Do you like having to crouch in stealth games?

I don't find it fun. It's too slow. In MGS1 and 2, you could just run up behind enemies. Unless there was a puddle or cracked glass on the floor. I liked that. Then Splinter Cell came out and the later MGS games had enemies turn around when you ran behind them. The stalking with the D pad in MGS3 wasn't much fun either. I seem to remember that you stalked slower than the enemies walked. In reality, crouching does not muffle your footsteps. I think crouching should be used more for line of sight, like if there's a low object you can hide behind.

Yes, I enjoy crouching in stealth games, Splinter Cell series being my favorite. As far as I can recall, crouching was primarily for line of sight and not a prerequisite to successfully approach an enemy's back, but it does makes sense that if you "run" behind an enemy, they should turn around; hell, I would. Stealth games are (ideally) slow by nature; they're about being methodical and calculated; you're not supposed to know where every enemy and/or hazard is, so it's prudent to take one's time (moving slowly) and mitigate any chance of being seen or heard (crouching.)

Crouching is more meant to visually show the intent to walk carefully rather than being about lowering your height, so in games like say, Skyrim or some stealth game its to make it clear that while yeah, some of it is to be a smaller thing to see, that they are walking more carefully.

I could take it or leave it honestly. I do like how in Elder Scrolls Online, crouching just lets -you- know how stealthy you are. You dont actually need to crouched to steal though, but you might not know if you're being seen.

And there is Hitman which doesnt have crouched stealth either.

Ehh they're fine, yeah they make you walk slow but one of the main aspects of stealth games is patience so it does it job.

Eh, crouching in stealth games in inconsequential, as stealth is bad regardless.

It's only polite to crouch if you're intending on ruining someone's paid stroll patrol. How else are you supposed to hide in a bush or behind a crate anyway? Plus you can feel like a cute lil panther.

Exception for The Evil Within. Within all due respect, that particular crouch can go fuck itself.

In game terms it does make sense in the majority of cases. Ok, you can argue that when pickpocketing someone in a busy city street the main thing is nonchalance, looking normal and behaving like everyone else. But when entering an enemy military facility, dressed in gear that identifies you as a member of the opposing faction, more often than not weilding weapons that differ from those of the enemy army, any sighting will give you away - therefore a slow movement speed and an ability to remain hidden behind partial (conveniently waist-high) walls is invariably a plus.

I don't mind it. It's not realistic, but it serves to communicate that "this is the hard-to-detect movement mode".

Walking upright (not running) should be just as quiet as crouch-walking though.

Sounds like your issue is more with guard's reactions to running up behind them. Fair enough if you're quick you should be able to run up and disable an enemy if they're alone and outside earshot of their comrades.

Personally I'm not a fan of sprinting in shooters- always seemed like a needless complication when older shooters just had you move that fast to begin with, with the new added detriment of your gun being unavailable while sprinting.

I've had to concede though that it's not so commonplace that the ability to trade offensive capability for speed seems standard now and it's something I'll just have to accept. With crouching, as long as you can still move faster than the enemy can walk, it's a similar risk vs reward game mechanic that's probably here to stay.

If crouching is just crouching, and that's the only way you can be undetected, then yeah it's a little annoying. Especially if it hiders your movement speed to the point where it's really hard to creep up on someone just walking at normal / patrol pace.

I prefer the 'stealth' mode walk, where it's just kind of hunched over, still quick heel-to-toeing, and automatically kind of staying under cover that you are walking against. For example, stop behind a barrel, and your character would kneel on one knee, staying under a low wall/window, and he/she would just stay a bit below it.

But yeah, I agree with everyone here that walking and crouching should make nearly the same amount of noise. Stealth games never take into account the material of the soles of your shoes anyway (just what you're stepping on, if anything).

Crouching isn't really needed for a stealth game. Crouching is more useful in gunfights to lower recoil or correct aim than it is for actual stealth. If the game is 1st-person, leaning is far more important than crouch. It's always hilarious that people in online shooters think crouch walking makes you less noticeable; human vision great at noticing movement of any kind and hitting a slow moving ball (crouch walking) is so much easier than hitting a fast moving stick (sprinting).

I have actually kind of enjoyed the mechanic as long as it actually works, If it actually allows you not to be detected. Also if it adds any type of tension into the game I am for it. Though it can feel more like a added trope when it clearly is not balanced right.

