Over 1,800 Gaming Professionals Condemn Hate Speech in Open Letter

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Racecarlock:
I'd like to make a point here.

Who didn't stop those trolls? Who didn't report them? Who didn't at least post a reply saying "No, it's not okay to say that, I don't care what medium of speech you're on"? Who refused to stop any of these trolls because "Well, there's just so many so let's not even try"? And then you're getting all mad at gaming journalism because it has the GALL to finally stand up and respond to the tide of shit we let them get away with?

I mean, you don't need to call the cops or anything. Just reply to them. Just say something back. "Don't feed the trolls" is not a good excuse to let them run wild and post hate with impunity. You wonder why this happened? It's because you didn't do shit.

People still smoking doesn't stop anti-smoking campaigns. People still dying in car crashes doesn't stop others from trying to prevent as many as possible. The point is, they're at least doing shit. And we're sitting around here feeling all sorry for ourselves because "Games journalism" actually decided to give a shit and respond to these assholes. Could they have used a better word than "Gamers"? Sure they could have. But we refused to call out toxicity when we saw it and now we're dealing with the fallout. You want to know why the press is against you right now? This is why.

Ok, so my inability to police the internet to the satisfaction of yourself and game journalists means that I do not deserve to have an aspect of my identity treated with respect. It also makes me clearly unworthy of expressing any views that illustrate my grievances with the state of gaming journalism. I am a "gamer". When someone fires shots at that, it hits me and many others. I have issued no death threats and made no threats or harassment to anyone. I am far from alone in that. Sacrificing the innocent in the name of attacking the guilty is unacceptable and is a far worse crime than the apathy we are being accused of on the matter of enabling harassers. Especially given the scale of guilty to innocents.

If they wish to call out harassers, that is their right. That is not what they did. They instead chose to draw a line in the sand and lambast "gamers", not "harassers". They chose to make me an enemy because of what I choose to do with my free time. If you think that harassment justifies what the "game journalists" are doing, then you could justify all manner of evil to anyone since every group has undesirable individuals. We did not promote harassers to be our representatives. Their is no grounds to assign us collective guilt by association.

As it stands now, the "gaming journalists" have not been the only side receiving harassment on this issue. But much like the rest of the "gamer" side of the story, there is no spotlight illustrating that in anywhere near the same level of coverage if any at all. The difference is that the "gamer" side of the story actually doesn't have nearly as much to gain by making this an issue of harassment compared to our other grievances. We have bigger fish to fry.

AlexKerscher:

AkaDad:

My deepest and sincerest apologies for not being calm after someone accuses me of lying. What was I thinking?

Thanks for suggesting the proper way to comment, I'll take that into consideration.

Anyone who wants to ignore the abuse that gamers, reviewers, and journalist have taken over the years can, that's up to you, but it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Jim Sterling still gets shit on for his Vanquish review.

I also shouldn't have to put up a disclaimer that says I'm not talking about all gamers, I mean come on.

I'm not saying you are a liar, friend. But I was saying you are wrong. Either someone lied to you, or you went a little lazy with your research, or just haven't really gave it much thought. Hey, this sort of things happen, right? That's why we have conversations with other people, so we can share our thoughts and compare notes and come to conclusions together. Otherwise what's the point of foruns, right?

Ahem. (This one got a lot longer than I planned).

People who voice their opinions publicly often "get shit" from others who disagree with 'em. In order to understand how this happens I will ask you to bear through a brief interlude about my nation's favorite hobby: soccer.

Why don't you see soccer managers whine about how Soccer Fandom is Dead and how Soccer Fans are the most horrible people on Earth? Mind you this is a fandom where people travel several miles, into foreign countries, to kill each other over their club. Not figuratively, literally. These people kill and die by the hundreds, in the whole world, every year.

