FBI Can't Win: Apple Engineers Will Quit Before Unlocking iPhone

 Pages 1 2 NEXT
 

FBI Can't Win: Apple Engineers Will Quit Before Unlocking iPhone

FBI

Even if the FBI wins against Apple in federal court in the much-publicized legal battle involving the unlocking of an iPhone used by the San Bernardino mass murderers, the FBI will likely still lose the war. According to The New York Times, Apple engineers are prepared to quit their lucrative jobs rather than circumvent the encryption of the software that they built.

While this act of civil disobedience would appear to be extreme on the surface, it fits Apple's anti-establishment culture that dates back to beginning of the company with Steve Jobs at the helm.

"If the government tries to compel testimony or action from these engineers, good luck with that," remarked Jean-Louis Gassee, the former head of Apple engineering.

"It's an independent culture," he continued, "and a rebellious one."

Apple has already strongly hinted to the courts that their engineers would find it difficult to follow orders to hack the iPhone's encryption. Wrote an Apple lawyer in a recent legal brief: "Such conscription is fundamentally offensive to Apple's core principles and would pose a severe threat to the autonomy of Apple and its engineers."

CEO Tim Cook also pointed out the hypocrisy of the FBI's request in his original message to Apple customers: "The government is asking Apple to hack our own users and undermine decades of security advancements that protect our customers [...] The same engineers who built strong encryption into the iPhone to protect our users would, ironically, be ordered to weaken those protections and make our users less safe."

In a recent exclusive interview with The Escapist, legendary security software engineer turned outspoken government critic John McAfee said that the United States is "teetering on the brink of annihilation" due to the FBI's actions and their war with Apple on privacy.

"I just pray," said McAfee, "that our Supreme Court has the wisdom, the intelligence, and the insight to see that the FBI is asking to bring us into a dictatorial and horrific system in which none of us want to live."

Source: The New York Times

Permalink

That is some great resolve by those engineers. I applaud them. "From our cold, dead hands," appears to be the motto. Luckily, I'm sure all of them can easily land a new position with another company should push come to "fuck you".

Gorrath:
That is some great resolve by those engineers. I applaud them. "From our cold, dead hands," appears to be the motto. Luckily, I'm sure all of them can easily land a new position with another company should push come to "fuck you".

They probably have a system in place to move them temporarily, until it all blows over. Apple would not be foolish enough to permanently let go their top engineers.

Federal Bureau of Investigation.

F.B.I.

Central Intelligence Agency.

C.I.A.

Are you seriously telling me that these two GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, who have the same objectives in this terrorist investigation, aren't able to work together to hack a cell phone? Really?!

Is our government that inept that all we have now working for us is bureaucratic windbags (or douchebags?) that serve no purpose other than to argue in hearings and courtrooms? I'm more than certain that not only are there some highly trained programmers within the Air Force (the test alone to get into the program is insane). There is also the option of contracting out private contractors to do the hack as well.

This is just pure political poppycock in order to try to make precedence in order to make new laws. It is ridiculous!

I have to laugh at some things.. Apple is an "independent culture" and a "rebellious one"... haha, no. It's not.

But besides that, I couldn't agree more. It's fuckin' ridiculous that the FBI is doing this and insisting that the security be undermined.

Someone help me understand something.. I get both sides. But..

If these people were terrorists can't they just unlock those phones and provide the data, then destroy the methods they used to unlock them assuming they don't already possess the ability to circumvent their own designs? Or do they want the ability to do so given to them on whoever they want? Is it specifically known? I assume they want a tool made for their personal use.. In which case I can see Apple's resistance. Maybe they should compromise and do it just for this one phone or incident..

What if they had the cell phone of some crazy sick bastard who kidnapped a bus full of children and hid them somewhere only to get himself killed by authorities, and the only possible way to find them would be hacking his phone. Would they still say tough luck - our principals are worth more than lives?

Baresark:
I have to laugh at some things.. Apple is an "independent culture" and a "rebellious one"... haha, no. It's not.

Their own style of rebellion.
Uniform, sleek and somewhat regimented, but a rebellion of sorts.
Well, at least different from the other way of doing things.

Gorrath:
That is some great resolve by those engineers.