JohnnyDelRay:
If crouching is just crouching, and that's the only way you can be undetected, then yeah it's a little annoying. Especially if it hiders your movement speed to the point where it's really hard to creep up on someone just walking at normal / patrol pace.

I prefer the 'stealth' mode walk, where it's just kind of hunched over, still quick heel-to-toeing, and automatically kind of staying under cover that you are walking against. For example, stop behind a barrel, and your character would kneel on one knee, staying under a low wall/window, and he/she would just stay a bit below it.

But yeah, I agree with everyone here that walking and crouching should make nearly the same amount of noise. Stealth games never take into account the material of the soles of your shoes anyway (just what you're stepping on, if anything).

I wanna play a game where you're barefoot. Maybe a stealth game. Maybe an exploration game. Not sure why. I just do. I don't like auto-crouching, but I do like when characters automatically hunch over and bend their knees just slightly before their position is revealed, with almost no decrease in movement speed. It saves a button. I agree that a full run should make you audible.

Ezekiel:

JohnnyDelRay:
If crouching is just crouching, and that's the only way you can be undetected, then yeah it's a little annoying. Especially if it hiders your movement speed to the point where it's really hard to creep up on someone just walking at normal / patrol pace.

I prefer the 'stealth' mode walk, where it's just kind of hunched over, still quick heel-to-toeing, and automatically kind of staying under cover that you are walking against. For example, stop behind a barrel, and your character would kneel on one knee, staying under a low wall/window, and he/she would just stay a bit below it.

But yeah, I agree with everyone here that walking and crouching should make nearly the same amount of noise. Stealth games never take into account the material of the soles of your shoes anyway (just what you're stepping on, if anything).

I wanna play a game where you're barefoot. Maybe a stealth game. Maybe an exploration game. Not sure why. I just do. I don't like auto-crouching, but I do like when characters automatically hunch over and bend their knees just slightly before their position is revealed, with almost no decrease in movement speed. It saves a button. I agree that a full run should make you audible.

I feel like I've played some games like that. Maybe a prison escape scene, at the very least, maybe it was the Witcher 2. Not exactly a stealth game, though.

Edit: I think MGSV took your movement speed into account, not just by sound but by sight (according to the loadout info, the suits I was wearing were pretty quiet anyway)
I get you on the auto-crouching though, actually auto-anything can be a real bitch if not implemented and tested properly. Auto-vaulting when running is good, auto-stick-to-cover can result in instant death.

Depending on the surface you're running on, and what your character is carrying, it should be possible to make full-sprint inaudible by a barefoot character. You can try it yourself. What full-sprint *should* do, however, is make you more easily visible from longer distances, or your shadow more likely to give you away, because flickering/fast movements are very likely to trigger someone's peripheral vision.

Yes, I like it.

Its just a visual shorthand, frankly I prefer it to... a persistent glowing orange bar saying "You are in stealth mode" somewhere on the screen (or whatever the alternative would be.) Treat, say... running the same way. People would gripe if the character just moved further but had the same walk animation in "run" mode. Changing the character's stride is a visual cue letting you know you are running. Crouching is the same... just for sneaking.

Sometimes.

I hate to do it in the likes of Skyrim, where you have to do it for extended periods of time in a game that clearly isn't well enough designed to handle it properly.

I like it in games that have specifically been built as stealth games, so distances, locations and enemies are placed in a way to work with people who are crouch walking a lot.

I think games have started to sensibly move on from it though. Both the new Thief and Dishonored introduce stealthy ways of moving quickly, which only serves to make the game more fun, by widening out areas and by encouraging risky actions using your cool fast powers.

I'm not fond of it.
Have you tried sneaking in real life? You might find that it's actually more awkward to sneak while crouched than just standing.
And then there's Bethesda games, where I functionally end up playing a dwarf since I sneak everywhere. I'd rather have a seperate toggle for sneaking - that way, I can at least look over the damn counters/tables/low-walls without having to jump up on them.

No, absolutely not. It's the kind of concept that works better as an interesting moment of mechanical joy when you just wanna crouch behind a person and mess about than actual taken seriously as your games primary silent and low profile option.

I like it. It is a clear indication of your intention when approaching someone.

At least it is better than "push the joystick slightly to walk, harder to run... ohh, you push it more than 0,4 of the way forward, I guess you wanted to headbutt this guard on the back".