Now all these people, the fans, the players, they all have twitter and instagram accounts nowdays. Like most (but not all) journalists, players sign contracts about expanding their personal media presence, their online relevance. They get hassled, they receive, every week, more harassment than Zoey Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian have ever received and will ever receive in their entire lives. Not to mention that week-in week-out they will have to perform great acts of physicality in front of a crowd of several thousand people who will scream and chant horrible insults at players, refs, and coaches. So, you know, they have to perform their job under a little pressure.

Why don't you see any of these people whining like a fucking pussy on Twitter about how they receive death threats (please refer to how soccer fans kill each other by the hundreds every year) from their fans, and how their fandom is the worst kind of people in the world?

Because they are professionals who are prepared to this. They have classes on how to handle social media, how to behave online, what to do when someone harasses you for doing your work in ways that are unpleasant to some people. And they act like fucking professionals.

Now let's get back to Game Journalists.

Game Journalists are not very good in what they do. They have little training on anything, they sometimes fail at doing their job correctly in one way or another, and most (but not all) do not have an academic background in journalism.

Let's take Stephen Titilo for an instance: the editor-in-chief in one of the biggest game news websites of the world proudly has a Master's degree on Journalism. In my professional area if you don't have a master's degree and at least two MBAs and dozens of publications nobody's even gonna call you back after reading your job application. Because, like any adult like yourself knows, serious business require people with preparation and who are armed with the best practices available on the market.

But on game journalism, you see, there's this paradigm that anybody can write and be a journalism. Because writing stuff that other people have done is something that you used to do on your homework back in high school, so anybody has some experience and knows how to do it properly, emmareet fellas? The general consensus seems to be that you don't really need to know how to do your job in order to perform it correctly.

Which brings us to the current events.

Nevermind that this whole shitstorm happened because the editor-in-chief of one of the biggest game journalism websites of the world let one of his writers publish an article about another one of his writer's girlfriend-ish without checking the sources (I'm talking about the article where a certain game developer was allegedly harassed by people from Wizardchan. Journalism 101, always attempt to contact all the involved parties), just take a look at how this so called professionals react to criticism, about how Sarkeesian is scared shitless of people having doxxed her, even though there little or no evidence of people killing each other on real life over this.

This is the kind of tantrum that people used to throw on Blogger, usually when another user criticized their picture years ago. This is the behavior of amateurs. Knowing how to deal with your fan base and especially how to deal with internet comments is part of the fucking job, and is something that every single "journalist" seems to suck really fucking bad at doing.

This thing that is happening, all these journalists "harassed", this really, really sucks for the individual people involved, but it's really fucking good for game journalism as a media. This is the time bigger media corporations like Gawker start throwing some money on training their employees on the basics of their roles, or to review their current "we're like a blog, only not" business model.

Now, while I can understand empathizing with the people involved (because I do empathize with 'em. I've seem smaller-scale similar shit at my office and it was brutal), while I support that people should always keep civil in conversations, I can't agree with your position that the public is at fault on this one. Sure, some people are not helping at all, but placing the blame on how the public because they got mad after going to the best restaurant in town and getting served a plateful of crap when they ordered the steak of truth, seems to me like trying to oversimplify something over-complicated on it's own nature.

I stopped reading at you're first sentence. Just the few examples I've provided shows way more abuse towards journalists than in the opposite direction. I could sit here for week and provide example after example of the abuse gamers dish out and you would probably ignore it all. You remind of the people who ignore all the scientific evidence and still claim that the earth is 6,000 years old. You know what you know and that's all you need to know.

I'm done talking with you.

erttheking:

NuclearKangaroo:

erttheking:

Question. Did you think that insulting me would make me more likely to read the thread? Because it didn't.

what the... he didnt insult you dude

hell last time i saw you, you seemed very bummed about all this, and it was in that thread, you should know better, you know most of us there tried to discuss respectfully

captcha: good morning!

atleast you seem better now

The "Shattering your world view" line didn't sit well with me.

Yeah...I should. I suppose I'm too stubborn for my own good. I think I'll take a break from these threads before I get myself depressed again.