It is.
Have to respect that.

I do have part of me worrying that if it comes to court orders to open the system, they might come with punitive elements should someone refuse.
If that is the case though, I hope sense sees through and anything the engineers are protected from anything they're threatened with.

I can believe that, just a second after they quit they would be hit up by a quadrillion job offers by Samsung, Sony, etc.

BoogieManFL:
Someone help me understand something.. I get both sides. But..

If these people were terrorists can't they just unlock those phones and provide the data, then destroy the methods they used to unlock them assuming they don't already possess the ability to circumvent their own designs? Or do they want the ability to do so given to them on whoever they want? Is it specifically known? I assume they want a tool made for their personal use.. In which case I can see Apple's resistance. Maybe they should compromise and do it just for this one phone or incident..

What if they had the cell phone of some crazy sick bastard who kidnapped a bus full of children and hid them somewhere only to get himself killed by authorities, and the only possible way to find them would be hacking his phone. Would they still say tough luck - our principals are worth more than lives?

But that's the rub. Let's say it was that easy. There is already a prosecutor in another state (I think New York) that has stated he has some 150 cell phones that he can't get into. Supposedly, some of these phones are connected to some serious crimes, including murder. So, if Apple unlocks the phone for the FBI, do you think this prosecutor will stand idly by and not ask to use the same software? How can Apple refuse? And then what prevents other prosecutors from doing the same.

And now the genie is out of the bottle. It wouldn't be hard for hackers to get their hands on this same tool and use it to crack people's cell phones. And that is assuming that the government isn't asking Apple to make a backdoor that they can easily access at any given time, which would be like a screen door on a submarine when it comes to preventing hackers from getting into people's phones.

Apple is concerned about their security first and foremost. If their security is weakened, then they risk losing tons of money from upset consumers who have been hacked.

BoogieManFL:
Someone help me understand something.. I get both sides. But..

If these people were terrorists can't they just unlock those phones and provide the data, then destroy the methods they used to unlock them assuming they don't already possess the ability to circumvent their own designs? Or do they want the ability to do so given to them on whoever they want? Is it specifically known? I assume they want a tool made for their personal use.. In which case I can see Apple's resistance. Maybe they should compromise and do it just for this one phone or incident..

What if they had the cell phone of some crazy sick bastard who kidnapped a bus full of children and hid them somewhere only to get himself killed by authorities, and the only possible way to find them would be hacking his phone. Would they still say tough luck - our principals are worth more than lives?

Actually if the cops had contacted apple to start with then apple could have gotten into the phone for them. But they were fucking around trying to get in and locked the device. Now its encrypyed with some quite strong encryption and apple never put in a backdoor into the software. I'm no expert but I think for them to have a hope of getting into the phone at all they would have to come out with some sort of software update with a backdoor into it, which would hurt the strength of the encryption, assuming the phone will accept updates when its locked down.

Then the cops need to get a warrant quick and let apple get into the device without locking it.

BoogieManFL:

What if they had the cell phone of some crazy sick bastard who kidnapped a bus full of children and hid them somewhere only to get himself killed by authorities, and the only possible way to find them would be hacking his phone. Would they still say tough luck - our principals are worth more than lives?

"what if" situations are the cause to blame for a lot of wars and very stupid decisions throughout humanity. How about we focus on the here-and-now within reality's setting, m'kay? Besides, I highly doubt that the phone would be the only possible way to finding the kids. First off a thorough investigation would track last locations of the bus sighted, and manhunts would ensue within that region. Now without unlocking the phone, they can also pinpoint the closest towers it connected to during such and such time to further help locate the missing kids. Then, good old fashioned police work. There is NO miracle hiding behind technology; especially a measly cell phone.

This case is about the FBI wanting to hack the cell phone to try to further investigate OTHER people this already established terrorist was talking to and to find out if they're part of a terrorist cell. This isn't a bomb on a trigger. This is basically them wanting to circumvent system to try to track other people through this person's phone.

The worst part of this that is being downplayed is that the FBI gave advice to the supervisor of the owner of the phone to lock the dang thing in the first place. It is their own fault that they cannot get into it. That is the rub that is killing this case.