Dara pretty much sums up crouch for me. It's kind of silly. I don't really care about it, though.

Ezekiel:

JohnnyDelRay:
If crouching is just crouching, and that's the only way you can be undetected, then yeah it's a little annoying. Especially if it hiders your movement speed to the point where it's really hard to creep up on someone just walking at normal / patrol pace.

I prefer the 'stealth' mode walk, where it's just kind of hunched over, still quick heel-to-toeing, and automatically kind of staying under cover that you are walking against. For example, stop behind a barrel, and your character would kneel on one knee, staying under a low wall/window, and he/she would just stay a bit below it.

But yeah, I agree with everyone here that walking and crouching should make nearly the same amount of noise. Stealth games never take into account the material of the soles of your shoes anyway (just what you're stepping on, if anything).

I wanna play a game where you're barefoot. Maybe a stealth game. Maybe an exploration game. Not sure why. I just do. I don't like auto-crouching, but I do like when characters automatically hunch over and bend their knees just slightly before their position is revealed, with almost no decrease in movement speed. It saves a button. I agree that a full run should make you audible.

Yeah, I love how this is implemented in GTA V. Especially in first person. The way your perception of sound is altered in sneak mode is particularly cool. I'd prefer this take overall myself if anything so that I can enjoy an unobstructed view of my surroundings without the danger of being alerted.

ZombieProof:

Ezekiel:

JohnnyDelRay:
If crouching is just crouching, and that's the only way you can be undetected, then yeah it's a little annoying. Especially if it hiders your movement speed to the point where it's really hard to creep up on someone just walking at normal / patrol pace.

I prefer the 'stealth' mode walk, where it's just kind of hunched over, still quick heel-to-toeing, and automatically kind of staying under cover that you are walking against. For example, stop behind a barrel, and your character would kneel on one knee, staying under a low wall/window, and he/she would just stay a bit below it.

But yeah, I agree with everyone here that walking and crouching should make nearly the same amount of noise. Stealth games never take into account the material of the soles of your shoes anyway (just what you're stepping on, if anything).

I wanna play a game where you're barefoot. Maybe a stealth game. Maybe an exploration game. Not sure why. I just do. I don't like auto-crouching, but I do like when characters automatically hunch over and bend their knees just slightly before their position is revealed, with almost no decrease in movement speed. It saves a button. I agree that a full run should make you audible.

Yeah, I love how this is implemented in GTA V. Especially in first person. The way your perception of sound is altered in sneak mode is particularly cool. I'd prefer this take overall myself if anything so that I can enjoy an unobstructed view of my surroundings without the danger of being alerted.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1020706-Is-Boardwalk-Empire-worth-watching#24123393

Nice to see you again. I thought you left because of the spambots. The stealth stance in GTA V is fine, but it's a button for something that you almost never use. I don't remember the audio changing. Will have to check that out.

Ezekiel:
I don't find it fun. It's too slow. In MGS1 and 2, you could just run up behind enemies. Unless there was a puddle or cracked glass on the floor. I liked that. Then Splinter Cell came out and the later MGS games had enemies turn around when you ran behind them. The stalking with the D pad in MGS3 wasn't much fun either. I seem to remember that you stalked slower than the enemies walked. In reality, crouching does not muffle your footsteps. I think crouching should be used more for line of sight, like if there's a low object you can hide behind.

In reality no, crouching doesn't muffle your steps. What it does do is give you more control over your stepping, so you can more softly place your footing. By keeping your weight on the planted foot while shifting forward, which when you are moving to control your sound, you go slower. This has the side-effect of making you crouch. Plus, being lower gives you a lower profile, and thus less likely to be spotted in someone's peripheral vision, or among various objects and terrain.

So there is some logic behind the "crouch=stealth mode" in gaming, though I doubt they really thought about it that much. I think it was mostly just to give a player a very clear indicator that they were in/out of stealth mode, by the body posture of the avatar (3rd person), or by the elevation of POV for 1st person.

Ezekiel:

ZombieProof:

Ezekiel:
I wanna play a game where you're barefoot. Maybe a stealth game. Maybe an exploration game. Not sure why. I just do. I don't like auto-crouching, but I do like when characters automatically hunch over and bend their knees just slightly before their position is revealed, with almost no decrease in movement speed. It saves a button. I agree that a full run should make you audible.