Thank you.

no problem man

if you think thats the best for you, go ahead

to be fair there HAVE BEEN some hot heads in both sides, but that thread is super tame

"Hate Speech" is a meaningless, impossible-to-define marketing catchphrase.

A more apt title would be, "Game journalists sign open letter calling for censorship of their critics."

Forgive me, but this confuses me, what the hell is this petition supposed to accomplish? Yeah great it's a show of support, but ultimately it's pointless because it's too vague, broad, and undirected. It can't change jack-shit. We already have people actually *DOING THINGS* to fix this and expose people being assholes ( Example: GamersGate ). This seems like yet another empty wank of "ooh look how nice we are for supporting this Good Cause(tm)". Pointless.

AkaDad:

I stopped reading at you're first sentence. Just the few examples I've provided shows way more abuse towards journalists than in the opposite direction. I could sit here for week and provide example after example of the abuse gamers dish out and you would probably ignore it all. You remind of the people who ignore all the scientific evidence and still claim that the earth is 6,000 years old. You know what you know and that's all you need to know.

I'm done talking with you.

So that's it?

The wise, experienced man, is going to put his hands on his ears and sing tra la la I can't hear you? I expected you to at least hold to your bravado of wisdom and at try to engage in a proper discussion, but now I don't think it would be a bold guess to say that you're simply intimidated by the sheer length of my post.

Don't be lazy and you just might see that there is some worth in what I wrote. I promise you I haven't insulted your intelligence on my post. It's not like you're gonna waste more time reading it then I already wasted writing, right?

Don't be afraid. I promise if you change your mind after finishing it, it will be out of your own volition, and not because me and my buddies in the industry spun an entire narrative to manipulate you ; )

R0guy:

AkaDad:

I stopped reading at you're first sentence.

Yup, fanatic. That's ok buddy, stuff like Brad Wardell's 8 year old kid being threatened with rape after Kotaku falsely accused his dad of sexual harrassement, might challenge your confirmation bias too much for comfort!

This is the one thing I don't get in this whole debacle. Why are some people so invested in a point of view that is not even their own? Geez sometimes I feel like I'm trying to discuss religion with a fundie, the one thing I vowed to ever ever do in my life.

R0guy:

AkaDad:

I stopped reading at you're first sentence.

Yup, fanatic. That's ok buddy, stuff like Brad Wardell's 8 year old kid being threatened with rape after Kotaku falsely accused his dad of sexual harrassement, might challenge your confirmation bias too much for comfort!

How many times do I have to say that I don't approve of any type of harassment to satisfy you? Give me a number.

Now compare how many people who harassed that kid to how much harassment there's been toward gamers, feminists, and journalists. It's not comparable.

Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

AkaDad:

R0guy:

AkaDad:

I stopped reading at you're first sentence.

Yup, fanatic. That's ok buddy, stuff like Brad Wardell's 8 year old kid being threatened with rape after Kotaku falsely accused his dad of sexual harrassement, might challenge your confirmation bias too much for comfort!

How many times do I have to say that I don't approve of any type of harassment to satisfy you? Give me a number.

Now compare how many people who harassed that kid to how much harassment there's been toward gamers, feminists, and journalists. It's not comparable.

Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

Dude. We get it. You think swearing at people over the internet is a horrible atrocity and all these adults who are paid to deal with this shit have the self-assurance and emotional resilience of fourteen year olds.

Now seriously go read my post and you'll understand why people are pissed at game journalism in general.

AlexKerscher:

R0guy:

AkaDad:

I stopped reading at you're first sentence.

Yup, fanatic. That's ok buddy, stuff like Brad Wardell's 8 year old kid being threatened with rape after Kotaku falsely accused his dad of sexual harrassement, might challenge your confirmation bias too much for comfort!

This is the one thing I don't get in this whole debacle. Why are some people so invested in a point of view that is not even their own? Geez sometimes I feel like I'm trying to discuss religion with a fundie, the one thing I vowed to ever ever do in my life.

Beats the hell out of me man! Probably why we currently have 465 pages in the other thread.