I'd love to see this happen. The FBI has been obsessed with getting back doors in tech products for years before this case even happened. If they don't see the implications of weakening security on worldwide products, Apple really should flip the table on the FBI. The engineers will likely get a nice severance package and be prime candidates for a new job or be hired right back at Apple as soon as this issue disappears.

Saltyk:
But that's the rub. Let's say it was that easy. There is already a prosecutor in another state (I think New York) that has stated he has some 150 cell phones that he can't get into. Supposedly, some of these phones are connected to some serious crimes, including murder. So, if Apple unlocks the phone for the FBI, do you think this prosecutor will stand idly by and not ask to use the same software? How can Apple refuse? And then what prevents other prosecutors from doing the same.

Indeed. That is what I'm worried about. If Apple does comply with the demands, it would set a precedent for the government to ask a tech company to make a hacking tool or weaken the security of a product whenever they come across a case like this.

Worgen:
Actually if the cops had contacted apple to start with then apple could have gotten into the phone for them. But they were fucking around trying to get in and locked the device. Now its encrypyed with some quite strong encryption and apple never put in a backdoor into the software.

Is that really what happened? If so, the FBI just played into the film trope of being the idiots that screw up something when the tech guru walks out of the room. Of course, this doesn't surprise me much. The one person on this case that mentioned how iPhone encryption works was probably ignored.

Civil disobedience isn't all that impressive when you just threaten it, but I am still slightly moved by these engineers. However, I believe that the ability to access mobile devices would be important to most law enforcement agencies, especially if the owners are dead, or otherwise incapable of protesting.
The main issue, in my opinion, is that the FBI desires the ability to wirelessly unlock phones, an ability that would be altogether too much of an invasion of privacy. Had they instead requested the ability to access phones from a series of computers on a closed network I would've found the suggestion more reasonable.

Should worst come to worst I hope that the engineers do whatever they find best, and if that means civil disobedience I hope they accept the consequences, after all they would still be defying a court order.

Well Tim Cook better get used to to spending his time in jail and Apple will have to pay daily fines until they fulfil the warrant. Its contempt of court. That means judges can send Cook to jail and can impose unlimited daily fines until Apple fulfills the court order.

Bob_McMillan:
I can believe that, just a second after they quit they would be hit up by a quadrillion job offers by Samsung, Sony, etc.

That's why they call it job security, I guess.

OT: And I guess an Apple a day keeps the FBI away.

Albino Boo:
Well Tim Cook better get used to to spending his time in jail and Apple will have to pay daily fines until they fulfil the warrant. Its contempt of court. That means judges can send Cook to jail and can impose unlimited daily fines until Apple fulfills the court order.

Apple already owes billions in back taxes. What's a few hundred million in fines?

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/15/apple-european-commission-ruling-back-taxes-ireland

It's hardly as though Apple haven't thought this matter through in financial terms. They'll have to decide whether or not to jump off this bridge when they come to it. They've lost nothing in challenging the U.S. federal government so far; worst case scenario is Apple execs cave at the last second, and still pay little to nothing for the delay.

Between the loss of consumer confidence in Microsoft due to Windows 10 being self-installing spyware, and Apple giving their customers every cause to trust Apple brand security, this crisis may be an opportunity for greater market share is disguise. Screw the fines, there's profit being had in telling the FBI to go play with themselves!

Deathfish15:
Federal Bureau of Investigation.

F.B.I.

Central Intelligence Agency.

C.I.A.

Are you seriously telling me that these two GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, who have the same objectives in this terrorist investigation, aren't able to work together to hack a cell phone? Really?!

Is our government that inept that all we have now working for us is bureaucratic windbags (or douchebags?) that serve no purpose other than to argue in hearings and courtrooms? I'm more than certain that not only are there some highly trained programmers within the Air Force (the test alone to get into the program is insane). There is also the option of contracting out private contractors to do the hack as well.

This is just pure political poppycock in order to try to make precedence in order to make new laws. It is ridiculous!

The problem is that after 10 failed attempts, the iphone will erase all the data. They used to just plug it into a supercomputer and have it burn through combinations, but they can't do that anymore for the above reason. Additionally, even if the government could make a program, only Apple is capable of pushing through the update that would be required. So it's not just an issue of 'hacking' into it. Besides, America could have easily allowed the government to have a backdoor into such things, but nobody liked it, so it didn't happen. A lot of the same people complaining about Apple now were complaining about Clipper Chip. So you know. That's capitalism.

