

I think PR stands for Professional Retard. Sorry for the slur, but it had to be said.

Sniper Team 4:
I disagree. People like that tend to drive other people away from games. If the atmosphere is toxic, new players are going to feel completely unwelcome and abandon the game. They may also talk about their terrible experience, thus driving away more people who won't even give the game a chance because they don't want to deal with it.

Honestly, I think this guy is using the wrong term here. For most of us, 'Toxic' are the people who swear every other word, insult new players, sling racial and sexual slurs around, and basically just make the entire game completely unfriendly. It sounds like the the type of people this guy is talking about are die-hard fans, the ones that will still buy a Sonic or Mario game even though they already know it's not going to be good.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. I basically see toxic players as players who ruin the game for everyone else. Passion has nothing to do with that. Toxicity can come from griefing, trolling, or just a really really bad personality. I suppose the question is, how much toxicity should a developer tolerate and what kinds of toxicity should be off limits?

I haven't seen this much bullshit since that video of mcdonalds beef cows partying with laxatives.

really?
he thinks that retards doing nothing but messing up your game or just screaming every single offensive thing they can are more passionate and love the game more than the person who is calmly just trying to play the damn thing?

Are you serious? Assholes are never good for anything. They're a turn off to new players. They keep new people from buying your game and the give your game a bad reputation, like Dark Souls unfortunately has due to it's hardcore fans(mainly the kind of hardcore fan that jumps down your throat if you say that you didn't like something about the game). And you need the new players, because new players mean new fans, these new fans will replace the fans that got tired of the game. the only thing keeping toxic assholes around does is cause the game and its fanbase to stagnate.

I know that I'm not the only that feels like this, but the assholes in the fanbase are the entire reason that I refuse to give Dark Souls a second chance. Is it unfair to the developers of Dark Souls? Maybe, probably, but I have a finite number of heartbeats and like hell I'm going to waste them trying to navigate through the "passionate" fans of a game that I need help in.

I think it's a good thing if your game attracts assholes and people play regardless, because it means that they love the game enough to put up with those assholes. The fact that MOBAs are pretty dang famous for this and yet still manage to be absurdly popular I feel says a lot about the game's basic formula.

The assholes are definitely NOT a good thing in and of themselves, though. >.> Seriously man, wtf?

Wow. Great job orcs must die developers. Way to make sure noone ever buys your game atleast noone that isnt a screaming bitchy whiny asshole. Well hell atleast if this works there will be less shitstains to clog other games.

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here