R0guy:

AlexKerscher:

R0guy:

Yup, fanatic. That's ok buddy, stuff like Brad Wardell's 8 year old kid being threatened with rape after Kotaku falsely accused his dad of sexual harrassement, might challenge your confirmation bias too much for comfort!

This is the one thing I don't get in this whole debacle. Why are some people so invested in a point of view that is not even their own? Geez sometimes I feel like I'm trying to discuss religion with a fundie, the one thing I vowed to ever ever do in my life.

Beats the hell out of me man! Probably why we currently have 465 pages in the other thread.

Something something Plato's Cave.

(A Master of Rhetoric am I)

licktheenvelope:

erttheking:

licktheenvelope:

Note how it's not signed by Anita Sarkeesian... EDIT: Zoe Quinn on. 1 more. Hopefully that quells the extremists.

What does that have to do with anything? Why does everything about everything in gaming have to come back to those two nowadays?

There's no short answer to that. See the thread: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858347-Zoe-Quinn-and-the-surrounding-controversy?page=447

There's a number of issues of nepotism and corruption involving both Ms Sarkeesian and Ms Quinn and a certain PR agency.

from my own research yesterday:
actually silverstring media which people are claiming is a PR company is actually a feminist game developer that makes experimental games (which i tried a few and didnt particularly like) they dont actually represent those zoe or anita, although anita (i cant be bothered looking up how to spell her name again)is listed as an adviser to them and as such they do not perform PR duties for the gaming sites as people have been suggesting.

as far as i can tell someone read that zoe quinn slept with a PR rep and assumed the entire business was a PR company.

as for the open letter the thing people seem to be forgetting is that its not random consumers signing this, its actual game developers, i.e. the people who make the content we play and as such there is potential for making games more inclusive for people, more diverse and more interesting.

AkaDad:
Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

Because the rhetoric used gets them lumped in with the extremists, and they're rightfully miffed about that. As are reasonable people on the other side of the debate. In many digital, text-based debates on many subjects such behavior can be seen. It's really irritating.

AlexKerscher:

AkaDad:

R0guy:

Yup, fanatic. That's ok buddy, stuff like Brad Wardell's 8 year old kid being threatened with rape after Kotaku falsely accused his dad of sexual harrassement, might challenge your confirmation bias too much for comfort!

How many times do I have to say that I don't approve of any type of harassment to satisfy you? Give me a number.

Now compare how many people who harassed that kid to how much harassment there's been toward gamers, feminists, and journalists. It's not comparable.

Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

Dude. We get it. You think swearing at people over the internet is a horrible atrocity and all these adults who are paid to deal with this shit have the self-assurance and emotional resilience of fourteen year olds.

Now seriously go read my post and you'll understand why people are pissed at game journalism in general.

That's the thing, man, you don't get it. You believe my problem is that swearing is an atrocity. I never said anything like that.

It's like you completely ignored everything I said and came up with an argument I never made.

If after all I've said, you can't see the point I'm making then that's on you.

I can take different sides when it merits that. If and when journalists act unethically I'll be right there saying that's unacceptable and when gamers act like dicks I'm going to point that out too.

AlexKerscher:

R0guy:

AlexKerscher:

This is the one thing I don't get in this whole debacle. Why are some people so invested in a point of view that is not even their own? Geez sometimes I feel like I'm trying to discuss religion with a fundie, the one thing I vowed to ever ever do in my life.

Beats the hell out of me man! Probably why we currently have 465 pages in the other thread.

Something something Plato's Cave.

(A Master of Rhetoric am I)

Hehehehehehehe

Well I'd certainly rather be a basement-dweller than a bottom-of-the-cave-dweller! :))

Adultratedhydra:
Escapist remains silent for a week and then joins the legions of assholes shitting on the people who make their living with not one but two pieces squarely aimed at the gaming community rather than standing with it? Way to take a stand Escapist, seeing as you are clearly under the impression you would do fine without the gaming community seems you dont need to be on a certain whitelist anymore.