Deathfish15:
Are you seriously telling me that these two GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, who have the same objectives in this terrorist investigation, aren't able to work together to hack a cell phone? Really?!

They tried to use Google to look for answers, but the websites they were directed to kept installing malware on their computers.

Joseph Shrike:

Deathfish15:
Federal Bureau of Investigation.

F.B.I.

Central Intelligence Agency.

C.I.A.

Are you seriously telling me that these two GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, who have the same objectives in this terrorist investigation, aren't able to work together to hack a cell phone? Really?!

Is our government that inept that all we have now working for us is bureaucratic windbags (or douchebags?) that serve no purpose other than to argue in hearings and courtrooms? I'm more than certain that not only are there some highly trained programmers within the Air Force (the test alone to get into the program is insane). There is also the option of contracting out private contractors to do the hack as well.

This is just pure political poppycock in order to try to make precedence in order to make new laws. It is ridiculous!

The problem is that after 10 failed attempts, the iphone will erase all the data. They used to just plug it into a supercomputer and have it burn through combinations, but they can't do that anymore for the above reason. Additionally, even if the government could make a program, only Apple is capable of pushing through the update that would be required. So it's not just an issue of 'hacking' into it. Besides, America could have easily allowed the government to have a backdoor into such things, but nobody liked it, so it didn't happen. A lot of the same people complaining about Apple now were complaining about Clipper Chip. So you know. That's capitalism.

Here's what I don't understand though: I'm no expert on this myself but I've worked with plenty who are: isn't it possible that they can simply run a data recovery tool on the phone after the wipe has occurred and the device is restored to it's factory defaults? Am I to believe that Apple have developed an erasure technology that leaves NOTHING recoverable by data security experts?

Wiggum Esquilax:

Albino Boo:
Well Tim Cook better get used to to spending his time in jail and Apple will have to pay daily fines until they fulfil the warrant. Its contempt of court. That means judges can send Cook to jail and can impose unlimited daily fines until Apple fulfills the court order.

Apple already owes billions in back taxes. What's a few hundred million in fines?

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/15/apple-european-commission-ruling-back-taxes-ireland

It's hardly as though Apple haven't thought this matter through in financial terms. They'll have to decide whether or not to jump off this bridge when they come to it. They've lost nothing in challenging the U.S. federal government so far; worst case scenario is Apple execs cave at the last second, and still pay little to nothing for the delay.

Between the loss of consumer confidence in Microsoft due to Windows 10 being self-installing spyware, and Apple giving their customers every cause to trust Apple brand security, this crisis may be an opportunity for greater market share is disguise. Screw the fines, there's profit being had in telling the FBI to go play with themselves!

The european commission decision had already resulted in changes in Apple's tax structures and agreements with various finance ministries over taxes. Apple is not alone in that Google has made the same changes. That does not compare to the ability to impose a 1 billion dollar a day fine, which is more than possible over contempt of court. Apple can be literally bankrupted if it does not comply with a court order and its senior executives can go to jail for an unlimited period.

In addition there is no loss in consumer confidence in Windows because it's averaging 1.35 million installs a day. A few people complaining on twitter isnt reflective of the real world. Remember the COD boycotts.

Gordon_4:

Joseph Shrike:

Deathfish15:
Federal Bureau of Investigation.

F.B.I.

Central Intelligence Agency.

C.I.A.

Are you seriously telling me that these two GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, who have the same objectives in this terrorist investigation, aren't able to work together to hack a cell phone? Really?!

Is our government that inept that all we have now working for us is bureaucratic windbags (or douchebags?) that serve no purpose other than to argue in hearings and courtrooms? I'm more than certain that not only are there some highly trained programmers within the Air Force (the test alone to get into the program is insane). There is also the option of contracting out private contractors to do the hack as well.

This is just pure political poppycock in order to try to make precedence in order to make new laws. It is ridiculous!