Yeah, I love how this is implemented in GTA V. Especially in first person. The way your perception of sound is altered in sneak mode is particularly cool. I'd prefer this take overall myself if anything so that I can enjoy an unobstructed view of my surroundings without the danger of being alerted.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1020706-Is-Boardwalk-Empire-worth-watching#24123393

Nice to see you again. I thought you left because of the spambots. The stealth stance in GTA V is fine, but it's a button for something that you almost never use. I don't remember the audio changing. Will have to check that out.

As long as it serves it's purpose and makes me less visible for the enemies, sure.

Also:

Kyrian007:
Its just a visual shorthand, frankly I prefer it to... a persistent glowing orange bar saying "You are in stealth mode" somewhere on the screen (or whatever the alternative would be.) Treat, say... running the same way.

This. Just give me a visual in-game hint, that my character is in "stealth mode".

I like it and dont have any issues with it.

It's a thing because otherwise, how do you convey "Stealth" to the player without going the Thief route and making an entire system for noise on every surface and vision based on light and dark and stuff, which is a large money/time sink for development?

I prefer when you don't have to crouch (see the good thief games) to maintain stealth, but as long as the crouch speed is good, or most of your stealthing is vertical (See Stys Shards of DarknesS) then it's acceptable too.

aegix drakan:
It's a thing because otherwise, how do you convey "Stealth" to the player without going the Thief route and making an entire system for noise on every surface and vision based on light and dark and stuff, which is a large money/time sink for development?

Why do you need to? Why can't stealth and action come together organically? Why can't I practice stealth after my cover is already blown? Line of sight and sound should matter even after enemies have been alerted.

JohnnyDelRay:

Ezekiel:

JohnnyDelRay:
If crouching is just crouching, and that's the only way you can be undetected, then yeah it's a little annoying. Especially if it hiders your movement speed to the point where it's really hard to creep up on someone just walking at normal / patrol pace.

I prefer the 'stealth' mode walk, where it's just kind of hunched over, still quick heel-to-toeing, and automatically kind of staying under cover that you are walking against. For example, stop behind a barrel, and your character would kneel on one knee, staying under a low wall/window, and he/she would just stay a bit below it.

But yeah, I agree with everyone here that walking and crouching should make nearly the same amount of noise. Stealth games never take into account the material of the soles of your shoes anyway (just what you're stepping on, if anything).

I wanna play a game where you're barefoot. Maybe a stealth game. Maybe an exploration game. Not sure why. I just do. I don't like auto-crouching, but I do like when characters automatically hunch over and bend their knees just slightly before their position is revealed, with almost no decrease in movement speed. It saves a button. I agree that a full run should make you audible.

I feel like I've played some games like that. Maybe a prison escape scene, at the very least, maybe it was the Witcher 2. Not exactly a stealth game, though.

Edit: I think MGSV took your movement speed into account, not just by sound but by sight (according to the loadout info, the suits I was wearing were pretty quiet anyway)
I get you on the auto-crouching though, actually auto-anything can be a real bitch if not implemented and tested properly. Auto-vaulting when running is good, auto-stick-to-cover can result in instant death.

Depending on the surface you're running on, and what your character is carrying, it should be possible to make full-sprint inaudible by a barefoot character. You can try it yourself. What full-sprint *should* do, however, is make you more easily visible from longer distances, or your shadow more likely to give you away, because flickering/fast movements are very likely to trigger someone's peripheral vision.

Sounds good. Would be neat if surfaces mattered more in stealthy games.

Ezekiel:

aegix drakan:
It's a thing because otherwise, how do you convey "Stealth" to the player without going the Thief route and making an entire system for noise on every surface and vision based on light and dark and stuff, which is a large money/time sink for development?

Why do you need to? Why can't stealth and action come together organically? Why can't I practice stealth after my cover is already blown? Line of sight and sound should matter even after enemies have been alerted.

Didn't I just say?

It's a time/money sink that a lot of people think isn't worth doing unless they're making a stealth game. Whereas a "tap C to enter Stealth mode" button is a lot easier to implement, when making stealth fun is already a difficult task to do proprely. :(

Trust me, I adore games that actually bother to mix stealth and action properly, but I understand why a lot of developers don't put in the effort.

 

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