You don't make their living. AAA publishers make their living. And so long as they can take in the money doing actual corruption ( that none of you guys cared about until Quinn) things will go as normal.

Cowabungaa:

AkaDad:
Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

Because the rhetoric used gets them lumped in with the extremists, and they're rightfully miffed about that. As are reasonable people on the other side of the debate. In many digital, text-based debates on many subjects such behavior can be seen. It's really irritating.

That's what baffles me. I've never seen anyone say ALL gamers are dicks, yet some gamers are getting offended when clearly the discussion has been about dickish behavior, harassment, and abuse.

Why is it so hard to distinguish between the two? It's almost like it's intentional.

I'm in complete agreement. This needs to work both ways. Harassing speech comes from both camps.

AkaDad:

Cowabungaa:

AkaDad:
Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

Because the rhetoric used gets them lumped in with the extremists, and they're rightfully miffed about that. As are reasonable people on the other side of the debate. In many digital, text-based debates on many subjects such behavior can be seen. It's really irritating.

That's what baffles me. I've never seen anyone say ALL gamers are dicks, yet some gamers are getting offended when clearly the discussion has been about dickish behavior, harassment, and abuse.

Why is it so hard to distinguish between the two? It's almost like it's intentional.

In all fairness, it's the language that people choose to use. They say "Gamers", which is very general. No one says "all Gamers", but they use language that doesn't distinguish one gamer from another. But if they would say something like "some gamers", which very clearly doesn't include everyone, it wouldn't be an issue. You saw it all the time with that hashtag thing a while about... #yesallwomen? I think that was it. The vast majority of people who commented in favor of the campaign used the term "men". Which once again denotes a general that all or most men are guilty of x,y, and z. I didn't pay it any attention because I don't do the things outlined in a lot of the comments. But they could have clearly said "some men", separating the offenders from the non-offenders, it would never have been as big of an issue.

Edit: I almost forgot. The fact that there is a 140 character limit on Twitter is part of why there was no distinguishing language.

AlexKerscher:

AkaDad:

AlexKerscher:

Dude. We get it. You think swearing at people over the internet is a horrible atrocity and all these adults who are paid to deal with this shit have the self-assurance and emotional resilience of fourteen year olds.

Now seriously go read my post and you'll understand why people are pissed at game journalism in general.

That's the thing, man, you don't get it. You believe my problem is that swearing is an atrocity. I never said anything like that.

It's like you completely ignored everything I said and came up with an argument I never made.

If after all I've said, you can't see the point I'm making then that's on you.

I can take different sides when it merits that. If and when journalists act unethically I'll be right there saying that's unacceptable and when gamers act like dicks I'm going to point that out too.

A-HA! A-MOTHERFUCKING-HA!

So you were just being lazy! When my comment is not much longer than a tweet suddenly you muster the willpower to read it to the end.

Maybe this explains how your opinion seems to be so pro-journalists, it wouldn't surprise me if all your knowledge base on this controversy came from twitter.

Now who's-a done-a talking to who? Meesa, sir, donna-talka to you.

Considering that a tweet is 140 characters, your wall of text was more like 50 tweets.

I tried to be reasonable with you and you just insult me.

Goodbye and bless your heart.

A post of yours from another thread:

AkaDad:
As a gamer of close to 40 years, I've seen the way female gamers have been treated like 2nd class gamers. Whether it was in the arcades and now online. Some of harassment I've witnessed was disturbing.

The gaming industry, like other aspects of life have tipping points, and now that women and like-minded men are fighting back against those males, who think they can treat others badly, there's been so much whining, anger, and lashing out when they refuse to put up with the bullshit.

Don't blame feminists, blame the people who brought us to where we are, those people who thought it was OK to sexually harass and use racist and homophobic slurs.

For people who claim there's an agenda, there is and it's called progress.

If you don't think that there's enough balance, start your own gaming website and discuss the plight of the white, male gamer.