The problem is that after 10 failed attempts, the iphone will erase all the data. They used to just plug it into a supercomputer and have it burn through combinations, but they can't do that anymore for the above reason. Additionally, even if the government could make a program, only Apple is capable of pushing through the update that would be required. So it's not just an issue of 'hacking' into it. Besides, America could have easily allowed the government to have a backdoor into such things, but nobody liked it, so it didn't happen. A lot of the same people complaining about Apple now were complaining about Clipper Chip. So you know. That's capitalism.

Here's what I don't understand though: I'm no expert on this myself but I've worked with plenty who are: isn't it possible that they can simply run a data recovery tool on the phone after the wipe has occurred and the device is restored to it's factory defaults? Am I to believe that Apple have developed an erasure technology that leaves NOTHING recoverable by data security experts?

Quite possibly. My understanding of how this works is that every file on a computer (which cellphones are too) has a header that describes what it is, where it begins, and where it ends in the storage. When you "delete" something, all it's doing is erasing the header as it saves time and cycles (which matters for solid state storage). A data recovery program just makes educated guesses as to the nature of the header for a data block. A proper formatting of the storage would leave a recovery program with far more work to do. I don't think there even is a way to recover formatted ss storage. But I'm not exactly an expert either.

I do not like Apple normally but here, in this instance, I side with them. Its a complex situation but a government backdoor into security just leads to that key getting distributed to the people who nobody wants to arm it with.

Or (in full tin-foil hat mode) the intelligence services are fully capable of hacking the phones and this is just a trick to get terrorists to buy I-phones thinking this will render their antics untouchable (not sure if Apple is in on this or not)

Albino Boo:

Wiggum Esquilax:

Albino Boo:
Well Tim Cook better get used to to spending his time in jail and Apple will have to pay daily fines until they fulfil the warrant. Its contempt of court. That means judges can send Cook to jail and can impose unlimited daily fines until Apple fulfills the court order.

Apple already owes billions in back taxes. What's a few hundred million in fines?

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/15/apple-european-commission-ruling-back-taxes-ireland

It's hardly as though Apple haven't thought this matter through in financial terms. They'll have to decide whether or not to jump off this bridge when they come to it. They've lost nothing in challenging the U.S. federal government so far; worst case scenario is Apple execs cave at the last second, and still pay little to nothing for the delay.

Between the loss of consumer confidence in Microsoft due to Windows 10 being self-installing spyware, and Apple giving their customers every cause to trust Apple brand security, this crisis may be an opportunity for greater market share is disguise. Screw the fines, there's profit being had in telling the FBI to go play with themselves!

The european commission decision had already resulted in changes in Apple's tax structures and agreements with various finance ministries over taxes. Apple is not alone in that Google has made the same changes. That does not compare to the ability to impose a 1 billion dollar a day fine, which is more than possible over contempt of court. Apple can be literally bankrupted if it does not comply with a court order and its senior executives can go to jail for an unlimited period.

In addition there is no loss in consumer confidence in Windows because it's averaging 1.35 million installs a day. A few people complaining on twitter isnt reflective of the real world. Remember the COD boycotts.

Or they just leave. Not have their headquarter in the usa. America not a popular country anymore. So pick up move to Sweden since if they do something as stupid as that it be cheaper. Sure they can throw some people in jail. However Apple can also make there life hell if they crack the phone. Make it where they never work in the tech industry again plus lost of severance package. So all in all Apple has the money to tell the US court to lick a lamp post in winter. sure they can fine apple as long as apple has office in the usa. Don't forget the internet a thing and buying a phone online not that hard.

Redlin5:
I do not like Apple normally but here, in this instance, I side with them. Its a complex situation but a government backdoor into security just leads to that key getting distributed to the people who nobody wants to arm it with.

But that's not even what they're asking for.

Gordon_4:
Here's what I don't understand though: I'm no expert on this myself but I've worked with plenty who are: isn't it possible that they can simply run a data recovery tool on the phone after the wipe has occurred and the device is restored to it's factory defaults? Am I to believe that Apple have developed an erasure technology that leaves NOTHING recoverable by data security experts?