AkaDad:
My deepest and sincerest apologies for not being calm after someone accuses me of lying. What was I thinking? I also shouldn't have to put up a disclaimer that says I'm not talking about all gamers, I mean come on.

First off they didn't accuse you of lying, they accused you of being lazy and not listening to their side of the argument before using blanket statements. Completely different things. Secondly, we know you aren't talking about all gamers just dicks - or "the white, male gamer", as that's how that seems to have translated in your head. Now, as a white male gamer, I find that statement to be insulting. I've never felt that my place in the gaming community was in danger, but thank you for lumping me in there too with that blanket statement. Also, why is it only white male gamers? Misogyny isn't limited to only one race - women's rights in the Middle East for example are horrible and women have been killed for trying to improve them - so why are you trying to make it out like that?

AkaDad:
That's what baffles me. I've never seen anyone say ALL gamers are dicks, yet some gamers are getting offended when clearly the discussion has been about dickish behavior, harassment, and abuse.

Why is it so hard to distinguish between the two? It's almost like it's intentional.

Because people on at least one side don't want to distinguish between the two and would rather tar everyone against them with the same brush. Read the Jensen spoiler below and when you're done tell me you didn't get upset at that.

AkaDad:
Why are people that don't harass, say sexist and racist things getting so defensive when they aren't the people we're talking about?

Why? From the first page of this thread: K. Thor Jensen - (Videogames Journalist)

and Helena Horten - (Videogames Journalist for Vice)

I'm a gamer, I enjoy video games. As such, I'm a subhuman who needs to be exterminated (for the good of the Reich!). I'm a man, so I need to be killed because other men I'll never know or meet have said some truly disgusting shit. That's why I'm getting so defensive.

AkaDad:
Just because I didn't comment about Zoe Quinn or the guy that compared gamers to ISIS, it doesn't mean I'm on their side.

You're right, it doesn't and your overall moral stance is great. An end to harassment and racism and sexism would be a wonderful thing. Shame there's so much mud-slinging from both sides - hell, there's mud-slinging within both sides as people will yell at you even for disagreeing with them over small details.

Howsabout we take a deep breath and start over without the sweeping generalizations? Is that too much to ask? (I'm talking to everyone here not just you AkaDad)

licktheenvelope:

erttheking:

licktheenvelope:
Ugh... i'm glad the devs are paying attention but seriously they need to get the press to call off the social extremists.

Social extremists? The statement says "Diversity is good, please report harassment when you see it, make online communities a more fun place to be." What is so extreme about that?

Note how it's not signed by Anita Sarkeesian... EDIT: Zoe Quinn on. 1 more. Hopefully that quells the extremists.

Considering how Anita taking a shit is enough to warrant a 10 page tumor about her, do you honestly fucking think she is going to put her name on that list?

Dragonbums:

licktheenvelope:

erttheking:

Social extremists? The statement says "Diversity is good, please report harassment when you see it, make online communities a more fun place to be." What is so extreme about that?

Note how it's not signed by Anita Sarkeesian... EDIT: Zoe Quinn on. 1 more. Hopefully that quells the extremists.

Considering how Anita taking a shit is enough to warrant a 10 page tumor about her, do you honestly fucking think she is going to put her name on that list?

At that point, I think the real question is what does she have to lose by signing it?
She evacuated her home due to death threats; barring real harm or death, it can't really get any worse for her.

EDIT:
Found this gem of nonsense...

AkaDad:
I bet if you put all the stupid things games journalists have said then compared that to all the death threats and stupid things gamers have said just against Anita it wouldn't even be close.

...

Gamers have been treating reviewers and journalists like shit for so long it's not even comparable.

If you didn't engage in all the shitty behavior then I'm not talking about you, so don't bother me with your comments telling me how great you are and that it's only a handful of gamers that act like dicks.

Alright so...what's your point?
Is it to say that anonymous trolls and bigots will sling shit at anything they think is vulnerable?

If so, well congrats for stating the bloody obvious. Tell me something I don't know.

Is it to excuse the journalists who slung their own shit?
Well if so, I'm calling bullshit.

A per-capita comparison isn't going prove anything other than that journalists are outnumbered by anonymous nobodies. Nor does it justify their breaches in conduct.

For one, just because anon trolls throw more shit doesn't make the journalists' shit smell any nicer.

Second, and I ask you to forgive my presumption but...aren't journalists professionals?
Maybe, just MAYBE we should hold them to a higher standard than "Asshole Troll McNobody"?
Just a thought.

Kalezian:

Dreiko:
Over 2100 gamers have also condemned hate speech!

http://www.change.org/p/the-gaming-industry-please-stop-the-hate

Hurray for them too! Yay, gamers...umm...no?

Ok :(

nah, didn't you hear?

Fuck Gamers.

The Escapist isn't about gaming news, it's about pushing a SJW agenda that self victimizes women in gaming while making so many straw men that it should set up a factory.

Cause fuck Gamers, right? it's not like without gamers the games industry, and by proxy games journalism, wont exist, right?

I mean, that's just silly. If Gamers aren't buying games, then there wouldn't be a need for people to write about games...... OH. WAIT A SECOND.

That's a lot of accusations thrown at a website that was nice enough to keep open that 480+ page monstrosity for discussion long after other threads like it would of been locked after page 12.

Atmos Duality:

Dragonbums:

licktheenvelope:

Note how it's not signed by Anita Sarkeesian... EDIT: Zoe Quinn on. 1 more. Hopefully that quells the extremists.

Considering how Anita taking a shit is enough to warrant a 10 page tumor about her, do you honestly fucking think she is going to put her name on that list?

At that point, I think the real question is what does she have to lose by signing it?
She evacuated her home due to death threats; barring real harm or death, it can't really get any worse for her.

Probably. Considering how the harassment towards her has gone to real life levels of creepy. I mean seriously. You people going out on a witch hunt for every journalist that so much as gave this women a positive review once under the cloak of "journal integrity".

I mean sure, Zoe put her name on there (or allegedly it's her. I'm sure anyone can say Zoe Quinn and sign their name in the petition." But Anita will do well for herself just keeping out.

She's already got enough shit for posting yet another 20 minute monologue video.

Dragonbums:
You people going out on a witch hunt for every journalist that so much as gave this women a positive review once under the cloak of "journal integrity".

"You people"?
I guess broad generalizations and guilt-by-association is just the mode of the day now.

Unless that wasn't directed at me; it's difficult to tell with tensions running as high as they are and the direct-quote response.

KazeAizen:

They are. Give them a taste of their own medicine and all that.

Verlander:

They can dish it out, but they sure can't take it. It's pathetic really.

I...I don't know how to tell you guys this, but...

Expecting someone who purports to be a journalist or figurehead in the gaming community to hold themselves to a higher standard of ethics (ie. not going off on tantrums on their Twitters, calling for camps and such) than, say, that guy in League who called you a "Fucking Faggot," is not in any way indicative of an inability to take abuse.

We take abuse all the time. It just so happens that said abuse mostly comes from fellow gamers.

And, now, apparently from journalists too.

Atmos Duality:

Dragonbums:
You people going out on a witch hunt for every journalist that so much as gave this women a positive review once under the cloak of "journal integrity".

"You people"?
I guess broad generalizations and guilt-by-association is just the mode of the day now.

Unless that wasn't directed at me; it's difficult to tell with tensions running as high as they are and the direct-quote response.

...it wasn't directed at you.

Rocket Girl:

circularlogic88:

Rocket Girl:
Just to pull you up there - the term gamer isn't inclusive or exclusive. No more than, say, police officer or student. There was a time when women couldn't be police officers and African American's couldn't attend schools (I can provide sources if you would like them). So the terms police officer and student weren't inclusive and the terms themselves didn't mean "no blacks" or "no women" but none the less, people were excluded. See, it's not the title that is inclusive or exclusive, it's the community and the culture.