Very easily. Normally, when a file is deleted, you just remove the directory entry for the file, which contains some metadata on the file, but more importantly: where you can find the file on the disc. This means that all the actual data is still there. This kind of deletion is fairly doable for software to backwards engineer: you start looking for blocks of data on the disk which are non-random and attempt to figure out which blocks form a coherent thing together.

However, a good factory reset doesn't just remove the entire list of "you can find these files here", but also overwrites all the data in those files with either random bits, or just 1s or 0s. This way, it's more or less impossible to get the data back, since it's actually overwritten.

Dandymanx:
Or (in full tin-foil hat mode) the intelligence services are fully capable of hacking the phones and this is just a trick to get terrorists to buy I-phones thinking this will render their antics untouchable (not sure if Apple is in on this or not)

Or worse yet it could be a trick that both Apple and the government are in on in order to see what part of the civilian population sides with Apple so that these people can then be added to the "anti-government" watchlist.

IceStar100:

Or they just leave. Not have their headquarter in the usa. America not a popular country anymore. So pick up move to Sweden since if they do something as stupid as that it be cheaper. Sure they can throw some people in jail. However Apple can also make there life hell if they crack the phone. Make it where they never work in the tech industry again plus lost of severance package. So all in all Apple has the money to tell the US court to lick a lamp post in winter. sure they can fine apple as long as apple has office in the usa. Don't forget the internet a thing and buying a phone online not that hard.

All the US institutional investors that ACTUALLY own Apple would have to vote to delist from the US stock exchange. In addition the US government can pursue a debt action against Apple anywhere in the world. Furthermore the US government can seize goods to the value of the fine, effectively ended Apple's ability to do business in the largest richest market in the world . The US government also has the power to exclude any Bank that operates in the US from doing business with Apple. The US government has excluded Iran and partially excluded Russia. Apple is small beer in comparison.

The reality is that the shareholders will fire Tim Cook and replace him with someone who will comply with a court order rather than see the value of their investment destroyed. If Apple loses its legal fight then it will have to comply or the face the full financial power of the US government. Whatever the rights and wrong of the issue, no US government will allow a large company to disobey a court order. Its sets a precedent for other companies to ignore US law, which goes way beyond this case.

Albino Boo:

IceStar100:

Or they just leave. Not have their headquarter in the usa. America not a popular country anymore. So pick up move to Sweden since if they do something as stupid as that it be cheaper. Sure they can throw some people in jail. However Apple can also make there life hell if they crack the phone. Make it where they never work in the tech industry again plus lost of severance package. So all in all Apple has the money to tell the US court to lick a lamp post in winter. sure they can fine apple as long as apple has office in the usa. Don't forget the internet a thing and buying a phone online not that hard.

All the US institutional investors that ACTUALLY own Apple would have to vote to delist from the US stock exchange. In addition the US government can pursue a debt action against Apple anywhere in the world. Furthermore the US government can seize goods to the value of the fine, effectively ended Apple's ability to do business in the largest richest market in the world . The US government also has the power to exclude any Bank that operates in the US from doing business with Apple. The US government has excluded Iran and partially excluded Russia. Apple is small beer in comparison.

The reality is that the shareholders will fire Tim Cook and replace him with someone who will comply with a court order rather than see the value of their investment destroyed. If Apple loses its legal fight then it will have to comply or the face the full financial power of the US government. Whatever the rights and wrong of the issue, no US government will allow a large company to disobey a court order. Its sets a precedent for other companies to ignore US law, which goes way beyond this case.

The implications of any kind of remote uploadable master key software the likes of which they're asking for are also incredibly dangerous. There is no such thing as a security exploit that exists only for the good guys and all it will ever take is a single leak, then all iOS users are fucked. A security breach of this magnitude would also ruin the shareholders investments because it would make the devices defacto untrustworthy and dangerous.

The FBI's request in unreasonable and because of their own ineptitude from what I've gathered. They should just eat some shit, let the phone wipe itself and recover the data that way.

Gordon_4:

Albino Boo:

IceStar100:

Or they just leave. Not have their headquarter in the usa. America not a popular country anymore. So pick up move to Sweden since if they do something as stupid as that it be cheaper. Sure they can throw some people in jail. However Apple can also make there life hell if they crack the phone. Make it where they never work in the tech industry again plus lost of severance package. So all in all Apple has the money to tell the US court to lick a lamp post in winter. sure they can fine apple as long as apple has office in the usa. Don't forget the internet a thing and buying a phone online not that hard.