"Person" isn't all-inclusive today depending on which individual or group of people you wish to have define it. What's your point? Because it seems like you're being flippant for the sake of being flippant.

Could you show me which group you have seen saying person is not an inclusive term?

Furries. Faekin/otherkin.

Those are off the top of my head. It's arbitrary man. Honestly this is a dead end point, I shouldnt have even engaged, but here I am now. If whether or not "gamer" or "person" is "inclusive" is the crux of your position, it's probably not a good position.

Darkmantle:

Rocket Girl:

circularlogic88:

"Person" isn't all-inclusive today depending on which individual or group of people you wish to have define it. What's your point? Because it seems like you're being flippant for the sake of being flippant.

Could you show me which group you have seen saying person is not an inclusive term?

Furries. Faekin/otherkin.

Those are off the top of my head. It's arbitrary man. Honestly this is a dead end point, I shouldnt have even engaged, but here I am now. If whether or not "gamer" or "person" is "inclusive" is the crux of your position, it's probably not a good position.

Could you show me any such person claiming the term person isn't inclusive?

The crux of my argument was that there is a portion of the gaming community that either believes or contributes to the idea that many female gamers aren't gamers, because they don't play "real" games. Terms like "casual" and "fake" spring to mind. The person I was arguing with made a claim (that person is not inclusive) and I asked them to supply evidence of this claim.

Ok i now officialy dont know what is going on. When game developers start acting more friendly than everyone else i have to admit i think i got into some kind of alternate universe or something. I knew this was going to get big, but damn im proud of you internet.

LostGryphon:

KazeAizen:

They are. Give them a taste of their own medicine and all that.

Verlander:

They can dish it out, but they sure can't take it. It's pathetic really.

I...I don't know how to tell you guys this, but...

Expecting someone who purports to be a journalist or figurehead in the gaming community to hold themselves to a higher standard of ethics (ie. not going off on tantrums on their Twitters, calling for camps and such) than, say, that guy in League who called you a "Fucking Faggot," is not in any way indicative of an inability to take abuse.

We take abuse all the time. It just so happens that said abuse mostly comes from fellow gamers.

And, now, apparently from journalists too.

The people who are active get stuff done. Game journalists and the like have tried to be calm and either address this stuff in the past with reason or simply brushed it off as no big deal. The damn has broken now though. They are descending into the realm where the evil ones dwell and taken to their tactics because that's all that is left to them. They've tried being nice in the past and this particular guy. He's not even a games media person. He's a movie person who has always been very much this abrasive. Its bled into his world now and he's freaking pissed off about it. The reasonable people on the opposition have one option left to them. That is if you really want to make this about corruption or have very good reasons why feminism doesn't belong in games or rather why Anita does a terrible job. The only option left to the logical side of that coin is for them to duck and cover. Sort it out and bring your concerns out when the battle is over and the dust has cleared. That's why I'm utterly baffled in this whole situation. The people with brains, and I know their are, on the opposite side of the fence as me hasn't put together that trying to throw your voice in right now is suicide. You'll be taken down with everyone else.

Rocket Girl:

Darkmantle:

Rocket Girl:
Could you show me which group you have seen saying person is not an inclusive term?

Furries. Faekin/otherkin.

Those are off the top of my head. It's arbitrary man. Honestly this is a dead end point, I shouldnt have even engaged, but here I am now. If whether or not "gamer" or "person" is "inclusive" is the crux of your position, it's probably not a good position.

Could you show me any such person claiming the term person isn't inclusive?

The crux of my argument was that there is a portion of the gaming community that either believes or contributes to the idea that many female gamers aren't gamers, because they don't play "real" games. Terms like "casual" and "fake" spring to mind. The person I was arguing with made a claim (that person is not inclusive) and I asked them to supply evidence of this claim.

I just listed two broad groups that choose to not identify as "persons". the term would be, by definition, not inclusive to them.

This is still just a nitpick argument though.

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