All the US institutional investors that ACTUALLY own Apple would have to vote to delist from the US stock exchange. In addition the US government can pursue a debt action against Apple anywhere in the world. Furthermore the US government can seize goods to the value of the fine, effectively ended Apple's ability to do business in the largest richest market in the world . The US government also has the power to exclude any Bank that operates in the US from doing business with Apple. The US government has excluded Iran and partially excluded Russia. Apple is small beer in comparison.

The reality is that the shareholders will fire Tim Cook and replace him with someone who will comply with a court order rather than see the value of their investment destroyed. If Apple loses its legal fight then it will have to comply or the face the full financial power of the US government. Whatever the rights and wrong of the issue, no US government will allow a large company to disobey a court order. Its sets a precedent for other companies to ignore US law, which goes way beyond this case.

The implications of any kind of remote uploadable master key software the likes of which they're asking for are also incredibly dangerous. There is no such thing as a security exploit that exists only for the good guys and all it will ever take is a single leak, then all iOS users are fucked. A security breach of this magnitude would also ruin the shareholders investments because it would make the devices defacto untrustworthy and dangerous.

The FBI's request in unreasonable and because of their own ineptitude from what I've gathered. They should just eat some shit, let the phone wipe itself and recover the data that way.

That's Apple's opinion but Apple's opinion does not have the same weight as that of a judge looking at US Law. The law of the United States is made by individuals that are democratically elected and what Apple is trying to do is to impose Tim Cook's opinion on those democratically elected law makers. Tim Cook has the option of standing for office and changing the law, what he cannot do is ignore the law because he thinks it's wrong. What happens when another company decides that company taxes are too high and just simply stops paying them. What happens if a drugs company decides that safety test aren't needed? Apple not complying with a court order becomes a fundamental battle about whether or not large companies are subject to law of the land. That's not a fight any US government can afford to lose.

Albino Boo:

Gordon_4:

Albino Boo:

All the US institutional investors that ACTUALLY own Apple would have to vote to delist from the US stock exchange. In addition the US government can pursue a debt action against Apple anywhere in the world. Furthermore the US government can seize goods to the value of the fine, effectively ended Apple's ability to do business in the largest richest market in the world . The US government also has the power to exclude any Bank that operates in the US from doing business with Apple. The US government has excluded Iran and partially excluded Russia. Apple is small beer in comparison.

The reality is that the shareholders will fire Tim Cook and replace him with someone who will comply with a court order rather than see the value of their investment destroyed. If Apple loses its legal fight then it will have to comply or the face the full financial power of the US government. Whatever the rights and wrong of the issue, no US government will allow a large company to disobey a court order. Its sets a precedent for other companies to ignore US law, which goes way beyond this case.

The implications of any kind of remote uploadable master key software the likes of which they're asking for are also incredibly dangerous. There is no such thing as a security exploit that exists only for the good guys and all it will ever take is a single leak, then all iOS users are fucked. A security breach of this magnitude would also ruin the shareholders investments because it would make the devices defacto untrustworthy and dangerous.

The FBI's request in unreasonable and because of their own ineptitude from what I've gathered. They should just eat some shit, let the phone wipe itself and recover the data that way.

That's Apple's opinion but Apple's opinion does not have the same weight as that of a judge looking at US Law. The law of the United States is made by individuals that are democratically elected and what Apple is trying to do is to impose Tim Cook's opinion on those democratically elected law makers. Tim Cook has the option of standing for office and changing the law, what he cannot do is ignore the law because he thinks it's wrong. What happens when another company decides that company taxes are too high and just simply stops paying them. What happens if a drugs company decides that safety test aren't needed? Apple not complying with a court order becomes a fundamental battle about whether or not large companies are subject to law of the land. That's not a fight any US government can afford to lose.

My understanding is that there's no current law that means Apple are required to give over such a key and the FBI is seeking a legal injunction to make them do it and that's where the challenge is being made - on this single matter. Tax law is current and standing, safety tests are current and standing. The FBI swinging it's dick and asking them to compromise over a billion devices because they let the fucking intern try and guess the code or something isn't enshrined in law that I'm aware of. If all they want is this single phone cracked, I'm confident Apple would toil night and day to unlock it for them and hand it over after they're done.

you cant expect the fbi would actually keep this safe. not long ago they had all the personal records of every agent including undercover ones stolen and uploaded by a 15yo.

the moment the backdoor was agreed to you are basically waving a huge sign to hackers that says there is a backdoor go look for it

Gordon_4:

My understanding is that there's no current law that means Apple are required to give over such a key and the FBI is seeking a legal injunction to make them do it and that's where the challenge is being made - on this single matter. Tax law is current and standing, safety tests are current and standing. The FBI swinging it's dick and asking them to compromise over a billion devices because they let the fucking intern try and guess the code or something isn't enshrined in law that I'm aware of. If all they want is this single phone cracked, I'm confident Apple would toil night and day to unlock it for them and hand it over after they're done.

Every single civil and criminal law judgment rests on the ability of the court to enforce its judgment. You are allowed to appeal the decision but you are not allowed to ignore a court order otherwise there is no law. If a court orders you to do something its do it or else. The law is made the democratically elected representatives of the people and interpreted by the courts. If the court's decision goes against you have to comply or the courts will escalate the sanctions against Apple until Apple ceases to exist or it complies. To do anything else is saying that large companies can ignore the law if they disagree with it. The courts have no choice but to defend the principle of its judgements have to be complied with, if doesn't lawyers for all the other companies can use the same legal arguments to ignore other court orders. What happens if Walmart says paying company taxes is fundamentally offensive to walmart's core principles and would pose a severe threat to the autonomy of Walmart. Once you accept the principle in one case you create a precedent that can be used in other cases.

Righty ho. Sooo... Snowden claims this inability from the FBI is bullshit and their intentions are not what they claim;

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/09/edward-snowden-fbi-san-bernardino-iphone-bullshit-nsa-apple

Go team freedom! Fuck those potential terrorist victims who could be saved if contents of that phone would lead to other terrorists!

It's so hard to strictly regulate conditions and terms when contents of electronic devices are to be accessed (like, "8.3. Communication device manufacturers are to provide access to communication devices owned by people convicted for crimes described by articles XXXX of Criminal Code if such devices were in use by specified subject in period of preparation for and implementation of crimes in question" ) I can't imagine it being done, especially in a country where it was (or is?) legal to "listen" anyone without any permission =)

Gordon_4:

Joseph Shrike:

Deathfish15:
Federal Bureau of Investigation.

F.B.I.

Central Intelligence Agency.

C.I.A.

Are you seriously telling me that these two GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, who have the same objectives in this terrorist investigation, aren't able to work together to hack a cell phone? Really?!

Is our government that inept that all we have now working for us is bureaucratic windbags (or douchebags?) that serve no purpose other than to argue in hearings and courtrooms? I'm more than certain that not only are there some highly trained programmers within the Air Force (the test alone to get into the program is insane). There is also the option of contracting out private contractors to do the hack as well.

This is just pure political poppycock in order to try to make precedence in order to make new laws. It is ridiculous!

The problem is that after 10 failed attempts, the iphone will erase all the data. They used to just plug it into a supercomputer and have it burn through combinations, but they can't do that anymore for the above reason. Additionally, even if the government could make a program, only Apple is capable of pushing through the update that would be required. So it's not just an issue of 'hacking' into it. Besides, America could have easily allowed the government to have a backdoor into such things, but nobody liked it, so it didn't happen. A lot of the same people complaining about Apple now were complaining about Clipper Chip. So you know. That's capitalism.

Here's what I don't understand though: I'm no expert on this myself but I've worked with plenty who are: isn't it possible that they can simply run a data recovery tool on the phone after the wipe has occurred and the device is restored to it's factory defaults? Am I to believe that Apple have developed an erasure technology that leaves NOTHING recoverable by data security experts?

I think they designed the kill program to literally kill the phone. Its a good means of preventing phone theft since otherwise you can just restore it to factory and resell it. But if its got a remote kill or so then suddenly its value as a stolen product goes way down.

 Pages 1 2 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here